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[thexsunrosered]

Ye, that SHOULD be its name.

o geez

o geez

 

[Dre89]

This will sound stupid, but side b- taunt could be interesting.

If you do it once or twice, you could condition them into a GUA, which you then punish.

 

[Dumbfire]

Except for that the opponent can even punish it when they roll away.

 

[Dre89]

True, but I just assumed they'll instinctively just GUA you, because they may not have the composure to calculate that they can punish after a roll.

Then again, you could just say you've conditioned a roll.

 

[Z1GMA]

Up+b OoS is one of our better OoS-options.

The fact that ppl can hit us out of it isn't always that bad.

Think of it as "Trading hits".

Up+b'ing someone who's aeiral deals 8% to you in return,
is pretty much the same as dealing 3% damage to them via a "Get off of me-move".
(Our up+b deals 11% damage.)

Snake and some other characters can't even hit us out of up+b.

 

[Exalted]

Has anyone ever tried doing turn-around Fairs? Works wonders for mindgames.

 

[Ganonsburg]

Not that it really has any practical use, but something cool that I noticed is that if Ganon is landing on a spring, and inputs Down + B as he lands on the spring, it will have the same effect as FoG...except it'll be twice as high because you jump from the spring and THEN FoG.

(Sorry for the bump....)

 

[Exalted]

If you Jab or Dtilt after a Spotdodge, you'll slide slightly forward. If you turn around after a Spotdodge, you'll slide backwards instead.

Try "Banana-Choking" with Wario's tyres or Peach's Turnips.

 

[Z1GMA]

Not that it really has any practical use, but something cool that I noticed is that if Ganon is landing on a spring, and inputs Down + B as he lands on the spring, it will have the same effect as FoG...except it'll be twice as high because you jump from the spring and THEN FoG.
I didn't know that.
Sounds hilarious.

(Sorry for the bump....)
This thread likes getting bumped.

_______________

 

[Terodactyl Yelnats]

Ganon can platform cancel from an absurd distance, you can even land on the platform from the double jump after a wizkick cancel.

This is amazing for mindgames.

 

[Sovereign]

Ganon can platform cancel from an absurd distance, you can even land on the platform from the double jump after a wizkick cancel.

This is amazing for mindgames.

Wizkick to another wizkick, anybody?

 

[Z1GMA]

Wizkick to another wizkick, anybody?

Take the lead -> Stall for time with the help of FoG, ftw.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Up-smash is still a horrible move, but I've been trying hard to implement it. So here's what I believe are the best uses for U-smash.

It's somewhat matchup specific in that it's better if your opponent has bad grab range, but against people who are conditioned to spotdodge in anticipation of a dashgrab (you know what to do if they roll. =P), Up-smash will usually hit anyone who happens to spotdodge in that exact situation. The move is usually safe if they happen to spotdodge it on reaction, so you can usually roll away if it whiffs. Also if they actually block the Up-smash, it's completely safe as well, which is one significant advantage it has over D-air, the latter of which is usually more easily shieldgrabbed (starts up very slightly slower as well). This is especially good to know in the Ganon ditto obviously.

Up-smash out of shield is verrry situational, but applicable in some situations where someone uses a massively unsafe rushdown attack and you block it (Ganon's wizkick is one example, depending on spacing Snake's DA, Ike's DA). Also you can Up-smash out of shield against most ledge attacks.

The move also has utility as a low poke bait, in that Ganon leans back and raises his front foot, which sorta can be used to dodge certain moves and then punish. But generally I'd rather do reverse D-smashes for baiting pokes, especially aerial pokes.

 

[Z1GMA]

Don't forget the rediculous Frame Advantage it gives on hit at low %'s.

 

[Breezy]

I find Usmash a great OoS punisher against lucario. Doesn't even necessarily have to be a punisher. I've landed quite a few kills on Lucarios who are hungry for a string starting with a fair.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Oh yeah and U-smash is awesome in teams. I mean the hitbox is normally lame, but for randomly catching someone who gets knocked your way, U-smash's high reaching and low lag hitbox is pretty awesome.

 

[DLA]

Usmash is my favorite move to combo with out of my opponent's throw. A good portion of the cast has at least one throw that launches the opponent at a perfect height to get sweetspotted by Usmash. Depending on how long you charge it, it can kill at 50-60% or so. Not to mention that it's pretty safe due to the crazy IASA frames.

 

[Exalted]

Usmash really has some untapped potential, imo.

 

[A2ZOMG]

When I have more free time, I'm going to compile some data on option limit techchases.

What I mean here is to my understanding, Ganon's techchases, while not as reliable as they were in Melee, do have the ability to cover multiple getup options if you execute them on the correct frames.

For example, I'm fairly certain that autocancel aerial -> DA is capable of successfully covering both the inward roll and the getup attack done correctly.

Some numbers for Ganon's getup options (not factoring the 8 frame advantage we inherently have from Flame Choking Ganon):
DownAttackU: Vulnerable frames 30-49
DownForwardU: Vulnerable frames 24-35

There are 25 frames between the end of vulnerability from wakeup attack and the first vulnerability frame of inward roll. Since iDA hits on frame 10, if you were to hit Ganon's inward roll on frame 24 of his wakeup, you would then need to space a SH autocancel within 13 frames of landing. Then adding 2 frames of landing lag totaling 15 lag frames from doing an aerial, this would give you enough advantage time to buffer iDA into a guaranteed punish.

Ways you can create 15 frame cooldown autocanceled aerials:

Hitting with B-air on any of its active frames and autocanceling on frame 22-23 of the animation can result in anywhere from a 12-15 frame autocancel.

Hitting with frames 19-21 of autocanceled D-air can result in a 13-15 frame autocancel.

Tipman U-air autocanceled on frames 25-27 can result in a 11-15 frame autocancel.

If only Ganon was slightly faster, then these techchases would be much easier to do, but at any rate, I strongly believe that with enough research, we can make Ganon's techchasing a little less about knowing the opponent, and just a little more about something that can be executed consistently with skill.

 

[Z1GMA]

When I have more free time, I'm going to compile some data on option limit techchases.

What I mean here is to my understanding, Ganon's techchases, while not as reliable as they were in Melee, do have the ability to cover multiple getup options if you execute them on the correct frames.

For example, I'm fairly certain that autocancel aerial -> DA is capable of successfully covering both the inward roll and the getup attack done correctly.

Some numbers for Ganon's getup options (not factoring the 8 frame advantage we inherently have from Flame Choking Ganon):
DownAttackU: Vulnerable frames 30-49
DownForwardU: Vulnerable frames 24-35

There are 25 frames between the end of vulnerability from wakeup attack and the first vulnerability frame of inward roll. Since iDA hits on frame 10, if you were to hit Ganon's inward roll on frame 24 of his wakeup, you would then need to space a SH autocancel within 13 frames of landing. Then adding 2 frames of landing lag totaling 15 lag frames from doing an aerial, this would give you enough advantage time to buffer iDA into a guaranteed punish.

Ways you can create 15 frame cooldown autocanceled aerials:

Hitting with B-air on any of its active frames and autocanceling on frame 22-23 of the animation can result in anywhere from a 12-15 frame autocancel.

Hitting with frames 19-21 of autocanceled D-air can result in a 13-15 frame autocancel.

Tipman U-air autocanceled on frames 25-27 can result in a 11-15 frame autocancel.

If only Ganon was slightly faster, then these techchases would be much easier to do, but at any rate, I strongly believe that with enough research, we can make Ganon's techchasing a little less about knowing the opponent, and just a little more about something that can be executed consistently with skill.

Sounds awesome.
Start with Charizard, lmao.

 

[A2ZOMG]

On further inspection, the main differences between getup frames is the properties of getup attacks (they end on the same frame though), and the roll distances, which is probably one of the critical factors in option limit techchases.

Either way once I have time to sit down and test it on a wii, I'll get a list of ways to cover multiple options.

 

[Z1GMA]

In Dittos I use to:

Gerudo -> buffered iDA -> buffered Grab.

It covers:
Doing nothing
GUA
Backroll (if they don't buffer a spotdoge)

It is an extremely effective formula Vs Lucario, and semi-effective vs Marth.
Not sure about Falco, though ;\

 

[Z1GMA]

Ganon and Ness and Ice Climbers are the only characters in the game that can garantuee an easy kill from a grab at like 95% ~ 110%.

 

[Tonsana]

Ganon and Ness and Ice Climbers are the only characters in the game that can garantuee an easy kill from a grab at like 95% ~ 110%.

Whut abot Olimar?

 

[Z1GMA]

I guess he can, too.
But doesn't he need to switch to a purple Pikmin for that?

 

[-LzR-]

Ganon is the only character in the game who can't grab.

 

[Z1GMA]

Ganon is the only character in the game who can't grab.

He has 6 different kinds of grabs.
Most characters have 3.

But, what I'm refering too, which should be obvious, is the grounded Gerudo.

 

[-LzR-]

That is a command grab! Not a legit grab.

Let's get stupid and say Bowser can kill at 0% with his grab

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Ah, but can Bowser kill at 0% and lose the match as well?

I thought so.

 

[Z1GMA]

That is a command grab! Not a legit grab.

Doesn't take away the fact that it can lead to a early kill... :|

 

[A2ZOMG]

Speaking of Flame Choke, I really want to see more B reverse Flame Chokes from everyone. It's an alternative to pivot grabbing.

Also the more I use U-throw, the more I like it, just because it's actually really easy for Ganondorf to trap most landings since every character for the most part has to respect Ganon's U-air when they're above Ganon. D-throw loses use when people DI away, and Ganon's side throws don't have enough knockback to kill most of the time.

Most of the time if you see someone airdodge towards the ground, you can either Flame Choke, Wizkick, or DA on reaction. If there is anything Ganon is good at, he has GREAT land traps.

With that in perspective, the main thing you need to implement good land traps is just to be able to stay under your opponent, so that's why U-throw is good. Pretty much regardless of DI, they'll be put above you, and with a few smart reads and reactions, punishing their landing for free damage is usually easy for Ganon.

 

[Makke]

...............

 

[Z1GMA]

Flame Choke is sometimes too slow to Landchase Wario.
Use Wizkick to make sure that pest doesn't reach the ground.

 

[Mystu82]

flame choke seems a bit worse in the air it can be easliy air dodge puttin a disadvantge its safer on the ground if you know how to use it

 

[Exalted]

There's also more lag at the end of it, so you can't do follow-ups ;[

 

[Breezy]

Platform canceling.

Learn it, use it, love it.

 

[Exalted]

I've never learned exactly what people mean by "platform cancelling".

 

[Terodactyl Yelnats]

Platform canceling.

Learn it, use it, love it.

Wizkick cancel to Platform cancel. Best Ganon mindgame ever.

 

[DLA]

Speaking of Flame Choke, I really want to see more B reverse Flame Chokes from everyone. It's an alternative to pivot grabbing.

Also the more I use U-throw, the more I like it, just because it's actually really easy for Ganondorf to trap most landings since every character for the most part has to respect Ganon's U-air when they're above Ganon. D-throw loses use when people DI away, and Ganon's side throws don't have enough knockback to kill most of the time.

Most of the time if you see someone airdodge towards the ground, you can either Flame Choke, Wizkick, or DA on reaction. If there is anything Ganon is good at, he has GREAT land traps.

With that in perspective, the main thing you need to implement good land traps is just to be able to stay under your opponent, so that's why U-throw is good. Pretty much regardless of DI, they'll be put above you, and with a few smart reads and reactions, punishing their landing for free damage is usually easy for Ganon.

The point of Bthrow and Fthrow is to get the opponent offstage. If the opponent is edgeguardable (read: not meta knight), then your goal should always be to get your opponent offstage.

Though if your throws can't set up an edgeguard in a particular position, then I can see the value of Uthrow. I usually just Fthrow though, for the 13%.

 

[Noobicidal]

I've never learned exactly what people mean by "platform cancelling".

When characters jump at certain heights through the bottom of a platform, they'll "snap" to it, which allows a character to do any move instantly after the snap. Snakes sometimes abuse grab releases to platform canceled regrabs for example.