Solo DThrow Chaingrab -- I really need to massively revise this

[EverAlert]

Late as balls, thanks to a combination of my computer breaking, my laptop hdd usb adapter thing taking forever to ship, and laziness, but it's finally here. The Solo DThrow Chaingrab Percentage List.

The laptop's in the shop, I can access my old files again; things are looking up! For now it's just an initial list of percentages and ways to escape, but over time I'll evolve this into something special, starting with the walking chaingrab percentages (<3 Hylian). Maybe even a general chaingrabbing guide, but I don't want to get too ambitious at the moment. xP



CHAINGRABBING

These figures assume you start the Chaingrab at 0% with DThrow fresh (not in the stale move queue at all). Obviously enough, the higher damage the character has when you start the Chaingrab fresh, the less you can Chaingrab them (higher start + fresh throw = more knockback = escaping lower).

The percentages look all out of whack, but it makes sense when you consider each character has a different weight, fall speed, size, shape and animation, among other attributes.

Bowser - 95% [30T]
Captain Falcon - 98% [31T]
Charizard - 92% [29T]
Diddy Kong - 62% [18T]
Donkey Kong - 65% [19T]
Falco - 87% [27T]
Fox - 87% [27T]
Ganondorf - 81% [25T]
Ice Climbers - 65% [19T]
Ike - 65% [19T]
Ivysaur - 62% [18T]
Jigglypuff - 16% [3T]
King Dedede - 103% [33T]
Kirby - 34% [8T]
Link - 70% [21T]
Lucario - 31% [7T]
Lucas - 76% [23T]
Luigi - 59% [17T]
Mario - 65% [19T]
Marth - 31% [7T]
Meta Knight - 65% [19T]
Mr. Game & Watch - 57% [16T]
Ness - 54% [15T]
Olimar - 37% [9T]
Peach - 24% [5T]
Pikachu - 70% [21T]
Pit - 59% [17T]
R.O.B. - 48% [13T]
Samus - 31% [7T]
Sheik - 90% [28T]
Snake - 84% [26T]
Sonic - 57% [16T]
Squirtle - 68% [20T]
Toon Link - 48% [13T]
Wario - 73% [22T]
Wolf - 98% [31T]
Yoshi - 81% [25T]
Zelda - 40% [10T]
Zero Suit Samus - 59% [17T]

I'm not sure about Mr. Game & Watch, not because he's tricky or anything, but because while compiling this list I didn't have my original document on hand. All I know is that he was one throw less than either Ice Climbers or Zero Suit Samus. Of course, I'll update with the correct value when I've had a chance to look over the old document.



ESCAPING

As a general rule, characters should DI Up-Away to escape the DThrow Chaingrab faster (though a few exceptions exist; can't remember who they are, don't have it on hand etc, but DIing as above is still good). The moves listed here also help escape MUCH earlier than simply jumping out, usually because of invincibility.

Some moves aren't as useful to escape as you'd think. Generally a move has to either have invincibility starting at frame 1 (preferably with a hitbox at the end, ala Fox's or Wolf's Shines), or move you completely out of the way really fast (within a few frames).

Fox - Shine (DSpecial)
Jigglypuff - Rest (DSpecial) or Double Jump, DJ preferred
Lucas - Double Jump DAir
Marth - Dolphin Slash (USpecial) or Double Jump, DJ preferred
Ness - Double Jump DAir
Peach - Float (Hold Jump)
Snake - Grenade (NSpecial), won't get you out immediately though.
Wolf - Shine (DSpecial)
Yoshi - Reverse Double Jump (Hold Away)
Zero Suit Samus - Flip Jump (DSpecial)

If a character is not listed here, all they can do to escape is DI well and jump out.



TODO

1a. Walking chaingrab percentages.
1b. Regrab knockback ranges.
1c. Complete frame data.
2a. Video supplement.
2b. In-depth data for each character.



TL;DR

- Yes, these are correct.
- Yes, I double-checked them.
- Yes, I accounted for DI.
- Yes, I checked for moves to escape with. (I actually did a LOT of impromptu frame data for other characters because of this, gotta love having no immediate access to the internet.)
- Yes, sometimes you have to be dang-near frame perfect to pull off a regrab on some characters at higher percentages.



... I think that's everything. :/

 

[Attila_]

wow EA, freakin amazing. i had no idea ics were THAT broken... definately worth the wait...

presumably to grab someone that many times you need to buffer a dash grab?

 

[Terra~]

Yes, excellent work :O
Snake goes that high >_>! I fail D:

 

[choknater]

wow! those percentages are amazing

thanks a bunch dude...

they go so high D:

ahhh but being frame perfect is hard lol

i can probably just try to buffer the dash grabs

but man, yeah

popo dthrow cg man... thats amazing

its like justin wong's cyclops

NEVA OVA TILL ITS OVA!!!!

 

[IxxI]

Yes, finally. I love you.

I was surprised with some of the numbers.


Edit:
Wait, those chaingrabbing percentages are accounted for with DI right? I'm just a little confused at the moment because you stated in the "Escaping" section that "If a character is not listed here, all they can do to escape is DI well and jump out."

 

[r3d d09]

some pretty epic stuff man, kudos. a plethora of kudos :D

 

[Diddyknight]

This needs to be sticked ^_^

 

[theunabletable]

Wait... you can CG CF 31 times as SoPo? Or am I misinterpreting this? If-so, jesus the ICs are broken.

 

[momochuu]

Good **** e-alert. I might sticky this. Nice thread.

 

[Jupz]

Yeah nice thread, never knew you could CG some characters so high

 

[Sky`]

When do you ever get enough Stage space to do all that. x]

 

[Hylian]

When do you ever get enough Stage space to do all that. x]

This is where the walking CGs come in.

Also, if your dthrow is stale you can just let them go at the edge and try to grab them again for more damage.

 

[lain]

I'm sorry but there's no possible way most of those are correct. I've tried solo popo buffered grabs but so many character can just jump out at quite low percents.

 

[Sky`]

And you'd be in a really bad spot if you were single ic's with them having zero percent. X]

 

[Hylian]

I'm sorry but there's no possible way most of those are correct. I've tried solo popo buffered grabs but so many character can just jump out at quite low percents.

Yeah I was thinking the same thing, but it might have to do with the staleness of your dthrow. Like how they didn't find pikas cg's till way late because staleness makes things weird.

 

[lain]

Yeah but when most characters (like snake, diddy kong, lucario, the list goes on and on) can jump out at ~0, **** doesn't do much.

 

[KRDsonic]

I was thinking the same thing :/ There's a high number listed for Bowser, maybe I do the chain grab wrong or something, but he's always been able to get out of my SoPo chain grab even from 0%

 

[EverAlert]

Done correctly, no character can jump out at 0, not even Jiggs. Bowser takes like 20-something throws before a buffered dashgrab stops working.

Realise this list is based upon the realm of possibility, not practicality. I'm leaving it up to the players to decide how far is practical, this list is to let people know what's possible within the limits of only the game itself.

Staleness does affect how far you can chain them, I mentioned that in the post. The figures assume you CG from 0 constantly, so from throw 10 onward your DThrow is fully stale. Yes, for most characters this means there isn't a stretch of land in the game long enough for the full CG (it also means starting the CG fresh at not-0 percents makes some of this impossible), but as I said before, this is a list of what's possible; I don't want to keep potentially useful information from anyone just because I personally thought it useless. (Even when it's something as minor as the solo dthrow CG lol.)

btw, in most cases at higher percentages you can't simply buffer a dashgrab (it'll miss), but it's still possible to regrab before they can react by waiting slightly and then dashgrabbing (or even buffering a dash, and timing the grab). This should explain some of the ridiculously high figures.

Anyway I tested this frame-exact with perfect DI and such using the frame advance code, it's legit.

Sorry for the confusion, I should have explained all this in the original post.

[Edit: Decided to list knockback ranges at some point, that'll probably be more immediately useful to everyone. :/]



Sign of Madness - That's right, 31 times. xP

IxxI - Yep, DI is accounted for.

Everyone else, thanks for the compliments.

Typing this all up by Wii Remote sucks. D:

 

[Hylian]

Wow then...that's pretty cool o.o.

 

[r3d d09]

Wii mote. You're insane. I'd hate to do that.

 

[Firestormzero0]

lol wow. these are amazing numbers. Im proud to be an IC lol.

 

[l!nk_aut]

i just can´t believe those numbers xD

 

[r3d d09]

so i think E_Alert is the best Sopo CG'er

 

[lain]

Snake can jump out at 0%. There are others.

I just don't believe this list. Sorry

 

[swordgard]

Snake can jump out at 0%. There are others.

I just don't believe this list. Sorry

I believe so too, but you know what, i may have time to test frame by frame this weekend, if i do il get the vid up so that we can all agree.

 

[The Truth!]

Instead of DIing up and away, try testing by having them DI directly towards and trying to footstool. I know ICs dthrow is a lil different from pikas, but if youre in range to be foostooled then theyll be able to escape way earlier (it only takes one frame to jump I believe). I can't recall if ICs grab puts them in range of that during their grabs.

We also found this to be odd and unexplainable, but sometimes buffering a jump twice allows people to escape. So try that too.

I would continue testing though, the end list for our throws ended up looking a lot different then our first. Having multiple testers is also good because we had disagreement that helped make the list better.

Edit:

I'm sorry but there's no possible way most of those are correct. I've tried solo popo buffered grabs but so many character can just jump out at quite low percents.

It could technicaly be possible. The only thing is I really dont think you can buffer a sopo grab that will allow you to regrab since you have to walk to do it (could be wrong about that). If thats the case pulling some of these off could be very difficult if not impossible.

 

[r3d d09]

It's like Hylian and his Desync method. quite difficult

 

[EverAlert]

so i think E_Alert is the best Sopo CG'er

Haha, thanks, but that is far from true. I have to say, though, my solo chaingrabbing has dramatically improved since starting this.

Snake can jump out at 0%. There are others.

I just don't believe this list. Sorry

Wat. You think my list, which consists of maximum percentages, is wrong based on the assumption that some characters can jump out at 0%? That doesn't even make sense.

And no, he can't. Nor can any other character, period.

Here's the data for Snake. Hitbox is on frame 42, Ice Climbers can act on frame 57, Snake can act on frame 62. The idea is that I throw Snake, have Snake DI/escape properly and whatnot, and initiate a dashgrab on the frames Ice Climbers are active (counting grab animation frame 1 as the first frame, not the 1 frame of dash before it; buffered dashgrabs don't have the 1 frame of dash), starting from the first frame they're active (57), until they miss. For the record, I tested every throw for every character this way.

Format: frameInitiated grabConnected (frameGrabbed)
57 Y (64)
58 Y (65)
59 Y (66)
60 N

Which is a 3-frame grab window. At best, Snake can drop a Grenade, but with a 180-frame fuse it has been long-established that it's quite possible to solo chaingrab Snake out of the blast radius before it explodes.

I'm sure I don't need to say that -- using a character where you occasionally need to be literally frame-perfect with the most important facet of their game, and frequently frame-strict -- a 3-frame window should be easy for most Ice Climbers mains. Try harder.

And here's the full (summarised) data for all characters:

Format: name - frameActive / regrabWindow [regrabWindow2] (note)
Bowser - 65 / 60-61 [2]
Captain Falcon - 64 / 52-62 [11] (ground)
Charizard - 61 / 55-57 [3]
Diddy Kong - 55 / 47-50 [4]
Donkey Kong - 63 / 58 [1]
Falco - 55 / 42-52 [11] (ground)
Fox - 54 / 41-46 [7] (ground)
Ganondorf - 66 / 55-69 [15] (ground)
Ice Climbers - 55 / 47-49 [3]
Ike - 59 / 53-54 [2]
Ivysaur - 57 / 50-54 [5]
Jigglypuff - 36 / 35-41 [7]
King Dedede - 62 / 56-57 [2]
Kirby - 50 / 40-45 [6]
Link - 59 / 52-56 [5]
Lucario - 57 / 50-51 [2]
Lucas - 55 / 48-49 [2]
Luigi - 56 / 49-50 [2]
Mario - 57 / 50-52 [3]
Marth - 53 / 44-45 [2]
Meta Knight - 50 / 40-46 [7]
Mr. Game & Watch - 48 / 38-43 [6]
Ness - 55 / 48-50 [3]
Olimar - 51 / 42-45 [4]
Peach - 54 / 46-48 [3]
Pikachu - 50 / 40-45 [6]
Pit - 55 / 48-50 [3]
R.O.B. - 60 / 53-54 [2]
Samus - 60 / 54-55 [2]
Sheik - 56 / 43-56 [14] (ground)
Snake - 62 / 57-59 [3]
Sonic - 56 / 48-51 [4]
Squirtle - 48 / 38-44 [7]
Toon Link - 55 / 47-49 [3]
Wario - 60 / 54-55 [2]
Wolf - 62 / 51-54 [4] (ground)
Yoshi - 60 / 54-57 [4]
Zelda - 52 / 43-48 [6]
Zero Suit Samus - 51 / 41-43 [3]

Characters marked with "ground" hit the ground during hitstun and therefore suffer landing lag, in most cases making their regrab window much larger.

If you want to check the frame data thread, you'll see that in all cases the first regrab initiation frame is the same as the IASA on that character, meaning -- nevermind merely being regrabbed period -- all characters can be buffer-dashgrabbed from 0%. The closest you get to "can jump straight out" is just DK, but he can still be grabbed, sorry.

Naturally, I invite anyone who wants to test this to do so, the best form of confirmation is personal experience.

Dude, I know you're the best Ice Climbers player in the world, and I know you know more about this character than most Ice Climbers players combined. And I know you like reminding us all of that, which is why I'm saying this. Nobody, including myself, doubts your expertise; I would not be arguing this if I wasn't 100% confident in my research. If there was so much as a shred of doubt, I would just conclude that there was probably something I missed that you didn't, apologise for inaccuracy, and do more tests.

However, I am 100% certain I am correct, and I will keep giving you more data until you're satisfied with the accuracy of this list.

Instead of DIing up and away, try testing by having them DI directly towards and trying to footstool. I know ICs dthrow is a lil different from pikas, but if youre in range to be foostooled then theyll be able to escape way earlier (it only takes one frame to jump I believe). I can't recall if ICs grab puts them in range of that during their grabs.

I just tested that at your suggestion; it doesn't seem to make a difference. Even Lucario, who I believe has the most vertical trajectory and the best frame advantage of all characters off Ice Climbers' DThrow, can't escape this way.

We also found this to be odd and unexplainable, but sometimes buffering a jump twice allows people to escape. So try that too.

Is it character-specific? I doubt it, so I only tested it on a few characters. Maybe I'm doing it wrong? During tests I was waiting till about 5 frames before the end of hitstun, then inputting jump-release-jump over the next few frames. It didn't seem to change anything.

It could technicaly be possible. The only thing is I really dont think you can buffer a sopo grab that will allow you to regrab since you have to walk to do it (could be wrong about that). If thats the case pulling some of these off could be very difficult if not impossible.

This. 100this's. DThrow -> Wait a few frames after IASA -> Dashgrab. It is NOT possible to get the full chaingrabs in most cases with buffer-dashgrabs alone.

 

[swordsaint]

*knows ea in person*

Haha, thanks, but that is far from true. I have to say, though, my solo chaingrabbing has dramatically improved since starting this.

and yet i 3 stocked you with fox <3

 

[Attila_]

and yet your snake lost in melbourne to a gw...

you thinking of taking up ics, ss? theyre actually quite difficult to use, so you may want to reconsider... and for the record, ea is amazing. espc in teams

 

[lain]

Interesting then, ea.

I'll have to look into this. Cause if so this is ridiculous.

 

[swordgard]

(counting grab animation frame 1 as the first frame, not the 1 frame of dash before it; buffered dashgrabs don't have the 1 frame of dash)

Quote from ea

This is where we failed at cging i think and why we thought it was impossible.

We either
A)Buffered grab and dash, which doesnt work on frame one
B) Buffered dash then grabbed out of the 3 frame window.

The few times we could have actually suceeded we would have probably blamed on the other not jumping at the right time, while in fact there is a smallw indow where we can cg no matter what !

So this actually requires alot more timing than i expected but hey, wtf ics are OP lmao.


EDIT: Does these include a final fsmash or something? If not, howd id you end your throws.

 

[EverAlert]

Scott - Haha, have I even played your Fox? xD I wouldn't be surprised though, you're just a plain better player than me.

Attila - Mad rep, dude. We totally rock in teams. We really should team as much as possible, too bad you're interstate.

Lain - Yeah it's pretty ridiculous, I was surprised at most of these myself. Hopefully people will make good use of this information. :3

Swordgard - No finishers, the percentages are based on throw damage alone. btw, Note that it includes damage off the throw you can't regrab off of (all throws you can regrab + 1). Of course this could be any throw, but I thought the stale DThrow would be best since it leads into other stuff (smashes/aerials/etc).

 

[swordgard]

Scott - Haha, have I even played your Fox? xD I wouldn't be surprised though, you're just a plain better player than me.

Attila - Mad rep, dude. We totally rock in teams. We really should team as much as possible, too bad you're interstate.

Lain - Yeah it's pretty ridiculous, I was surprised at most of these myself. Hopefully people will make good use of this information. :3

Swordgard - No finishers, the percentages are based on throw damage alone. btw, Note that it includes damage off the throw you can't regrab off of (all throws you can regrab + 1). Of course this could be any throw, but I thought the stale DThrow would be best since it leads into other stuff (smashes/aerials/etc).

If it turns out it doesnt lead to a smash at those %, then we have to use fthrow which will be non stale and allows for greater percent.


And yeah after testing, im pretty sure my explanation makes sense as to why it seemed "impossible".

 

[EverAlert]

Yeah it's quite common for them to be out of range of an fsmash at higher percents, ZSS for example is out of range past 30 or so. I figured I'd do all the in-depth testing for that later since it's very much character-specific and frame advantage type stuff.

I believe in most cases you can still Dash Attack -> UAir Combo them if the fsmash misses though, or even just straight UAir.

 

[TKD]

This is very interesting. It's walk-only right? I'm assuming that the IC doesn't need to dash during any grab to perform the chain-grabs until the listed %s.

PS: If you DIed up+away as the chain-grabbed char, you need to test all of these again while they DI up+towards.

 

[r3d d09]

This is very interesting. It's walk-only right? I'm assuming that the IC doesn't need to dash during any grab to perform the chain-grabs until the listed %s.

PS: If you DIed up+away as the chain-grabbed char, you need to test all of these again while they DI up+towards.

if I'm not mistaken, i believe he did this.

 

[DZhou]

You're planning a vid of the solo D-Throw chain right?

 

[r3d d09]

for once, i'm not asking for a video xD.

another thing, what if you pummel once or twice before Dthrowing? like d3 grab. it increases the amount of times you can grab.

 

[swordgard]

Id just like to confirm the %, i did it irl today. So yeah it works, the timing is semi-strict.