Squirtleknight is obnoxious obv :012:. - Marth+

[GHNeko]

fffffffffffffffffff shiek.


Most annoying match up ever, next to MK imo. Simply because of the fact half of the things that worked on marth in Melee, work now.

Since Marth is a floaty character, but not lightweight, he's usually in perfect range for follow ups. IF you get grabbed by shiek, expect 2-3 hits coming after words.

And the same thing cannot be said about Marth. There are things that when you try doing to shiek, she falls just out of your range with good DI. You can combo her well, but not too well.

And with her psuedo-wavedash, being aggressive is not really smart.

You'll have to stay on your toes and generally keep your openings as small as possible.

SHFF Falling Fairs, Dtilts, Jabs, Ftilts, and Dancing blade will seriously be your friend. I wouldnt rely on Dolphin Slash much as a whiffed DS on Shiek will allow her to hand you much more punishment than other characters can give you if you whiff.

Dont forget, she's one of the harder characters to gimp if she recovers smart, and she can gimp you just as, if not HARDER. Add in the fact she can wall jump and cling, AND Scar Jumping is in, and you really have to stay on your toes.

The fact Marth is has a harder time killing now doesnt help either.

I'd say 55:45 Marth, simply because once marth sets up a nice wall to keep her out, she's not getting in and any mistake she makes can be used to rack up damage for kill moves later on such as Nair and Bair.

 

[Metatitan]

the latest version of brawl+ made sheik unfun, all she can do is gimp now, that said, marth is killed pretty badly by gimping. 55:45 marth seems right.

 

[GHNeko]

>_>

Sheik's DACUS and Uair would like to have a word with you.

 

[Metatitan]

dacus isnt that good, and the one i have uair isnt that great a finisher. is it stronger in a newer test one? i got mine from storm earlier today

 

[GHNeko]

DACUS can still be combo'd into when you fight marth. And Uair works rediciously on stages with mid-low ceilings like WW and Battle field due to the platforms.

But it doesnt even matter because she can still gimp the **** out of marth. Needles, Tethers, Bair, Fair. Its silly.

 

[VietGeek]

GHNeko, I'd have to disagree.

Half of the things that worked in Melee work because with her speed and dash attack, she could go inside your range then continuously rack damage then kill.

If you play defensive, you're going to get ***** because you're letting her think. Even in vBrawl, defense will get you hurt against a smart Sheik. It's better to try to pressure her with your sword directly, not try to turtle too much, because she has the tools to shut that down.

Agrro doesn't mean recklessly go in and attack for anyone curious.

/thoughts somewhat distorted atm. May edit this later.

 

[storm92]

Yeah, the Sheik-Marth match-up is super annoying.
Her speed gets inside really easily, and I can completely agree on how trying to turtle just kills you here.
It seems Sheik can combo Marth more than Marth can do back, and her gimps are just deadly.

 

[Desire]

Anyone tried the latest version?

They have been nefting marth slowy.
It's a pain.

 

[VietGeek]

Anyone tried the latest version?

They have been attempting to balance the game slowly.
It's a pain.

Yeah it's quite sad actually. Too bad you're not suppose to discuss nerfs/buffs.

 

[goodoldganon]

I'm looking for a Marth main who is somewhat experienced with coding (more specifically the frame and hitbox codes) and is willing to help me with a side project. I won't discuss it here so just send me a PM.

Sorry to spam this thread but at least it's a free bump...

 

[ChronoTrigga]

I'm no expert with him, but the time I have spent with him just makes me say wow. Getting used to his spacing game is a little harder than in vBrawl IMO because the game is just so much faster, but that is just something that takes practice.
Just so much range... If he can keep you out of his blindspot than Marth is just a wall of range and disjointed hitboxes. Once you get him above you though, he can't do much with his Dair, and is just stuck until he gets an opening.
Marth in B+ is one of the reasons I hate G&W in B+. That's how good he is basically.
He doesn't have the most amazing combos, but that doesn't say he is lacking in any sense. Your sig is a great example

His recovery still sucks though... Really badly.

And this is the scariest Marth texture I have ever seen. And my friend refuses to play as any other Marth.

Is that a Kefka skin? That's badass if it is.

 

[SpookyGhost]

It is, in fact, Kefka.
The texture is brilliant >_>. There are little Kefka sprites on the sheath of the sword.

 

[ChronoTrigga]

It is, in fact, Kefka.
The texture is brilliant >_>. There are little Kefka sprites on the sheath of the sword.

Best skin IMO for any character.

 

[Yingyay]

Yeah, the Sheik-Marth match-up is super annoying.
Her speed gets inside really easily, and I can completely agree on how trying to turtle just kills you here.
It seems Sheik can combo Marth more than Marth can do back, and her gimps are just deadly.

O_O I see it the other way being a Sheik main.
Im constantly being cautious of counter and fair.
You approach the wrong way and BOOM tipper smash death at 40 off the edge.

 

[GHNeko]

That is if we land a tipper. Any other tipper one kill til high mid percents.

 

[shanus]

So, right now we nerfed the damage output for fair, uair, and bair (KB readjusted for bair so it hits for the same KB as bfore), and lowered the nerf on the upB so it isnt quite as significant as before.

The lower damage output on fair and uair will allow for more combos, and hopefully stimulate more aggression from marth players. Are you guys satisfied with the current fair launch angles?

 

[ChaosKnight]

im not satisfied with the such drastic nerf to DB but i can deal with it if you can make it a little harder for them to DI out of it .... <_<

and is the knockback of Fair Upair and Bair still good??? im fine with damage output being lowered

 

[Kuga]

Fair and Uair have less damage and KB (Uair better for combos,same with Fair)
Bair have less damage,but still have the same KB.
Right?

 

[Arkaether]

I must say that DB's down variation being punishable on hit makes me somewhat unhappy.

 

[GHNeko]

im not satisfied with the such drastic nerf to DB but i can deal with it if you can make it a little harder for them to DI out of it .... <_<

and is the knockback of Fair Upair and Bair still good??? im fine with damage output being lowered

Uair, Bair, and Nair have less damage. Bair has increase KB Growth, but the Base KB has not been risen, so it doesnt send far at low percents, and sends normally pre-nerf at higher percents.

DB is just gay like that when its nerfed. DB 4 Down is just unsafe as hell now.

Fair and Uair have less damage and KB (Uair better for combos,same with Fair)
Bair have less damage,but still have the same KB.
Right?

^ Look up.

I must say that DB's down variation being punishable on hit makes me somewhat unhappy.

Unfortunately, thats how it is.

 

[Kuga]

Uair, Bair, and Nair have less damage. Bair has increase KB Growth, but the Base KB has not been risen, so it doesnt send far at low percents, and sends normally pre-nerf at higher percents.

Thanks for explanation,Neko

 

[VietGeek]

Hmm, does this mean...more uair juggling?

NEKO, DOES IT? DOES IT? MY FANBOYISM OMG

Also, DB looks pretty gay now that I've seen Cape tech the arguably safest ending - neutral.

Hmm....

 

[Kuga]

Uair juggling on Spacies like Melee? :D

 

[GHNeko]

Uair juggling is lol. But you can only juggle with the untipped, the tipped version was used for killing off the top.

I wish they didnt touch the tipped version, cuz if you tip with uair now, it will probably send to far away. <_>

 

[VietGeek]

Uair juggling is lol. But you can only juggle with the untipped, the tipped version was used for killing off the top.

I wish they didnt touch the tipped version, cuz if you tip with uair now, it will probably send to fair away. <_>

I am now EXTREMELY sad.

Like I can't even sleep on this one.

Yes, this is the same person who wasn't terribly unhappy with the DS and DB nerfs lol.

Ah well, I'll have to see it myself before I can say anymore.

 

[GHNeko]

I understand the nerfing to allow for combos, but when you nerf a move used to kill and not to combo, its just silly.

That's why they increased the KBG (Not the BKB) of bair, because it has no combo potential, just like a tipped uair.

 

[VietGeek]

So...does it combo better? Or does it combo even worse AND doesn't kill?

Because I actually use tipped uairs in this game for juggles, most because it has that lol hitstun from Melee and scares the **** out of people.

 

[GHNeko]

Lowered damage output = Lowered BKB/KBG = Lower Kill Potential + HIgher combo ability.

But if it has too much KB due to the fact its a tipper, it wont combo that well. More KB = High Kill Potential + Lower Combo Ability.

The wrong mix of that is just bad. From what I tried, Untipped > Tipped by a long shot. :/

 

[shanus]

so what do you want for the tipped uair, the old classic knockback for it while the untipped is more comboable?

Cuz right now, untipped and tipped both took lower damage making both more comboable no matter what. Their BKB and KBG were untouched meaning that the KBG is at about 85% of its former power.

Also DB 4th hit will be fixed.

 

[VietGeek]

so what do you want for the tipped uair, the old classic knockback for it while the untipped is more comboable?

Also DB 4th hit will be fixed.

Eh, I guess that would work, but I currently don't mind as much because I realized you guys nerfed nair too.

IDK about any other Marth user, but nair is mostly a defensive move. Marth rises too high (this is not a hint to change Marth's physic) in Brawl for it to be the magical approach it was in Melee, and Nair seems to be angled higher by default too. Marth sports it as his only semi-safe kill move in vBrawl. So I have mixed feelings that atm it doesn't seem to have that role anymore from what I'm reading. This is sorta a new game, but I can't help but think this will produce the same problems in Melee where Marth can't kill worth sh*t after a certain percent because he lacks a fast, last-ditch KO move. Maybe bair was tweaked to prevent that from happening, I think so, but my point still stands.

I understand you're trying to make him more aggro, but nair was okay, maybe it needed to be toned down a bit, just a bit.

Maybe tone down the other tipper hitboxes but keep the very last tip hitbox (on like frame 19 or something) at normal killing strength. It's mainly a way to finish strings and I'm going to assume is the most common way to kill people since aside from edgeguards, Marth can't really link into his grounded kill moves unless they DI wrong or they happen to be at a percentage range where that happens. And usually that doesn't even net a kill, since this is the game of ridiculously good recoveries and multiple airdodges.

IDK, I have no issues nerfing Marth atm because he does seem a little overpowering despite his severe weaknesses that everyone's exposed since Melee. But I'm also a little skeptical of reinventing Brawl Marth to add a little Melee in him since this is a whole new game based on a game engine that doesn't even let him do all the borderline broken things he did in Melee.

Skepticism aside, I'm not passing final judgment on this until I try it out myself for a week or so. It would be immature for me to prematurely disapprove of it since this is all currently theory and not the real field testing.

 

[shanus]

We didnt touch nair, Neko was wrong to say it.

Current New changelist for marth:

-Marth Fair: hb1: 8 dmg from 10dmg; hb2: 11dmg from 13dmg; Angle on sweetspot hit changed to 50 from 20, Angle on flub at 35 from 20
-Marth Bair: hb1: 9 dmg from 11dmg KBG 104 from 85; hb2: 12dmg from 14dmg, KBG 105 from 90
-Marth Uair: hb1: 8 dmg from 10dmg; hb2: 11dmg from 13dmg
-Marth UpB 13 damage -> 10 damage, angle 20 to 35º
-Marth downB 4th down hit fixed


Edit: Viet, hop on the IRC, we'll chat there since I have TL downsmash made as well (brb testing)

 

[GHNeko]

fffff. I can't read late at night.

God **** it. I need to start double checking what I post. =_=

 

[Shaya]

I'm a bit skeptical about Marth's Brawl+ horizontal combo ability. He strings uair juggles quite well.

However he can't really string aerials like fair or nair together easily (hell for the game being 'faster', I find it extremely more easy to string fair combos in vBrawl than what Marth is now... It's hard to describe...) If changing the angles of Marth's fair helps in this regard than I'm glad... But atm Marth can barely do two fairs in one short hop, and most of his strings in vBrawl are fair1, "read", fair2, ff'd follow up. Something not feasible as his fall speed is too drastic for two fairs, and his full hop is too steep.

However, I think that whilst nerfing db, and damage on other moves, Marth could do with a boost in speed for his up tilt, and have his dash attack became a useful combo starter for horizontal aerial strings.

As much as I enjoy Marth in both vBrawl and Melee, he honestly feels so much... less at the moment... even with the unbelievable juggle potential and dancing blade... he feels overly shallow.

 

[GHNeko]

Wait. People still try to do 2 fairs in a single SH?

Whuuuut. How silly.

 

[Shaya]

Arr, okay.

So people who [like to] represent brawl+ enjoy arguing that removing character options is a good and healthy thing?

Fantastic.

 

[GHNeko]

Lol Joking.

 

[Shaya]

Gimme my sh double fair, with some time inbetween to bait a god **** air dodge to boot ~_~.

 

[proteininja]

Shaya, my best advice for you is to:
1. go to the IRC.
2. Talk to people.
3. Ask questions.
4. Play Brawl+.
5. Repeat Step 4 because its awesome.
6. Ask more questions on the IRC.
and then and only then...
Come to the forums and post your educated opinion.

There are good reasons for the things you are talking about, but its better when you discover it for yourself than when some dude yells it at you.

 

[GHNeko]

Gimme my sh double fair, with some time inbetween to bait a god **** air dodge to boot ~_~.

Wait wut. Why bait when you can keep swatting away with hitstun.

 

[shanus]

Shaya the next set should enhance his combo options at the cost of damage.