Somethin' stuck in your beard? Share a tip!

[Z1GMA]

Somethin' stuck in your beard?
Well, pluck it out!
(Share a tip)​

If you've got something on your mind, and you don't know
if it's known or not - Post it here.

Or, if it's something that you feel just a few 'Dorfs knows about,
but you want all 'Dorfs to know - Post it here.

Here are a few examples of what you can post in this thread:

• General hints and tips that you want to share.
• Small "finds" that are not worthy of their own thread.
• Stuff that you feel all Ganons should do more/less, and why).
• Important reminders.
• Other in depth thoughts.

.: Useful quotes :.​

Some quick remidners:

The right time to buffer a move after Gerudo is, aprox., when Ganon lowers his hand, at about the beard height.

Murder Rail is safe against almost everyone in the roster if they are hit by it at above 60%. Some characters can't punish it at 45%.

FAir can have its landing lag canceled by stage changing (PS1), platform droping induced by wind (Link's Boom) and stage tilting sometimes(Lylat).

If people don't react immediately after a Gerudo, DSmash is more guaranteed than the Angled FSmash, since it's error window is wider.

Warlock Punsh does NOT have transcendant priority like most of us might think. It don't clashes with Falco's lasers, nor MKs SideB. It, however, has one **** high priority.

BAir and DAir momentum cancels vertical knockback better than UAir, since you can fast fall sooner than UAir. If you can midairjump -> Dark Anvil while receiving vertical knockback, it can save you ever more, but you're in the risk of killing yourself with the midair jump.

DTilt and FTilt are NOT shield safe, since both of them extends Ganon's hurtbox as well as the hitbox. Both of them, however, can not be shield grabbed if the opponent don't buffer the grab immediately after the shield hit.

Ganon's running grab can grab people slightly behind him. The pivot grab also does that. The distance is so small it's almost inexistent.

Ganon's Thunderstorming can be broken by a simple airdodge, even by heavy characters like DDD, if buffered to act like a momentum cancel. If the opponent misses the buffer window, it can hit more than one DAir.

DAir -> USmash -> UAir is guaranteed on some characters but it's NOT error safe. It's error window is of about 2 frames before they can airdodge the first/second hit, buffer included.

The only thing I can think of right now that I'm sure people know, but I never see anyone do, is that you can cut your RCO lag in half after recovering with up B by just ledge hopping back and recovering with side B. This is pretty useful if you're fighting someone like Marth on BF or something, and you need all the help you can get not being punished while trying to get back on stage. I do it almost every time I hit the ledge with up B.

You can cancel recovery carry over lag by landing with an attack, but all of Ganon's attack have bad landing lag.

Some advice on Gerudo'ing

I've heard ppl say "I sometimes do nothing after Flame Choking a new opponent, just to see what they do/how they react, so that I can be more successful with my Gerudo Follow-ups later on in the match".

What I want to say is:
Our Gerudo -> Dtilt is a good tool for observing how they react after a Flame Choke.
If they get sent up/towards you, they obviously tried to roll behind you.
And if they get sent up/away from you, they obviously tried to roll away.
Well, you get the point.

And if you know your %'s, you can even tell if they tried to instantly "Rise up"
(Holding their Control Stick up - Resulting in that they pop up higher than if they would've done nothing with their controller).

One other good thing is that if you're constantly landing garantueed Dtilts, they will have NO CLUE you're observing their actions as they "bounce around" by the power of your mighty boot.
And they will not put as much effort into varying their rolls/get-ups, because you have convinced them that you'll give them a garateed Dtilt every single time.

Make your ban count. There is a large number of stages we do badly on. Remember that there are some matchups where we might ban one of our CPs, such as Norfair against a Diddy.

DO NOT TAUNT. There is no reason to ever taunt when playing competitively. NEVER do it, no matter how tempting it is.

Set up your controls optimally. If you use a GC controller, you have a jump button you don't use. Set it to something else. When I used GC, I had it set to Shield, bypassing the springs in the shoulder buttons.

I've been messing around with platforms as Ganon and I've found that there's a lot of useful things that Ganon can do when he's on a platform:

- Ganon's Bair autocancels if you do it dashing off a platform in Battlefield.
- Similarly, you can run off the side Battlefield platforms and autocancel a rising (i.e. by using your midair jump) Bair or Uair onto the top platform.
- http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=279572 We have better OoS options when on a platform as well (It only takes 4 frames to drop through and use a midair jump compared to 7 frames for jumping)

- Platforms are also sexy because you do neat FoG stuff on it as well.

Up, Side, and Down are moves like any other, and to reject them without understanding what they are is the move of a scrub.
Use them with only one goal, the same respect for any move: Do it, to increase your chance of winning.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=236144

Guys, use more D-smash. I'm serious.

It sucks, but it's actually useful. When you D-smash, Ganon's entire body leans forward, so you can actually bait people by doing reverse D-smashes and you can get people to whiff on it and get hit by the 2nd hit of D-smash, which has a good bit more range than your Jab/F-tilt. And it does 14ish damage fresh if you land the 2nd hit, which is more rewarding than landing a F-tilt that doesn't gimp. And the lag of the 2nd hit is low enough to get away with on whiff (please do not use this on shield, charging F-smash is much more worthwhile on shielding opponents).

And for the purposes of punishing people, the first hit comes out in 15 frames, so it's definitely landable when you have read someone correctly. Landing both hits is about 20 damage, which is only outdamaged by F-smash, sweetspot U-smash, sweetspot D-air, and Warlock Punch. And the thing Ganon lacks is good damage dealers. He can score kills reasonably well when his moves are fresh, so you should try to focus on landing moves in a way that will make it easier to save practical KO moves.

tl;dr Ganon's D-smash is still a bad move, but it is not completely worthless. You definitely should implement it.

Dsmash has its uses.
I like it, but I use it very sparingly.

Aside from what you mentioned;

It can also set up for Edge Guarding at certain times where no other moves can.

I like how it launches the opponent(s) away with their *back* towards the stage.
This is useful for nerfing certain characters' recovery:
Fox can't fly using his DJ+Fair .
Ike can't use his massive Fair to protect himself.

Dsmash also has a lot of AT-potential in it.

U-throw on Battlefield is really awesome. If you put your opponent on the top platform that is.

And the trick to getting success out of D-throw is to mix it up between F-throws. Especially if you grab someone near the ledge. D-throw works best if you can scare your opponent into DIing towards you.

This pretty much goes without saying, but...

Learn every single character's ATs, playstyles, good stages, bad stages, strengths, and weaknesses. Spend at least a full week learning each character. Play some friendlies with them. Note to yourself such things as height of recovery, hitboxes, etc.

Something interesting:

Angle shield down more. It's superior to holding shield in neutral stance in pretty much every way since it actually covers Ganon's entire frame better and doesn't really expose Ganon's top any more.

0:58

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-LFrC7D_lc

Doing some testing on this now. I have no idea how useful this would as an AT, but it LOOKS ****ING COOL. Maybe it has potential for other moves to be used?
(Advanced baiting)

This is just a thing to remember as a player in general.

MIX IT UP

My favorite thing to do is for the first stock, just camp/slowly approach with just jumping around auto cancelling bairs dairs and uairs. Second stock, do nothing. Literally just stand there until I HAVE to react to something. People won't have any idea what you're doing.

Change around how you approach, how you camp, how you react after a hit, how you roll, how you get up from the ledge, how you stand up, what moves you use to space, what you follow up gerudo's with, everything.

If you're ever caught repeating yourself, a smart player will hurt your feelings.

My new favourite Combo on Wario:

The "Hell's Angels Combo"

If we stomp him while he's on his bike, we can buffer a Fsmash for some serious damage.
It works if Wario doesn't tech the ground after the stomp,
which is pretty hard for him since he sort of freezes before he goes down.

23 + 25 = 48% Combo

And at 0%:
Bike Stomp -> Stomp -> Uair = Around 56% damage.

Also, at 0%:
Bike Stomp -> Tipman Bounce -> Stomp -> Uair = Around 61% damage.
(Not very practical, though)

Ganon's footstool is really awesome off stage.
Especially if you combo into it.

Uair, Nair or WKC -> footstool

Ganon's footstool is underestimated imo.

By the way I randomly realized that edgeguarding Ike is piss easy for Ganon.

Most of the time Ike usually must recover with Up-B. You can gimp his SideB the standard way by sitting in front of it. The trick to edgeguarding his Up-B is simply attempting to edgehog it. If you edgehog slightly early, just ledgedrop U-air. Done correctly, you will still be in invincibility frames and he will probably be gimped as he jumps into your foot.

If you feel like being disrespectful when you know his recovery is barely going to make it (or if he's attempting a proper sweetspot regardless), U-tilt edgeguarding also works quite well on Ike and can kill him vertically at like 100ish.

Yeah Breezy, Yink actually did a lot of research on that topic, so you can ask her for more details. Grabbing Fox and Falco from SideB gimps them.

 

[Zeallyx]

Isnt there a Q&A for this?

 

[Z1GMA]

Isnt there a Q&A for this?

We have a Q&A-thread for those kinds of questions.

Stay on topic.

 

[Z1GMA]

Ok, here's a tip just to get things rollin'

This is common knowledge to most Ganons...
When SH Stomp -> Uair'ing the opponent:
After successfully landing the Stomp,
don't jump and then press C-up to Uair.
You're wasting valuable frames.

Instead, right before you land after the SH Stomp, "Soft Tilt" the Control Stick up
and slide your thumb across y/x to the A-button.

 

[Zeallyx]

We have a Q&A-thread for those kinds of questions.

Stay on topic.

Wow..

That reeks of fail.

That aint like you, Z1GMA.

 

[Vermanubis]

Wow..

That reeks of fail.

That aint like you, Z1GMA.

I'm conflicted over you, sir. I'm torn between being altruistic and giving you a functioning brain so you won't be a feculent nuisance anymore. Or going the route of benefitting the boards and just ending you.

 

[Z1GMA]

That's harsch.

 

[Vermanubis]

That's harsch.

I'll admit it was mostly hyperbole for humor/effect, but the core point stands. I have nothing against him personally, but his spamming habits and mindless posts irritate me. I'm sure I'm not the only one.

Anyway, yeah, let's stay on topic.

 

[Zeallyx]

I'm conflicted over you, sir. I'm torn between being altruistic and giving you a functioning brain so you won't be a feculent nuisance anymore. Or going the route of benefitting the boards and just ending you.

I see.

Nice you mentioning a functional brain, as not seeing this thread is irrelevant due to the existence of the Q&A thread, and its concept, is quite silly indeed.

And the use of complicated words and sentance structure really stood out, right until the end of the second to last sentance. You ended it kinda sloppy. But the rest was nice.

7/10.

I'll admit it was mostly hyperbole for humor/effect, but the core point stands. I have nothing against him personally, but his spamming habits and mindless posts irritate me. I'm sure I'm not the only one.

Anyway, yeah, let's stay on topic.

spamming, yes. But mindless, no.

And there's no c in harsh.

 

[Vermanubis]

Words and pithy stab at being glib

You may go now.

 

[Zeallyx]

Same here, though.

Lets go together =D

 

[Z1GMA]

The Q/A-thread is a lot different from this thread, tkontk.
You don't come here to ask questions
- You come here to share thoughts, techs and general tips.

And you don't visit the Q/A-thread to Share thoughts, techs and general tips
- You visit it to ask things about Ganondorf.

The Q/A-thread is a great thread for new Ganons, while this thread fits
the more Ganonish Ganons.

And there's no c in harsh.

Spelling harsh with a 'c', is the same as spelling more "moar".

 

[Zeallyx]

The Q/A-thread is a lot different from this thread, tkontk.
You don't come here to ask questions
- You come here to share thoughts, techs and general tips.

And you don't visit the Q/A-thread to Share thoughts, techs and general tips
- You visit it to ask things about Ganondorf.

The Q/A-thread is a great thread for new Ganons, while this thread fits
the more Ganonish Ganons.

Spelling harsh with a 'c', is the same as spelling more "moar".

Point taken. =)

 

[Zeallyx]

Sorry for the double post, but I have something.. I think:

Basically its:

Dair->Bair->turnaround Ftilt.
(at low(er) percantages)

It deals 51% damage, and as far as I've tested, it seems legit.

Your opinion on this?

 

[Bahamut777]

Some quick remidners:

The right time to buffer a move after Gerudo is, aprox., when Ganon lowers his hand, at about the beard height.

Murder Rail is safe against almost everyone in the roster if they are hit by it at above 60%. Some characters can't punish it at 45%.

FAir can have its landing lag canceled by stage changing (PS1), platform droping induced by wind (Link's Boom) and stage tilting sometimes(Lylat).

If people don't react immediately after a Gerudo, DSmash is more guaranteed than the Angled FSmash, since it's error window is wider.

Warlock Punsh does NOT have transcendant priority like most of us might think. It don't clashes with Falco's lasers, nor MKs SideB. It, however, has one **** high priority.

BAir and DAir momentum cancels vertical knockback better than UAir, since you can fast fall sooner than UAir. If you can midairjump -> Dark Anvil while receiving vertical knockback, it can save you ever more, but you're in the risk of killing yourself with the midair jump.

DTilt and FTilt are NOT shield safe, since both of them extends Ganon's hurtbox as well as the hitbox. Both of them, however, can not be shield grabbed if the opponent don't buffer the grab immediately after the shield hit.

Ganon's running grab can grab people slightly behind him. The pivot grab also does that. The distance is so small it's almost inexistent.

Ganon's Thunderstorming can be broken by a simple airdodge, even by heavy characters like DDD, if buffered to act like a momentum cancel. If the opponent misses the buffer window, it can hit more than one DAir.

DAir -> USmash -> UAir is guaranteed on some characters but it's NOT error safe. It's error window is of about 2 frames before they can airdodge the first/second hit, buffer included.

 

[DLA]

Lol, ZZ Top, I love it.

The only thing I can think of right now that I'm sure people know, but I never see anyone do, is that you can cut your RCO lag in half after recovering with up B by just ledge hopping back and recovering with side B. This is pretty useful if you're fighting someone like Marth on BF or something, and you need all the help you can get not being punished while trying to get back on stage. I do it almost every time I hit the ledge with up B.

I'm assuming that no one has found out how to cancel RCO lag from the ledge yet right?

 

[Z1GMA]

There we go, tkontk. Keep it up.

Baha is on fire! Great post.

EDIT: I agree, DLA. Ppl need to cut their RCO more often.

 

[Zeallyx]

There we go, tkontk. Keep it up.

Hmm, I see its not good enough.

Back to the drawing board!

 

[Terodactyl Yelnats]

You can cancel recovery carry over lag by landing with an attack, but all of Ganon's attack have bad landing lag anyway so that sucks. If you grab somebody with an Aerudo and still have RCO lag there, you won't cancel the lag when you land.

 

[Z1GMA]

I did post the following text in the
Ganon's Techs & Frame Data-thread a while ago.
However, I found it to fit better in here.

Just a random tip I want to throw in here:

I've heard ppl say "I sometimes do nothing after Flame Choking a new opponent, just to see what they do/how they react, so that I can be more successful with my Gerudo Follow-ups later on in the match".

What I want to say is:
Our Gerudo -> Dtilt is a good tool for observing how they react after a Flame Choke.
If they get sent up/towards you, they obviously tried to roll behind you.
And if they get sent up/away from you, they obviously tried to roll away.
Well, you get the point.

And if you know your %'s, you can even tell if they tried to instantly
"Rise up" (Holding their Control Stick up - Resulting in that they pop up higher than if they would've done nothing with their controller).

One other good thing is that if you're constantly landing garantueed Dtilts, they will have NO CLUE you're observing their actions as they "bounce around" by the power of your mighty boot.
And they will not put as much effort into varying their rolls/get-ups, because you have convinced them that you'll give them a garateed Dtilt every single time.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Flamechoking is not the be-all and end all of Ganon techniques, but every Ganon should learn how to do it, and what you can follow things up with. Learn the chart. Print yourself a copy of it, memorize it, it is your best friend.

Do not. Approach characters. With chaingrabs. On the ground. My single largest mistake when I started playing competitively was this.

Just because the matchup is 100:0, does not mean you cannot win it. We are Ganon. We have 3 of them. They are not auto-lose situations. Though playing Olimar feels sometimes like you're being chaingrabbed with smash attacks, just sit back, assess the situation, and play accordingly.

Make your ban count. There is a large number of stages we do badly on. Remember that there are some matchups where we might ban one of our CPs, such as Norfair against a Diddy.

DO NOT TAUNT. There is no reason to ever taunt when playing competitively. NEVER do it, no matter how tempting it is.

Set up your controls optimally. If you use a GC controller, you have a jump button you don't use. Set it to something else. When I used GC, I had it set to Shield, bypassing the springs in the shoulder buttons.

C-Stick is best set to smash or tilt. Smash has the benefit of 1) being something you're more familiar with and 2) making ss and salmon smashes easier. Tilt allows non-fastfall dairs, but jumping happens if you tilt it during frames where you would not be able to buffer a move.

*EDIT* another benefit of tilt stick is when moved diagonally you nair, meaning you can keep your momentum with the control stick.

That's all for now.

 

[Vermanubis]

Just because the matchup is 100:0, does not mean you cannot win it. We are Ganon. We have 3 of them. They are not auto-lose situations. Though playing Olimar feels sometimes like you're being chaingrabbed with smash attacks, just sit back, assess the situation, and play accordingly.


That's all for now.

*wipes tear*

 

[Clai]

I've been messing around with platforms as Ganon and I've found that there's a lot of useful things that Ganon can do when he's on a platform:

- Ganon's Bair autocancels if you do it dashing off a platform in Battlefield.
- Similarly, you can run off the side Battlefield platforms and autocancel a rising (i.e. by using your midair jump) Bair or Uair onto the top platform.
- http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=279572 We have better OoS options when on a platform as well (It only takes 4 frames to drop through and use a midair jump compared to 7 frames for jumping)
-By this token, I should experiment to see if you can save frames on platforms such as Lylat's by using the Shield-drop, immediately canceling it with that platform auto-land thing and then using a move compared to shield-dropping (This is just theory, it might not be true) It doesn't work.
- Platforms are also sexy because you do neat FoG stuff on it as well

I also plan on having a small update to my Ganon on the Ledge guide. With it having some more up-to-date information (I finally figured out how to do lagless Bairs onto the stage ), we can have it out to share with the new influx of Ganon mains. IMO, that guide needs to be stickied as a well-written guide is a well-written guide and I don't want people missing out on it.

I can't believe I missed this the first time through:

DO NOT TAUNT. There is no reason to ever taunt when playing competitively. NEVER do it, no matter how tempting it is.

You sir, are not a man and shall be castrated as such. No reason to taunt. Hmph.

 

[SLASHinator]

The right time to buffer a move after Gerudo is, aprox., when Ganon lowers his hand, at about the beard height.

This is something I have been looking for a very long time. 'Ending frames of the gerudo' is very vague yet used so very often...




Something I've been looking for a while too but only found out recently, is Ganondorf's 0-to-death on Wario. On FD, air release Wario and regrab when Wario's at the peak of his jump. Press a immediately for one pummel but only from about 20-30%, else you'll ground release Wario. When you're at the edge, end with a dair from air release.

 

[Terodactyl Yelnats]

Fast mashers can get out of a grab using only one pummel at 80%

 

[SLASHinator]

Well, that's something you'll find out when you get there (ie, land the grab on Wario). In general, though, it's at around 30% that you can grab and pummel a Wario without him ground releasing.
Not everyone's nick is Ally.

 

[Terodactyl Yelnats]

Mashing isn't a skill, everybody can do it. Just grab release chaingrab them without pummels unless they're 60% or over.

 

[Z1GMA]

Mashing isn't a skill

True that.
But have you seen Boss' Down+b-recovery with Luigi?
Without DJ'ing. Sick.

 

[PK-ow!]

Up, Side, and Down are moves like any other, and to reject them without understanding what they are is the move of a scrub.
Use them with only one goal, the same respect for any move: Do it, to increase your chance of winning.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=236144

 

[Z1GMA]

Up, Side, and Down are moves like any other, and to reject them without understanding what they are is the move of a scrub.
Use them with only one goal, the same respect for any move: Do it, to increase your chance of winning.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=236144

Oh, I remember this, PK.

Everyone should read it when they have got time.

 

[Hobs]

Fast mashers can get out of a grab using only one pummel at 80%

^ Especially when they realize they're getting set up for a spike.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Guys, use more D-smash. I'm serious.

It sucks, but it's actually useful. When you D-smash, Ganon's entire body leans forward, so you can actually bait people by doing reverse D-smashes and you can get people to whiff on it and get hit by the 2nd hit of D-smash, which has a good bit more range than your Jab/F-tilt. And it does 14ish damage fresh if you land the 2nd hit, which is more rewarding than landing a F-tilt that doesn't gimp. And the lag of the 2nd hit is low enough to get away with on whiff (please do not use this on shield, charging F-smash is much more worthwhile on shielding opponents).

And for the purposes of punishing people, the first hit comes out in 15 frames, so it's definitely landable when you have read someone correctly. Landing both hits is about 20 damage, which is only outdamaged by F-smash, sweetspot U-smash, sweetspot D-air, and Warlock Punch. And the thing Ganon lacks is good damage dealers. He can score kills reasonably well when his moves are fresh, so you should try to focus on landing moves in a way that will make it easier to save practical KO moves.

tl;dr Ganon's D-smash is still a bad move, but it is not completely worthless. You definitely should implement it.

 

[Z1GMA]

Dsmash has its uses.
I like it, but I use it very sparingly.

Aside from what you mentioned;

It can also set up for Edge Guarding at certain times where no other moves can.

I like how it launches the opponent(s) away with their *back* towards the stage.
This is useful for nerfing certain characters' recovery:
Fox can't fly using his DJ+Fair .
Ike can't use his massive Fair to protect himself.

Dsmash also has a lot of AT-potential in it.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

One very simple thing to always remember: Shieldgrab doesn't afraid of anything. We have awful grab range, true, but a free 13% from Fthrow or a setup for another move is nothing to scoff at.

Also use pivot grab more. Run away, they will chase and try to catch you, but you pivot grab them.

 

[Zeallyx]

One very simple thing to always remember: Shieldgrab doesn't afraid of anything. We have awful grab range, true, but a free 13% from Fthrow or a setup for another move is nothing to scoff at.

Also use pivot grab more. Run away, they will chase and try to catch you, but you pivot grab them.

The second is prolly only legit when facing another ganon/falcon. =P

 

[A2ZOMG]

U-throw on Battlefield is really awesome. If you put your opponent on the top platform that is.

And the trick to getting success out of D-throw is to mix it up between F-throws. Especially if you grab someone near the ledge. D-throw works best if you can scare your opponent into DIing towards you.

 

[Clai]

And for the purposes of punishing people, the first hit comes out in 15 frames, so it's definitely landable when you have read someone correctly. Landing both hits is about 20 damage, which is only outdamaged by F-smash, sweetspot U-smash, sweetspot D-air, and Warlock Punch. And the thing Ganon lacks is good damage dealers. He can score kills reasonably well when his moves are fresh, so you should try to focus on landing moves in a way that will make it easier to save practical KO moves.

tl;dr Ganon's D-smash is still a bad move, but it is not completely worthless. You definitely should implement it.

You forgot the part where the opponent can just DI out of or airdodge the second hit and punish Ganon for landing the first hit.

The second hit of D-smash is pretty good and can lead to some cool things, but the first hit is completely trash. As a punishing move, D-smash is worse than useless.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I don't think every character in the game is actually able to DI and airdodge out of D-smash, and besides most people aren't going to be doing that consistently, except the Olimar mains lol.

 

[Bahamut777]

EVERY character can, and WILL sdi out of DSmash's first hit. Even at 0% you can avoid it.

 

[Z1GMA]

It takes many games Vs Ganon to consistantly be able to airdodge out of his Dsmash.
And, you can't DI out of it (on reaction).