Smash Bros. Canon Tournament! (Mario Vs. ????) - 06/14/10

[PowerBomb]

Dusknoir is something else to Dusclops just as Butterfree is something else to Metapod…

And again…the only things that Dusclops is absorbing really seems to be various spirits/prey…it doesn’t say jack about earth…but considering how you seem to think it that much…why don’t you tell me who would win…Palkia at full power or a Dusclops?

My god, it says ANYTHING. ANYTHING includes EVERYTHING which includes LAND/EARTH. The DPPt series imposed a limit on it (via its mouth) but it's still able to absorb ANYTHING. Dusknoir, on the other hand, does different things. Also... 'it is said'.

It is said to take lost spirits into its pliant body and guide them home.

Its body is hollow. It is said that those who look into its body are sucked into the void.

There are some more 'it is said''s but...

DUSCLOPS absorbs anything, however large the object may be. This POKéMON hypnotizes its foe by waving its hands in a macabre manner and by bringing its single eye to bear. The hypnotized foe is made to do DUSCLOPS's bidding.

Palkia v. Dusclops? In what? 100 v 100 or something? Obviously, in-game battles, Palkia would hurt Dusclops too much for it to actually do anything. Low HP much?

Because there are several things that prove that they aren’t truly invincible with them…with Mario you’d better not fall down a hole…hell even when a foe gets a “power star” (as seen in Super Paper Mario) they don’t beat everything in one hit…

I've never played SPM through. Falling down a hole is an obstacle. How would you be invincible to that? Would you just jump out or something? It's a 'lose a life, reset the level' thing.

Samus I’ve talked about to death and back…and you guys still don’t get it even when foes in each of the games that are there can stop the speed booster/damage Samus while she is using it…but I haven’t talked about Sonic yet as much as I should IMO…

Rofl, if the game states it is invincible, and if she is invincible bar a small amount of monsters, than she's invincible. Arguing otherwise would make you sound strange, as you're arguing for the Dex, saying that very few entries contradict the gameplay and should be disregarded. Why shouldn't the few monsters that lol at game mechanics be disregarded, then?

Well for one thing…you read into the dex to the point where you spin what the makers have said about it…why not just say that Charizard can burn the whole earth to ashes in one time as well? After all…he can **** up anything with his fire…

That's what the Dex says... What are we supposed to do? Not take it literally and forget the entire battle system so we can make up some fanfiction style for Pokemon Trainer and Mewtwo?

Samus losing her power ups in most of the cases…we have accepted that as just a mech. because of the many issues about it…

orite
Gameplay lolz at it and there is really no reason why it should've happened aside from 'stop making game so easy'.

So why can’t we do the same things with various pokemon and Ness/Lucas’ powers…when there are clear examples that they have some limits/made up on their stuff as well…a whale and a cat can’t make a baby together…and that Ness/Lucas are limited to sort of balance things out between their party members…

We didn't give Samus any new abilities >_>
Skitty and Wailord are NOT, I repeat, NOT the animals we think they are. They are POKEMON, in a VIDEO GAME intended mainly for CHILDREN. How they mate is NOT supposed to make sense!

I’m not saying we should throw out the entires…I'm saying just stop assuming things like a single pokemon that they don’t say it can do…things like everything/any are far too broad of a definition to accept IMO when it comes to talking about destroying a planet…but hey...why not assume even further along that line? I guess a single Dusclops is a universal threat according to what you are saying...

That's what the Dex says.

I’m pretty sure there are more that make sense than those that don’t if you really want to get into this…unlike the move pools for pokemon…I have yet to see a rattata change the weather outside of “battle” in a cutscene for the game…plus I want to know how come Quick attack isn’t a 1st strike move in mystery dungeon still…or how about where is Pikachu’s low hp and defense in mystery dungeon?

Changing the weather in-battle is regarded as temporary, and does not affect the weather outside of the battle time, since the weather affects would have already stopped. Besides, you don't even FIND Ratata knowing the move. If you want to disregard the entire movepool for every single Pokemon... well then, we have a fanfiction. I don't regard PMD as canon to the Version games. It's canon to itself, but it's not canon to the Version games.

Really though...Dex>Mool pool, stats, and type chart...just saying...

Again, this makes it a fanfiction. Every argument for Mewtwo and PT instantly becomes fanfiction and extremely hard to argue. Seriously, types? What?

EDIT: The Pokedex even STATES the types for the Pokemon!
EDIT2: Wait, not sure. I think the FrLg one does, but I forgot and sold my copy of Lg.
EDIT3: Yeah, the DPPt one does indeed state the types for Pokemon.

 

[_clinton]

Palkia v. Dusclops? In what? 100 v 100 or something? Obviously, in-game battles, Palkia would hurt Dusclops too much for it to actually do anything. Low HP much?

Outside of game mechs Dusclops would lose to Palkia as well…but whatever…

I've never played SPM through. Falling down a hole is an obstacle. How would you be invincible to that? Would you just jump out or something? It's a 'lose a life, reset the level' thing.

Rofl, if the game states it is invincible, and if she is invincible bar a small amount of monsters, than she's invincible.

One game says she is invincible…one
It is never repeated at all…and the definition clashes with what is said for later games…

Arguing otherwise would make you sound strange, as you're arguing for the Dex, saying that very few entries contradict the gameplay and should be disregarded.

Actually pretty much ever entry in the dex contradicts the gameplay in said games…

Why shouldn't the few monsters that lol at game mechanics be disregarded, then?

Well for one thing…the few monsters that prove it wrong are a bit stronger than 90% of Samus’ other foes…which btw…having 5+ types of shriek bats is just funny…

Gameplay lolz at it and there is really no reason why it should've happened aside from 'stop making game so easy'.

Which is the same thing and dealing with Ness/Lucas
BTW…that doesn’t excuse Metroid Zero Mission’s lose of the suit still…just saying…

We didn't give Samus any new abilities >_>

Except you’re saying that she can use abilities together that she has never been seen to use together…

Hell…I don’t know why I’m agreeing with you guys about Samus’ suit for some areas…because there are clear limits on it (in that Samus does have to “concentrate” in order to keep the skills…so if anything that could be why she does lose them in between some games…she isn’t in battle mode 100% of the time you know)

Skitty and Wailord are NOT, I repeat, NOT the animals we think they are. They are POKEMON, in a VIDEO GAME intended mainly for CHILDREN. How they mate is NOT supposed to make sense!

Actually I would consider Pokemon’s “story” for pre-teens through teen years…who are still “under age”…but whatever…
You know because the focus of the story is to “be the best” in the world which has only “one important thing” about it…kind of like the Metroid series for the most part…which btw I like how your excuse for the BS is because you are giving it a “mature” label…

I mean…If it was for younger kids…the full story would be done with in less than 15 minutes or otherwise be summed up as quite short/simple or include such a concept as bad guys are only bad…good guys are good…so…anyone else like how Phazon and the X aren’t like that at all?
Or how about how the series never has given the for the GF has with one exception (which btw they haven’t build on after Fusion) the “good guys” label and space pirates are only “bad guys”

Yes…there is nothing BS about the Metroid series at all…

Ironically with you calling pokemon kiddy…I could probably find more “mature” examples in that game alone than what is in the Metroid game base…but whatever…

BTW…ever read Abiyoyo? It has nothing to do with the conversation…but I figured you would like an example of a story that really is for young kids but has various “fun filled themes” in it…

That's what the Dex says.

Actually…that is what you say…just because it says “everything” doesn’t mean it is including “planets/universe” into that definition…
The dex only gives hints dealing with the planet with only a few certain pokemon…as in if they wanted to actually do it with Dusclops…they would…but they don’t mention anything about the planet at all with him…so it is clearly only you that has given the thing that amount of power…

You are aware that it is possible to say something…but not in truth fully mean such a thing that it says right?
Do you really think the phrase “I'll give you a piece of my mind” means that the person will do said thing with their mind?

Changing the weather in-battle is regarded as temporary, and does not affect the weather outside of the battle time, since the weather affects would have already stopped. Besides, you don't even FIND Ratata knowing the move.

Right…because of it being temporary…that makes it ok huh? I still want to know how humanity can live with a bunch of rodents that can possibly bring upon a rain fall whenever they want…

I mean…who needs the pokemon that deal with the weather according to the pokedex when you have a rattata doing it as well?

If you want to disregard the entire movepool for every single Pokemon... well then, we have a fanfiction.

The fact that 300 or so pokemon can learn the same move seems to add to that actually being fan fiction in itself

I don't regard PMD as canon to the Version games. It's canon to itself, but it's not canon to the Version games.

How would you not consider it canon to the main series?
It builds upon what is seen in the pokedex…as in doesn’t clash with its definitions and even proves several of them (your main character becoming a pokemon for example…Ninetails’ curse that it can use)

It’s sort of like a “Shadow the Hedgehog” game if anything…it’s not a “Mario Party” game…

Again, this makes it a fanfiction. Every argument for Mewtwo and PT instantly becomes fanfiction and extremely hard to argue. Seriously, types? What?

I hardly see it has being hard to argue…there is plenty of things in the games backing stuff up that is seen in the pokedex (Mewtwo and where he makes his home is if anything proof of how strong the ****er must be)

And I don’t see how you couldn’t say someone can’t be resistant to fire still…if anything...it’s more important than before when you are dealing with a certain group of pokemon…and what they could do if you aren’t wearing a “fire suit”

And yeah…even types…try using the move thundershock on a Wooper in the main games but then use it in MD…and see how it is different…like how thundershock will hurt the thing for example...or how about the fact that the move "struggle" isn't in mystery dungeon...what happens when you run out of PP? Nothing...you have a "normal" attack!

 

[PowerBomb]

One game says she is invincible…one
It is never repeated at all…and the definition clashes with what is said for later games…

What are you talking about? Nothing clashes with it. The later definitions don't repeat it and don't contradict it. One game? So what, doesn't stop it from being canon and true.

Actually pretty much ever entry in the dex contradicts the gameplay in said games…

Didn't you say not every entry contradicts the gameplay?

Well for one thing…the few monsters that prove it wrong are a bit stronger than 90% of Samus’ other foes…which btw…having 5+ types of shriek bats is just funny…

There are three types of Shreikbats: Regular, Ice, and Dark >_>
You're kidding, right? Bosses don't (or shouldn't) count since you're not even supposed to Speed Boost at them. However, you can Speed Boost the SA-X, who is more powerful than the majority of the Super Metroid foes, and you don't take damage from it. The other 'invincible' foes Samus faces are obstacle enemies, not meant to be defeated >_> Work robots (or whatever), right?

Except you’re saying that she can use abilities together that she has never been seen to use together…

She CAN use them together. That's what her Suit is supposed to do >_>

Hell…I don’t know why I’m agreeing with you guys about Samus’ suit for some areas…because there are clear limits on it (in that Samus does have to “concentrate” in order to keep the skills…so if anything that could be why she does lose them in between some games…she isn’t in battle mode 100% of the time you know)

Prime series: she loses parts to her Suit after or into a battle. In between games is all like 'game must not be easy'.

Actually I would consider Pokemon’s “story” for pre-teens through teen years…who are still “under age”…but whatever…
You know because the focus of the story is to “be the best” in the world which has only “one important thing” about it…kind of like the Metroid series for the most part…which btw I like how your excuse for the BS is because you are giving it a “mature” label…

And I suppose all of the cutesy elements in the game are for teenagers, right? It's aimed at children... I'm giving Metroid a mature label for the BS? Quote me on where I say this, please.

I mean…If it was for younger kids…the full story would be done with in less than 15 minutes or otherwise be summed up as quite short/simple or include such a concept as bad guys are only bad…good guys are good…so…anyone else like how Phazon and the X aren’t like that at all?

15 minutes? You are joking, right?

Or how about how the series never has given the for the GF has with one exception (which btw they haven’t build on after Fusion) the “good guys” label and space pirates are only “bad guys”

Yes…there is nothing BS about the Metroid series at all…

Ironically with you calling pokemon kiddy…I could probably find more “mature” examples in that game alone than what is in the Metroid game base…but whatever…

Lol bashing Metroid in a Pokemon debate

Actually…that is what you say…just because it says “everything” doesn’t mean it is including “planets/universe” into that definition…
The dex only gives hints dealing with the planet with only a few certain pokemon…as in if they wanted to actually do it with Dusclops…they would…but they don’t mention anything about the planet at all with him…so it is clearly only you that has given the thing that amount of power…

You're kidding, right? Everything includes planets and the land. Go to a dictionary. I don't understand why that is so terribly hard to realize. 'Everything' includes anything, which can be a planet.

You are aware that it is possible to say something…but not in truth fully mean such a thing that it says right?
Do you really think the phrase “I'll give you a piece of my mind” means that the person will do said thing with their mind?

This is the Pokedex, not an everyday play on words. They aren't the same or similar. The Pokedex is supposed to be an encyclopedia on Pokemon that has FACT in it. Facts are supposed to be proved, and the Dex doesn't prove some of its stuff.

Right…because of it being temporary…that makes it ok huh? I still want to know how humanity can live with a bunch of rodents that can possibly bring upon a rain fall whenever they want…
I mean…who needs the pokemon that deal with the weather according to the pokedex when you have a rattata doing it as well?

_clinton, the Ratata you find during your travels do not god **** learn Rain Dance. They have to be taught it by a trainer. It's why you don't see it raining in Pallet Town from millions of Ratata doing a dance or some stuff like that.

The fact that 300 or so pokemon can learn the same move seems to add to that actually being fan fiction in itself

I don't think Gamefreak is going to give unique moves to every ****ing Pokemon just because some 300 Pokemon learn 'Protect' or 'Hyper Beam'.

How would you not consider it canon to the main series?
It builds upon what is seen in the pokedex…as in doesn’t clash with its definitions and even proves several of them (your main character becoming a pokemon for example…Ninetails’ curse that it can use)

1. A startling amount of moves were changed to fit the scheme, but still different than the main series
2. A couple new moves were introduced that don't exist in the main series
3. A LOT of new items were introduced. These items do not exist in the canon of the main series, although you could argue something about gummi's and poffins (despite having nothing in common...well, smartness maybe)
4. A LOT of items were changed entirely.
5. Pokemon don't evolve unless gone to a special place. This afflicts like, 10 Pokemon in the main series while it afflicts everyone in the game. No prompt given either.
6. Lol Time Gears
7. Lol dungeons
8. Look at their MAP. It is NOTHING like Kanto, Sinnoh, Hoenn, Johto. PMD1 and 2 have different maps, even. It's like the only things canon between them are the way their moves work.
9. Moves have a severe range limitation that isn't really shown in the version games, not that much of a big deal
10. orite, their stats are NOTHING alike. BST is completely different.
11. Pokemon get hungry (nah, I'm kidding here )
12. Oh right, Dusclops opens its mouth when defeated. Nothing happens. Dex contradiction to main series and in this game if you want to do that

There's a lot of weird things in there. Like Regigigas. And a non-telepathic human freely communicating with Pokemon. Celebi is limited... don't care much about that, really.

I hardly see it has being hard to argue…there is plenty of things in the games backing stuff up that is seen in the pokedex (Mewtwo and where he makes his home is if anything proof of how strong the ****er must be)

Those Pokemon are terribly weak. Let's not limit Mewtwo here. Wild Pokemon are much weaker than trained Pokemon at the same level. And I'm not talking about EVs here, or IVs. They're actually weaker when not trained by a trainer.

And yeah…even types…try using the move thundershock on a Wooper in the main games but then use it in MD…and see how it is different…like how thundershock will hurt the thing for example...or how about the fact that the move "struggle" isn't in mystery dungeon...what happens when you run out of PP? Nothing...you have a "normal" attack!

The move Struggle IS in PMD. Yeah, it's in PMD. Functions in the same way as the games one does (less recoil damage...much less). And that's another contradiction to the way the main series works as well. Small type chart change.

_clinton, stop bashing Metroid. Focus on the debate at hand: Pokedex or whatever

 

[UncleSam]

ppl are complaining about Samus? fill me in guys.

EDIT: powerbomb ur wrong there are more then 3 species of shriekbat
http://metroid.wikia.com/wiki/Shriekbat
start counting:
there are 4, 5 if you count the Elysian bat which is a robot.

 

[Samochan]

Some dex entries, like bronzor(ong) entry, state they actually do research their pokemon. Like that particular pokemon was x-rayed, but resulted in nothing. Inability to prove information within pokemon's fairly limited work doesn't mean it's automatically false either till you prove it's not true. I don't see the battle mechanics are really any good source to prove pokedex is faulty with it's limitations, no tie-in with the dex nor outside world seemingly. Not even the same pokes that can do funky stuff within the pokeverse proving the dex correct in those entries (liek celebi time traveling with trainers), they're unable to do so in battles. Battle system is no conclusive proof dex = faulty.

And why game mechanic contradiction between games means it's not canon? >_> That would mean every single game contradicts itself and not canon, from same series no less. <_<

It's game mechanics, jeez. They're different in every game

Lol at the map being different. I'd assume the map is different if you know, it happens in different place than those 4 places you mentioned. Besides you forgot Orre.

PMD1 came before sinnoh, does that mean sinnoh doesn't exist in canon cause it's not part of kanto, johto or hoenn? Or that johto, hoenn and sinnoh cannot exist cause they're not part of kanto? =)

 

[PowerBomb]

I've never played MP:3, UncleSam. Samochan, that smiley face irritates me for some reason o_o
Samochan, I'd like proof as to why PMD is canon to the main series. PMD1 isn't even canon to PMD2 >_>

But you're right, I was being stupid when I wrote down the battle system. But seriously, several legends have been established to dwell in certain places in the series, while in PMD1/2, they're... different.

Giratina doesn't dwell in... what dungeon was it? This one weird dungeon via Wifi event. Darkrai dwells on that one island, and doesn't plot to consume the world in darkness. It's not even stated to be evil (is it? forgot).

Entei, Suicune, and Raikou are supposed to be dashing around or not moving at all, not in these several habitats across the sea. Although, PMD2 could retcon this a bit since they randomly appear when you have a special item (non-existent in the series). Although, I know Suicune may turn up in a training course for recruitment (lawl)

Samo, are you saying that the Dex is true until proved otherwise, despite the obvious flaws with some of its entries and hearsay associated with it?

Another thing: Battling ties in with the story... How else would you become the Pokemon Champ and stop Team _____?

 

[_clinton]

I forgot to talk about this:

I've never played SPM through. Falling down a hole is an obstacle. How would you be invincible to that? Would you just jump out or something? It's a 'lose a life, reset the level' thing.

Funny…they don’t say you are open to obstacles like being crushed…all they say is that you are invincible…even though a foe getting their hands on said star should do the same thing to them…but it doesn’t…as seen in SPM…funny how the turtle that is invincible can’t beat you in one hit…even though he is using the same item…oh and how you beat him with said 2nd star that is just in the block next to it…

BTW again on Speed booster with Samus and how the only thing stating that she is invincible happens to be in the form of a very old instruction booklet…

What if I point out to you right now…that when Super Metroid was re-released for the Wii…the only part of that translation that got carried over for its instruction booklet was the thing about the super high speed…as in it doesn’t say that she is invincible while performing it?

http://i645.photobucket.com/albums/uu175/ClintonV/0c85610a.jpg

See...they don't back up the invincibility statement...the wording is the same thing for what it says in the SNES booklet...except for the invincibility part...I wonder why?

Feel free and blow $8 or do what I had to do to get that info (someone was broadcasting and I asked them to show it when they wanted requests ^_^)

Well...I'd better look into the other things posted now...

What are you talking about? Nothing clashes with it. The later definitions don't repeat it and don't contradict it. One game? So what, doesn't stop it from being canon and true.

Again…the latter definitions only show what the family does with those souls the younger one “eats.” How about that…they guide souls to the afterlife or something to that effect…

Didn't you say not every entry contradicts the gameplay?

Read what I say please…I said “pretty much” as in I know there are some exceptions to the rules…but as for like 90% of the pokemon being able to control the weather w/o any indication that they can with the pokedex’s only saying that a few can do it at best and are even limited with it…that is a clear contradiction…

There are three types of Shreikbats: Regular, Ice, and Dark >_>

Ah…no…and btw…shriek bats are only one example…

You're kidding, right? Bosses don't (or shouldn't) count since you're not even supposed to Speed Boost at them. However, you can Speed Boost the SA-X, who is more powerful than the majority of the Super Metroid foes, and you don't take damage from it. The other 'invincible' foes Samus faces are obstacle enemies, not meant to be defeated >_> Work robots (or whatever), right?

I’m pretty sure your view of being unable to speed boost into Crocomire is wrong…when he is in a large open room about 4x the length of the room needed for powering up speed booster…I’m pretty sure the people who made the game thought about the player trying to use it…
Also…where can you ram the SA-X with the speed booster if you don’t mind my asking? You have 4/6 potentially deadly encounters with the thing before you fight it for number 7 IIRC…2 of them you had better avoid because you can just by waiting (plus you lack a extreme res. suit)…1 just requires passing through a morph ball section to actually get you…but didn’t for some reason…and just tried to shoot you and the final being a pain in the *** to deal with sometimes…

Of course I don’t even know why I’m arguing this when I have photo proof that Super Metroid’s manual is BS now…

She CAN use them together. That's what her Suit is supposed to do >_>

She has been shown that she can use several parts of the gear together…but hasn’t done it for gameplay…sort of like how Ness/Lucas are gifted with god level PK…but don’t use certain lower forms PK for silly reasons such as balance…

How come you don’t get what I’m hinting at?

And I suppose all of the cutesy elements in the game are for teenagers, right? It's aimed at children...

I’m pretty sure pokemon’s “only” demographic is young kids when stuff like this happens in its things huh?

Plenty of things about the games are clearly aimed over younger heads as well…
I’m sure the concept of ghost type using the move curse is just cute as well…I mean…sticking a nail into your face…then by concept doing the same thing to your opponent…or how about possessed people saying they want your blood while you are exploring a tower that has a bunch of pokemon that died from Team Rocket running around in it?

Oh and Darkrai…the concept about how you get him is fun…you save a kid who was put into an eternal sleep…who was having eternal nightmares…and that is just how you get Cressy…getting Darkrai requires you to enter a house that no one has entered for 50+ years and you end up having to go to sleep and dealing with Darkrai personally…and then you find out that you’ve been asleep for “a while”

There is plenty of stuff awesome about this series actually:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/NightmareFuel/Ptitlei015gc004kw4?from=NightmareFuel.Pokemon

Hell…I’m sure environmental terrorists and insane cultist (best way to talk about the things you are dealing with in the 3rd and 4th gens I guess) are kid friendly as well…

I'm giving Metroid a mature label for the BS? Quote me on where I say this, please.

So…how come you are giving the Metroid games a free pass to get away with off the wall stuff as just a game mech...but then you assume pokemon stuff that is BS as stuff they really do no matter what?
The fact that you are arguing for certain Metroid stuff that has clear issues with the canon and saying shouldn’t count shows that you view it as clearly as “better” in some way than what is with pokemon…

Even though with the Metroid series...hardly all of it is ok…you have to love the range on what Samus’ weapons are when it comes to reliable “measurements”…either they aren’t given much of any info at all about them…or the things are just blown way off the charts...like able to commit mass murder with just one of them in MP:H…

Of course…that is just what I’m observing…
Going on with this...Even though breeding in the pokemon world has only officially been seen with others like it for real examples…like a Mother Butterfree having a baby caterpie…you still think that that hot kitty on whale action is happening in the game for reals...

However, I have yet to see any crazy “in game” examples other than what your character does to get a move set on a pokemon...which again...said move set is a perfect example of game mechs (4 move limit is just the 1st one)

Another thing that doesn’t make sense about the system is how you make a baby Cubone…the thing’s mother is still alive…even though guess where that skull is said to come from? I guess you must have been given a different pokemon when you went to get it back huh? A different pokemon that has the same ID that the old one has…

15 minutes? You are joking, right?

For the average metroid game as of late…I’m pretty sure I could sum up the full story for the game pretty easily…because even though Nintendo has a “good” potential story with like how about regards to what happens after Metroid Fusion and what Samus’ relationship could be like with the GF after destroying their space station and blowing up a planet…or even her itself because she has potentially:
-human
-chozo
-metroid
-pirate cyborg zombie space dragon
-and so on
DNA running within her now in case you don’t get that, but they are ok with not giving us any idea of what happens after that one game…they’d rather milk her “mysterious past” some more…set in motion by her gift giving 2nd family who did some stupid things in the end of their race along with all of their brilliant things…

Lol bashing Metroid in a Pokemon debate

You are the one who asked me what were some BS things about the series IMO…so I hardly consider it random bashing…or bashing at all (more like critique)

I mean…you can’t tell me that the space pirates have any other role “in the games” so far other than them being complete and total “jerks” that go around and willingly commit mass murder...

This is the Pokedex, not an everyday play on words. They aren't the same or similar. The Pokedex is supposed to be an encyclopedia on Pokemon that has FACT in it. Facts are supposed to be proved, and the Dex doesn't prove some of its stuff.

Again…like you said…it’s just a game…it’s hardly going to have the same standards that we would give to a real life equivalent for talking about things…so of course it going to have the same issues that some of Samus’ things have as well…

Like I said before…there is proof that people didn’t do any real background research on this…they just looked at various concepts and wrote that they have it “better” in some EXTREME way…

Sort of like how Superman has crazy powers like oh say…super hypnosis…the person behind it clearly didn’t look into what hypnosis really was before giving it to Superman for a single story and never bringing it up again…

So to sumerize...They clearly gave it to them in these examples…but they failed badly when it came to explaining them…to the point where it would be better to break it down for “what they intend” instead of “what they said”
Doing that is by far better IMO than just throwing it out…which is again…what I want to do with the move pool…I don’t want to just throw the full thing out…I’d rather compare and see what actually matches with the things dex./everything else

the Ratata you find during your travels do not god **** learn Rain Dance. They have to be taught it by a trainer. It's why you don't see it raining in Pallet Town from millions of Ratata doing a dance or some stuff like that.

The way of learning a TM is the same from learn a breading move…it is a product of a game mech.
They naturally have flaws…

Considering how wild pokemon have free access to TMs in other games and other stuff…and adding to what you think is ok with the breeding system (what they have in game)…it wouldn’t take much for the world to be filled with weather controlling rodents if we all go by your views on it…hell the thing doesn’t even have to learn it from a TM…it can get it from a parent that had the move before it as well…

You'd better hope that a trainer doesn't release a rattata into the community that knows how to change the weather...

1. A startling amount of moves were changed to fit the scheme, but still different than the main series
2. A couple new moves were introduced that don't exist in the main series
3. A LOT of new items were introduced. These items do not exist in the canon of the main series, although you could argue something about gummi's and poffins (despite having nothing in common...well, smartness maybe)
4. A LOT of items were changed entirely.
9. Moves have a severe range limitation that isn't really shown in the version games, not that much of a big deal
10. orite, their stats are NOTHING alike. BST is completely different.

Which is my point about how the game mechs are different than actually canon info for the pokemon series…I like it when people do work for me in proving my point…

The only thing that is for certain as in “the same” in between all of the games is the pokedex…even in the main games themselves in case you don’t get that…
Like how the special stat was split, two new types where added, traits were added, and now moves have been split as well…but has the pokedex really changed nearly as much? Last I checked I’m still seeing the thing talk about Alakazam somehow having an IQ of 5000 at least one a gen per entry of the dex…but I don’t see him wanting to throw a fire punch now compared to what it was like once…

5. Pokemon don't evolve unless gone to a special place. This afflicts like, 10 Pokemon in the main series while it afflicts everyone in the game. No prompt given either.

There is a “reason” for it in the 1st game (a nice typical story about D-Day and how your character is going to save everyone has a reason for why pokemon can’t do it naturally right now)

I don’t have any info about the 2nd or 3rd games though

8. Look at their MAP. It is NOTHING like Kanto, Sinnoh, Hoenn, Johto. PMD1 and 2 have different maps, even. It's like the only things canon between them are the way their moves work.

It doesn’t have to be anything like Kanto or those other places…if you actually read some part of an older post from me...the pokedex gives clear hints that various pokemon have their own "special places" away from humanity that we don't know about (Marowak for example)

So...what is so extreme about a community away from humans at all?

12. Oh right, Dusclops opens its mouth when defeated. Nothing happens. Dex contradiction to main series and in this game if you want to do that

How? All that shows is that Dusclops’ “black hole” only works when it is not fainted…

Those Pokemon are terribly weak. Let's not limit Mewtwo here. Wild Pokemon are much weaker than trained Pokemon at the same level. And I'm not talking about EVs here, or IVs. They're actually weaker when not trained by a trainer.

Um…having EVs are the result of training…IVs aren’t in the human affected area at all except by extreme examples such as forced incest breeding (humans suck ^_^ but I guess this isn't that rare in real life as well)…so the reason that they are “weaker” is because they lack EVs…as in the trained part of them…it has nothing to do with their natural stats (IVs)…

It's perfectly acceptable that you might come across a 31 IV across the board poke in that place or anywhere for that matter…but because it hasn’t had any human interaction…EVs will naturally be lacking...

510 EVs in total that you can give to your pokemon now for the current game mechs…with 255 as a max for one stat…1 stat point bonus is your reward for every 4 EVs you pump into a stat…with a 10% bonus + or - towards what trait you may have as extra

Oh and I hardly consider the place that has some of the strongest pokemon in it…week...just because they are wild…like I said…the only thing they aren’t is trained to work with humans…and I would hardly be limiting Mewtwo with this…because there is in game proof that he was with humans at one point…who knows what actually triggered him wanting to run off?

The move Struggle IS in PMD. Yeah, it's in PMD. Functions in the same way as the games one does (less recoil damage...much less). And that's another contradiction to the way the main series works as well. Small type chart change.

It’s not a contradiction…it’s only ****ing proof that a dungeon crawler/hack n’ slash should have naturally a different game mechs. than a RPG…sort of like how a 3D first person shooter for the gamecube will naturally have different game mechs. than an 2D action platformer game for the SNES…

And if anything…those game mechs. for MD are far more in depth than what shows for the RPG (How does Quick attack strike 1st? As in…how could you really define that if you wanted to look at another game type? At least for MD the thing is seen as just a distant hit and run attack)

And going on with how it is better…special traits about it are better for one as well…pokemon like Abra float, ghosts can pass through walls, and so on…all of these actually shown in the game play for those games…they are also far more in depth with the pokemon for those games than the main series is for a good % of them

 

[Crystanium]

See...they don't back up the invincibility statement...the wording is the same thing for what it says in the SNES booklet...except for the invincibility part...I wonder why?

Lack of space, or it could simply just be that they wanted succinct information. This is apparent when they aren't even fitting the rest of the information into the other items.

Screw Attack

"This item allows you to somersault into enemies and blast them out of the air." (Wii Version)

vs

"This powerful item turns Samus' suit into a weapon. When the Screw Attack is activated, Samus can somersault into the enemies and blast them out of the air." (SM Instruction Booklet)

I guess it's not a powerful item. I guess it doesn't turn Samus' suit into a weapon.

Hi-Jump Boots

"These boots increase your jump ability." (Wii Version)

vs

"The Hi-Jump Boots allow Samus to reach higher places." (SM Instruction Booklet)

Notice the difference in the length of the sentences.

Space Jump

"These boots allow you to perform multiple spin jumps continuously." (Wii Version)

vs

"With the Space Jump Boots, Samus can jump continuously in the air and fly through open areas. To operate this item, press the jump button just after Samus peaks in a somersault jump." (SM Instruction Booklet)

I guess she cannot fly through open areas, though.

Speed Booster

"These boots allow you to run at a super high speed." (Wii Version)

vs

"These boots allow Samus to run at a super high speed and make her invincible as she runs through enemies." (SM Instruction Booklet)

They may have well just said that Samus was running at "supersonic speeds" here. I guess we don't know how fast she's running.

Sorry. I said I wasn't going to return here, but I'm not for the arguments about two characters. It's about this one thing that _clinton has an obsession with, and it just irks me to death. I'll be out of everyone's hair.

And about Arbok, it just looks like a piece of steak being cut in half. No blood? Not even in the manga? Man, that is childish.

 

[PowerBomb]

_clinton, YOU were the one who brought up Metroid in the first place. Also, when you fight the SA-X (final battle), you can freeze it and Speed Boost into it. No damage much?

Um…having EVs are the result of training…IVs aren’t in the human affected area at all except by extreme examples such as forced incest breeding (humans suck ^_^ but I guess this isn't that rare in real life as well)…so the reason that they are “weaker” is because they lack EVs…as in the trained part of them…it has nothing to do with their natural stats (IVs)…

NOOOOO. A Pokemon caught at level 100 with 31 in every IV but no EV training will have less stats than that exact same Pokemon caught at level 50 with 31 in every IV, trained to level 100, and then given EV reducing berries.

There is plenty of stuff awesome about this series actually:

I've read that before. Not a big deal, the way the game acts, especially the region's 'terrorists'.

How? All that shows is that Dusclops’ “black hole” only works when it is not fainted…

He also opens his mouth when you hurt him (and when he attacks, not too sure though).

So…how come you are giving the Metroid games a free pass to get away with off the wall stuff as just a game mech...but then you assume pokemon stuff that is BS as stuff they really do no matter what?
The fact that you are arguing for certain Metroid stuff that has clear issues with the canon and saying shouldn’t count shows that you view it as clearly as “better” in some way than what is with pokemon…

Lol Speed Booster. A few things can pierce the invincibility (mainly bosses, some of which you can't Speed Boost against anyway). The majority of the bosses you can Speed Boost to in MF (lol SA-X is the only one), you don't get hurt when you run into them. The game explains her power-ups, she uses them, the gameplay does not contradict the description of the move. The Pokedex tells you what Pokemon do, doesn't prove it in some cases, and the gameplay contradicts it. In some Pokedex entries, the Dex references moves, btw.

Even though with the Metroid series...hardly all of it is ok…you have to love the range on what Samus’ weapons are when it comes to reliable “measurements”…either they aren’t given much of any info at all about them…or the things are just blown way off the charts...like able to commit mass murder with just one of them in MP:H…

IIRC, the cannon didn't destroy the Alimbics. It was Gorea. The Alimbics did not use the cannon because they were afraid of its lethality.

I'm done with Wailord and Skitty. This is boring me. Talking about the Dex is not interesting. _clinton, if we throw out the movepool, types (which is in the Dex lulz), and the way they breed at times, we have effectively made Pokemon really, really different and changed the way it acts.

 

[Samochan]

NOOOOO. A Pokemon caught at level 100 with 31 in every IV but no EV training will have less stats than that exact same Pokemon caught at level 50 with 31 in every IV, trained to level 100, and then given EV reducing berries.

This is untrue powerbomb. You cannot calculate iv's with accuracy unless you have accounted how many ev's are in each stat. It's not possible for max iv pokemon to have less in stats without ev trainign than poke that has eaten ev reducing berries, because at lv.100 every iv difference affects the numerical number for each stat unlike on lower levels where the marginal is larger. So frankly, two pokes with 31 iv on some stat at cannot have any difference in statistics if neither have ev's.

And btw, you'd be hard pressed to find max iv pokemon from the wild lol, if even with one stat 31. It's either breed normally, RNG breed or RNG stationary pokemons like legendaries.

 

[PowerBomb]

This is untrue powerbomb. You cannot calculate iv's with accuracy unless you have accounted how many ev's are in each stat. It's not possible for max iv pokemon to have less in stats without ev trainign than poke that has eaten ev reducing berries, because at lv.100 every iv difference affects the numerical number for each stat unlike on lower levels where the marginal is larger. So frankly, two pokes with 31 iv on some stat at cannot have any difference in statistics if neither have ev's.

And btw, you'd be hard pressed to find max iv pokemon from the wild lol, if even with one stat 31. It's either breed normally, RNG breed or RNG stationary pokemons like legendaries.

I use an IV checker code :3
Or a 31 IV code

Or I'm wrong. Probably wrong, I don't calculate my IVs. I just PokeSav everything because I don't like spending too much time on a DS.

 

[fortwaffles]

I use an IV checker code :3
Or a 31 IV code

Or I'm wrong. Probably wrong, I don't calculate my IVs. I just PokeSav everything because I don't like spending too much time on a DS.

Pokemon Trainer Would send out Magikarp, and it would go "KARP KARP KARP" so much that Peach would get annoyed and Kill herself

 

[Samochan]

Pokemon Trainer Would send out Magikarp, and it would go "KARP KARP KARP" so much that Peach would get annoyed and Kill herself

You mean like this?

http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/377178

 

[WhatIsRaizen?]

So, did we get a victor yet?

 

[justaway12]

I still think it's Peach, Rock candy is too fast for Reds orders, but I seem to have strayed from the conversation since they seem to be talking about the validation of the pokedex.

 

[PowerBomb]

So, did we get a victor yet?

Yeah, it quickly went from that to the Dex. I'm leaning more towards Peach since the Parasol can block Embargo while she uses Rock Candy or something.

 

[fortwaffles]

Yeah, it quickly went from that to the Dex. I'm leaning more towards Peach since the Parasol can block Embargo while she uses Rock Candy or something.

I think that red could use Lapras's Parish song, and if he has another pokemon in reserve, he'd be the victor in time.
MAGIKARP USE SPLASH ATTACK!

 

[justaway12]

The thing is, she could use it before PKMN TRN commands his pokemon.

And perish song is a instant death/status effect which doesn't effect peach because of her accesories.

 

[REL38]

I think that red could use Lapras's Parish song, and if he has another pokemon in reserve, he'd be the victor in time.
MAGIKARP USE SPLASH ATTACK!

Rock Candy hits in less than one second.

Perish Song only works if Peach beats Lapras.
Rock Candy would kill PT.

@Justaway
What accessory was it again?
A ring or something?

 

[WhatIsRaizen?]

Alrighty then. Next MU.

Vs.

Current Match-Up:
THE HERO OF TIME Vs. THE MAN IN GREEN

Link Vs. Luigi

Vs.

Round 5, Match 7.

Overall Results

Wins +5:



Wins +4:

, , ,

Wins +3:



Wins +2:

, ,

Wins +1:

, , , , , , , , :mewtwo:

Neutral:

, , , ,

Loss -1:

, , , , , , ichu:

Loss -2:

,

Loss -3:

, , ,

Loss -4:

,

Loss -5:

,

 

[Samochan]

Dig and fly also work in less than second, it's not quite done yet. PT is allowed to have 2 pokes out in the beginnign ala double battles (which we've gone over at some point), but within battles he can also ride pokemons like when using surf, so nothign disallows PT from starting atop lugia/quick pokemon that learns dig or fly and immediately going out of range of rock candy.

Peach would be also stuck in her parasol if she wanted to avoid embargo from mewtwo (the secondary pokemon out), which is also very fast and pokes can do moves independently without trainer commands (and mewtwo being telepathic, could be commanded when using dig/fly). And if she was just stuck within her parasol, trying to avoid embrago, she'd be then totally open for machamp's no guard attacks. Oh and if she just did a rock candy and PT escapes, mewtwo has ample time to embargo her.

And if everything else fails, steelix could easily protect PT with it's huge body by wrapping around him and blocking the rock candy, then mewtwo is free to embargo peach. =)

Raizen, don't call the match quit just yet. >_>

 

[WhatIsRaizen?]

Just yet? It's almost been a week o_0.

and, you know I change match-ups even after they're done anyways.

 

[justaway12]

@Justaway
What accessory was it again?
A ring or something?

A ring, yes.

I think know would be a good time to bring up your thing about the bullet bills sinice Mario & Luigi both faced them. I can't do anything ATM.

 

[Sonic on the Rocks]

To clarify, since I'm not familiar with this thread, which version (or versions) of Link does the Link in the matchups represent?

 

[LUVTOY77-ROGUE WIREFRAME]

Hmmm.

I was part of the debate in the old thread. I've just been notified of this one... and I've got to say...

Major props to the OP for actually sticking with it

I'd like to join the debate.

 

[Joeadok]

With luigi vs link, I remind that luigi has invincibitity timestopping and sleep-inducing, along with potenial freezing and item stacking in his inventory.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Just to clarify, we're ("currently") using either TP Link OR OoT Link. TLink would be WW Link, while YLink is either MJ or either OoT Link (as a child).

 

[justaway12]

Dig and fly also work in less than second, it's not quite done yet. PT is allowed to have 2 pokes out in the beginnign ala double battles (which we've gone over at some point), but within battles he can also ride pokemons like when using surf, so nothign disallows PT from starting atop lugia/quick pokemon that learns dig or fly and immediately going out of range of rock candy.

Peach would be also stuck in her parasol if she wanted to avoid embargo from mewtwo (the secondary pokemon out), which is also very fast and pokes can do moves independently without trainer commands (and mewtwo being telepathic, could be commanded when using dig/fly). And if she was just stuck within her parasol, trying to avoid embrago, she'd be then totally open for machamp's no guard attacks. Oh and if she just did a rock candy and PT escapes, mewtwo has ample time to embargo her.

And if everything else fails, steelix could easily protect PT with it's huge body by wrapping around him and blocking the rock candy, then mewtwo is free to embargo peach. =)

Raizen, don't call the match quit just yet. >_>

By the time it takes him command it to use fly and get on, the Fire bomb would have already activated.

Embargo isn't eternal, it'll run out eventually, PKMN TRN can't give him a pokemon from so far away and when he uses he stops right after anyway.

 

[PowerBomb]

I think Luigi's items are too much of an overload for OoT/TP Link. TP Link has very little useful items, while OoT Link can... eh.

I seriously think Luigi can overdose Link with items. If Weegee equips the Big Shell (BiS) damage is nullified three times.

Dig and fly also work in less than second, it's not quite done yet. PT is allowed to have 2 pokes out in the beginnign ala double battles (which we've gone over at some point), but within battles he can also ride pokemons like when using surf, so nothign disallows PT from starting atop lugia/quick pokemon that learns dig or fly and immediately going out of range of rock candy.

It takes a bit for PT to actually get on the Pokemon. Seriously, it would take another bit to actually position PT on his Lugia/flying Pokemon to he doesn't fall off. I think Dig would be a very bumpy ride and would separate PT from his Pokes moreso than even Fly. We have no real idea of how long Embargo lasts as it's a turn-based move :/ 5-turns isn't so much, though... I presume Peach would be able to Rock Candy anyway, considering it isn't an item, right?

Peach would be also stuck in her parasol if she wanted to avoid embargo from mewtwo (the secondary pokemon out), which is also very fast and pokes can do moves independently without trainer commands (and mewtwo being telepathic, could be commanded when using dig/fly). And if she was just stuck within her parasol, trying to avoid embrago, she'd be then totally open for machamp's no guard attacks. Oh and if she just did a rock candy and PT escapes, mewtwo has ample time to embargo her.

Again, escaping would take some time. If Peach Rock Candy's quick enough, game over for PT.

And if everything else fails, steelix could easily protect PT with it's huge body by wrapping around him and blocking the rock candy, then mewtwo is free to embargo peach. =)

Mewtwo is getting hurt by Rock Candy as well... she could always drag out the match by killing Mewtwo and slowly getting to PT.

So do both characters know each other or is it a 'Scan Visor Offline' battle? It would change a lot of stuff...

 

[fortwaffles]

they would team up and eat candy together at captain falcon's house while they watch the video tape of red sending out lapras and using parish song on peach

 

[_clinton]

Lack of space, or it could simply just be that they wanted succinct information. This is apparent when they aren't even fitting the rest of the information into the other items.

Man your example of how they do this is off…it’s hardly a lack of space for most of the power ups…
http://i645.photobucket.com/albums/uu175/ClintonV/0c85610a.jpg
And I hardly see shortening the descriptions as a bad thing…when talking about something…which one is better when they say the same things almost…the 500 word description of the item…or the 20 word description of it?

The section for the Speed booster had more than enough room for them to fit in the term invincibility if they wanted to in case you don’t get that from looking at that picture…so why didn’t they?

I guess it's not a powerful item. I guess it doesn't turn Samus' suit into a weapon.

So…you need the book to tell that the screw attack is a weapon…when it flat out says that you can “blast your foes out of the air”

Notice the difference in the length of the sentences.

Yeah…and one of them actually informs you that you jump higher…where as the other one just says that you can reach higher spaces with it…which one is better if you didn’t know the name before hand?

I think I’ll go with the Wii one thank you…jumping higher is far more descriptive than “reach higher spaces”

I guess she cannot fly through open areas, though.

This is an example of Super Metroid’s SNES choppy translation if anything… at least the wii version flat out says that you can use spin jumps continuously right away…the SNES one 1st says that Samus can jump continuously in the air…making it 1st sound like you have unlimited jumps in total…THEN they tell the player you can only do it at the peak of a somersault jump…

Oh and I don’t see how you couldn’t put 2 and 2 together and figure out that with them using a term like…continuous spin jumps…she should be able to fly through areas…

I guess we don't know how fast she's running.

Yeah…because all Nintendo did for the Wii version of Super Metroid was give its instruction booklet a better translation…because translating things across different culture gaps btw…in case you don’t know…is ****ing hard to do…
You can’t tell me that they couldn’t fit invincible in there if they wanted to…the picture I gave clearly shows there is room left to type quite a bit more…

Sorry. I said I wasn't going to return here, but I'm not for the arguments about two characters. It's about this one thing that _clinton has an obsession with, and it just irks me to death. I'll be out of everyone's hair.

I’m sorry if I bug you…but what irks me to death is that it seems like if I’m the only one here who understands how things can end up with a bad translation, what the true difference between a game mech. and actual canon is, and how games can be censored very badly to the point where the original meaning behind the stuff can be loss from what I see…

And about Arbok, it just looks like a piece of steak being cut in half. No blood? Not even in the manga? Man, that is childish.

I wasn't aware there has to be blood flying everywhere for it to be considered "mature"

BTW…I’m pretty sure something like this:
http://i645.photobucket.com/albums/uu175/ClintonV/fef41189.jpg
Would still be very ****ing creepy if it didn’t have the blood/stitch marks…but that is just me…

YOU were the one who brought up Metroid in the first place. Also, when you fight the SA-X (final battle), you can freeze it and Speed Boost into it. No damage much?

You can't use the speed booster on the SA-X...have you seen that room you fight it in?
A. It is only a 2x2 room...Samus needs 2.5 blocks of flat even horizontal running space in order to activate her speed booster...
B. Samus can build the speed she needs up by using the elevator room to help her…so I’m aware that she could enter the room while running and pack the booster…
C. But she will only have shine spark energy of course…
D. Which will vanish by the time you make the SA-X comes in because you have to climb that room while spin jumping…although…I guess considering how you can use the booster on BOX for like 1 second as long as you don’t fall in the water:
http://i645.photobucket.com/albums/uu175/ClintonV/d85e297b.jpg

It might be possible to somehow get up there and try it on SA-X…
But the video I have of a 100% Speed Run didn’t do it…so…where is your source for her being able to pack this on him?
(Even then…I don’t see how the makers of the game wanted you to use the speed booster on BOX considering how you can come with it…so I’m sure it’s the same with SA-X)

Also...another question...how come Serris isn't invincible while using the speed booster? Wasn't that one of you guys original arguments about it as well besides the Super Metroid book? (which is no longer a working argument either considering the Wii re-release of the game has a better translation)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xroqahxuGI
Look at 24:43 and you can see Samus popping him in the head up close with a charge shot while it is clearly under speed booster effect...in fact...that entire fight has Samus blowing him in the head while it is moving like that (because this run is tool assisted)
See...Serris can be hurt while using the speed booster...another argument you guys have has been busted...
Oh and 24:51 has Samus killing it with a 2nd up close charge shot

Here is a picture for easy reference:
http://i645.photobucket.com/albums/uu175/ClintonV/00a107f7.jpg

BTW…I recommend watching that video…it is awesome ^_^

NOOOOO. A Pokemon caught at level 100 with 31 in every IV but no EV training will have less stats than that exact same Pokemon caught at level 50 with 31 in every IV, trained to level 100, and then given EV reducing berries.

Well…thankfully Samochan already corrected you with this anyway…so I don’t have to…

I've read that before. Not a big deal, the way the game acts, especially the region's 'terrorists'.

I like that stuff in there…some of it is very entertaining…but that is just me…

Lol Speed Booster. A few things can pierce the invincibility (mainly bosses, some of which you can't Speed Boost against anyway).

Yeah…and those few that Samus fights are stronger than normal foes…to the point where they are heavily resistant to Samus’ other normal weapons (needing a charge shot/missile in their mouth)

Notice how most normal foes don’t have any “defense” to even a normal plasma beam shot? (even though gold space pirates in fusion and whatever else is a body guard for ridley sometimes proves that even normal foes can be tough…of course…SM’s…man…they prove my point about not being hurt by the speed booster as well I might add…they can respond to it as well in fact)

Oh and canon wise…
-Samus has one boss where she could use the speed booster on…and she is better off just shooting it…because even aiming for the mouth won’t work…
-Serris isn’t invincible even though it’s using the same bloody thing Samus is using for one of her power ups…

IIRC, the cannon didn't destroy the Alimbics. It was Gorea. The Alimbics did not use the cannon because they were afraid of its lethality.

I didn’t say the canon destroyed the Alimbics…I said that their final product that they made is deadly

Oh and really…I like how you are still ok with Samus’ stuff being “over the top” but not ok with Pokemon’s (and I even point out where they are clearly over stepping the stuff…but you aren’t ok with that…it’s 100% or 0% with you isn’t it? It can’t be anything in between huh?)

Oh and I love how you mention that the pokedex has things like type and that stuff in it…so tell me…do they explain how they really work? Or is it like I said before…varying in between games? (as in…if they don’t say anything)

Yeah, it quickly went from that to the Dex. I'm leaning more towards Peach since the Parasol can block Embargo while she uses Rock Candy or something.

How is the Parasol going to block that? Again…the blocking power of the parasol that Peach might be having varies within the games…I don’t know how people can’t get that it is something based off a game mech. because of how the performance of the move switches so much…
Oh and while the person we are talking about is a kid…what makes you think Rock Candy will kill him? I already pointed out that you can reduce the damage from the thing for example…and this kid we are talking about…he does go face to face with gods that have gone mad…and his pokemon can protect him during that…

Hell…again…Rock Candy…just one of them by itself sucks…the bosses in that game have several thousand HP and a good % only take ½ damage from it…100 damage instead of 200 that is…Star Egg>Rock Candy by far…Of course…I’m still waiting for someone to bring up a RE item from that game…I’m like in shock it wasn’t brought up 1st

Oh and how is Peach going to use Rock Candy? The second she tries anything if that parasol is based off what you guys say it is…the second she shows her face to use that item…is the second she gets blown apart by stuff…which is the same issue with Ness btw…and how she got a BS draw there…she has to stay in hiding…the games even make fun of how weak she is by herself in M&L series…if she doesn’t have back up as seen in 2/3 of the games I’ve played…she is ****ed badly (Bowser’s not the only one who wants to kidnap her…and at least he loves her…and doesn’t want her to be food like in M&L:SSS’s kidnappers of the week did)

Don’t get me wrong…if she has team support…she is pretty powerful because of what her star power allows her to do (again...it's because she is a star child)…but alone…

 

[Samochan]

By the time it takes him command it to use fly and get on, the Fire bomb would have already activated.

Embargo isn't eternal, it'll run out eventually, PKMN TRN can't give him a pokemon from so far away and when he uses he stops right after anyway.

Whenever you actually even see PT shouting commands at pokemon? >_> Not on the handheld games surely. The most trainers ever do even on Battle revolution is point finger lol. Commanding pokes takes around the same time as taking out an item from a bag on rpg on both games. It's supposed to exists there, but it doesn't. So it's either we be fair, or then we be realistic, which means peach actually has to take the item from someplace and then use it (not just offer it to the sky's.) So basically, if you opt to have no item selection from RPG, then you also don't have move selection (aka the commanding part) in pokemon which is also rpg.

Last time I checked, PT was also allowed to start the battles atop pokemon or in position, like vs samus he could've been already wrapped up in steelix (or onix in this case to resist both firebomb and rock candy star shower). I also find it doubtful such starshower would immediately kill PT on immediate contact when it continues for some time to actually make damage. Even peach, a frail princess albeit magical, has 175 hp or more. I don't think PT has just one HP if his health points could be measured. Prolonged or even tiny duration of exposure would no doubt kill him, but I don't see how PT wrapped up in onix (or some large enough pokemon to just cover him and use protect, for that matter) could get hurt by rock candy in any way. In any case, with or without the usage of protect (protect is a priority move though), any big pokemon with the ability to tank and cover PT could easily protect him from firebomb and rock candy. And within from this protection, he could still shout or give orders via telepathy (mewtwo), I don't see how it could totally block sound.

2 pokemons canonically can be commanded at the same time and do their moves on the same turn as well, so it won't take any more time to command 2 pokemon verses 1 pokemon here. PT could easily have one pokemon to protect him and another, further away, using follow me move, which forces peach's attacks to attack that pokemon instead of trainer, leaving the trainer out of range of that move. While both rock candy and firebomb have been shown to have range, it's no more range than what a house has. Voice carriers further than normal house lenght does outdoors if we were to go into that.

I also don't see why, when everyone else has a plan, for PT to not have planned first move with his pokemon beforehand. Peach obv has a formulated plan here, using rock candy or firebomb in 1< second. Especially when his pokemon are out in the field from the very beginning in the first place.

Embargo is not eternal yes, but it can be used again and again till PP's run out. It takes 5 turns for embargo effects to run out though when it connects, which is a long time on RPG universe and would mean peach is defenceless if embargo ever gets to her. But using embargo against her parasol gives PT enough time to release more pokemon, like for example machamp that'll either KO peach with that humongous attack out of her parasol or leave her with very little hp, in which case forretress for example could just explode on her/mewtwo could use aura sphere to finish her off.

Powerbomb, rock candy IS an item. If Peach were to just rock candy spam, she'd be vulnerable to embargo from mewtwo (coincidentally pokes can also do moves independently), then game over for peach. Mewtwo, for full rock candy effect, can take 3 hits before going down, not even accounting recover or damage reductions, plenty of time to embargo. =) And if for some reason getting attacked is supposed to stun, extremespeed from poke with stab + choice band and then another pokemon with same set for example would ko her before she even managed to use rock candies or them getting any effect, or at the very least stunning her form using it.

 

[LUVTOY77-ROGUE WIREFRAME]

I'm not reading that huge wall of posts because I'm very short on time (not makin ga good 1stimpression am I?)...

Anyway, as the post above pointed out, Red starts battles on top of his pokemon. For example, while surfing and you encounter a trainer...Red is on his pokemon.

Also,on what basis do you claim Mewtwo can allow Red to communicate telepathically? I don't recall this in the games (I haven't played mystery dungeon so if it's from that... okay).

Outta' time, cya!

 

[justaway12]

Whenever you actually even see PT shouting commands at pokemon? >_> Not on the handheld games surely. The most trainers ever do even on Battle revolution is point finger lol. Commanding pokes takes around the same time as taking out an item from a bag on rpg on both games. It's supposed to exists there, but it doesn't. So it's either we be fair, or then we be realistic, which means peach actually has to take the item from someplace and then use it (not just offer it to the sky's.) So basically, if you opt to have no item selection from RPG, then you also don't have move selection (aka the commanding part) in pokemon which is also rpg.

"What will the pokemon do?"

"Attack" "Bag" "Item" "Run"

"Bellossom use ______"

It's quite obvious you play as the PKMN TRN and he is mute, that's the reason there are speech bubbles in most.
The selection basically tells you what you (the trainer) want to command your pokemon to do.

Last time I checked, PT was also allowed to start the battles atop pokemon or in position, like vs samus he could've been already wrapped up in steelix

I'm sure that because it's true to it's game, if he was wrapped up in steelix, not only could he not move, he also can't give orders, nevver mind bbeing able to comunicate by his mind, his eyes will be covered to so he can't.

(or onix in this case to resist both firebomb and rock candy star shower). I also find it doubtful such starshower would immediately kill PT on immediate contact when it continues for some time to actually make damage. Even peach, a frail princess albeit magical, has 175 hp or more. I don't think PT has just one HP if his health points could be measured. Prolonged or even tiny duration of exposure would no doubt kill him, but I don't see how PT wrapped up in onix (or some large enough pokemon to just cover him and use protect, for that matter) could get hurt by rock candy in any way. In any case, with or without the usage of protect (protect is a priority move though), any big pokemon with the ability to tank and cover PT could easily protect him from firebomb and rock candy. And within from this protection, he could still shout or give orders via telepathy (mewtwo), I don't see how it could totally block sound.

Peach may be a frail princess, but hey, she took down bigger foes, she was stronger than Bowser with her frying pan.
Let's not forget she has higher HP than her enemies as well, which are anything but human.

2 pokemons canonically can be commanded at the same time and do their moves on the same turn as well, so it won't take any more time to command 2 pokemon verses 1 pokemon here. PT could easily have one pokemon to protect him and another, further away, using follow me move, which forces peach's attacks to attack that pokemon instead of trainer, leaving the trainer out of range of that move. While both rock candy and firebomb have been shown to have range, it's no more range than what a house has. Voice carriers further than normal house lenght does outdoors if we were to go into that.

You know, Peach could just use Mute. Again, with a pokemon in the way, he can't see the match.

I also don't see why, when everyone else has a plan, for PT to not have planned first move with his pokemon beforehand. Peach obv has a formulated plan here, using rock candy or firebomb in 1< second. Especially when his pokemon are out in the field from the very beginning in the first place.

How about that she uses it when the battle starts? That's why Luigi couldn't use the music box on Samus.

Embargo is not eternal yes, but it can be used again and again till PP's run out. It takes 5 turns for embargo effects to run out though when it connects, which is a long time on RPG universe and would mean peach is defenceless if embargo ever gets to her. But using embargo against her parasol gives PT enough time to release more pokemon, like for example machamp that'll either KO peach with that humongous attack out of her parasol or leave her with very little hp, in which case forretress for example could just explode on her/mewtwo could use aura sphere to finish her off.

This is all assuming she will get hit by rock candy, you did nothing to counter my argument, unless it was that it will leave PKMN TRN more time to realease pokemon, in which case, Peachs attack with a frying pan is higher than Bowsers, and she can heal.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Rock Candy isn't faster than on how fast the trainer can send out his Pokes. <_<; Thought I'd say that much.

Pokemon Trainer get's dragged down too many times by crap like that. Things that are supposed to kill him before he can send out stuff... It's a huge bias against him.

PT would beat Peach by first using Embargo, then Fissure. Fissure would surely ignore all defences Peach has because of the way the move works.

 

[justaway12]

It's not bais against him =/
it bais for Peach

Anyway, it isn't enough time for him to command his pokemon to do something before she takes it out, it takes like 1 second to take it out.

 

[REL38]

@Clinton

Didn't Dryn already give a Japanese screenshot or w/e where it also said she's invincible?

In regards to Rock Candy, it's not very useful against the Pokemon.
But it'll definitely kill PT.
Many of the protection type moves Pokemon have have start-up lag that take longer than Rock Candy.

@Samo
Rock Candy still hits airbourne foes.
Spacing in RPG's are meh
How is it fair for PT to already start out the match wrapped by Steelix? Riding on it, sure. But already wrapped is pushing it :/

Concerning Embargo, it's still a status effect. Ailment or not.
Depending on what that ring of Peach's specifically does and/or what the description says can better determine if it'll have effect or not.

@Diddy
How are the restrictions PT has (many characters have disadvantages here) considered bias?
Fissure only hits 30% of the time.
If it ever does work, Peach can use the Joy Emotion from Super Princess Peach to float. It has no effect on anything airbourne cuz it misses. It's telegraphed enough for Peach to float away (shifting ground and whatnot).

 

[PowerBomb]

Also...another question...how come Serris isn't invincible while using the speed booster? Wasn't that one of you guys original arguments about it as well besides the Super Metroid book? (which is no longer a working argument either considering the Wii re-release of the game has a better translation)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xroqahxuGI
Look at 24:43 and you can see Samus popping him in the head up close with a charge shot while it is clearly under speed booster effect...in fact...that entire fight has Samus blowing him in the head while it is moving like that (because this run is tool assisted)
See...Serris can be hurt while using the speed booster...another argument you guys have has been busted...
Oh and 24:51 has Samus killing it with a 2nd up close charge shot

Spoiler

Wouldn't tool-assisted generally be in the same category as hacks? I mean, it's not possible, normally at some times, right?

Unless, of course, you can that sort of thing he was doing with your fingers, which I doubt. Seriously, those tricks were o_o

EDIT: Yeah, he's exploiting game glitches at times using extremely slowed up game speeds. Description even says so...

Powerbomb, rock candy IS an item. If Peach were to just rock candy spam, she'd be vulnerable to embargo from mewtwo (coincidentally pokes can also do moves independently), then game over for peach. Mewtwo, for full rock candy effect, can take 3 hits before going down, not even accounting recover or damage reductions, plenty of time to embargo. =) And if for some reason getting attacked is supposed to stun, extremespeed from poke with stab + choice band and then another pokemon with same set for example would ko her before she even managed to use rock candies or them getting any effect, or at the very least stunning her form using it.

Remember, if Machamp is going to spam Dynamic Punch (least accurate against protection via No Guard and strongest/most useful STAB move in this scenario) it only has...8 PP max? And we really don't know if it will KO Peach (as Peach has defensive power, does she not?). Unless equipped items are automatically effect null'd from Embargo.

 

[Crystanium]

Man your example of how they do this is off…it’s hardly a lack of space for most of the power ups…
http://i645.photobucket.com/albums/uu175/ClintonV/0c85610a.jpg
And I hardly see shortening the descriptions as a bad thing…when talking about something…which one is better when they say the same things almost…the 500 word description of the item…or the 20 word description of it?

I cannot see that image. I am not using my computer. However, I did check the Reserve Tank, and it has more words written down. The question is why they didn't have the Speed Booster on the next page to fill in the rest? "The Speed Booster makes you run at a super high speed and makes you invincible." I don't know if that would fit, considering it was at the bottom of that page on the Wii.

The section for the Speed booster had more than enough room for them to fit in the term invincibility if they wanted to in case you don’t get that from looking at that picture…so why didn’t they?

They wanted to be succinct? They simply wanted to give a brief explanation of what the function is for the items? It doesn't matter either way. The Super Metroid Instruction Booklet is the original, and that the Wii doesn't say anything else doesn't say, "Oh, and Samus is not invincible." Please get it through your head that a lack of words is not the same as a contradiction. Nintendo didn't rework Super Metroid. You should just drop this issue of yours, _clinton, because no one cares. You're still complaining about Lucas losing to Samus. Oh ****ing well. Go make your own thread somewhere else if you have a problem. You know your words are in vain. You know that you're not convincing anyone. You should have picked this up by now. I mean, really, you have tried to convince people about Samus not being invincible for the past fifty or so pages. Give it up. It's not changing.

So…you need the book to tell that the screw attack is a weapon…when it flat out says that you can “blast your foes out of the air”

Blast 1. n. a sudden and violent gust of wind.

Maybe. I would hope the Screw Attack isn't meant to produce sudden and violent gusts of wind. Then again, it was originally in the book and not on the Wii.

Yeah…and one of them actually informs you that you jump higher…where as the other one just says that you can reach higher spaces with it…which one is better if you didn’t know the name before hand?

I think I’ll go with the Wii one thank you…jumping higher is far more descriptive than “reach higher spaces”

That's a matter of preference, I suppose. But I'd rather have a bit more information than something so tautological. "Hi-Jump Boots: These books make you jump higher." I could have inferred that by the name. No new information has been provided. Why offer any information about an item that has a self-explanatory name? It's like asking, "What's a tweaker?" and then being given the answer, "One that tweaks." Real descriptive.

This is an example of Super Metroid’s SNES choppy translation if anything…

Have fun proving that the translation is incorrect.

at least the wii version flat out says that you can use spin jumps continuously right away…

Ironically, the source the Wii got the information from was that "choppy translation."

the SNES one 1st says that Samus can jump continuously in the air…making it 1st sound like you have unlimited jumps in total…THEN they tell the player you can only do it at the peak of a somersault jump…

If you're jumping at the peak of a somersault, then you have unlimited jumps.

Oh and I don’t see how you couldn’t put 2 and 2 together and figure out that with them using a term like…continuous spin jumps…she should be able to fly through areas…

Yeah…because all Nintendo did for the Wii version of Super Metroid was give its instruction booklet a better translation…because translating things across different culture gaps btw…in case you don’t know…is ****ing hard to do…
You can’t tell me that they couldn’t fit invincible in there if they wanted to…the picture I gave clearly shows there is room left to type quite a bit more…

*yawn* Have fun translating the Japanese for me. The burden of proof is on you if you honestly think that the Super Metroid Instruction Booklet has any mistranslations.

I’m sorry if I bug you…but what irks me to death is that it seems like if I’m the only one here who understands how things can end up with a bad translation, what the true difference between a game mech. and actual canon is, and how games can be censored very badly to the point where the original meaning behind the stuff can be loss from what I see…

Read above.

I wasn't aware there has to be blood flying everywhere for it to be considered "mature"

Oh, look. Steak.

BTW…I’m pretty sure something like this:
http://i645.photobucket.com/albums/uu175/ClintonV/fef41189.jpg
Would still be very ****ing creepy if it didn’t have the blood/stitch marks…but that is just me…

I cannot see the picture. I am not using my computer.

 

[_clinton]

Didn't Dryn already give a Japanese screenshot or w/e where it also said she's invincible?

A. I was the one who actually posted that picture the 1st time...
B. Dryn never translated the full thing...he translated one word and it was even on a guess over what it was
C. None of this matters anymore because the issue of "blind translations" isn't a factor in today's time as much as it was during the NES/SNES games...we have a much better translation now despite some flaws that it does still have...and considering how the manual for the Wii version of the game has a much better translation than the SNES book

In case you didn't get one of my other points from how I was making fun of what the SNES book says compared to the Wii manual...and sense the Wii manual says nothing about invincibility...I wonder what that means?

In regards to Rock Candy, it's not very useful against the Pokemon.
But it'll definitely kill PT.

BS…it won’t even kill many of the normal foes in MRPG with one use…

Many of the protection type moves Pokemon have have start-up lag that take longer than Rock Candy.

What start-up lag do you think they take?

They come out in one round, and move before any other move…Rock Candy comes out in one round as well (and again…Star Egg>Rock Candy people…and RE’s as well beat it if we are to talk about items)

I still can’t see why you people don’t get that things like items, moves, “a round,” and so on are heavily affected by game mechs.

Why can’t you people use some of the actual examples of Peach’s powers from the many games of canon that she has…things like:
-Living within walking distance of her serial rapist…
-Going to play golf, tennis, baseball, and so on with said rapist…or holding tons of parties and allowing said rapist to attend sometimes
-Being physically weak to the point where she always needs protection otherwise this happens:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnpeXoF4jyQ&feature=related
I mean…even before 1 minute passes in that video Peach gets kidnapped…by a type of GOOMBA…WTF!?
-The amazing power to be both very thick in the head (like in that video I just showed)

Spoiler

and quite intelligent at the same time…somewhat (How Peach prevents her voice from being robbed in that game),

She is like Deedee from Dexter’s Lab ^_^
-

Spoiler

Being linked to the fate of the world in more than one game because of what her star powers are like…she seems to be more in touch with them than any other character that has them…or something like that

-

Spoiler

Being able to seal away “powerful as hell” foes under the right circumstances (M&L: Pit)…of course…while she got rid of the most powerful of the race by doing said thing…she was helpless to deal with everyone else that was left behind…like the younger sister…who was PISSED off and was going to feed her to the “lions” after that

If it ever does work, Peach can use the Joy Emotion from Super Princess Peach to float. It has no effect on anything airbourne cuz it misses. It's telegraphed enough for Peach to float away (shifting ground and whatnot).

How is she going to use the Joy Emotion? Her powers in that game were linked to the island she was on and her partner’s mana…

Plus…how is she going to avoid Sheer Cold if we want to talk about “good” (That is me being nice about the things) auto KO moves…

Wouldn't tool-assisted generally be in the same category as hacks? I mean, it's not possible, normally at some times, right?

Ah no...the only "tool assisted" part of this speed through was just slowing the game down...he didn’t use any cheat codes…

Logically…you could if you wanted to…pop Serris' head with a missile or charge shot while it is moving like that...

Just...good luck with that (that is what you would need...a lot of luck)
Which guess what…It doesn't matter if you would need luck to do it because your original argument for this discussion was that Serris couldn't be hurt while moving like that...but that video clearly shows that he can be hurt while moving like that...your argument for the speed booster being invincibility is proven wrong when it comes to saying that a foe that is using it like Samus couldn’t be hurt...Serris can be hurt…and uses the speed booster like Samus...

So…stop thinking that the speed boosters invincibility thing is real…all the “proof” you have so far shows that it is just a game mech. (because they take away Samus’ contact damage while using it)

EDIT: Yeah, he's exploiting game glitches at times using extremely slowed up game speeds. Description even says so...

The only glitch the guy is using is dealing with the morph ball "hover" trick...which is to the extreme in that video (by far not possible for humans to do like he did with it if this was for normal game play)

I mean...look at how it is done...in order to use it...you have to enter morph ball, come out of it, fire a missile, and then repeat...that is over 5 commands for the player to do in less than a millisecond for how he uses it in that video...which btw...you still have to aim right while doing this...

Still…Metroid Fusion can be beat in under 2 hours with 100%...
http://www.gamefaqs.com/portable/gbadvance/code/516709.html
The best time for that game w/o tools is done in around 1:13…the other video I showed did it in like 1:30 or so
http://speeddemosarchive.com/MetroidFusion.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzuALljHw2c&feature=PlayList&p=2703F4C7FD6D86CB&index=2

Now…that stuff is crazy…

Remember, if Machamp is going to spam Dynamic Punch (least accurate against protection via No Guard and strongest/most useful STAB move in this scenario) it only has...8 PP max? And we really don't know if it will KO Peach (as Peach has defensive power, does she not?). Unless equipped items are automatically effect null'd from Embargo.

Peach doesn’t have defensive power…she has healing and disabling magic…I have yet to see her throw up a protective barrier…
And we have said that equipped items are null’d from Embargo…that is what we did with Link for one…

I cannot see that image. I am not using my computer. However, I did check the Reserve Tank, and it has more words written down. The question is why they didn't have the Speed Booster on the next page to fill in the rest? "The Speed Booster makes you run at a super high speed and makes you invincible." I don't know if that would fit, considering it was at the bottom of that page on the Wii.

The text says for the item:

These boots allow you to run at a super-
high speed

It goes on two a second line starting at where I showed it...so…let’s put your theory to the test…and add on this:

These boots allow you to run at a super-
high speed and make you invincible.

They clearly have enough room to write it...but they chose not to…I wonder why?

The Super Metroid Instruction Booklet is the original, and that the Wii doesn't say anything else doesn't say, "Oh, and Samus is not invincible."

I guess we should just throw out Metroid: Zero Mission as well then if all you want to do is just count the "originals"

Nintendo didn't rework Super Metroid.

I know they didn't...they just re-released it...and the re-release of it has its own manual from the same place where the SNES got their manual…which is the same thing you guys have been using to say she is invincible…this manual is newer though and doesn’t say that at all…

You're still complaining about Lucas losing to Samus.

If Lucas was the only match over this...you might have a point...but considering how Samus has gotten wins on both the Mario Bros. over the so called fact that once she starts running she can't be stopped is real BS...

How can you guys still think she is invincible when the same game that says it is proven wrong with game play from bosses (not grunts)...and how can you guys still think she is invincible when the foes that use it as well...aren't invincible?

Of course...I still like how you think Samus' speed booster is my only issue here...**** I'm in disagreement about the so called "invincibility" between the Mario, Zelda, DK, Sonic, and Fire Emblem games as well...

Blast 1. n. a sudden and violent gust of wind.
Maybe. I would hope the Screw Attack isn't meant to produce sudden and violent gusts of wind. Then again, it was originally in the book and not on the Wii.

I like how you think there is only one definition for blast…considering what the screw attack is in latter games shown to be…I think the term “blast” is ok to use…

That's a matter of preference, I suppose. But I'd rather have a bit more information than something so tautological. "Hi-Jump Boots: These books make you jump higher." I could have inferred that by the name. No new information has been provided. Why offer any information about an item that has a self-explanatory name? It's like asking, "What's a tweaker?" and then being given the answer, "One that tweaks." Real descriptive.

The point I’m trying to make is that the definition for the item sounds the same as what the term implies…both of them could stand by themselves if they were to be used for the Wii…but the SNES one doesn’t work by themselves from the definition…

“These boots allow you to reach higher places”
So what does that say? How do they allow you to reach higher places? Are they just bigger boots?

Have fun proving that the translation is incorrect.

So…how come they just didn’t use the scans from the SNES booklet if they were correct? Instead they rewrote the thing…

Ironically, the source the Wii got the information from was that "choppy translation."

Ah no…they got their source from the same area that the SNES one got…right from Nintendo…so how come they aren’t the same?

*yawn* Have fun translating the Japanese for me. The burden of proof is on you if you honestly think that the Super Metroid Instruction Booklet has any mistranslations.

I don’t have to translate it at all…the SNES instruction booklet is getting the info from the same place that the Wii version is getting their info from…right from Nintendo…an official source…why are they so different in wording if they are suppose to be the same thing from an official source?