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[Dumbfire]

Do you like, namesearch Falcon? lol

 

[Forever Forgotten]

Cancelled 'Foot

Yeah, I don't know if this is in this thread or not, but still...

If you jump and immediately use Wizard's Foot, it creates a short-ranged shockwave dealing 8% and decent knockback. Some people would disagree and say that this is a useless technique and that it shouldn't be used in tournaments, but I disagree with their disagreeing, so here's a list of pros and cons to it's use:

Pros:
1. VERY low start-up lag
2. Knockback could help Ganon set up another attack

Cons:
1. Moderate ending lag
2. Does only 8%

So, while it doesn't have too much KO potential, it has some sort of use... I'll keep digging.

Here's my thread on it:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=297479

 

[Vermanubis]

Yeah, that was found back in earlier '08. It's called Murder Quake.

 

[Tonsana]

If snake gets a grab on ganon on, lets say, battlefields platform. He can pretty much Dthrow him all day if he just lays down and regrab after ganons GUA/roll/whatever. The snake player only needs to be quick with his reactiontime.

 

[DLA]

It's true. Snake can also grab release CG Ganondorf, though none of them do it for some reason lmao.

 

[Makke]

.......................

 

[Conspiricy]

Okay, This has probably been mentioned a million times by now, but:

Empty Ftilt > Usmash. Oh god do I love you so.

Thanks to the wall of fury that is Ganon's Testes, anyone recklessley attempting to punish an ftilt will get a lovely surprise!

I know it's done and dusted, but to any relatively new ganon's, it's a lovely little trick to keep in your deadly aresenal.

 

[Noobicidal]

Okay, This has probably been mentioned a million times by now, but:

Empty Ftilt > Usmash. Oh god do I love you so.

Thanks to the wall of fury that is Ganon's Testes, anyone recklessley attempting to punish an ftilt will get a lovely surprise!

I know it's done and dusted, but to any relatively new ganon's, it's a lovely little trick to keep in your deadly aresenal.

I really find the reverse to be much more effective due to up smash's IASA frames.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I hate using F-tilt because the range is crap and it's really not safe on block. I hate U-smash even more just because it has even less horizontal range.

U-smash is semi-legit for punishing spotdodges...kinda. It's a little safer than D-airing in case they shield it, but otherwise I don't really like U-smash in singles. Now in teams, it's a different story.

Ganon users still don't use enough D-smash though. Specifically stop trying to land the first hit unless it's for obvious punishes. Spacing the 2nd hit is where it's at, given you can outrange basically anything with it. In a number of situations, this is superior to spotdodging.

 

[Clai]

Ganon users still don't use enough D-smash though. Specifically stop trying to land the first hit unless it's for obvious punishes. Spacing the 2nd hit is where it's at, given you can outrange basically anything with it. In a number of situations, this is superior to spotdodging.

What exactly is your opponent going to be doing that will allow them to be spaced by the second hit of Ganon's D-smash? Never mind the first hit comes out in 15 frames and has a very obvious audio cue, but having the second hit come around and doing anything? Just no.

The reason Ganon's don't use Dsmash is because it's a horrible move that should never be used. It's worse than using up-B as an attack, at least that beats shields.

 

[A2ZOMG]

You understand how spotdodging works right? D-smash's utility is not far from spotdodging, and it's no worse a commitment than spotdodging -> different move. D-smash specifically is meant to be used as a counter to aerial spacing.

Seriously, you can outrange Marth with D-smash if he commits to a F-air as you D-smash. It's not nearly as unrealistic as it sounds given the HUGE range of the move.

Ganon leans forward right on the beginning of the move, which allows his upper body to instantly avoid some attacks on startup. Ganon's ENTIRE body is transported forward during the first hit until the 2nd hit comes out, which is comparable to spotdodging and doing a tilt, except D-smash hits significantly farther and higher than any tilt Ganon has (besides utilt).

D-smash's ending lag is also not unreasonable to deal with on whiff given the range. The only thing that sucks is just how unsafe it is on block due to dumbness.

Watch my first match against Breezy. Twice I hit him with reverse D-smashes because I bait him into whiffing on my lean during the first hit, and then he gets punished by the 2nd hit.

 

[Clai]

You understand how spotdodging works right?

Completely unnecessary patronizing is completely unnecessary. The only reason Ganon should be spotdodging is to give him some hope of escape from getting ganked in CQC, particularly since his tilts coming out of spotdodge are way too slow for Ganon to counter any sort of CQC play. Otherwise, shielding, rolling, or just getting out of the way are far superior options.

D-smash's utility is not far from spotdodging, and it's no worse a commitment than spotdodging -> different move. D-smash specifically is meant to be used as a counter to aerial spacing.

Seriously, you can outrange Marth with D-smash if he commits to a F-air as you D-smash. It's not nearly as unrealistic as it sounds given the HUGE range of the move.

If your opponent is trying to beat you by spacing you with aerials, he's doing it wrong. The neutral stance is where it's at, and Ganondorf has beyond horrible, miserable play at the neutral zone. All the opponent needs to do is sit around in the neutral zone, wait for Ganon to commit to something, and then penetrate to CQC and completely **** him. D-Smash does not help in this regard.

D-smash's ending lag is also not unreasonable to deal with on whiff given the range. The only thing that sucks is just how unsafe it is on block due to dumbness.

Considering that sheild beats 90% of Ganondorf's options, you want to suggest a move that is completely roflstomped by shield?

Watch my first match against Breezy. Twice I hit him with reverse D-smashes because I bait him into whiffing on my lean during the first hit, and then he gets punished by the 2nd hit.

Any option looks good when you're fighting Ganondorf.

What I'm saying is that while Dsmash may have some utility if you predict a certain move, there are often far better alternatives, especially when the correct way to fight Ganon is inside the neutral zone and using Dsmash is just asking your opponent to come in, bend you sideways and **** you.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Completely unnecessary patronizing is completely unnecessary. The only reason Ganon should be spotdodging is to give him some hope of escape from getting ganked in CQC, particularly since his tilts coming out of spotdodge are way too slow for Ganon to counter any sort of CQC play. Otherwise, shielding, rolling, or just getting out of the way are far superior options.

The way MOST people use spotdodging is to break zoning while avoiding shield push. This is what you can use D-smash for.

If your opponent is trying to beat you by spacing you with aerials, he's doing it wrong. The neutral stance is where it's at, and Ganondorf has beyond horrible, miserable play at the neutral zone. All the opponent needs to do is sit around in the neutral zone, wait for Ganon to commit to something, and then penetrate to CQC and completely **** him. D-Smash does not help in this regard.

I cannot disagree that Ganon's neutral options are the worst in the game and that people should in fact be shieldcamping him to death. The point is however we're still looking for situations where we can at least not let ourselves get completely dominated. And Ganon mains underestimate the fact D-smash does in fact have utility in certain situations.

Considering that sheild beats 90% of Ganondorf's options, you want to suggest a move that is completely roflstomped by shield?

Normally, I wouldn't. But it's Ganon. Nothing you do is safe anyway. Everything you do is a counter, and D-smash actually does have legitimate countering utility in specific situations.

Any option looks good when you're fighting Ganondorf.

What I'm saying is that while Dsmash may have some utility if you predict a certain move, there are often far better alternatives, especially when the correct way to fight Ganon is inside the neutral zone and using Dsmash is just asking your opponent to come in, bend you sideways and **** you.

Doing anything as Ganon is asking to be ***** in theory. All of us know that everything Ganon does loses to shieldcamping and that all he can do about it is just bait and hope they push a button that we can punish.

People however do get hit by Ganon because people make mistakes. D-smash actually is LEGIT at punishing many aerial spacing strategies though, and besides the Ice Climbers and Falco, many of Ganon's particularly bad matchups are against characters who he cannot anti-air reliably.

When you realize that D-smash is in fact one of Ganon's more practical anti-air options, that's when it actually becomes a situationally useful tool. The 2nd hit has more range and damage than Ganon's tilts, and it evades attacks better than F-smash.

D-smash I agree is in many ways a terrible move, but it is NOT completely useless. It actually has a time and place to be used for spacing, and you should try throwing out reverse D-smashes here and there. It sounds absolutely bat**** insane I know, but people DO get hit by this.

 

[Vermanubis]

As what I believe to be an extremely experimental Ganon who's willing to make use of/try anything, I'm gonna have to agree with Clai. DSmash is a useless move outside of using it to cover more options on a Gerudo. Clai's right in that which the second hit of DSmash has no payoff worth its godawful speed and cooldown. It doesn't kill, and it doesn't deal much damage, and I can't think of a single instance in which another move whose usefulness in such a scenario does not take precedence.

 

[A2ZOMG]

D-smash does 14-15%. That's more damage than Ganon's tilts and a few of his aerials (outside of having significantly more range than all of those), and it has a chance of baiting things that nothing else in his movepool can really bait effectively. Yes it's a bad move, but it actually can do things the rest of his moves have a much harder time doing.

The one move that's most likely to outclass D-smash for situational baits like that...is B reverse Flame Choke. Though it has much worse priority and is less safe on whiff. Though it's good due to how fast you can use it to turn around and grab after dash as well as the followups associated.

FURTHERMORE as Ganondorf, you WANT to be implementing other moves BESIDES the ones we already consider to be good. It's hard enough to score kills with Ganon given he usually is only able to land about 3 moves. Anything we can do to circumvent stale moves, even if only to a small extent, is useful. The fact D-smash actually is landable in specific situations can't be ignored for that reason alone, though Ganon users really, really underestimate the range the 2nd hit has as well as its dodge properties.

 

[Heartstring]

this just in, a2 is a world class troll
shame is jsut so obvious

 

[A2ZOMG]

If you have nothing better to do than call me a troll, I'll just say that you're only proving me to be more right, when you can't defend why in fact I am wrong.

Try harder. I'm a very serious person. I know it sounds absolutely crazy, but reverse D-smashes actually DO hit people. As stupidly telegraphed it might sound, it has legitimate spacing utility that no other move in Ganon's moveset can fit, and it outdamages Ganon's tilts. For Ganon, D-smashing is an alternative to spotdodging. Spotdodge if you want a grab. D-smash if you're expecting someone to commit to aerial spacing.

 

[Clai]

Not everything Ganon does gets him *****. Uair, Bair, Nair, Ftilt, Dtilt, Dash Attack, even Flame Choke all can keep him from getting hit too hard, assuming all these moves are spaced or used properly. The problem is that his piss poor mobility combined with his lack of anything fast to prevent zone zerging is what prevents him from being able to space these moves with inpugnity. With the exception of maybe some sword characters (Marth particularly comes to mind), characters aren't going to use their aerials to space, they're going to go straight into Ganon's CQC zone and pressure him, knowing that Ganon doesn't have anything fast to punish such reckless approaching. I don't know what situations are going to allow you to 'bait' your opponent with Dsmash, but considering how hard Ganon will get destroyed if you mispredict (and with that shield pull, Ganon will get destroyed), it's just not worth using.

I do think B-reverse Side-B is pretty cool, though, and worth it in some situations.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I dunno, I feel Ganon's worst matchups that don't involve guys like the Ice Climbers and Falco are in fact against characters who outspace him badly in the air. Ganon doesn't really suffer as much in close quarters as he suffers at anti-airing with any real consistency if you ask me.

Characters who play against Ganon on the ground have to deal with the threat of his amazing dash attack, which actually is SUPER LEGIT at stuffing the majority of what happens on the ground. Ganon also is not horrible at keeping grounded opponents at a distance with his D-tilt either.

The problem is against people who are in the air. Ganon SUCKS at anti-airing. His shieldgrab is bad. His jump startup is bad. His U-smash is slow and has bad range. B-air is hard to use because of Ganon's slow jump startup and because it requires you to face backwards. SH N-air actually isn't horrible for anti-airs, and should be used more though the reward is usually mediocre. U-air is okay for anti-airs but doesn't have nearly enough range to punish most good spacing (it's best for punishing crossovers and vertical spacing).

Ganon's D-smash is STILL a bad move I agree, but it fits a utility in anti-airing that none of Ganon's other moves fits any better. Ganon's D-smash is a move that actually has the properties and range to let it punish what would normally be considered good spacing on a read.

14-15 damage is also not bad, and seriously, the ending lag is not that horrible on whiff. Yes it sucks on block, but you're overrating how hard you can be punished for getting it blocked to some extent. Just don't do it against anyone who chaingrabs Ganon for a long time, and those characters are usually going to be on the ground against Ganon anyway so you don't need to worry about D-smash being used here. It's the other characters who beat Ganon through superior (aerial) spacing where you can't ignore D-smash 2nd hit.

In fact against Marth in specific, him being closer to you when he blocks a move isn't necessarily a bad thing. It potentially means you're too close to be tippered.

 

[smashkng]

Your opinions are way too selfish A2Z. You sure must be trolling especially when you said that Ganon's doesn't have much range.

 

[A2ZOMG]

When did I say Ganon didn't have much range?

He has bad horizontal range range on U-smash and F-tilt, especially considering their startup times. And U-air's horizontal range can't exactly be called "good" either. Certainly not good enough to consistently anti-air all the characters who have much better aerial spacing than Ganon does.

Ganon's D-tilt has good horizontal range, but is limited by being a low hitbox, which reserves it for grounded opponents. Ganon's D-smash 2nd hit however is a move that has a lot of lean and a lot of horizontal range, and hits high enough to be used to challenge aerial spacing. This is something that's overlooked by Ganon users, especially when you consider Ganon's lack of better anti-air options.

 

[Heartstring]

a2, youre just wrong, yes you have made some decent points in the past, but at times you speak stuff which is so wrong is laughable
please retreat back to aib, where people are inclined to agree with you regardless of whats being spoken

 

[Clai]

I dunno, I feel Ganon's worst matchups that don't involve guys like the Ice Climbers and Falco are in fact against characters who outspace him badly in the air. Ganon doesn't really suffer as much in close quarters as he suffers at anti-airing with any real consistency if you ask me.

Personally I feel that his inability to get out of CQC situations is far more detrimental than his anti-air capabilities. There isn't a worse feeling to have than knowing that your opponent can easily get into your space and violate you and Ganon can't do a thing to stop it. That's why I hate going up against passive-aggressive players who wait in the neutral zone before finding an opportunity to go inside; Sonic in particular infuriates me.

Characters who play against Ganon on the ground have to deal with the threat of his amazing dash attack, which actually is SUPER LEGIT at stuffing the majority of what happens on the ground. Ganon also is not horrible at keeping grounded opponents at a distance with his D-tilt either.

As I said before, Ganon's lack of mobility and his lack of any quick options (all jabs and most tilts are faster than the 10 frames for DA/Dtilt) prevent these moves from presenting the utility Ganon really needs.

The problem is against people who are in the air. Ganon SUCKS at anti-airing. His shieldgrab is bad. His jump startup is bad. His U-smash is slow and has bad range. B-air is hard to use because of Ganon's slow jump startup and because it requires you to face backwards. SH N-air actually isn't horrible for anti-airs, and should be used more though the reward is usually mediocre. U-air is okay for anti-airs but doesn't have nearly enough range to punish most good spacing (it's best for punishing crossovers and vertical spacing).

You keep mentioning Ganon's bad jump start-up time, and yet you don't mention how Ganon's Dsmash takes 15 frames and that's for the first hit. If the opponent is spacing well enough that Ganon's Uair or Nair can't handle it, it means that he's not close enough to Ganon to really let the pressure on and thus Ganon can be in his shield or roll back pretty safely.

Ganon's D-smash is STILL a bad move I agree, but it fits a utility in anti-airing that none of Ganon's other moves fits any better. Ganon's D-smash is a move that actually has the properties and range to let it punish what would normally be considered good spacing on a read.

14-15 damage is also not bad, and seriously, the ending lag is not that horrible on whiff. Yes it sucks on block, but you're overrating how hard you can be punished for getting it blocked to some extent. Just don't do it against anyone who chaingrabs Ganon for a long time, and those characters are usually going to be on the ground against Ganon anyway so you don't need to worry about D-smash being used here. It's the other characters who beat Ganon through superior (aerial) spacing where you can't ignore D-smash 2nd hit.

You're underestimating how hard Ganon gets wrecked if he lets the opponent get close enough to him. Jab combos, tilts and grabs putting Ganon in horrible positions, you don't need chaingrabs to pile on massive amounts of damage that can easily come from a few simple reads because most of Ganondorf's options are unusable in those situations. The implications of being baited (as the opponent can easily disguise an empty shorthop as an attempt to space you) and the risk of what will happen if the opponent enters the CQC zone is simply not worth the chance of successfully reading the opponent and doing a simple 14-15% damage with no opportunity to follow up.

In fact against Marth in specific, him being closer to you when he blocks a move isn't necessarily a bad thing. It potentially means you're too close to be tippered.

It gives Marth free reign to put Ganon in any position he wants. With Ganon's lack of quick options to stop him, no thanks.

Your opinions are way too selfish A2Z. You sure must be trolling especially when you said that Ganon's doesn't have much range.

a2, youre just wrong, yes you have made some decent points in the past, but at times you speak stuff which is so wrong is laughable
please retreat back to aib, where people are inclined to agree with you regardless of whats being spoken

Come on guys, let's be civil. Everyone deserves to have their opinions treated fairly, even if we don't particularly approve of his/her mannerisms.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Personally I feel that his inability to get out of CQC situations is far more detrimental than his anti-air capabilities. There isn't a worse feeling to have than knowing that your opponent can easily get into your space and violate you and Ganon can't do a thing to stop it. That's why I hate going up against passive-aggressive players who wait in the neutral zone before finding an opportunity to go inside; Sonic in particular infuriates me.

There is really only one character in the game who actually dominates Ganon as badly as you suggest he does through CQC pressure. Sheik. Outside of that, Falco, and the Ice Climbers, most of Ganon's hardest matchups are against characters who dominate him in the air. Ganon can make people regret hitting buttons on the ground because spacing on the ground is far more limited than spacing in the air. Characters who actually have to beat Ganon on the ground and are not named Sheik (who actually also beats him in the air solidly) generally aren't really bad matchups for Ganon.

And while Sonic is definitely not easy for Ganon, I feel you overstate how much he wins against Ganon. Sonic pretty much can only try to run the clock against Ganon if you don't do anything really stupid.

Actually ROB thrashes Ganon with ground options, but in a manner more like how the Ice Climbers beat Ganon. He walls the hell out of Ganon. His close quarters are pretty uninspiring.

As I said before, Ganon's lack of mobility and his lack of any quick options (all jabs and most tilts are faster than the 10 frames for DA/Dtilt) prevent these moves from presenting the utility Ganon really needs.

Uh, whose Jabs and tilts? For the record I only see Sheik's Jabs and tilts really dominating Ganon on the ground badly enough to be crippling. You kinda underestimate how much frame disadvantage a lot of those tilts and Jabs acquire on shield, and furthermore I don't exactly get how X random character just runs up and Jabs instantly. Ganon's mobility issues are more prone to make him suffer against strong aerial games rather than strong ground games, given that ground spacing is far more limited.

You keep mentioning Ganon's bad jump start-up time, and yet you don't mention how Ganon's Dsmash takes 15 frames and that's for the first hit. If the opponent is spacing well enough that Ganon's Uair or Nair can't handle it, it means that he's not close enough to Ganon to really let the pressure on and thus Ganon can be in his shield or roll back pretty safely.

You are not putting the range of D-smash and the relatively low ending lag in perspective. Many Ganon users think U-smash is good for baiting on whiff. D-smash really isn't that much worse on whiff, and it has far more range than U-smash does, not to mention Ganon's other aerials. Ganon's air mobility is crap, so it's not like spacing an aerial is getting him any more real flexibility than just turning around and D-smashing on a read, which actually has the potential to bait.

You're underestimating how hard Ganon gets wrecked if he lets the opponent get close enough to him. Jab combos, tilts and grabs putting Ganon in horrible positions, you don't need chaingrabs to pile on massive amounts of damage that can easily come from a few simple reads because most of Ganondorf's options are unusable in those situations. The implications of being baited (as the opponent can easily disguise an empty shorthop as an attempt to space you) and the risk of what will happen if the opponent enters the CQC zone is simply not worth the chance of successfully reading the opponent and doing a simple 14-15% damage with no opportunity to follow up.

What matchup are we talking about? Yeah if you're against King DDD or Falco who are grounded opponents...you will be spacing with different tools. I'm talking about characters like Marth, G&W, Peach, and Mario, who are characters who are REALLY hard for Ganon not because they have silly abuses on him, but because Ganon has a REALLY hard time hitting due to superior aerial spacing games. Actually, Jiggs qualifies here too as well for "beating Ganon due to superior air spacing", but her mobility actually puts her on a whole different level of extreme difficulty for Ganon given that absolutely nothing Ganon does is able to punish her spacing.

It gives Marth free reign to put Ganon in any position he wants. With Ganon's lack of quick options to stop him, no thanks.

Don't recover badly. DI carefully if it will help you avoid a combo. You have to do this in general when you take hits, and you're going to get hit by Marth if you space anything poorly. Not just Ganon's D-smash, any whiffed aerial, tilt, Jab, or grab can be punished by Marth effectively. I don't understand how you're implying Marth can punish D-smash in any special way, and the point is it can be used as a counter to a certain type of spacing that isn't uncommon from him.

Instead of theorycrafting why Ganon absolutely should not be doing well in X situations and whining why a strategy shouldn't be viable in theory, just try implementing D-smashes in some matches. I'm not telling you this has to be a staple in your game, but you SHOULD try to implement it occasionally as a counter to aerial spacing. I've had my share of success from implementing reverse D-smashes here and there. It's not like Ganon is going to be a viable character if you do anything else, but I'm simply explaining that D-smash is in fact a usable niche option. People will expect Ganon's aerials and space to shut them down. In many of those situations, those spacing strategies do not shut down a well-spaced D-smash.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

I've been DSmashing a bit... as much as I hate to, I have to say, I think A2 might be onto something. It's not quite as useful as A2 makes it sound, but it does have uses.

 

[Clai]

There is really only one character in the game who actually dominates Ganon as badly as you suggest he does through CQC pressure. Sheik. Outside of that, Falco, and the Ice Climbers, most of Ganon's hardest matchups are against characters who dominate him in the air. Ganon can make people regret hitting buttons on the ground because spacing on the ground is far more limited than spacing in the air. Characters who actually have to beat Ganon on the ground and are not named Sheik (who actually also beats him in the air solidly) generally aren't really bad matchups for Ganon.

People who try and outspace me in the air allow me time to formulate strategies and mindgames. People who continuously pressure me give me far more trouble because I don't have very good reactions and I usually go by option select, which fails when Ganon doesn't have quick enough options to beat a fast ground strategy. I should also mention that I also group aerial spacing close to the ground, so when I mean ground game I'm not just talking about jabs and tilts but I'm talking about quick aerials that people can use while fast-falling and have pretty minimal lag. I am basing this on personal experience, which is a far better indicator of what's going wrong than any theorycraft can.

And while Sonic is definitely not easy for Ganon, I feel you overstate how much he wins against Ganon. Sonic pretty much can only try to run the clock against Ganon if you don't do anything really stupid.

I didn't say anything about running out the clock. I said Sonic can just wait for Ganon to do anything (and I mean anything), close in on his space, and just wreck face. As I said, I don't have good reaction speed, so I can't tell whether Sonic's going to dash in and shield an attempt for Ganon to hit him, try to cross over and get Ganon in a bad spot, or just hit him with an aerial and try and follow up with even more damage. Even people with good reaction times can't cover all of those options with Ganon, and with Ganon's lack of anything quick, he can't afford to mispredict. Again, experience.

Actually ROB thrashes Ganon with ground options, but in a manner more like how the Ice Climbers beat Ganon. He walls the hell out of Ganon. His close quarters are pretty uninspiring.

I do just fine against ROB, but that might be because I fight walls a lot better than I fight pressure. I live near a good ROB main and trust me, fighting ROB is a million times easier than fighting Sonic.

Uh, whose Jabs and tilts? For the record I only see Sheik's Jabs and tilts really dominating Ganon on the ground badly enough to be crippling. You kinda underestimate how much frame disadvantage a lot of those tilts and Jabs acquire on shield, and furthermore I don't exactly get how X random character just runs up and Jabs instantly. Ganon's mobility issues are more prone to make him suffer against strong aerial games rather than strong ground games, given that ground spacing is far more limited.

Right, I totally forgot about Ganon's stellar out of shield options. That definitely beats any attempts for other characters to pressure Ganon. Oh wait...

I'll explain how pressuring works. Some characters have some use of projectiles, in which they are going to use to force Ganon to commit to some action (whetiher it be shieding, avoiding, or overriding them). Even for those that don't have projectiles, they have use of an aerial with quick start-up time and low landing lag (think Mario's Bair, Ike's Nair, Fox's Nair, Kirby's Bair, Lucas' Nair, DK's Bair, etc. etc). Now these aerials can be beaten by some of Ganon's options (Ftilt/Dash Attack) but only if Ganon predicts them and strikes first, since Ganon's moves are slower than they are and Ganon doesn't have good enough shield options to punish them on block. On top of that, the character can easily disguise these attacks and just empty short hop and fastfall to the ground to shield any preemptive move Ganon does. And if Ganon shields a predicted aerial, the character can just rush in and grab (most grabs are faster than reaction time, I should remind you). Because Ganon's options are simply slower than everyone elses, the other player will always be one step ahead of Ganondorf if he sticks close to the neutral zone and doesn't show obvious signs of committing. Jabs are just there as a "I know Ganon doesn't have anything fast enough that can keep me out" option. Lest I also remind you that most jabs outspace Ganon's grab range.

You are not putting the range of D-smash and the relatively low ending lag in perspective. Many Ganon users think U-smash is good for baiting on whiff. D-smash really isn't that much worse on whiff, and it has far more range than U-smash does, not to mention Ganon's other aerials. Ganon's air mobility is crap, so it's not like spacing an aerial is getting him any more real flexibility than just turning around and D-smashing on a read, which actually has the potential to bait.

Dsmash is far slower and requires far more commitment than any of Ganon's aerials, jump time included. You also continuously use the word 'bait' and when I've asked 'just what the heck is Ganon going to be baiting?" you've failed to answer it so far (unless I've missed it but have probably countered with one of my other points already). I'm going to focus on fighting the neutral zone because that's where an opponent competant in the matchup is going to be more often than not. D-smash is balls awful againts the neutral zone because of how bad it is on shield; for me that's an automatic disqualification regardless of its range.

What matchup are we talking about? Yeah if you're against King DDD or Falco who are grounded opponents...you will be spacing with different tools. I'm talking about characters like Marth, G&W, Peach, and Mario, who are characters who are REALLY hard for Ganon not because they have silly abuses on him, but because Ganon has a REALLY hard time hitting due to superior aerial spacing games. Actually, Jiggs qualifies here too as well for "beating Ganon due to superior air spacing", but her mobility actually puts her on a whole different level of extreme difficulty for Ganon given that absolutely nothing Ganon does is able to punish her spacing.

Ganon has bad mobility no matter how you put it, so I'm talking about any character that can keep close to the neutral zone with fast aerials they can use close to the ground, which is essentially most of the cast, considering most characters aren't terrible like Ganon. It doesn't matter if Ganon can accurately predict an opponent using an aerial and dodging it with the leaning part of Dsmash if the opponent is already in the neutral zone by the time the second hit comes out because of how slow the move is.

Don't recover badly. DI carefully if it will help you avoid a combo. You have to do this in general when you take hits, and you're going to get hit by Marth if you space anything poorly. Not just Ganon's D-smash, any whiffed aerial, tilt, Jab, or grab can be punished by Marth effectively. I don't understand how you're implying Marth can punish D-smash in any special way, and the point is it can be used as a counter to a certain type of spacing that isn't uncommon from him.

I wasn't trying to single out Marth in any special way, he's just one of many characters that can keep low and noncommital while waiting for Ganon to try and predict the opponent and commit first. Why put myself in a situation where I'm at the mercy of my opponent's prediction skills if I can use another option that doesn't require so much commitment. The potential setbacks of mispredicting are not worth it.

But if you want something specific, here's what Marth can do:
-Marth blocks Dsmash and the shieldpull brings him in enough to grab Ganon.
-Marth throws Ganon- free damage and allows Marth to walk up to Ganon and try to bait a response from him.
-Ganon has bad options when trying to defend continuous hits. Shield beats most of Ganon's options and Ganon doesn't have the luxury of trying to avoid any responses because he's using the momentum of being thrown.
-Due to significantly lesser options, Marth can be at the spacing he wants to cover every single option Ganon can do and repeat the process again.
-Not to mention any potential gimping options, considering a Ganon even recovering well can be predicted and he doesn't need to be sent that far to ensure that he doesn't come back to the stage.

Again, there's no actual benefit to landing the move that convinces me to use it in any situation.

Instead of theorycrafting why Ganon absolutely should not be doing well in X situations and whining why a strategy shouldn't be viable in theory, just try implementing D-smashes in some matches. I'm not telling you this has to be a staple in your game, but you SHOULD try to implement it occasionally as a counter to aerial spacing. I've had my share of success from implementing reverse D-smashes here and there. It's not like Ganon is going to be a viable character if you do anything else, but I'm simply explaining that D-smash is in fact a usable niche option. People will expect Ganon's aerials and space to shut them down. In many of those situations, those spacing strategies do not shut down a well-spaced D-smash.

I rarely go to tournaments, so any time I do spend playing is going to be polishing my technical skills and removing the rust, not using gimmicks that have little chance of working.

Also, instead of boasting about how sick your Ganon is and trying to pass off your knowledge as superior, just try using Ganon in tournament play against good players. Ganon's weaknesses are far more gamebreaking than you understand, and only by playing people that know how to abuse Ganon's shortcomings will you understand where I'm coming off on these things. I have to worry about all of my opponent's options as Ganon's too slow to confidently beat an option even most of the time, and I'm not going to subject myself to any more pressure than I need to by using a move that has extremely niche utility at best.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Clai, you and I agree a lot more about Ganon than you're trying to admit.

Ganon is terrible and absolutely should never win against anyone who knows the matchup. I completely agree with this statement, and I know you do too. The only way to win as Ganon is to play him to counter commitments and capitalize as much as possible on mistakes. I've met and played people with my Ganon in a few tournaments and know for a fact he suffers from many crippling weaknesses that he cannot overcome.

Shield beats Ganon in neutral position and the numbers prove that he has no options around it. Every competitive player in existence knows this. However in actual gameplay, Ganondorf does land hits, because people do screw up.

EVERYTHING Ganon does is gimmicks. Don't try to tell me otherwise. All of Ganon's best moves just happen to be his best gimmicks in terms of countering utility. Nothing he does is truly safe against anyone who knows how to space. Spacing with Ganon's aerials is an unsafe gimmick. Pressuring with D-tilt and Dash attack is also a gimmick. If you're going to call spacing D-smash a gimmick, that's not unique. So what if everyone can shieldgrab it easily? A lot of the cast can dashgrab everything Ganon does easily or spam aerials out of shield if they feel anything from Ganon touch them.

We're not trying to prove Ganondorf is going to be viable and able to win against any good players, because he's not. Regardless Ganon does have situational options that we can implement to improve ourselves as players. And 14-15% from the 2nd hit of D-smash is not terrible for countering spacing, and landing the move means getting a source of damage outside of Ganon's usual bread and butter "damage dealers" which is important, given he suffers a lot from stale moves.

Furthermore Clai, I feel that from what you're telling me you just don't know how to use out of shield options very well. Granted Ganon suffers from a bad shieldgrab (and to a slightly smaller extent, high hitting aerials), but his OOS game outside of that is actually okay. 10 Frame D-tilt and Dash Attack are GOOD options out of shield, and N-air and U-air also have decent utility out of shield. You have to realize that the majority of moves in this game actually are close to around -20 on block, and are usually made safe through proper spacing. There is a reason why the Sliding Shield is a popular approach in this game...and granted Ganon's lack of a real shieldgrab also means he doesn't have a real sliding shield approach.

 

[Clai]

EVERYTHING Ganon does is gimmicks. Don't try to tell me otherwise. All of Ganon's best moves just happen to be his best gimmicks in terms of countering utility. Nothing he does is truly safe against anyone who knows how to space. Spacing with Ganon's aerials is an unsafe gimmick. Pressuring with D-tilt and Dash attack is also a gimmick. If you're going to call spacing D-smash a gimmick, that's not unique. So what if everyone can shieldgrab it easily? A lot of the cast can dashgrab everything Ganon does easily or spam aerials out of shield if they feel anything from Ganon touch them.

Ganon is capable of spacing aerials without being punished too badly. Uair and Nair aren't terribly unsafe. Bair is not terribly unsafe. Ftilt and Dtilt aren't terribly unsafe. Dash Attack, when spaced properly, isn't that terrible. None of these moves scream "please come in and **** me" like Dsmash does, as long as you use the rest of the moveset properly. You can't use Dsmash properly because it's horribly slow and pulls your opponent into you when they shield it. The risk-benefit is horribly on the 'not worth it' scale, no matter how much you want to amp it up.

We're not trying to prove Ganondorf is going to be viable and able to win against any good players, because he's not.

If you really think this is true, get out of this forum. I am not kidding you. This is no place for that type of mindset.

Regardless Ganon does have situational options that we can implement to improve ourselves as players. And 14-15% from the 2nd hit of D-smash is not terrible for countering spacing, and landing the move means getting a source of damage outside of Ganon's usual bread and butter "damage dealers" which is important, given he suffers a lot from stale moves.

If you know how to properly use the rest of Ganondorf's moves, you shouldn't have a problem with stale moves. Yes Ganon is going to stale a bunch of his moves (Uair and Dash Attack come to mind), but you just need to keep in mind which moves are fresh and which moves are better used in a particular situation because of his stale moves query.

Furthermore Clai, I feel that from what you're telling me you just don't know how to use out of shield options very well. Granted Ganon suffers from a bad shieldgrab (and to a slightly smaller extent, high hitting aerials), but his OOS game outside of that is actually okay. 10 Frame D-tilt and Dash Attack are GOOD options out of shield, and N-air and U-air also have decent utility out of shield. You have to realize that the majority of moves in this game actually are close to around -20 on block, and are usually made safe through proper spacing. There is a reason why the Sliding Shield is a popular approach in this game...and granted Ganon's lack of a real shieldgrab also means he doesn't have a real sliding shield approach.

I'm not sure where the frame data thread is, so I've been trying to go off memory as to how safe moves are on block. If these aerials are really as bad as you say they are, then sorry for not being perfectly set about those. Although considering Ganon's lack of mobility, it's pretty easy for other opponents to space their aerials to make them safe on shield, and when that happens, they're spaced well enough to have a whole slew of options that Ganondorf simply can't cover all at once.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ganon is capable of spacing aerials without being punished too badly. Uair and Nair aren't terribly unsafe. Bair is not terribly unsafe. Ftilt and Dtilt aren't terribly unsafe. Dash Attack, when spaced properly, isn't that terrible. None of these moves scream "please come in and **** me" like Dsmash does, as long as you use the rest of the moveset properly. You can't use Dsmash properly because it's horribly slow and pulls your opponent into you when they shield it. The risk-benefit is horribly on the 'not worth it' scale, no matter how much you want to amp it up.

I'm sorry, how does D-smash exactly "scream 'please come in and **** me'"? The assumption is that you're using it in response to aerial spacing, where they are NOT shielding. Please use your head. If it gets ***** by shield, don't use it when they can shield.

I'm not seeing how U-air is safe except against tall characters who you actually can use it as a horizontal spacer, as well as reasonably safe against Wario who just has bad options around it. N-air is really unsafe, just decent due to its speed and hitbox size and duration. SHFF B-air and F-air have okay shield push, but are still quite unsafe on block, and D-air is almost never safe outside of retreating with it (in techchases mostly).

Also sorry, F-tilt is actually a very very unsafe move. Don't try to suggest it's a good move for Ganon to throw out randomly, especially considering that F-tilt doesn't even have very good range in the first place. I love F-tilt and I wish it was a good move outside of punishes, but no. It's one of Ganon's most situational moves due to its deceptively bad range.

Dash attack also is pretty much never safe on block unless you pull off the crossover, which is both risky (due to the commitment required) and difficult to do consistently.

Yes it sucks if they block D-smash, not much unlike how blocking anything else not named a perfectly spaced D-tilt or U-smash sucks. It's fine if they don't block it because the cooldown is actually acceptable enough to deal with on whiff (less cooldown than F-tilt, and much more range). If you're using this against an opponent in the air, and they react to it AFTER they jump, generally they're going to retreat to make sure they don't get hit, or if they think they can hit you, they are more likely to whiff on the lean and get punished. With that in perspective, Ganon's D-smash against aerial opponents actually has reasonable risk reward. Most aerials are not going to do more than 14-15 damage like Ganon's D-smash 2nd hit.

The thing you're trying to make your opponent unable to react to is not the actual hit. It's the lean, which is what starts up fast, and D-smash's lean is able to bait aerial spacing fairly well, given how much of a commitment aerial spacing is. Using D-smash is akin to spotdodging, where it's a huge commitment, but one that is able to punish other commitments in a way that can be difficult to react to.

And don't argue about neutral position because we both agree Ganon just gets ***** here no matter what in theory. The point is your opponent will make mistakes, and it's your job to know how they make mistakes in order to win as Ganon. D-smash actually can punish certain mistakes due to its range and spotdodge-like utility.

I could argue everything Ganon does screams "please come in and **** me" because he commits heavily on EVERYTHING. D-smash isn't the only move he commits on, and it has less cooldown than some of his other moves.

If you really think this is true, get out of this forum. I am not kidding you. This is no place for that type of mindset.

Clai, please don't kid yourself. Ganondorf is not competitively viable. This is just the facts, and trying to say otherwise is simply being delusional.

This does not mean we can't improve him and our ability to play him. Instead of whining and theorycrafting about why this doesn't work, you should just try it. I'm not theorycrafting about why D-smash works. I'm explaining from experience against people who play Brawl competitively that they do get hit by D-smash in situations where it's normally difficult to beat aerial spacing.

If you know how to properly use the rest of Ganondorf's moves, you shouldn't have a problem with stale moves. Yes Ganon is going to stale a bunch of his moves (Uair and Dash Attack come to mind), but you just need to keep in mind which moves are fresh and which moves are better used in a particular situation because of his stale moves query.

Uh Clai, the point is if you know how to use all of Ganon's moves properly, D-smash included, it will help you avoid problems with Stale Moves. It's GOOD to know that you have more options, and the fact is D-smash is an option.

I'm not sure where the frame data thread is, so I've been trying to go off memory as to how safe moves are on block. If these aerials are really as bad as you say they are, then sorry for not being perfectly set about those. Although considering Ganon's lack of mobility, it's pretty easy for other opponents to space their aerials to make them safe on shield, and when that happens, they're spaced well enough to have a whole slew of options that Ganondorf simply can't cover all at once.

Generally when you're getting pressured, you just want to pick wisely between Jab, D-tilt, N-air, and Dash Attack out of shield. U-air out of shield if they try to get cheeky with crossovers or vertical spacing. Stopping ground pressure is fundamentally not difficult in Brawl unless you're playing Ganon against Sheik, who is just on a whole different level of stupid for Ganon to deal with.

Furthermore, the frame data thread for Ganon is here. http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5216073&postcount=2

 

[Clai]

I'm sorry, how does D-smash exactly "scream 'please come in and **** me'"? The assumption is that you're using it in response to aerial spacing, where they are NOT shielding. Please use your head. If it gets ***** by shield, don't use it when they can shield.

Because as I've said this whole time, nobody is going to throw out aerials randomly in attempts to space you. If they want to pressure Ganon properly they're going to space their aerials close to the ground so that they can shield Ganon's attempts to counter it. Please read my arguments before you try to patronize me.

I'm not seeing how U-air is safe except against tall characters who you actually can use it as a horizontal spacer, as well as reasonably safe against Wario who just has bad options around it. N-air is really unsafe, just decent due to its speed and hitbox size and duration. SHFF B-air and F-air have okay shield push, but are still quite unsafe on block, and D-air is almost never safe outside of retreating with it (in techchases mostly).

Also sorry, F-tilt is actually a very very unsafe move. Don't try to suggest it's a good move for Ganon to throw out randomly, especially considering that F-tilt doesn't even have very good range in the first place. I love F-tilt and I wish it was a good move outside of punishes, but no. It's one of Ganon's most situational moves due to its deceptively bad range.

Dash attack also is pretty much never safe on block unless you pull off the crossover, which is both risky (due to the commitment required) and difficult to do consistently.

When I said, "used properly" I really meant "used properly." You're not going to be throwing out all these moves while your opponent is hiding in the neutral zone baiting your attacks. Ganon's going to be using Uair and Nair as attempts to counter aerial spacing (what does that remind me of?), and considering that Ganon's either going to be rising as a full-hop or he's going to autocancel it and not give much time for the opponent to do much of anything. This isn't even including platforms.

Bair has its uses hanging out near the ledge, where you can hit short characters and still autocancel the move. It doesn't nearly have the utility of Uair and Nair, but it has its uses.

It's not hard to get the spacing right for Dash Attack crossovers, and you can always just go for a grab if you think the opponent is going to hide in his shield and wait for the Dash Attack.

The other moves, such as Ftilt, Dair, Fair, Flame Choke, are only going to be used if the Ganon player is sure that he's going to counter whichever option the opponent is going to use. Yeah mispredicting is going to suck, but guess what? None of these moves come out in 35 frames and gives your opponent free range to do anything he wants if he shields it.

Yes it sucks if they block D-smash, not much unlike how blocking anything else not named a perfectly spaced D-tilt or U-smash sucks.

Shield pull makes it a lot nastier on block than any other move. Giving your opponent every single option to punish you against only a few options is a very drastic difference.

It's fine if they don't block it because the cooldown is actually acceptable enough to deal with on whiff (less cooldown than F-tilt, and much more range). If you're using this against an opponent in the air, and they react to it AFTER they jump, generally they're going to retreat to make sure they don't get hit, or if they think they can hit you, they are more likely to whiff on the lean and get punished.

Or, you know, they can just land, walk up to Ganon and lol at how slow the move is (and yes I looked at the frame data to back up my point).

With that in perspective, Ganon's D-smash against aerial opponents actually has reasonable risk reward. Most aerials are not going to do more than 14-15 damage like Ganon's D-smash 2nd hit.

I'm really just repeating myself here, so I'm not going into further detail. Dsmash does not have reasonable risk-reward ratio. It doesn't have anywhere even remotely close to anything conisdered a reasonable risk-reward ratio. Stop deluding yourself into thinking this is true, because it's not true. Free reign to do anything and everything to Ganon is not worth 14-15% damage with no chance to follow up.

The thing you're trying to make your opponent unable to react to is not the actual hit. It's the lean, which is what starts up fast, and D-smash's lean is able to bait aerial spacing fairly well, given how much of a commitment aerial spacing is. Using D-smash is akin to spotdodging, where it's a huge commitment, but one that is able to punish other commitments in a way that can be difficult to react to.

Aerial spacing does not involve as much commitment as you're making it out to be. A lot of characters have an aerial they can throw out very quickly, so they're not going to fully commit themselves to a move if they can do it close to the neutral zone as a fallback. If they're going to space an aerial, they're going to either space it as a full hop so that they'll be far away from Ganon's Dsmash even if the lean avoids it, or they're going to do it close to the ground so that they can shield the upcoming Dsmash. Dsmash loses in either case.

And don't argue about neutral position because we both agree Ganon just gets ***** here no matter what in theory. The point is your opponent will make mistakes, and it's your job to know how they make mistakes in order to win as Ganon. D-smash actually can punish certain mistakes due to its range and spotdodge-like utility.

I'm going to argue neutral position because that's where a competant opponent is going to be the vast majority of the time. I assume competance in my opponent, thank you very much, and if the opponent makes a mistake that I'm going to punish, I'll much rather pick a move that actually have a chance to follow up to things than Dsmash.

I could argue everything Ganon does screams "please come in and **** me" because he commits heavily on EVERYTHING. D-smash isn't the only move he commits on, and it has less cooldown than some of his other moves.

You could argue that, but you'd be laughably wrong. Ganondorf has so many other safer options he can use and even those that are just as unsafe on block as Dsmash have so much more utility elsewhere than Dsmash. That move is simply way too slow and has too narrow of a range in utility to be used (Ganons don't even spotdodge that much anyway, and even if when they do, they'll probably going to follow it up by staying in their shield or rolling to a possibly safer option; rarely if ever are they going to attack out of spotdodge)

Clai, please don't kid yourself. Ganondorf is not competitively viable. This is just the facts, and trying to say otherwise is simply being delusional.

If you seriously think for even a moment that I think Ganondorf is competitively viable, then I facepalm in your direction. The point of competition is to fully face the scope of what you're facing and despite the overwhelming odds against you, you go out and do your hardest to win. I have enough confirmation that Ganon is awful every time I use him against another player. This forum is to look at how we can overcome his weaknesses and to figure out what to do if Ganon has to go up against the best players using the worst matchups. There's no point in stating the obvious because we all already know that.

This does not mean we can't improve him and our ability to play him. Instead of whining and theorycrafting about why this doesn't work, you should just try it. I'm not theorycrafting about why D-smash works. I'm explaining from experience against people who play Brawl competitively that they do get hit by D-smash in situations where it's normally difficult to beat aerial spacing.

and I'm explaining from experience that the type of people who get hit by Dsmash are the type of people who don't know how to fight Ganon properly and should not be taken into account. As I've said before, I have far better things to do than to try implementing a move that has a horrendous risk to reward ratio and will leave you completely open more often than not.

Also, I was really asking for frame data for all the other characters in the game. It'd be good to brush up on how well other characters' aerials do on shield (Mario's Bair, Luigi's Bair, DK's Bair, Wolf's Bair, etc etc)

 

[A2ZOMG]

Clai, you're overestimating how slow 35 frames is. Yes it's bad for conventional poking. But people generally have to commit to the air for about 40 frames when they jump, and Ganon's ability to bait and avoid moves while D-smashing starts up in more like 4 frames.

DDD players get away with F-smash every so often because of this simple fact alone and due to the fact their F-smash outranges aerial spacing. Ganon D-smashing, while worse on block, is in fact viable and useful for that principle.

And Clai, people who actually know how to fight Ganon are generally going to abuse his lack of good anti-air options if they're not a character that has a silly chaingrab on him. Ganon's ability to punish ground options is significantly better than his ability to punish air options. Furthermore you're really underestimating the fact that you can definitely implement moves in situations where people won't be blocking.

It's not like Ganon gets much more reward for doing anything else to anti-air people in the first place, unless if he successfully B reverse Flame Chokes a whiff, which is also very situational if useful. So 14-15 damage from D-smash actually is not terrible with that in perspective, if it's for showing your opponent that you can keep them from being mindless about their normally unpunishable aerial spacing.

 

[Clai]

Clai, you're overestimating how slow 35 frames is. Yes it's bad for conventional poking. But people generally have to commit to the air for about 40 frames when they jump, and Ganon's ability to bait and avoid moves while D-smashing starts up in more like 4 frames.

Taken from Mario's frame data thread (woo for Google):

Short Hop Fast Fall
Begin: 6
End: 35
Landing lag: 4

But of course opponents aren't going to continuously space with an aerial right when they're about to jump. They're going to vary their timing with their spacing. They can do it rising, they can do it close to the ground, just because they're committing to the air doesn't mean it's any more predictable when they're going to actually attack you. There's simply too narrow of a window to take any advantage of a lean and far too much opportunity to be punished.

DDD players get away with F-smash every so often because of this simple fact alone and due to the fact their F-smash outranges aerial spacing. Ganon D-smashing, while worse on block, is in fact viable and useful for that principle.

If Ganon's Dsmash killed people at 50%, we'd be having a completely different discussion. Besides, how often do DDD players even use Fsmash, once a set likely? And that's mostly when the shield push prevents the opponent from just waltzing in and decimating DDD. DDD's Fsmash brings less risk and more reward, and any move that's outclassed by that is a move that I'm not going to be using, especially on a character like Ganon.

And Clai, people who actually know how to fight Ganon are generally going to abuse his lack of good anti-air options if they're not a character that has a silly chaingrab on him. Ganon's ability to punish ground options is significantly better than his ability to punish air options. Furthermore you're really underestimating the fact that you can definitely implement moves in situations where people won't be blocking.

Actual experience stemming from actually using this character in tournaments says otherwise. Half of Ganon's moveset works so much better when the opponent's in the air than when they're on the ground simply because a good number of moves can't hit grounded opponents. Opponents who stay close to the ground and use a combination of sliding shields and aerials spaced near the ground are far worse to go against because Ganon's ground options are so much more baitable and exploitable than Ganon's options in the air.

It's not like Ganon gets much more reward for doing anything else to anti-air people in the first place, unless if he successfully B reverse Flame Chokes a whiff, which is also very situational if useful. So 14-15 damage from D-smash actually is not terrible with that in perspective, if it's for showing your opponent that you can keep them from being mindless about their normally unpunishable aerial spacing.

Some moves have a possibility of following up, most moves kill a lot earlier, and most moves certainly don't give as much of a free pass for opponents for misprediction as Dsmash does. I'm going to keep saying this because it's true and you can't seem to accept it:

Dsmash has far too narrow range of acceptable situations in which it can be used, it will be way too heavily punished for trying to use it outside of this range, and the benefit is not worth it in the slightest. When I'm going against a tournament opponent fearing for Ganon's life knowing he can get ***** at the slightest opportunity, I'm not going to think about when I'm going to get an opportunity to use Dsmash, I'm going to save my mental capacity on moves that don't suck.

 

[Vermanubis]

A2, Clai's 100% right. Being as competitive and thirsty to advance Ganon's metagame as I am, I'd be the first one to tell you if I thought DSmash had any application of any sort. In truth, I've even added my L button in to use Quake to deal with Snake's shield pressure on Ganon.

But Clai is absolutely, positively 100% correct in that which the scope of DSmash's application is far too narrow in the light of other safer, faster and more powerful options. DSmash may have some use, but none of which one of Ganon's many other substitutes do not overshadow significantly in all respects.

DSmash is, in truth, Ganon's only bad move.

 

[A2ZOMG]

U-smash is worse in singles. U-smash doesn't even have the range to hit anything unless you block wizkick or bait a shieldgrab in Ganon dittos. You can try D-air -> U-smash, but it's not guaranteed to hit anyone given they can just airdodge if they know the matchup. U-smash is only better than D-smash on PS2's Ice Transformation, and PS2 for whatever reason isn't a commonly played stage.

Ganon's D-smash at least actually has a good deal more range than a lot of his moves and is better on whiff than you guys realize. It is NOT completely overshadowed by his other substitutes for that reason alone. If you whiff an aerial against someone who is spacing aerials against you, that puts you in a worse position than D-smashing. Yes D-smash sucks on block. Nobody is denying that. The point is if you use it as someone is jumping, they will not be blocking. Trying to poke back with Ganon's aerials against good aerial spacing is fairly likely to get stuffed, while D-smashing as someone is jumping is something that Ganon can occasionally get away with without getting hit.

Furthermore, Ganondorf isn't a character who can complain about moves overshadowing one another. If he can find a use for any move, it's useful. He NEEDS all the potential ways to land damage possible given that he lacks real damage dealers.

Besides D-smashing, the other way of baiting whiffs that I do not see enough of is B reverse Flame Choke. Both are among Ganon's better options for anti-airs.

Actual experience stemming from actually using this character in tournaments says otherwise. Half of Ganon's moveset works so much better when the opponent's in the air than when they're on the ground simply because a good number of moves can't hit grounded opponents. Opponents who stay close to the ground and use a combination of sliding shields and aerials spaced near the ground are far worse to go against because Ganon's ground options are so much more baitable and exploitable than Ganon's options in the air.

The assumption you're making is after putting people in a disadvantageous position. Yes Ganon's juggles are really good. FROM THE NEUTRAL POSITION, Ganon gets ***** by strong air games more than he gets ***** by strong ground games. Being able to anti-air with Ganon is by far more crucial to know how to do than being able to stop ground games. People actually have to respect the threat of Ganon's Dash Attack, D-tilt, Wizkick, and really well-spaced SHFF F-airs and B-airs when they are on the ground. Even if none of those options beats shield, people on the ground at least are going to think twice before hitting a button if they're on the ground and if Ganon is in range to space those optimally. There is barely anything to respect from Ganon when pressuring him with well-spaced (usually fullhop) rising aerials, especially given how easy it is for several characters to stay out of Ganon's U-air range. Jiggs is the best example of an extremely bad matchup for Ganon by taking advantage of where Ganon is weakest. Ganon CANNOT anti-air this character in any realistic way if all she does is pressure Ganon's head with fullhop B-airs. She also happens to have a better grab game than Ganon, and even though it's unsafe on block, Ganon's zoning gets CRUSHED by Pound, meaning rarely can he even afford to guess his way for lucky anti-airs.

Characters whose air games have trouble challenging Ganon are the characters Ganon generally does better against. Bowser is the best example. His ground game is decent. His air game is trash in practically every way. And it's probably the one matchup Ganon could conceivably consider in his favor.

 

[Clai]

U-smash is worse in singles. U-smash doesn't even have the range to hit anything unless you block wizkick or bait a shieldgrab in Ganon dittos. You can try D-air -> U-smash, but it's not guaranteed to hit anyone given they can just airdodge if they know the matchup. U-smash is only better than D-smash on PS2's Ice Transformation, and PS2 for whatever reason isn't a commonly played stage.

U-smash is useful when your opponent is above you, particularly on platforms, but otherwise it's not going to have much utility. The whole process of stage control makes Usmash much more useful than Dsmash since platforms are a huge way to garner presence on the stage (FD being the obvious exception)

Ganon's D-smash at least actually has a good deal more range than a lot of his moves and is better on whiff than you guys realize. It is NOT completely overshadowed by his other substitutes for that reason alone.

But the vast majority of the time Dsmash is going to either be blocked or the opponent will have already manuevered himself to be over the hitbox and punish Ganon that way (looks at the 63 frame last time... yeah....). It's extremely unlikely that your opponent will ever be positioning himself in a way that Dsmash can be useful that another move (or just shielding the aerial) can't accomplish better.

If you whiff an aerial against someone who is spacing aerials against you, that puts you in a worse position than D-smashing.

Uh, no, this is just stupefyingly wrong. If Ganon whiffs an aerial, he's either rising up to the air to make use of his decent aerials or he's going to be close to the ground so he can stay in the neutral position. Worst case scenario Ganon gets punished with an aerial that will likely send him far away enough that his opponent can't guarantee massive damage. Oh, and it's quite possible that your opponent can punish Dsmash with this aerial too, only he has much more delicious options concerning punishing that move.

Yes D-smash sucks on block. Nobody is denying that. The point is if you use it as someone is jumping, they will not be blocking. Trying to poke back with Ganon's aerials against good aerial spacing is fairly likely to get stuffed, while D-smashing as someone is jumping is something that Ganon can occasionally get away with without getting hit.

Firstly, you have to accurately predict that the opponent is going to jump in the first place because if your opponent is in the air by the time you decide to use Dsmash, your opponent can easily fast fall back to the ground in time to shield and punish the move (which I've already proven by frame data). Secondly, shielding or rolling away puts Ganon in a much better position because nobody can cover the roll distance while being in the air while simultaneously spacing perfectly on a shield. Thirdly, maneuvering and poking with aerials is much safer just in case the opponent is trying to bait Ganon- if you get stuffed you get stuffed, you just get back up and try again, once again your opponent can't space perfectly to stuff Ganon's aerials while simultaneously be close enough to guarantee any sort of **** if Ganon tries to use an aerial/roll back/whatever.

Furthermore, Ganondorf isn't a character who can complain about moves overshadowing one another. If he can find a use for any move, it's useful. He NEEDS all the potential ways to land damage possible given that he lacks real damage dealers.

Risk-reward ratio. Look it up. I'm tired of explaining it to you, and you're not going to bother listening anyway.

Besides D-smashing, the other way of baiting whiffs that I do not see enough of is B reverse Flame Choke. Both are among Ganon's better options for anti-airs.

A move that actually has a good risk-reward ratio? Gee whiz! This move I actually do use on occasion, at least as much as Flame Choke should be thrown out in a match.

The assumption you're making is after putting people in a disadvantageous position. Yes Ganon's juggles are really good.

I have no idea what you're actually saying here, but no, that's not even anywhere even on a remote level of remotely close to what I was saying.

FROM THE NEUTRAL POSITION, Ganon gets ***** by strong air games more than he gets ***** by strong ground games. Being able to anti-air with Ganon is by far more crucial to know how to do than being able to stop ground games. People actually have to respect the threat of Ganon's Dash Attack, D-tilt, Wizkick, and really well-spaced SHFF F-airs and B-airs when they are on the ground. Even if none of those options beats shield, people on the ground at least are going to think twice before hitting a button if they're on the ground and if Ganon is in range to space those optimally.

Guess what, Dash Attack, Dtilt and Wizkick can all be extremely baitable because your opponent can easily space himself in a position where they can threaten with jabs or a grab as most jabs and all grabs outspace Ganon's and all jabs/grabs are faster than any of Ganon's ground options, meaning that if Ganon doesn't want to get taken up the rear, he'll have to use these before the opponent has the opportunity to close himself in, and if the opponent is smart, this is when he's going to put up his shield, knowing that it beats every single option Ganon has on the ground. The fact that shield wrecks Ganon so hard is what makes Ganon's ground game garbage compared to his air game. Not to mention its a lot easier for the opponent to space himself to bait and punish on the ground than Ganon since Ganon's mobility is so garbage.

There is barely anything to respect from Ganon when pressuring him with well-spaced (usually fullhop) rising aerials, especially given how easy it is for several characters to stay out of Ganon's U-air range. Jiggs is the best example of an extremely bad matchup for Ganon by taking advantage of where Ganon is weakest. Ganon CANNOT anti-air this character in any realistic way if all she does is pressure Ganon's head with fullhop B-airs. She also happens to have a better grab game than Ganon, and even though it's unsafe on block, Ganon's zoning gets CRUSHED by Pound, meaning rarely can he even afford to guess his way for lucky anti-airs.

If Jigglypuff wants to space full-hop Bairs at my head all day, I say let her. I'm going to roll away, retreat to the ledge, do any sort of maneuver to make sure I'm not a sitting duck for when she decides to close in, bait me, grab me, throw me offstage and gimp me until next week. Ganondorf has so much more mobility and better options in the air than on the ground that I'm going to make the fullest use of them. Jigglypuff's most dangerous when she uses that aerial mobility to crossover while staying close enough to the ground so that she can use her shield to cover Ganon's ground options while staying in the air long enough to throw out a Bair or Fair to cover everything else Ganon can do.

Personally I don't think Jigglypuff's an awful matchup in the slightest, just don't stay in one place too long as that's just begging for Puff to come in and mess with you as she pleases. The fact that Jigglypuff doesn't have a ground game in the slightest prevents this matchup from actually being terrible, which proves my point exactly- characters who can effectively combine aerials low to the ground (which I've said numerous times and you don't even say anything about it once) while using jabs/tilts/shield to beat all of Ganon's ground options are going to give him the most trouble. I can fight walls without too much difficulty. People who sit in the neutral position while using low-lying aerials to keep close to that position give me fits.

Characters whose air games have trouble challenging Ganon are the characters Ganon generally does better against. Bowser is the best example. His ground game is decent. His air game is trash in practically every way. And it's probably the one matchup Ganon could conceivably consider in his favor.

That's because Bowser can't use his aerials to keep low to the ground, he has nothing to compliment his ground game. He can't just throw out a move at will to keep Ganon from using any of his aerials off the ground and to prevent him to being where Ganon is at his best, which is the air. If you have an aerial that's faster than 11 frames and has relatively low landing lag, you can effectively shut Ganon down from being able to use the air while having the ability to use your shield to beat all of Ganon's ground options. You're proving all of my points for me and you're not even realizing it.

 

[Vermanubis]

A2, do you realize that thus far, you've given zero credible references to a usage other than "it has good range and is better on a whiff"? Theoretically, with the argument you're positing now, I could just as easily argue for the ubiquitous utility of UTilt since its range is godly, and is difficult to punish if timed right.

 

[A2ZOMG]

U-tilt is overall more practical than U-smash at least. Mostly garbage yes. U-smash can't even hit anything in singles except a blocked Wizkick or a baited shieldgrab in the ditto basically because of its bad range.

U-tilt does also have some niche utility in edgeguarding Ike (who matters more than Ganon I think we can agree), and the shield damage is ridiculously insane. Yes U-tilt is mostly useless, but the range actually gives it a situation where it has utility. U-smash...doesn't have that.

 

[Vermanubis]

Well, it's become apparent you truly believe these things. The only cure is playing good players. I hate to put that so bluntly, but it's evident your experience with high level players is limited if you believe someone's not going to jump at the opportunity to molest a Ganon who uses DSmash. I know with the competition I face, one whiffed aerial is bad enough, let alone sacrificing valuable time/frames to DSmash. o_O

Basically, you need to not argue for the sake of arguing, A2. You're not doing a whole lot for Ganon's metagame, and it's evident you're not trying to debate, rather, trying to be right. Theorizing can only get one so far before the ideas fall into absurdity. Eventually theories develop so fantastically that they're no longer demonstrable on the level that they're purported to be, which is why it's far more credible to be tested and have a reference of good players.

However, in this scenario, a handful of competent players who face high-level competition have explicitly refuted your points--the only thread by which this argument hangs on is the sheer virtue of having not explicitly tested it.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Verm, I'm well aware that D-smash is a bad move and punishable. The same pretty much goes for the rest of Ganon's moveset which is punishable against people who space well. The point is D-smash is NOT entirely useless and outclassed, because it fits a spacing that none of Ganon's other moves reaches.

I'm not even suggesting it should be one of the most commonly used moves. I'm just saying that it can and should be considered here and there. What has to be fundamentally understood is that Ganon suffers due to a lack of good anti-air options. Given that Ganon doesn't really have much better to work with, D-smash is not useless.

And you tell me that I should play good players. I don't think I've specifically made a point of not doing that. I've met good players in tournament, and my area...while a bit dry competitively, did have ViceGrip and Junk, who are both respectably good players (ViceGrip is not just a top ranked Ness player, his Ganon actually is not bad). I'm pretty well aware from experience that players can capitalize effectively in Brawl if they know that they are doing. Regardless I do think the times I implement D-smash and it hits are not pointless. I'm merely explaining why I've been able to hit other players with D-smash.

Guess what, Dash Attack, Dtilt and Wizkick can all be extremely baitable because your opponent can easily space himself in a position where they can threaten with jabs or a grab as most jabs and all grabs outspace Ganon's and all jabs/grabs are faster than any of Ganon's ground options, meaning that if Ganon doesn't want to get taken up the rear, he'll have to use these before the opponent has the opportunity to close himself in, and if the opponent is smart, this is when he's going to put up his shield, knowing that it beats every single option Ganon has on the ground. The fact that shield wrecks Ganon so hard is what makes Ganon's ground game garbage compared to his air game. Not to mention its a lot easier for the opponent to space himself to bait and punish on the ground than Ganon since Ganon's mobility is so garbage.

How in the world do people just teleport wherever they please to have consistently and properly spaced Jabs or grabs? The only character who both has the Jabs, tilts, and ground mobility to do this is Sheik. And while this does contribute to her being one of Ganon's worst matchups, she also dominates him with far superior aerial spacing (she legitimately has the best vertical spacing in the game, after perhaps Metaknight).

Ganon's air game gets wrecked by shield badly as well, and also is worse at going toe to toe with good poke games, specifically other strong aerial poke games.

If Jigglypuff wants to space full-hop Bairs at my head all day, I say let her. I'm going to roll away, retreat to the ledge, do any sort of maneuver to make sure I'm not a sitting duck for when she decides to close in, bait me, grab me, throw me offstage and gimp me until next week. Ganondorf has so much more mobility and better options in the air than on the ground that I'm going to make the fullest use of them. Jigglypuff's most dangerous when she uses that aerial mobility to crossover while staying close enough to the ground so that she can use her shield to cover Ganon's ground options while staying in the air long enough to throw out a Bair or Fair to cover everything else Ganon can do.

Personally I don't think Jigglypuff's an awful matchup in the slightest, just don't stay in one place too long as that's just begging for Puff to come in and mess with you as she pleases. The fact that Jigglypuff doesn't have a ground game in the slightest prevents this matchup from actually being terrible, which proves my point exactly- characters who can effectively combine aerials low to the ground (which I've said numerous times and you don't even say anything about it once) while using jabs/tilts/shield to beat all of Ganon's ground options are going to give him the most trouble. I can fight walls without too much difficulty. People who sit in the neutral position while using low-lying aerials to keep close to that position give me fits.

Jigg's ground game is probably better than Ganon's. Jiggs has a grab and a good crouch. Her Dash attack is arguably better than Ganon's as well, and her Jab doesn't fail on dodges.

Furthermore, she WANTS you to be near the edge. Furthermore I don't understand why you say Ganon has so many more options and mobility in the air. He's clearly much worse in the air than on the ground. I don't understand why you say Jiggs is dangerous on crossover when that's the EASIEST way for Jiggs to get punished for free if you know how to U-air out of shield.

Jiggs straight up beats Ganon because she's going to eventually shield poke him with her unpunishable B-air, and she's going to gimp him with her D-air once Ganon is offstage, and Ganon can do nothing to anti-air her.

That's because Bowser can't use his aerials to keep low to the ground, he has nothing to compliment his ground game. He can't just throw out a move at will to keep Ganon from using any of his aerials off the ground and to prevent him to being where Ganon is at his best, which is the air. If you have an aerial that's faster than 11 frames and has relatively low landing lag, you can effectively shut Ganon down from being able to use the air while having the ability to use your shield to beat all of Ganon's ground options. You're proving all of my points for me and you're not even realizing it.

That's silly. Bowser isn't any worse at Ganon at using aerials low to the ground (read: they are both ****ing terrible at air to ground options), and you're trying to argue that Ganon has more flexibility in the air than on the ground. This is the main flaw of your arguments.

And you're proving my point once again. Ganon's biggest flaw is the fact he can't anti-air **** in most matchups, except Bowser who is big and just bad enough in the air that it's viable and forces Bowser to play on the ground, where he's a good deal less certain about how shut down Ganon convincingly. Stopping people from spacing good air to ground moves counts as anti-airing, and Ganon SUCKS at stopping people from doing that due to how limited his anti-air options are. most other characters have quick tilts and aerials that can be used early in the opponent's jump to stuff their attempts to space. Ganon doesn't have a move like that.

 

[Heartstring]

a2 really, find somethnig which dsmash can perform a niche role in, in which nothing else in ganon's moveset can beat it and i take everything back, but at the moment, you really arent worthy of that 'smash researcher' tag on your profile