Squirtleknight is obnoxious obv :012:. - Marth+

[Shaya]

He's better than he was, in over all flow.

But I'm pretty sure a Ken Combo is like [realistically] impossible with the angle fair sends. But the fair allows for more fairs, woot... I guess.

The utilt changes are nice, but I think the base could be reduced in the earlier frame's hitbox (i.e. where it hits from infront of him, iirc frame 6/7; I believe it only does 8% at one frame).

Only other real move changes now I think would be to dash attack... Tip sends backwards at low angle, whilst untippered sends up. Speed? probably nothing too extreme..

 

[GHNeko]

tbh, dash attack would need more hitstun in order for anything to send up to be useful.


Rather than a move that sends up, I'd prefer bair to semi spike. That move's unqiue properties and range are just begging to be turned into a semispike.

 

[RyuReiatsu]

I'd say, make it so that Dair can send the opponent diagonally. Why is his spike so situational anyways?
Also, I'd like to point out that Utilt and Uair have some sort of issue, maybe you all know about it.

Unfortunately, I don't have a capture card, nor do I even know how to run Dolphin emulator...
Anyways so... When you perform Utilt while the opponent is on the ground and behind you, the tip of the sword passes through him without doing anything, is that normal? Same for Uair.

EDIT: By the way, I like Marth at 5 buffers. What about all of you? I've only been able to perform Fair->Uair with that much buffer. Doing Fair that doesn't pressure me in having a perfect timing is at around 3.

 

[GHNeko]

About uair/utilt. Has it been like that? Before the changes?


His dair has always been situational like that. It's more so in Brawl than Melee.

 

[RyuReiatsu]

About uair/utilt. Has it been like that? Before the changes?


His dair has always been situational like that. It's more so in Brawl than Melee.

What do you mean, before the changes? I'm not actually sure of 'when' are you talking about.
I've got 4.1 Plussery's codeset, and I happened to notice that quite a part of the tip wouldn't it.
Hopefully, I might just be fixed in 4.1B, but then again... I don't have the luxury to try it right now. Is it possible to transfer a picture taken with brawl's camera on our computer? I've never taken any.

And, well... many characters have the luxury to spike as they want... (Link's dtilt, ike's dtilt, Ganon's Dair, etc.)*
I wish it had a bit more uses... Just increasing dair's sweetspot would be already awesome.

*Their spikes don't need any spacing as they ALWAYS spike, and before I forget about Captain Falcon too. His dair was changed so it always spiked.

 

[GHNeko]

Okay.

Was it like that in Brawl? I'm thinking its just a general hitbox thing. We havnt changed the hitbox of Utilt or Uair.

 

[RyuReiatsu]

Okay.

Was it like that in Brawl? I'm thinking its just a general hitbox thing. We havnt changed the hitbox of Utilt or Uair.

Yeah, it was in vBrawl too. Which I've never liked, why would a part of the tip not even do the little spark when it hits the opponent? It feels quite stupid. If anybody could address it to Almas or a coder, that'd be so good. Nobody would listen to a newbie like me... since 80% of what I say are out of the blue and not very thought of. But this, I'll show a screenshot of it when I'm able to get access to one of the tvs.

 

[GHNeko]

Well, you do realize, there are plenty of hitboxes that dont make sense in Smash IN GENERAL.

 

[ChaosKnight]

marth is too good know i destroy people with him O.O

 

[VietGeek]

Okay.

Was it like that in Brawl? I'm thinking its just a general hitbox thing. We havnt changed the hitbox of Utilt or Uair.

Hitboxes in Brawl seem more rigged than circular, so for sword characters...often the animation of the sword arc doesn't seem to match the actual hitbox. At least I think it's like that...

Magus...name search please. We need your Deadly Eyes of Perception !

Err...I use 30 buffer on Marth. o_O

Any lower and I might as well let the CPU control my character imo. <_<

marth is too good know i destroy people with him O.O

I'm gonna lol if you lose to a Wario in B+ because you can't go in the red zone lol.

 

[ChaosKnight]

actually honestly i really dont think any character can match up to marth im serious XD

 

[GHNeko]

LOLWUT.

Plenty of characters can stand up against marth. Are you nuts?

 

[VietGeek]

LOLWUT.

Plenty of characters can stand up against marth. Are you nuts?

Ah well, look at his name kind sir.

Also, I would suggest a match-up...but currently the B+ scene is still too small to have any extremely productive discussions. <_<

Eh.

 

[ChaosKnight]

LOLWUT.

Plenty of characters can stand up against marth. Are you nuts?

no im just not bad

seriously marth is too amazing

 

[CountKaiser]

Name these plenty of characters, please.

And don't say MK, I know he's one of them.

 

[GHNeko]

no im just not bad

seriously marth is too amazing

Ill believe it when I see it. :V

Name these plenty of characters, please.

And don't say MK, I know he's one of them.

Falco, Fox, Wolf, Shiek, Snake, Squirtle, Peach, just to name a few. Hell, probably LINK can handle himself against marth now.

 

[ChaosKnight]

Ill believe it when I see it. :V



Falco, Fox, Wolf, Shiek, Snake, Squirtle, Peach, just to name a few. Hell, probably LINK can handle himself against marth now.

idk maybe you guys just need more time with game to actually understand how much marth destroys characters o.0


all those characters you mentioned i can chain grab (it is escapable and not easy to pull off)

 

[GHNeko]

idk maybe you guys just need more time with game to actually understand how much marth destroys characters o.0

Or maybe you just need more time with game to actually understand how much other characters can stand up to marth. :V

all those characters you mentioned i can chain grab (it is escapable and not easy to pull off)

Alot of characters can chaingrab alot of characters and those chaingrabs are escapable and not easy to pull of.

They're all impractical and shouldnt last no more than 2-4 throws. Marth is the same way. I've found CGs with uthrow and fthrow against nearly 60% of the cast, but pretty impractical and should only be done as a mindgame rather than something to rely on.

:V

 

[ChaosKnight]

no ive seen enough from people playing this game that no one knows how to play this game...


you guys need to play more without thinking too much its vbrawl simple as that.... i see videos of so much failure


Plz show me some vids of these so called *good marths*

 

[shanus]

enough my **** is bigger arguments fellas.


Post some vids and analyze them for what you guys are doing wrong.

Though I have to say I agree more with ChaosKnight, Marth is easily one of the best in the game.

 

[GHNeko]

I never said marth isnt one of the best in the game. I just disagree with him when he says no characters can stand up to marth.

He says,

no ive seen enough from people playing this game that no one knows how to play this game...


you guys need to play more without thinking too much its vbrawl simple as that.... i see videos of so much failure

Which basically means no one knows how to play Brawl+ because we keep thinking with a vBrawl mindset, which can be insulting, but really it's flat out wrong.

:V

 

[ChaosKnight]

k guyz i'll have vids of me up soon between me and jceaser and others such as my crewmate boss and other people very soon maybe at the start of the E3 conference

 

[GHNeko]

Alright man. Ill be looking forward to it. Maybe you'll teach us new things. :V

 

[ChaosKnight]

yes marth is fine and tuned very well i think its time to work on the other characters

 

[JCaesar]

Oh **** CockyKnight found his way to the Marth+ thread

Vids of his Marth are uploading on my youtube right now. He can be pretty arrogant but he's just playing around, and he does know what he's talking about.

Neko your list of characters that can stand up to Marth is pretty whack imo... I'd say Marth is probably both Squirtle's and Peach's worst matchup at the moment, and the same probably goes for a space animal or two as well. But like you said, there's just not enough people playing B+ right now to know things like that for sure, and it's gonna be different in every region.

 

[GHNeko]

Ill be watching.

Those characters might not have advantages over Marth, but they matchup is not totally skewed as to which they can't win.

They CAN stand up to Marth. in Brawl+, just because someone is their worst match up doesnt mean that the match up is unwinnable. That's what we're trying to aim for at least. By the end of this, "worst matchups" will probably be 65:35. Maybe 70:30 in very few cases.

Right now, I personally believe Marth is 6:4 with nice chunk of the cast. 55:40 with the some, 65:35 with few and then the rare 60:40 that aren't in Marth's favor.

 

[JCaesar]

Ah I thought you were just trying to list even or better matchups against Marth, which was definitely not the case with Squirtle and Peach. I'm curious though, who do you think has the advantage against Marth (other than maybe MK)?

 

[GHNeko]

Advantage?

Hurr. I'm pretty conservative about match ups atm because of the lack of data and results to back them up. Alot of match ups are based primary off personal opinion and the ability to put 2 and 2 together. :V

I'd have to say Snake for sure. Shiek has the potential to have the slight advantage over marth, but I dont think it will ever be more than 5:5 for Shiek and at most for Marth 55:45, maybe 60:40.

MK is a given.

Wario also has the potential to have an advantage over Marth because Marth can no longer grab release abuse Wario.

Lucario has the potential because of his reduced gimpability because now he can attack out of Up B, making it harder for Marth to punish him, and Lucario can use that to gimp Marth from waaay off the stage. Plus lucario has plenty of disjointed attacks and the aura ability.

Also, Zamus. I dont know why, but something is just telling me to inclue her as well. :V

 

[ChaosKnight]

im sorry mk is not a given maybe 5:5 but not a given lol hes really light in brawl +

 

[Palpi]

Grab release abuse wasn't the only reason marth beat wario. Simply out spaces him in every aspect.

Though apparently it wasn't even that heavily favored accordingly to some warios.

 

[GHNeko]

im sorry mk is not a given maybe 5:5 but not a given lol hes really light in brawl +

MK is a given in the fact he outspaces and outgimps Marth. There is a reason why he's Marth's worst matchup in vBrawl. All the reasons that matter carry over to B+ and with NASL, its easier for MK to edgeguard and gimp Marth.

Grab release abuse wasn't the only reason marth beat wario. Simply out spaces him in every aspect.

True, but I still think Wario could at least go even with Marth. He out damaged him now, can punish and gimp Marth's recovery, has better kill potential and what not. The only issue wario has is getting inside Wall of Fair.

 

[Palpi]

Oh maybe, a lot of top warios say that marth is a winnable match up once understood.

 

[ChaosKnight]

MK is a given in the fact he outspaces and outgimps Marth. There is a reason why he's Marth's worst matchup in vBrawl. All the reasons that matter carry over to B+ and with NASL, its easier for MK to edgeguard and gimp Marth.

even in vBrawl the marths had ways of dealing with him


but from what ive heard of what MK has been tuned down for example tornado ftilt being shorter and dsmash being shorter and such take away alot of how much a threat mk was in vbrawl

also ive heard that they made him lighter which adds even more to why mk wont be the climbing uphill battle it was in vbrawl

and even in Vbrawl good marths know how to keep from getting gimped so easily ...

so i really dont think Mk is a given

 

[GHNeko]

Oh maybe, a lot of top warios say that marth is a winnable match up once understood.

And that was in vBrawl. This is Brawl+ and this is a nerfed Marth. <3

EDIT:

even in vBrawl the marths had ways of dealing with him


but from what ive heard of what MK has been tuned down for example tornado ftilt being shorter and dsmash being shorter and such take away alot of how much a threat mk was in vbrawl

also ive heard that they made him lighter which adds even more to why mk wont be the climbing uphill battle it was in vbrawl

and even in Vbrawl good marths know how to keep from getting gimped so easily ...

so i really dont think Mk is a given

I say MK is a given that he has an advantage over Marth. Even if it's a slight advantage.

The ability to outgimp Marth and recovery from much longer distances with a reach that is generally equal to marths, and longer on a few moves. Higher priority and a smaller hurt box AND NASL give MK the advantage over Marth.

Even if it is a small one, he was one regardless. :V

Also, Those nerfs you mentioned dont matter as much as what I've just mentioned. Also, ftilt hasnt been touched. Dsmash is only weaker, not shorter and its a **** edgeguarding move. IIRC, they didn't make him lighter either, he just dies earlier than vBrawl because he was already light and hitstun + no momentum canceling = shorter life span.

Good Marths still get gimped by Good MKs. V:

It might not happen as often in vBrawl due to the ledge system, but now it will happen more often.

 

[Revven]

Ftilt didn't get shorter range, it was Fair that did.

 

[Palpi]

...You were giving examples of brawl so I did then you said this is brawl+ lol....

 

[GHNeko]

Wait what? I was always talking about Brawl+ I only hinted towards vBrawl about the grab releases.

 

[ChaosKnight]

if this is a nerfed marth then wtf is a buffed one >_>

 

[GHNeko]

Marth was just recently buffed because they overnerfed him, but from the start, they've only nerfed him. SLowly and surely.


But I guess you can call the original B+ Marth before his first nerf a buffed marth. You could main either Marth or Dancing Blade. LOL.

 

[Thunderhorse+]

But I guess you can call the original B+ Marth before his first nerf a buffed marth. You could main either Marth or Dancing Blade. LOL.

I loved maining Dancing Blade way back when! :D

Anyway, more videos of CK's Marth+ to come once my friend finishes uploading the videos to his computer, including two Marth dittos between him and Boss. Good stuff.