Event - MLG Anaheim 2014 So now that we know MLG hosts ridiculous smash tournaments...

[Overswarm]

That was true, but there were about 80 upsets.

Make your list sir

 

[Dark 3nergy]

lol there were not 80 upsets, they were not playin on wifi baby

 

[ADHD]

lol there were not 80 upsets, they were not playin on wifi baby

TV lag is worse than wifi lag. It's a very uncomfortable, fuzzy feeling and it does mess with technical stunts.

@ KB, yeah.. I've played mcgriddle, esam, ook, krystedez, and judge.

 

[Eddie G]

@ KB, yeah.. I've played mcgriddle, esam, ook, krystedez, and judge.

Ok, good. Recently?

 

[King~]

who did judge upset?

im lost

 

[iRJi]

prob is how do you display results? recording doesnt prove anything

The best bet would be to use a Splitter, and hook up all 3 at the same time. Another way would be to get about 10 people and play on all the TVs for variable results. The splitter is the best bet actually.

If yo use a 4 way splitter, preferably this one: http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=4049758 (There is a cheaper version of this for $20.00, but that only supports composite plugs)

You hook up each TV/monitor threw this, and by doing that it will display each TV simultaneously. From there, you should be able to actually test each TV at the same time. Another way is to just use Wiis and move at the same time with them, but the splitter makes it a lot easier. HOWEVER, if you use this splitter specifically, you won't b able to use a normal CRT since this is component cable active.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

no its not lol

Wifi lag is much worse because you get pockets of lag. And varying degrees of lag that are due to several factors. 2 of common factors are;

Distance data is xfer'ed between opponents
ISP
router also plays a massive factor

This was recorded live off my standard tv

this was recorded live off a HDTV. While it doesnt visually display the lag[the y splitters direct feed from the wii into the recorder], both me and keen are affected by it cuz we're looking at 1-2 delay on da HDTV and show this thru how we're playing in the match.

dis is a match recorded live on wifi. All 3 players connection effect how the match is ultimately played.

still tho, i dont have da prop equipment to ultimately prove what is worse. So view with a grain of salt

The best bet would be to use a Splitter, and hook up all 3 at the same time. Another way would be to get about 10 people and play on all the TVs for variable results. The splitter is the best bet actually.

If yo use a 4 way splitter, preferably this one: http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=4049758 (There is a cheaper version of this for $20.00, but that only supports composite plugs)

You hook up each TV/monitor threw this, and by doing that it will display each TV simultaneously. From there, you should be able to actually test each TV at the same time. Another way is to just use Wiis and move at the same time with them, but the splitter makes it a lot easier. HOWEVER, if you use this splitter specifically, you won't b able to use a normal CRT since this is component cable active.

kk i'll have to see if i can host a small smashfest for trying dis out then. But i'll need my paycheck first obvi lol

 

[iiDEMIGODz]

TV lag is worse than wifi lag. It's a very uncomfortable, fuzzy feeling and it does mess with technical stunts.

Um..what? I'd take consistent 1-3 frames of lag (on HDTVs) over lag spikes and more frames of lag on Wifi.

 

[sunshade]

someone explain to me how adding stages mk is better on makes him worse

A stage does not help a character (assuming 1 ban is allowed in the tournament) unless it is better than either the character's best stage or second best stage.

For Metaknight his best stage is Rainbow Cruise and his second best stage is Brinstar. If we were to add jungle japes to the stage list (a stage metaknight does not play poorly on) would it help him?

No it would not, because the opponent will ban Rainbow cruise (the majority of the time) and then Metaknight will pick Brinstar (the majority of the time). Take note of how Jungle Japes while not a bad stage for Metaknight did not actually help him.

On most EC stage lists* both Rainbow cruise and Brinstar are legal meaning the addition of stages such as Pokemon stadium 2, jungle japes, pictochat, Green greens, Luigi's mansion**, and Yoshi's island(melee) dont actually help Metaknight.

Those stages however do help other members of the cast to combat Metaknight and deal with other match-ups. This is why adding stages make Metaknight worse (well they don't really make him worse but they make other characters better while adding more depth/diversity to the game)

* I checked the following threads to get support for this statement.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=207627 (both)
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=269875 (both)
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=262994 (both)
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=277644 (both)
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=274870 (both)
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=276034 (both)
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=277233 (only stage list without both)

**Luigi's Mansion is up to dabate depending on who you ask

The lag affects everyone, dude. Tyrant claimed it RIGHT after Orlando (don't misconstrude it as some stupid john for columbus) that the lag was constantly affecting him, and mew2king as well. I can contend for that, it was harder to do anything.. really.

I dont deny that lag is annoying and makes the game more difficult to play, however I will strongly oppose you saying that the upsets were due to the lag.

I want to hear the name of 3 people who you would be willing to walk up to and say "your upset was because of 1-2 frames of lag, not your personal skill".

People keep saying the lag caused issues but I dont hear anyone saying it caused the lesser player to win and then giving examples.

And those are just FOUR + stages. Metaknight ***** those characters anyway, regardless of if they take a game or not on some janky *** stage, they're still going to lose. Who cares about falco at mlg rofl, he can't even start in a proper area.

see what I said to Orion.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

The only characters that should really be complaining about TV lag are Ice Climbers since, unless they practiced with no sound and eyes closed, need SOME sort of cue, whether visual or audible. Nobody else is really frame perfect so it really shouldn't make a difference with the buffering system Brawl has.

 

[Pierce7d]

False. You do not understand high level Marth then. Either that, or I personally fail completely on lag, but other Marth's reported similar complaints. After being unable to perform with Marth, I used only MK on laggy TVs.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

**** that sucks. I have an LCD at home so I am used to the lag 100%. Maybe thats why I'm placing so good and causing so many "Upsets" because I am clearly a lesser skilled player than most others *Looks with disgust at ADHD*

 

[fkacyan]

Results from Taste of Armageddon - June 12th - New Jersey
1: Nairo ($225.00)
2: Shadow ($112.50)
3: Atomsk ($67.50)
4: Jash ($45.00)
5: Yes!
5: Cheese
7: Orion
7: Rizakor
9: Inui
9: Penta
9: Pwii
9: Sagat

Using this stagelist:



That is what you get with EC ruleset. Does everyone think it is just a coincidence that the region with the most conservative stagelist also is the region most populated with MKs? This was from a tournament this past weekend, and IIRC there was a tournament just a month or two back with like 7/8 MKs in the top in NY/NJ area.

I'm still trying to figure out how they tricked so many people into believing that narrowing the stagelist actually helped other characters when MK still has an advantage on every stage they use.

HERP DE. DERP.

CORRELATION IS CAUSATION GUYS, HEARD IT FROM AZ FIRST.

Seriously, you can't actually believe that the stagelist is the only factor that causes MK to do well, right?

EDIT: Derp, I guess being taken to the first unread post has its drawbacks, like being several pages late

 

[TP]

Ganon's choke followups were noticeably harder on the MLG TVs. I was not the only Ganon to notice this. It was almost enough to make Ganon unviable.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Most of you are missing the point I was trying to raise. The EC players are trying to make people believe their stage list reduces MKs dominance, yet not only is there no proof of this at all, but quite the opposite, the EC is the most MK infested region in the country.

If the stages aren't the factor causing the MK infestation on the EC, then at best stages are a negligible indicator of MKs ability to dominate and people should not be making claims like "MLGs stagelist will cause MK to do exceptionally better then other stagelists".

People can't have it both ways. When MK dominates a region with a narrow stagelist suddenly stages don't have anything to do with it, but when MK fails to dominate MLG, I'm still being told to wait and that the domination will come in time because of the stages. It is very hypocritical.

On most EC stage lists* both Rainbow cruise and Brinstar are legal meaning the addition of stages such as Pokemon stadium 2, jungle japes, pictochat, Green greens, Luigi's mansion**, and Yoshi's island(melee) dont actually help Metaknight.

Those stages however do help other members of the cast to combat Metaknight and deal with other match-ups. This is why adding stages make Metaknight worse (well they don't really make him worse but they make other characters better while adding more depth/diversity to the game)

Exactly what I've been saying. Well put. MK does not get enhanced when he already has the advantage on every stage (plus his best stages are arguably already on in every single ruleset, even the conservative ones).

 

[SFA Smiley]

SBR UPDATE on the stage list

75m, Rumble Falls, and Big Blue are legal, now. Logic is that these stages are so broken that nobody is at an advantage check the SBR thread for full details.

Spoiler

lol

 

[AlphaZealot]

You are aware the BBR is not responsible for the MLG stagelist, right?

 

[Masky]

The only characters that should really be complaining about TV lag are Ice Climbers since, unless they practiced with no sound and eyes closed, need SOME sort of cue, whether visual or audible. Nobody else is really frame perfect so it really shouldn't make a difference with the buffering system Brawl has.

It makes a huge difference for characters that rely on a quick reaction time, such as MK Wario DDD Snake... actually everyone lol

Other characters have frame-specific things though too, such as Wario's chaingrab, which we couldn't even do on a normal TV

 

[ADHD]

Ok, good. Recently?

Yeah, what are we getting at? lol

ESAM, perhaps.

 

[fkacyan]

Most of you are missing the point I was trying to raise. The EC players are trying to make people believe their stage list reduces MKs dominance, yet not only is there no proof of this at all, but quite the opposite, the EC is the most MK infested region in the country.

If the stages aren't the factor causing the MK infestation on the EC, then at best stages are a negligible indicator of MKs ability to dominate and people should not be making claims like "MLGs stagelist will cause MK to do exceptionally better then other stagelists".

People can't have it both ways. When MK dominates a region with a narrow stagelist suddenly stages don't have anything to do with it, but when MK fails to dominate MLG, I'm still being told to wait and that the domination will come in time because of the stages. It is very hypocritical.



Exactly what I've been saying. Well put. MK does not get enhanced when he already has the advantage on every stage (plus his best stages are arguably already on in every single ruleset, even the conservative ones).

In this post: AZ compares a local to a national!

Anyways, you've grossly misinterpreted the argument, which is actually a counterargument and not a standalone one. Specifically, the argument that has been made for the MLG stagelist is this:

it encourages character diversity! herp

Counter:

MK does really well on every stage you're saying encourages diversity, so this is a moot point and not an argument to expand the stagelist.

Anybody arguing that MK becomes better is an idiot. A semi-legitimate argument is that it is impossible to prevent him from ever gaining a gross advantage like he has on RC because you can't ban all of his broken CPs, but most people treat MK as an autowin everywhere anyways so there's no merit in presenting this. All that sane people are saying is that the new stages don't add that much to an MK-dominated metagame - which, ironically, is what most people who want a liberal stage list argue it is and want the character banned for - and that saying it helps other characters isn't a reason to have added those stages.

Anyways, the factor that encouraged character diversity more than anything else at MLG is the fact that it brought in so many people. A local NJ smash tourney is bound to have a lot of MKs. That's just the players that went that day. It can't be used as a statistical basis for an argument like you're trying to do.

 

[sunshade]

In this post: AZ compares a local to a national!

Anyways, you've grossly misinterpreted the argument, which is actually a counterargument and not a standalone one. Specifically, the argument that has been made for the MLG stagelist is this:

it encourages character diversity! herp

Counter:

MK does really well on every stage you're saying encourages diversity, so this is a moot point and not an argument to expand the stagelist.

Anybody arguing that MK becomes better is an idiot. A semi-legitimate argument is that it is impossible to prevent him from ever gaining a gross advantage like he has on RC because you can't ban all of his broken CPs, but most people treat MK as an autowin everywhere anyways so there's no merit in presenting this. All that sane people are saying is that the new stages don't add that much to an MK-dominated metagame - which, ironically, is what most people who want a liberal stage list argue it is and want the character banned for - and that saying it helps other characters isn't a reason to have added those stages.

Anyways, the factor that encouraged character diversity more than anything else at MLG is the fact that it brought in so many people. A local NJ smash tourney is bound to have a lot of MKs. That's just the players that went that day. It can't be used as a statistical basis for an argument like you're trying to do.

Nobody worth speaking to is saying that a liberal stage list should be used because it encourages diversity.

The argument for liberal stage lists is that stages should not be banned unless the stage over centralizes around a single tactic or strategy or significantly marginalizes skill. Circle camping, and walk-off camping are broken tactics which can qualify stages for being banned and excessive randomness can significantly marginalize skill.

Spoiler

(when I asked ADHD to make a claim on those grounds to OS he responded with something along the lines of "LOL Overswarm is not easy to convince without using arguments")

It just so happens that liberal stage lists encourage character diversity more so than a conservative stage list does. Thats not to say that if an area takes on a liberal stage list they will instantly have more diverse results. Nor is that a statement that MLG's diversity was due only to the stage list.

 

[Eddie G]

which, ironically, is what most people who want a liberal stage list argue it is and want the character banned for - and that saying it helps other characters isn't a reason to have added those stages.

That's bull****. The only people I've seen argue with an "it boosts Metaknight!" argument are those who are, in fact, against the use of liberal stagelists. Why would those supposed individuals who argue for a liberal stagelist, argue with a purpose that would kill their entire point to begin with?

If saying it helps other characters isn't a reason to have added the stages (assuming that even is the purpose of doing so), then what is exactly? To be fair, why keep things strictly conservative when it's obvious there wasn't sufficient research or comparison done before its standardization for the past two years?

 

[ADHD]

That's bull****. The only people I've seen argue with an "it boosts Metaknight!" argument are those who are, in fact, against the use of liberal stagelists. Why would those supposed individuals who argue for a liberal stagelist, argue with a purpose that would kill their entire point (assuming their point is for wider diversity or viability to any degree) to begin with?

If saying it helps other characters isn't a reason to have added the stages (assuming that even is the purpose of doing so), then what is exactly? To be fair, why keep things strictly conservative when it's obvious there wasn't sufficient research or comparison done before its standardization for the past two years?

Because helping certain characters worsens others when the ones that are being helped don't need it in the first place?

You do realize right.. metaknight is godly on green greens and norfair? It was bad enough as it was when we had to deal with them on either delfino, rainbow cruise, or brinstar. So yes, technically he does have an advantage on any stage in the first place, but let's not give him even MORE of an advantage.

Maybe you haven't played a good metaknight, kb. LOL. Any arguement that metaknight is perfectly combatable on these stages is nullified by that metaknight they've played actually being bad.

 

[Masky]

turning on smash balls would probably "improve" character diversity and start making Fox, Falco, and Marth win national tournaments (idk which smash balls are best lol). but it would obviously make tournaments worse. same goes for having on stupid stages

 

[Dark 3nergy]

The only characters that should really be complaining about TV lag are Ice Climbers since, unless they practiced with no sound and eyes closed, need SOME sort of cue, whether visual or audible. Nobody else is really frame perfect so it really shouldn't make a difference with the buffering system Brawl has.

DDD suffers from this too. Characters like Marth, Peach, Diddy Kong, Toon Link, Luigi, IC[solo], and Pit require near frame perfect CGing

I was messing mine up all over the place on my HDTV. Played Silhouette on a standard TV and my CGing was on key.

Keen[peach main] also said he was having issues preforming ATs on my TV. As was Ithrowthings[sonic main]. Both of these characters have movement ATs and need the visual cues to help them perform said ATs.

**** that sucks. I have an LCD at home so I am used to the lag 100%. Maybe thats why I'm placing so good and causing so many "Upsets" because I am clearly a lesser skilled player than most others *Looks with disgust at ADHD*

i mentioned this in an earlier post that people already training on TVs with this lag are already well equiped to deal with it. Kudos to you.

However, you should try out playing pika on a standard TV[no LCD] and see if you notice anything different with him.

 

[ADHD]

turning on smash balls would probably "improve" character diversity and start making Fox, Falco, and Marth win national tournaments (idk which smash balls are best lol). but it would obviously make tournaments worse. same goes for having on stupid stages

inb4 OS "But you can easily camp the center of the stage where they appear the most frequently."

 

[sunshade]

Because helping certain characters worsens others when the ones that are being helped don't need it in the first place?

You do realize right.. metaknight is godly on green greens and norfair? It was bad enough as it was when we had to deal with them on either delfino, rainbow cruise, or brinstar. So yes, technically he does have an advantage on any stage in the first place, but let's not give him even MORE of an advantage.

I think you may have missed my post in direct regard to this.

turning on smash balls would probably "improve" character diversity and start making Fox, Falco, and Marth win national tournaments (idk which smash balls are best lol). but it would obviously make tournaments worse. same goes for having on stupid stages

reread my last post in particular focus on the following section.

Nobody worth speaking to is saying that a liberal stage list should be used because it encourages diversity.

The argument for liberal stage lists is that stages should not be banned unless the stage over centralizes around a single tactic or strategy or significantly marginalizes skill. Circle camping, and walk-off camping are broken tactics which can qualify stages for being banned and excessive randomness can significantly marginalize skill.

Spoiler

(when I asked ADHD to make a claim on those grounds to OS he responded with something along the lines of "LOL Overswarm is not easy to convince without using arguments")

 

[Eddie G]

Because helping certain characters worsens others when the ones that are being helped don't need it in the first place?

Or maybe, just maybe, there is no rational or convincing argument that would justify the sole standardization of just one arrangement of the stagelist due to the insane amount of variables that are floating around in this topic. Metaknight just happens to be the only independent variable here. So yeah, tell me Wyatt, what if the roles were reversed? What if what is known as a liberal stagelist today was actually the standardized stagelist for the past two years and you were to present to me that same underlined question? That just shows that there is no possible perfect justification for the standardization of any stagelist arragement, because you would get this same type of situation every single time!

You do realize right.. metaknight is godly on green greens and norfair? It was bad enough as it was when we had to deal with them on either delfino, rainbow cruise, or brinstar. So yes, technically he does have an advantage on any stage in the first place, but let's not give him even MORE of an advantage.

So, according to you, it is ok to argue against the allowance of different stages to benefit different characters AND, at the same time, argue that it is perfectly fine to make an attempt to sorely reduce the supposed advantages granted to the already independent variable in this argument? Oh please...do explain your logic to me.

Maybe you haven't played a good metaknight, kb. LOL. Any arguement that metaknight is perfectly combatable on these stages is nullified by that metaknight they've played actually being bad.

Yep...M2K, Judge, Xzax, etc are all terrible, terrible Metaknights. I have absolutely no clue what I'm talking about when it comes to my toughest matchup in the game whom I've studied and encounter frequently, nay, excessively. Cut the conceited remarks, Wyatt.

You're the one showing a scrub mentality here. U mad about that 6th place down South ma doo? See how unnecessary that is?

 

[Masky]

wow... there is something in the water in the midwest lol. something bad

 

[sunshade]

I think Masky is my new favorite troll

 

[SFA Smiley]

You are aware the BBR is not responsible for the MLG stagelist, right?

I'm aware, yes, I was making a joke, wasn't aiming for accuracy or credibility.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Any arguement that metaknight is perfectly combatable on these stages is nullified by that metaknight they've played actually being bad.

I seem to recall Esam beating DSF on Norfair (whereas you lost to DSF on Rainbow Cruise!).

 

[fkacyan]

That's bull****. The only people I've seen argue with an "it boosts Metaknight!" argument are those who are, in fact, against the use of liberal stagelists. Why would those supposed individuals who argue for a liberal stagelist, argue with a purpose that would kill their entire point to begin with?

If saying it helps other characters isn't a reason to have added the stages (assuming that even is the purpose of doing so), then what is exactly? To be fair, why keep things strictly conservative when it's obvious there wasn't sufficient research or comparison done before its standardization for the past two years?

First para: I have no idea what the **** you're arguing about there.

Second para: None of the stages added support diversity in a way the conservative stagelists don't already do. Prove me wrong with objective facts and not results from tourneys, because shockingly those mean nothing in regards to stages and how matchups as a whole function on them.

 

[sunshade]

First para: I have no idea what the **** you're arguing about there.

Second para: None of the stages added support diversity in a way the conservative stagelists don't already do. Prove me wrong with objective facts and not results from tourneys, because shockingly those mean nothing in regards to stages and how matchups as a whole function on them.

Every stage on a liberal stage list adds depth in a way conservative stage lists do not. Prove me wrong with objective facts and not using results from tourneys, because shockingly those mean nothing in regards to stages and how matchups as a whole function on them.

 

[Orion*]

The only characters that should really be complaining about TV lag are Ice Climbers since, unless they practiced with no sound and eyes closed, need SOME sort of cue, whether visual or audible. Nobody else is really frame perfect so it really shouldn't make a difference with the buffering system Brawl has.

sorry not everyone just rolls the cstick around when they play, thats not true at all

A stage does not help a character (assuming 1 ban is allowed in the tournament) unless it is better than either the character's best stage or second best stage.

incorrect, you give that character MORE cp options. ex: frigate may be the best Overall cp, but norfair could be x characters best cp in y matchup.

For Metaknight his best stage is Rainbow Cruise and his second best stage is Brinstar.

other way around and also up for debate. although its generally agreed upon finally that brinstar is his best i think Overall.

No it would not, because the opponent will ban Rainbow cruise (the majority of the time) and then Metaknight will pick Brinstar (the majority of the time). Take note of how Jungle Japes while not a bad stage for Metaknight did not actually help him.

nobody cares about japes, that doesnt answer my question.

Those stages however do help other members of the cast to combat Metaknight and deal with other match-ups. This is why adding stages make Metaknight worse (well they don't really make him worse but they make other characters better while adding more depth/diversity to the game)

they make other characters better in other matchups, but they still give mk overall better cp options helping him .[/QUOTE]

 

[Eddie G]

Every stage on a liberal stage list adds depth in a way conservative stage lists do not. Prove me wrong with objective facts and not using results from tourneys, because shockingly those mean nothing in regards to stages and how matchups as a whole function on them.

****.

My thoughts exactly, Sunshade.

 

[MysteriousSilver]

Do you know what a person from the Midwest (especially Midwest-West) calls a tournament 4 hours away from home? The answer is "close".

Wait, that's far for some people?

I live in the wrong place.

 

[fkacyan]

Every stage on a liberal stage list adds depth in a way conservative stage lists do not. Prove me wrong with objective facts and not using results from tourneys, because shockingly those mean nothing in regards to stages and how matchups as a whole function on them.

Ah, but the rub! Every stage in a liberal stagelist also adds gimmicky, nigh-unbeatable tactics that require a specific subset, or just a specific, character(s) to compete there. As their diversity additions is questionable (Without express proof) and they have extremely stupid ways to abuse them, it's a much safer move to ban them.

If you don't think they have stupid gimmicks, play Orion or teh_spammerer on them.

KB, stop meatriding people and actually argue something, or don't post.

 

[Eddie G]

KB, stop meatriding people and actually argue something, or don't post.

Go back a few pages and read, buddy.

 

[fkacyan]

Go back a few pages and read, buddy.

I don't really care about other pages, I'm telling you, in this case, to get off of Sunshade's ****.