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Smash Bros. Canon Tournament! (Mario Vs. ????) - 06/14/10

PowerBomb

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I like how you think Link’s brain isn’t a part of his body that would be affected by him traveling through time (I mean…WTF makes you think it isn’t?)…you are aware that if the time travel was to work like it should normally…Link wouldn’t be aware of what happens in 7 years time…because tech. he wouldn’t have experienced the events yet…
Ok, whatever. Not a big deal. He remembers stuff. Awesome.
Dude…he is altering ONLY that point of time/space when he makes those blocks appear…he isn’t affected everything like you would think he would…
He's moving the block from one spot to another. >_> That's the only thing he ever moves, anyway.
Then explain how it doesn’t affect Link? He is aware of what is going on…if he was subject to the same rules as everyone else in the lands…you wouldn’t be able to beat the game for one thing…because you’d have to spend 3 days figuring out that the moon is going to fall…
Oh…and I hardly consider the Gorman Brother’s and “aliens” to be a part of the idea of “friendly” fire…
I meant how it affects the townspeople and enemies...not so much.
How so? Maybe in something like this…but in a non fighting situation…
It's useless in something like this. A battle. So speeding up time can be ignored.
Dude…it only chose to send him back 3 days…in case you don’t get it by that cutscene when you play the game…it could have sent him back to whatever point it wanted…
Nope, it goes back three days ONLY, it's why there isn't a option to go back one or two days, just three days. Don't try to change it. It goes back three days only.

So…why did you think he would have mastery of time?
It was a simple question asking whether he had some control over time, like you stated.

You can argue all you want against the Speed Booster, it's not worth responding to. Again, waste of my time.
 

Diddy Kong

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Why are we allowing things as the Star Rod and Ike's blessing again then..? Ganondorf I can understand, but Bowser and Ike are getting a bit vague. Especially cause Bowser loses his Star Rod in the end of Paper Mario.
 

Ray_Kalm

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Why are we allowing things as the Star Rod and Ike's blessing again then..? Ganondorf I can understand, but Bowser and Ike are getting a bit vague. Especially cause Bowser loses his Star Rod in the end of Paper Mario.


A lot of characters have lost stuff throughout Nintendo games, it'd be complicated to not allow a character something, when, at that same time, another character has something when he/she didn't in his/her game. You can also relate this to "being in possession of something".



For example; Mario gets certain 'power ups' in his game, but he was never able to carry some of them, yet we're still allowing them in this thread.
 

Ganonsburg

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Clinton, look here.

Yes, the sages made the Master Sword. That doesn't mean its not holy. Aaron and Moses and the Levites made the Ark of the Covenant, but that was still considered holy. Many things are made by chosen individuals to make something that will be made holy once it is done.

Basically, you just proved our point that the execution sword is holy.

Zelda said that the Master Sword is a sacred sword (sacred is just another way of saying holy) THAT repels evil.

She said, "that." Generally it implies "in addition" in such situations. If she had said, "so," we would have known that the sword banishes evil because it is sacred and holy. But no. It is sacred, and it banishes evil. Those two requirements are separate and independant.

Link is the chosen hero. In a sense, holy, because he was chosen by the goddesses for a specific task and granted a holy item to use (ToC). Ditto with Zelda. Why can't they kill Ganon on their own then? Oh, that's right. They can't banish evil.

The blessing of one god or goddess is different to that of another. Just because something is holy for one god, doesn't mean it is for another. So yes, Zelda holy=/=Fire Emblem holy and so on. Just like Samus's invincibility differs from Ganons, the Master Sword's holiness differs from Ike's.

But again, whatever can kill Ganon needs to be able to repel evil. And even if someone had that, they'd have to kill him with it, not just hit him. And we all know that Ganon is still a tank even without the ToP. Look at WW for proof of what he can do without it.

Also, how do you know the goddesses only used a little effort? Why wouldn't they use all of it and just kill Ganon if they could?

In Spirit tracks, Malludus (a Demon King, like Ganon, but without the ToP) had fought off the spirits and almost destroyed everything, but the spirits were able to beat him. But in doing so they used up most of their power and were extremely weak. If a demon king like Malludus could do that, what do you think Ganon can do? He's been called a demon king as well, but he has the ToP, magic, endurance, and so on (he's like 10x anything Malludus could ever dream to be).

:034:
 

WhatIsRaizen?

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The "overall results" have developed quite a lot since we first started. Seems nice to look back at what we began with.

Overall Results

Wins +1:
,
, , ,
,
,
,
,
,
,
,
,
,
,
,
, :toonlink:, :younglinkmelee:


Neutral:
,



Loss -1:
,
, , ,
,
,
,
,
,
,
,
,
,
,
,
, :jigglypuff:, :rob:

To this.

Overall Results

Wins +5:

:ganondorf:

Wins +4:

:samus2:, :ike:, :fox:, :ness2:

Wins +3:

:mario2:

Wins +2:

:bowser2:, :sonic:, :peach:, :luigi2:, :wolf:

Wins +1:

:snake:, :diddy:, :toonlink:, :younglinkmelee:, :mewtwo:

Neutral:

:lucas:, :marth:, :dk2:, :falco:, :pt:, :link2:, :pit:

Loss -1:

:roymelee:, :metaknight:, :lucario:, :falcon:, :wario:, :pikachu:, :pichu:

Loss -2:

:kirby2:, :zelda:

Loss -3:

:zerosuitsamus:, :dedede:, :jigglypuff:, :yoshi2:

Loss -4:

:popo:, :olimar:

Loss -5:

:gw:, :rob:

Anyways, next MU.

Vs.


Current Match-Up:
THE HERO OF WINDS Vs. THE GEARED SOLIDER

ToonLink Vs. Snake

:toonlink:, Vs. :snake:

Round 5, Match 9.
 

REL38

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@Clinton

Pichu and Luigi are compatible for obvious reasons.
They're normal characters that posses extrodinary powers capable of harming one another.
There is no specific qualification that must be met to harm one another.

Wherelse harming Ike requires specific qualifications.
Where a god power from the Master Sword will have no effect what so ever.

Normal characters are compatible.
Those with godlike defences require specific qualifications to be harmed.
Where one god =/= one from another series.
They would lack that required ability.


Assumption comes down to "does this work or not".
Will Thunder have a greater effect on a flying Pit?
Does StopWatch effect Link?
Can Light Beam harm Ganon?

This is where assumptions can be drawn to see if "this works on that".
Because some comparison is seen.

Thunder has greater effect on Flying PKMN. Will it on Pit?
Link is known to travel time. Is he immune to StopWatch?
The Ing being evil is iffy. Can the Light Beam hurt Ganon?

Trying to compare gods is a different matter entirely, but in this thread, comes down to "can this power/god power harm this god power".
Although the Light Arrows are sacred arrows, they have no effect on Ike. Their ability is to repel evil. It has no effect on Ike.
Ganon is a near godlike deity.
But he does not have the specific ability to cancel Bowser's Invinciblity.

Ganon has more leeway in what can harm him. Anything that "repels evil" can harm him, but it's more like stun. Anything that "banishes evil" marks his fate.
Does anyone other than Link or Zelda have anything to fit this criteria?


Where assumptions and exceptions lay are set.
An exception would be "Ness has godlike powers, so he can hurt Ike".
That is an exception as it goes against the specific criteria that must be met to harm Ike. Thusly an exception which is going against canon.
Power of the Land =/= Yuna's Blessing

Fair or not isn't the case here. Balanced or not, that's what canon stats. Tough luck for anyone who can't harm Ganon, Ike or Bowser.


Using Arceus wasn't the best example.
Regigigas can pull continents, but Dialga cannot. But both are deities. That's because they posses different abilities.


In regards to Bowser, Ray Kalm answered that.
To add, we're taking everyone to their fullest potential.

Ness' "destiny" is heavily tied to the stroryline. His destiny is to save the world. It has no weight here because he is not saving the world. It's not part of the storyline.
This logic of "destiny" has no weight in these MU's. It's related souly to storyline. Something that these MU's aren't part of.
Also, it was never Bowser's "destiny" to lose the Star Rod. Never stated. Rather the goal of Paper Mario.
 

the king of murder

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Never bring a sword in a gun fight. I dunno if TLink really has chance against Snake. TLink has Magic Armor to protect him from every harm as long he has enough magic. But I must say Snake is fast, skilled and has strong weapons. TLink has Ice Arrows to freez him but Snake can easily dodge them. They are both durable. Snake can easily attack from distance(he is a good sniper so he can hit him eventually) while TLink just has to hit him with the Ice Arrows or another powerful weapon. That´s a tough one.


@Clinton
So you assume that Ganondorf can be hurt by anything that is holy. So where is your proof? In the games it is stated that ONLY the power that smites evil itself can harm him. Of course you can say: How do you know that any holy weapons doesn´t have this power? And my question: How do you know it does? It is never stated in the game that you can harm with anything that is holy. That´s why you always finish him off with the Master Sword or the Silver Arrows (which were replaced by by the Light Arrows later) the only assault to repel evil. And don´t tell me these are the only ,,holy,, powers in the Zelda Universe.

PH: Phantom Sword
ST: Lokomo Sword
MM: Fierce Deity Mask
OOT: Din´s Fire+Nayru´s Love+Farore´s Wind
and more.
So unless you give me foolproof evidence that any holy weapon (not just MS and LA) can finish him off everything you say is a just assumption.

And LMAO gods aren´t the only one who are able to make holy things. Also there are more deitys in the Zelda Universe than just the Golden Goddesses. (And in my opinion Ganondorf has shown more godly power than most characters you listed. Before you want to disprove it it´s my OPINION like you have your opinion about Ganondorf and his power.) I never said he is a god. I said his power is compareable to one. God Power=/=being a God. And don´t you think taking away the Triforce piece would be munch easier than flooding the entire land, sealing away his power with the Master Sword and almost destroy everything they created? They don´t care about human rights? I doubt that.
The Dark Interlopers desired the Triforce and declared war because of it. The Goddesses banished them in the Twilight Realm so they won´t make any trouble again. They sended guardian deitys to Hyrule for protection. But Ganondorf can easily take them down. So the goddesses had to take care of him by themselves.
Just to seal away one man they almost destroyed everything they created. And that didn´t even work at all.
 

PowerBomb

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Wow, really?

So Legendary =/= Über?

Edit:
lolwut
Slow Start as an ability is terrible!
Why does Regigigas have that anyways!?
Balancing reasons... if Regigigas had Pressure instead he would be AMAZING. And yes, Legendary =/= Uber. Garchomp is Uber, yet he isn't a Legendary.

It's really a matter of opinion, but smogon.com is generally the best Competitive Pokemon website you can find.
 

Crystanium

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Uber is not pronounced "ooh-ber" if anyone is pronouncing it that way. :mad:

When it comes to elementals, these act as the paper, rock, scissors. There are the four original: Earth, Fire, Wind, and Water. I can't say any of these actually have an effect on the other in reality. Water does extinguish fire. Wind may be superior to Earth, but Earth is vague. In Final Fantasy, they have Earth, Fire, Wind, Water, Lightning, Poison, Gravity, Holy, and Shadow. Notice that they do not have Light and Dark. In Yu-Gi-Oh, they have Light and Dark. In Fire Emblem, they have Fire, Wind, Thunder, Light, and Dark. I believe the first three fall under Anima.

Anyway, I don't see why Holy would not affect Dark. They're the opposite of each other. Light is perceived as positive. It's only effective against Dark, because in reality light drives away darkness. Holiness is simply being set apart. That's all it means. Other terms synonymous with "holy" are "sacred," "pure," "hallowed," "sacrosanct," "undefiled." The opposite of "holy" are "depraved," "malevalent," "evil," "wicked." Ganondorf is described as being evil and wicked. His acts are malevalent. I fail to see how holiness, which opposes evil, would not be acceptable against one who is dark or of the shadows.

In case I need to remind everyone here, in European folklore, silver was used to kill evil creatures like werewolves, vampires, witches, and so forth. The reason for this was because when light made contact with silver, the silver shined bright white. The whiteness represented holiness. Long before Light Arrows were used, Silver Arrows were used to defeat Ganondorf. If a weapon is blessed, it's usually done so to defeat those who are evil. I have never heard of a weapon being blessed just to be blessed. Do you know what holy water is? Water that has been blessed. Surely the Master Sword was blessed by the three goddesses. Nowhere does it say anything about the Master Sword and light.
 

Alphatron

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I'm not really seeing how Toon Link can't win this. He's got the mirror shield for reflecting stuff, is capable of stopping time(Phantom hourglass) and has magic powers of his own. The kid survived being shot out of a cannon into a fortress wall. He's porbably not going down in one gun shot.

And I need to ask something. In the windwaker final battle, if you don't block the arrows that Zelda shoots at you, do you actually take damage? I'm pretty sure you still do...
 

Kewkky

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Humm, wonder where my post went... I swear I made a post here a day or two ago, wonder what happened to it.

How did Samus end up in a draw? If we agree the Speed Booster and Hyper Mode make Samus invincible, and an invincible Bowser isn't affected by stopwatches, how do people keep coming up with the conclusion that stopwatches will affect Samus? Samus' Plasma beams can penetrate Mario's defenses and hit him, plus she has infinite ammo. She just needs to maintain her invincibility while shooting Mario wherever he runs or jumps (she can aim at any angle practically), and once she hits him, due to the penetration and going through Mario's body effect, he would die (5 hits for his 5hp I guess) and use a life shroom, which according to the new rules means he dies. How can Mario overcome her invincibility?


D: <----- This is my face
Quoting and bumping... I wonder if people might read it now. And add in that Samus has infinite Plasma Beam ammo (the penetrating kind, not the fiery beam) and that Mario literally can't do anything in this situation. He is literally just running away the entire match, looking for ways to up his speed/avoidability/heal, which would be surviving... While Samus is still on the attack.

Samus should've won, a draw shouldn't have happened.
 
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Mirror Shield shuts down Snake's guns, since the bullets will just reflect back to him.
Snake's NIKITA would require Snake to be immobile for some time, while a slow moving rocket travels through the air. If Snake were to use his Nikita, TL could Ice Arrow and dominate.

Snake has explosives. They'll probably work against TL. Snake can camouflage. That can lead to anything. These are the only two things that could possibly save Snake.

Toon Link has the Wind Waker. He can travel through the winds on his boat, change day/night, and the direction of the wind. Nothing really useful, unless you want the wind to interfere with Snake's guns.

Toon Link has Fire, Ice, and Light Arrows. If Ice Arrows could freeze a volcano for 5 minutes, I think they could freeze Snake for longer. He can also launch an arrow in like 2 seconds, so pulling out the arrow quickly shouldn't be a problem. Light arrows banish evil. Fire Arrows are hot.

He has a regular boomerang that stuns. He has a grappling hook, and hook shot. He has his bombs. Oh, THE SKULL HAMMER. It'll splatter snake. Holeh jezus.

And if TL needs more magic, he can store 4 bottles of whatever he likes, and if it were true to the game, then time would freeze while he drinks whatever is in his bottle. Same goes with the Wind Waker.
 

Kewkky

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The post above mine sounds like favoritism towards TL... But, TL wins this sadly. Magic armor and bottles full of blue potion, Snake has to run away now and TL can hunt him down with whatever he desires on using from all of his DS games + WW.

If Snake had a chance, all he'd need is a simple gun, and headshot TL. But, that takes some time to aim, since you can't just headshot enemies in a second, in his games you take time to properly aim (more than a second), plus pulling out your gun and blahblahblah.

I SEE YOU TWINK
 
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The post above mine sounds like favoitism towards TL... But, TL wins this sadly. Magic armor and bottles full of blue potion, Snake has to run away now and TL can hunt him down with whatever he desires on using from all of his DS games + WW.

If Snake had a chance, all he'd need is a simple gun, and headshot TL. But, that takes some time to aim, since you can't just headshot enemies in a second, in his games you take time to properly aim (more than a second), plus pulling out your gun and blahblahblah.
Well he's my main, and I'm rooting for him. Plus, it kind of makes sense that TL would win. A pistol could kill TL if he didn't have a mirror shield, but since he does, Snake has to use explosives. Explosives aren't bad, but in the time that it takes to set one up, TL could Ice Arrow.
 

Sosuke

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If Snake had a chance, all he'd need is a simple gun, and headshot TL. But, that takes some time to aim, since you can't just headshot enemies in a second, in his games you take time to properly aim (more than a second), plus pulling out your gun and blahblahblah.
Well Snake has a big target. :mad:


He also has camo that's pretty useless due to Z-targeting. >_>
 

Kewkky

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Well Snake has a big target. :mad:
Touché, but TL uses his magic armor faster. :p


Humm, wonder where my post went... I swear I made a post here a day or two ago, wonder what happened to it.

How did Samus end up in a draw? If we agree the Speed Booster and Hyper Mode make Samus invincible, and an invincible Bowser isn't affected by stopwatches, how do people keep coming up with the conclusion that stopwatches will affect Samus? Samus' Plasma beams can penetrate Mario's defenses and hit him, plus she has infinite ammo. She just needs to maintain her invincibility while shooting Mario wherever he runs or jumps (she can aim at any angle practically), and once she hits him, due to the penetration and going through Mario's body effect, he would die (5 hits for his 5hp I guess) and use a life shroom, which according to the new rules means he dies. How can Mario overcome her invincibility? And add in that Samus has infinite Plasma Beam ammo (the penetrating kind, not the fiery beam) and that Mario literally can't do anything in this situation. He is literally just running away the entire match, looking for ways to up his speed/avoidability/heal, which would be surviving... While Samus is still on the attack.

Samus should've won, a draw shouldn't have happened.


D: <----- This is my face
Re-bumping this.
 

Kewkky

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i know, I just want it to be there whenever the readers' eyes scroll down the page... :(

so I'll just keep re-quoting it every couple of posts to keep emphasizing it.
 

the king of murder

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I thought the Mirror Shield just reflects light or magic attacks. I dunno if Snakes weapons work physically.
However there is nothing he can do as long as TLink has the Magic Amor. But it is limited to how munch magic he has. There is one chance how Snake is able to win. He dodges all the stuff TLink is coming up and waits till he cant use his Magic Armor anymore. Then he hides somewhere and does a sneak attack either from distance or a Close Quater Combat(I´m sure even TLink will be affected by this). But other than that Snake is likely to lose sadly.

Off Topic:
Darkness=/= necessary evil or wicked.
 

WhatIsRaizen?

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Moving on again.

Vs.



Current Match-Up:
THE PSYCHIC Vs. THE SWORDSMAN

Lucas Vs. Marth

:lucas: Vs. :marth:

Round 5, Match 10.

Overall Results

Wins +5:

:ganondorf:

Wins +4:

:samus2:, :ike:, :fox:, :ness2:

Wins +3:

:mario2:

Wins +2:

:bowser2:, :sonic:, :peach:, :luigi2:, :wolf:, :toonlink:

Wins +1:

:diddy::, :younglinkmelee:, :mewtwo:

Neutral:

:lucas:, :marth:, :dk2:, :falco:, :pt:, :link2:, :pit:, :snake:

Loss -1:

:roymelee:, :metaknight:, :lucario:, :falcon:, :wario:, :pikachu:, :pichu:

Loss -2:

:kirby2:, :zelda:

Loss -3:

:zerosuitsamus:, :dedede:, :jigglypuff:, :yoshi2:

Loss -4:

:popo:, :olimar:

Loss -5:

:gw:, :rob:
 

Kewkky

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Are you sure the stopwatch works on invincible Bowser? Not Clock-Out, but the stopwatch? You know, the Bowser that's invincible due to the Star Rod? I always thought everything clinked on him when he was invincible, including item uses.

Mario can't move Samus to a wall because he's never been able to move enemies stopped in time, right? If Mario can do this, then it's only fair to say Samus can grapple Mario anywere except the skin, or pull off the badges with the grapple. Roleplaying begets roleplaying. Hell, she could even grapple the stopwatches from Mario's hands, am I right? Oh, and it being a neutral battlefield and all, I don't know where Mario will find a wall to make Samus bump into.

And 99 stop watches is only delaying the inevitable... Samus will, in the end, be infinitely invincible, while Mario runs out of stopwatches and is forced to run away because he can't do anything to an invincible Samus which wields a weapon capable of penetrating defenses, which has unlimited ammo as well. This shouldn't be a draw, this should be a win for Samus. :@

Edit: In fact, I don't think I've ever seen Mario stopping enemies then moving them around. In SPM, if you stop enemies (can you? I forgot, I've had my wii broken for over half a year now), does touching them still hurt you? If so (and even if it doesn't), her Speed Booster attack is still activated, so touching her will hurt Mario.

Edit2: And I can't let it go because Mario's only saving grace is stopping time, moving Samus to a wall (an action I don't agree with, and see lots of holes in it the same way), making her bump into it, then attacking her. Samus could even activate Hypermode before Mario has the chance to do anything, since it activates almost instantly, and wastes no energy tanks unless she shoots with it, so she could activate it and get the Speed Booster going again. If Mario tries to lock her in time, then Hypermode's corruption won't happen because its timer is stopped as well. I don't know WHY Mario got a Draw. :@
 

justaway12

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I was hoping to edit out my post before it was too late =l

Are you sure the stopwatch works on invincible Bowser? Not Clock-Out, but the stopwatch? You know, the Bowser that's invincible due to the Star Rod? I always thought everything clinked on him when he was invincible, including item uses.
I thought you meant Paper Mario: TTYD

Mario can't move Samus to a wall because he's never been able to move enemies stopped in time, right? If Mario can do this, then it's only fair to say Samus can grapple Mario anywere except the skin, or pull off the badges with the grapple. Roleplaying begets roleplaying. Hell, she could even grapple the stopwatches from Mario's hands, am I right? Oh, and it being a neutral battlefield and all, I don't know where Mario will find a wall to make Samus bump into.
Mario has arms, I thought Raizen added a slight bit of realism, that way silly things like, say Marth dodging time wouldn't happen =/

And there is a floor.

And 99 stop watches is only delaying the inevitable... Samus will, in the end, be infinitely invincible, while Mario runs out of stopwatches and is forced to run away because he can't do anything to an invincible Samus which wields a weapon capable of penetrating defenses, which has unlimited ammo as well. This shouldn't be a draw, this should be a win for Samus. :@
No, if she does run into something, and is stupid enough to keep running she'll not know where she is, if she is stopped, her speed booster is stopped too.

Edit: In fact, I don't think I've ever seen Mario stopping enemies then moving them around. In SPM, if you stop enemies (can you? I forgot, I've had my wii broken for over half a year now), does touching them still hurt you? If so (and even if it doesn't), her Speed Booster attack is still activated, so touching her will hurt Mario.
If it does then all Mario will just stand infront of her and use his (unbreakable) tanuki suit.

Edit2: And I can't let it go because Mario's only saving grace is stopping time, moving Samus to a wall (an action I don't agree with, and see lots of holes in it the same way), making her bump into it, then attacking her. Samus could even activate Hypermode before Mario has the chance to do anything, since it activates almost instantly, and wastes no energy tanks unless she shoots with it, so she could activate it and get the Speed Booster going again. If Mario tries to lock her in time, then Hypermode's corruption won't happen because its timer is stopped as well. I don't know WHY Mario got a Draw. :@
Oh, you mean that thing that eats her alive? Then Mario just stop time, use sleepy sheep or anything and wait for her to get eaten alive.

EDIT: Let's not forget super guard reduces all hits to 0, so technically, Mario can't take any damage too.
 

REL38

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How did Toon Link win?

Snake has Stealth Camo that makes his entirely invisible.
Linky can't lock-on or attack something he can't even see :/

While Linky is aimlessly attacking the air, Snake pulls out a Sniper headshot.
Run outta the area Linky is now targeting, rinse, repeat.

@MU

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@Kewwky
D-Down Hammer/Jump ignores any and all defences. That means it'll bypass the Power Suit's huge defences and directly harm Samus.
I doubt Zamus would be able to withstand a direct attack from a guy who picked up castles or stomps them to the ground.


To add to Justaway's point about Phazon, the StopWatch keeps the enemy immobile, but the enemy will still take status effect-like damage they've had prior or during the usage of StopWatch.
A goomba that is poisoned will still take damage when frozen in time.
Samus would be harmed by the Phazon when frozen in time.
Mario can win that way by constantly using StopWatches so Samus is almost indefintely stopped in time via the 99 StopWatches. By then, Samus would be corrupted or w/e and die.
 

Kewkky

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I thought you meant Paper Mario: TTYD

In the first Paper Mario, invincible Bowser can't be stopped in time with stopwatches, so we can safely say that invincible Samus can't be stopped by stopwatches.

Mario has arms, I thought Raizen added a slight bit of realism, that way silly things like, say Marth dodging time wouldn't happen =/
Well, that sucks for Samus, since she is already in a realistic universe there's barely anything that she can 'play around with' like Mario moving people stopped in time. It's OK, because invincible Samus shouldn't be stopped in time anyway, since invincible Bowser can't be stopped in time by a stopwatch.

No, if she does run into something, and is stupid enough to keep running she'll not know where she is, if she is stopped, her speed booster is stopped too.
Yes, this is true, but that's what Hypermode is for here: regaining invincibility quickly when she loses it.

If it does then all Mario will just stand infront of her and use his (unbreakable) tanuki suit.
Did enemies walk by Tanooki suit Mario, or did they turn around like if he was a wall? I have a vague memory of them walking past Mario, but fireballs hitting the suit as if he was a wall...

Oh, you mean that thing that eats her alive? Then Mario just stop time, use sleepy sheep or anything and wait for her to get eaten alive.
If you stop time technically she is still running, so her invincibility and touch damage remains active. In her point of view she never stopped running, it's not even like the blink of an eye to her; she believes she never stopped in time and keeps running. But, what does it matter, if when Mario uses a stopwatch at an invincible opponent (Bowser was immune to everything, he wished for invincibility, and Samus has invincibility while her Hypermode and/or Speed Booster are active), nothing happens?

EDIT: Let's not forget super guard reduces all hits to 0, so technically, Mario can't take any damage too.

Super Guard is player-influenced, and when you fight party members as enemies they never super guard... So we shouldn't bring it into these discussions.
 

REL38

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@Kewwky

In regard to Super Guard, it's a reaction by the player just like strifing and switching weapons for Samus. Everything in gameplay is player-influenced.
I don't see that as a good reason.

Also, I don't believe party members can Super Guard.
Besides, when you fight Vivian, she never blocks.
That sure doesn't mean Mario can't perform his normal blocks in the game.


Edit:
Bowser doesn't get affected by the StopWatch.
Period.

He's a boss.
In Paper Mario, bosses are never affected by status effects like stopped time or dizziness.
The only reason StopWatch has no effect on bosses is cuz of game mechanics.
Bowser never gets affected by a StopWatch to begin with. Invincible Bowser won't be effected because it never effected him to begin with.
 

justaway12

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In the first Paper Mario, invincible Bowser can't be stopped in time with stopwatches, so we can safely say that invincible Samus can't be stopped by stopwatches.
There were other games that had a stop watch and might I ask how you knew that? And there is clock out too.

Did enemies walk by Tanooki suit Mario, or did they turn around like if he was a wall? I have a vague memory of them walking past Mario, but fireballs hitting the suit as if he was a wall...
IDK, but you could still take damage by fireballs and not get hurt.

If you stop time technically she is still running, so her invincibility and touch damage remains active. In her point of view she never stopped running, it's not even like the blink of an eye to her; she believes she never stopped in time and keeps running. But, what does it matter, if when Mario uses a stopwatch at an invincible opponent (Bowser was immune to everything, he wished for invincibility, and Samus has invincibility while her Hypermode and/or Speed Booster are active), nothing happens?
Mario can super-guard or tanuki suit, again, I'm not ssure I've ever tried it, how do you know?

Super Guard is player-influenced, and when you fight party members as enemies they never super guard... So we shouldn't bring it into these discussions.
Technically everything is player influenced, it's a version of guard and can be used, I don't see why not.
 

Kewkky

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There were other games that had a stop watch and might I ask how you knew that? And there is clock out too.

I'm using the first Paper Mario Bowser because it's a character that's used in this thread doing exactly the same things as in that game, and how do I know it? Try it yourself and it won't work. You can find an n64 emulator somewhere and download it if you wanna try it, just make your way to Bowser's castle near the end of the game, then use a stopwatch/anything on Bowser and it will all clink.

IDK, but you could still take damage by fireballs and not get hurt.
If enemies walk right past Mario I can safely say Samus can speedboost past Mario. Both characters are 2D originally, so it shouldn't be hard to imagine.

Mario can super-guard or tanuki suit, again, I'm not ssure I've ever tried it, how do you know?
When you get knocked out, you don't experience anything around you. When you wake up at the hospital, it doesn't matter if it's been 20 years since you got knocked out, it all feels like the blink of an eye. Stopping time is stopping the enemies' conscience, so I don't see why we shouldn't assume that she's unaware she's been stopped in time... In fact, the suit itself is unaware that it has been stopped in time, so everything is still running just as it was before time stopped. I'm not saying this is true to the games, I'm saying that it's logical.

Technically everything is player influenced, it's a version of guard and can be used, I don't see why not.

So now Mario can super-guard whenever he can? This is why I don't want it brought up in thsi discussion... Unlike the changing of a Metroid weapon (which is also player-influenced, of course), it depends on player reactions. You could never superguard all the time perfectly, sooner or later you would miss that tough timing and get hit, and with multi-hitting/delayed-hitting attacks it was way harder super guarding them. It's an imperfect invincibility that is completely reflective on a player's reaction speed, and ability to process the timing of the enemies' attacks. Samus doesn't require this precision.

In regard to Super Guard, it's a reaction by the player just like strifing and switching weapons for Samus. Everything in gameplay is player-influenced.
I don't see that as a good reason.

Switching weapons isn't based on a player-only skill, nor is strifing. Everyone can strife and change weapons, in fact if you never do these you lose. You can beat a Paper Mario game by never super-guarding, there's one difference. Another difference is that super-guarding requires precision which is easily influenced by human err, which happens more often than never (which would seem like people are saying Mario should do in the MU against Samus). Plus, you can only superguard moves that hit you, and when they miss it doesn't work. How will Mario know when to press his 'B' button?

Also, I don't believe party members can Super Guard.
Besides, when you fight Vivian, she never blocks.
That sure doesn't mean Mario can't perform his normal blocks in the game.
Party members can super guard, as well as normal guard. Why then does Vivian not guard when you fight her? What about
Doopliss
, why doesn't he superguard Mario?

Bowser doesn't get affected by the StopWatch.
Period.

He's a boss.
In Paper Mario, bosses are never affected by status effects like stopped time or dizziness.
The only reason StopWatch has no effect on bosses is cuz of game mechanics.
Bowser never gets affected by a StopWatch to begin with. Invincible Bowser won't be effected because it never effected him to begin with.

Why then does Clock-Out affect Bowser when he's not invincible? I'm not buying this.
 

justaway12

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I'm using the first Paper Mario Bowser because it's a character that's used in this thread doing exactly the same things as in that game, and how do I know it? Try it yourself and it won't work. You can find an n64 emulator somewhere and download it if you wanna try it, just make your way to Bowser's castle near the end of the game, then use a stopwatch/anything on Bowser and it will all clink.


It's okay, I've got it, I'm just too lazy to check, and I bbelive there are other invincible people.

If enemies walk right past Mario I can safely say Samus can speedboost past Mario. Both characters are 2D originally, so it shouldn't be hard to imagine.
But how can she speed boost past something that's right infront of her? He most likely used it as camoflouge since enemies payed no notice.

When you get knocked out, you don't experience anything around you. When you wake up at the hospital, it doesn't matter if it's been 20 years since you got knocked out, it all feels like the blink of an eye. Stopping time is stopping the enemies' conscience, so I don't see why we shouldn't assume that she's unaware she's been stopped in time... In fact, the suit itself is unaware that it has been stopped in time, so everything is still running just as it was before time stopped. I'm not saying this is true to the games, I'm saying that it's logical.
I was talking about it not working on Bowser, which you've already answered, but you should know that some attacks don't really work on all bosses, especially last bosses.


So now Mario can super-guard whenever he can? This is why I don't want it brought up in thsi discussion... Unlike the changing of a Metroid weapon (which is also player-influenced, of course), it depends on player reactions. You could never superguard all the time perfectly, sooner or later you would miss that tough timing and get hit, and with multi-hitting/delayed-hitting attacks it was way harder super guarding them. It's an imperfect invincibility that is completely reflective on a player's reaction speed, and ability to process the timing of the enemies' attacks. Samus doesn't require this precision.
But this is about characters at full potential, right?


Party members can super guard, as well as normal guard. Why then does Vivian not guard when you fight her? What about
Doopliss
, why doesn't he superguard Mario?
Why didn't Bowser wish Mario dead in Paper Mario? Why didn't Nastasia control the Mario gangs/Dimetio's mind in the last battle?

Why then does Clock-Out affect Bowser when he's not invincible? I'm not buying this.
I thought you were using just Paper Mario? I heard that TTYD Bowser was like Super Paper Mario Bowser
 

REL38

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@Kewwky

Super Guard, although requires precise timing, is still legit enough.
I could say the chances Samus gets off an Annihilator headshot will be too precise to hit with.
Headshots are player influenced. It all relies on the players aim.
Samus' lock-on system focuses on the enemies body, not head.
Chances that'll hit are rather low. But everyone assumes she'll always hit it off.
Lucas can constantly bash an opponent in succession, but relies on timing.
Snake can shoot his RPG at two shots per second, but the player needs to time the pressing of the R2 button to avoid the lengthy reload.

Reaction and precision timed things in gameplay all rely on the player, but we've taken these things, as well as other things, to their fullest potential.


Vivian never guards because they're prevented from doing so. No enemy in any of the Paper Mario games is capable of performing an sort of guard. Their only defences are set ones like Koopa Shells type defences, Magikoopa magic and items iirc.

Doopliss is limited to performing attacks that don't use up FP.
Blocking is none existent for all enemies. They aren't programmed to do that.


StopWatch never affected Bowser in Paper Mario cuz he was a legit boss.
In Paper Mario: TTYD, Bowser was never a legit boss, rather a mini-boss. Thusly Clock-Out was more prone to affect him there.
StopWatch not harming him in the first game is game mechanic.
 

Ganonsburg

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Uber is not pronounced "ooh-ber" if anyone is pronouncing it that way. :mad:

When it comes to elementals, these act as the paper, rock, scissors. There are the four original: Earth, Fire, Wind, and Water. I can't say any of these actually have an effect on the other in reality. Water does extinguish fire. Wind may be superior to Earth, but Earth is vague. In Final Fantasy, they have Earth, Fire, Wind, Water, Lightning, Poison, Gravity, Holy, and Shadow. Notice that they do not have Light and Dark. In Yu-Gi-Oh, they have Light and Dark. In Fire Emblem, they have Fire, Wind, Thunder, Light, and Dark. I believe the first three fall under Anima.

Anyway, I don't see why Holy would not affect Dark. They're the opposite of each other. Light is perceived as positive. It's only effective against Dark, because in reality light drives away darkness. Holiness is simply being set apart. That's all it means. Other terms synonymous with "holy" are "sacred," "pure," "hallowed," "sacrosanct," "undefiled." The opposite of "holy" are "depraved," "malevalent," "evil," "wicked." Ganondorf is described as being evil and wicked. His acts are malevalent. I fail to see how holiness, which opposes evil, would not be acceptable against one who is dark or of the shadows.

In case I need to remind everyone here, in European folklore, silver was used to kill evil creatures like werewolves, vampires, witches, and so forth. The reason for this was because when light made contact with silver, the silver shined bright white. The whiteness represented holiness. Long before Light Arrows were used, Silver Arrows were used to defeat Ganondorf. If a weapon is blessed, it's usually done so to defeat those who are evil. I have never heard of a weapon being blessed just to be blessed. Do you know what holy water is? Water that has been blessed. Surely the Master Sword was blessed by the three goddesses. Nowhere does it say anything about the Master Sword and light.
Well, even if holy defeats dark in other games, we're talking about Ganon, who's from the Zelda series where RPG elemental types don't exist.

Anyway, if we're talking about holy things as they are in real life, then pretty much no one gets them. Whenever someone touches something holy, they're generally in serious trouble (risk of death, disease), because non-holy people aren't supposed to touch holy things. So basically the Triforce should have destroyed Ganon as soon as Ganon touched it because evil (sin) can't touch holy objects....but he obviously took it and lived.

So no, the weapon has to be specifically destined to repel/destroy evil.

As for the silver arrows, we've talked about them. But no one in this list has any (not even the Links), so moot point. Not to mention its possible that the light arrows retconned the silver ones, because we haven't seen silver arrows since ALttP, but we've seen light arrows in multiple games (WW, ST, MC to name a few).

:034:
 

Kewkky

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Super Guard, although requires precise timing, is still legit enough.
I could say the chances Samus gets off an Annihilator headshot will be too precise to hit with.
Headshots are player influenced. It all relies on the players aim.
Samus' lock-on system focuses on the enemies body, not head.
Chances that'll hit are rather low. But everyone assumes she'll always hit it off.
Lucas can constantly bash an opponent in succession, but relies on timing.
Snake can shoot his RPG at two shots per second, but the player needs to time the pressing of the R2 button to avoid the lengthy reload.

Reaction and precision timed things in gameplay all rely on the player, but we've taken these things, as well as other things, to their fullest potential.
Awright, I guess you got me there... But this fully cancels out the opponents' damage, and is still bound by a chance to err. Everyone else's isn't so drastic. Mario's is a perfect counter since it also damages the opponent with piercing damage. It would make the hardest fights in the game a walk in the park.... I think it's too exaggerated, but if people allow it, guess I can't do anything about it.

Vivian never guards because they're prevented from doing so. No enemy in any of the Paper Mario games is capable of performing an sort of guard. Their only defences are set ones like Koopa Shells type defences, Magikoopa magic and items iirc.
True, but what I meant was that if an ally of yours has the ability to superguard, why doesn't the ally do it when you fight him/her? Even Goombella, Koops (or Kooper? I always get 'em mixed up) and Flurry? You're clearly doing it before fighting them WITH them, but they can't do it on their own. When you fight Trace on MP:Hunters, he aims at you (I forgot if you can be headshot on 1P modes), which means that aiming isn't completely player-based, while superguarding see,ms more and more player-based. I want to call it a battle mechanic scratching at the game-mechanic title. The characters fighting in this thread don't have players behind them to time their button presses at such powerful game-altering mechanics WHICH aren't even needed in order to pass the game. Other attacks that require timing (like Mario's Super Jump) are still allowed, because it's been shown a lot that even Mario copies bounce, and the attack requires the timing in order to successfully pull it off.

Doopliss is limited to performing attacks that don't use up FP.
Blocking is none existent for all enemies. They aren't programmed to do that.
So, in the Samus vs Mario, from a Samus point of view, Mario is the enemy. Does he still have the ability to block?

That was a joke by the way, no need to answer to that. However, if enemies could superguard at their full potential like Mario is said to do in this thread, don't you think the game would be immensely dumb? You would never get past Vivian if this were true.

StopWatch never affected Bowser in Paper Mario cuz he was a legit boss.
In Paper Mario: TTYD, Bowser was never a legit boss, rather a mini-boss. Thusly Clock-Out was more prone to affect him there.
StopWatch not harming him in the first game is game mechanic.

Umm, Clock-Out is a special attack done by the Stars, so it would be backup right? Yes or no, either way, those special attacks have a higher 'effect' rate than items do, as well as a WAAAAY longer start-up rate. Do stopwatches affect Bowser in TTYD? And can someone refresh my memory if PP1's time-stopping Star Power (or freezing, or weakening... Any status effect is good) affects Bowser when he is not invincible, or any other big boss?

But how can she speed boost past something that's right infront of her? He most likely used it as camoflouge since enemies payed no notice.

Ah, but that would be an assumption. The point remains that enemies walk right past Mario and Mario doesn't act like a wall. Why would they be able to walk around Mario and not around pipes or blocks?

I was talking about it not working on Bowser, which you've already answered, but you should know that some attacks don't really work on all bosses, especially last bosses.

Well, I'd need to find out if status-altering items work on other bosses, then try status-altering abilities (like the Star Powers'). If someone knows please say so, so I can save me the trouble of looking for this info.

But this is about characters at full potential, right?

Yes, characters at full potential... Not players at full potential. Hell, Samus and Snake could headshot instantly all the time in way less than a second if we talked about players' full potentials, yet we give them 'time to aim'... Like Zelda/Link and their arrows too, and a bunch of other characters.

Why didn't Bowser wish Mario dead in Paper Mario? Why didn't Nastasia control the Mario gangs/Dimetio's mind in the last battle?

Story mechanics, man. Wouldn't be much of a game if all of Bowser's enemies died whenever he wanted them to, right? And SPM would have a crappy ending (and not that really sad one that it has now, i love it a lot) if Nastasia could control Dimentio. I could come up with theories, but they'd all be assumptions.

I thought you were using just Paper Mario? I heard that TTYD Bowser was like Super Paper Mario Bowser

I was using Paper Mario Bowser as the invincibility example, what do you mean by this? o_O
 

PowerBomb

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There are occasionally multiple targets on an opponents body, sometimes on the head. Samus could always do that or something.
 
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