Smash Bros. Canon Tournament! (Mario Vs. ????) - 06/14/10

[Diddy Kong]

I dunno, I went to sleep and it was somehow decided cm/thunder and hail/blizzard is null and brick break for some reason is ineffective against force fields/barriers cause of LOL protect being as the only evidence (which is not, I've gone through that). >_> If by game mechanics protect is an evasion and not a barrier that affects environment, then it's no wonder brick break won't break it then. Within the game, protect is treated as an evasion, many game mechanics support this. Graphics don't mean too much when someone having no hands is shown to punch, or when cubone/marowak still doing their bonemerangs when you've stolen their items/disabled their use lol.

Thunder would work against the Arwing, and Blizzard I guess for the Landmaster. Hail/Blizzard would then be best maybe, cause it might slow down the Landmaster's movement. If the Landmaster's destroyed however, the hail would likely kill Fox before he can get his barriers on.

And how long can Fox stay protected anyway?

 

[Samochan]

I am not having Speedy Shuckle is Speedy the new meme, thank you very much.

And unless Protect is a barrier, thats EXACTLY what happens.

Then I'm not having a super sonic speed sonic cause the information provided by game contradicts game graphics, etc. >_>

It would explictly go against what the game tells us about the move and what the mechanics behind protect are. If we ignore that, we're ignoring the whole mechanics that makes pokemon and game text. Thus everything any game just tells us but doesn't show perfectly graphically is faulty and shouldn't be used.

See a problem here? >_>

Besides there are many problems with pokemon game mechanics, if you consider the graphical point, like magneton not having the ability levitate when that's clearly it's only method of movement and shown when you battle, it doesn't touch ground on no instance. The argument of using some graphical evidence over game mechanics is not a very grounded one. There's plenty of proof showing protect as an evasion rather than one graphical one as barrier, like many details in the pokemon game mechanics.

Besides who cares if protect is a barrier or evasion or what, it's how it works in the end that matters. Shuckle can still avoid stuff. We should rather be asking how Rattata can be using thunderbolt if you wanna go there. It's illogical, but it's there. However as evidence towards brick break not breaking barriers, not a good one and very faulty as such.

We've come across zounds of illogical stuff in this thread, but I rather not always have just pokemon to be picked at. That would be hypocritical if one's like "peach umbrella while not magical or anything and only supported by sticking to the ground, can take a robot jumping at her and still somehow does not break when she doesn't touch ground" is okay and fine, but then something like dialga being the master of time, for example, is not, when provided with tons of game text and scenes what happens in the game itself. (that was once an argument yes)

I don't wanna see double-standarding when it suits your arguments pls. <_<

/rant

Now gonna play sum game, brb.

 

[PowerBomb]

Oh it doesn't? Well, the Landmaster isn't all that fast, Mewtwo would be able to hit it with ease. Fox is moving around, but who says Mewtwo isn't? Besides, Mewtwo's been shown to be pretty fast.

Why has Mewtwo exactly lost this? He's got all of Fox's options countered, if anything it should be a draw...

Thought you meant Arwing for Brick Break. Brick Break doesn't break through defenses in that way. Otherwise it would ignore defense modifiers.

I dunno, I went to sleep and it was somehow decided cm/thunder and hail/blizzard is null and brick break for some reason is ineffective against force fields/barriers cause of LOL protect being as the only evidence (which is not, I've gone through that). >_> If by game mechanics protect is an evasion and not a barrier that affects environment, then it's no wonder brick break won't break it then. Within the game, protect is treated as an evasion, many game mechanics support this. Graphics don't mean too much when someone having no hands is shown to punch, or when cubone/marowak still doing their bonemerangs when you've stolen their items/disabled their use lol.

Protect is also shown, in-game, as a barrier. Even shown like that in the 3-D games. It's ineffective against Hail effects because OH LOOK, Protect is a barrier in the FRONT of your Pokemon. Not completely around.

@missingno: lulz @ Shuckle

EDIT: Wouldn't 'evaded the attack' be synonymous to 'took no damage' in this case? Sheesh, it's a god dang BARRIER. If the Pokemon graphics aren't being taken as credible, then WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO for their attacks?

EDIT2: lol at hail killing Fox

 

[missingnomaster]

@Samochan: You just said I'm saying we can't use Protect. Way to go.

I'm saying what happens is more important then what is said to happen, (especially when what is said to happen doesn't even contradict what happens in the first place.) Kind of like how video evidence is better than a verbal testimony?

In order to support Protect being a dodge, you have to either support that
1. All pokemon move at the same speeds all the time.
Or
2. Even pokemon shown to be slow like Shuckle can somehow move at super human speeds to dodge Extremespeed from Speed Form Deoxys (with a Choice Scarf)

Otherwise Protect simply doesn't work.

Barrier or shield is important, because as a barrier, Red can hide behind it, a tactic that has proved useful in the past.

 

[Kewkky]

How did Samus end up in a draw? If we agree the Speed Booster and Hyper Mode make Samus invincible, and an invincible Bowser isn't affected by stopwatches, how do people keep coming up with the conclusion that stopwatches will affect Samus? Samus' Plasma beams can penetrate Mario's defenses and hit him, plus she has infinite ammo. She just needs to maintain her invincibility while shooting Mario wherever he runs or jumps (she can aim at any angle practically), and once she hits him, due to the penetration and going through Mario's body effect, he would die (5 hits for his 5hp I guess) and use a life shroom, which according to the new rules means he dies. How can Mario overcome her invincibility?

Quoting and bumping.

And, are Peach and Pokemon Trainer doing turn-based battles since both characters are turn-based in a sense? Or are they both doing real-time battles?

 

[Samochan]

@Samochan: You just said I'm saying we can't use Protect. Way to go.

I'm saying what happens is more important then what is said to happen, (especially when what is said to happen doesn't even contradict what happens in the first place.) Kind of like how video evidence is better than a verbal testimony?

In order to support Protect being a dodge, you have to either support that
1. All pokemon move at the same speeds all the time.
Or
2. Even pokemon shown to be slow like Shuckle can somehow move at super human speeds to dodge Extremespeed from Speed Form Deoxys (with a Choice Scarf)

Otherwise Protect simply doesn't work.

Barrier or shield is important, because as a barrier, Red can hide behind it, a tactic that has proved useful in the past.

I didn't say we can't use protect, but I said that protect graphics as an evidence showing bb somehow can't break barriers is moot.

What does indeed happen is that pokemon somehow escapes damage by evasion, as shown when hail+blizzard can still catch this pokemon on it's evasion cause it's 100% accurate, no miss move.

Evasion in pokemon doesn't correlate with speed in any way either. Even evasion boosting item has nothing to do with boosting speed, nor do any of the attack that raise/lower accuracy or raise/lower evasion.

As a priority move and working the same way as detect does, prediction or something is used to evade things. Protect > extremespeed in priority bracket too. Priority would be hard or impossible to explain, but it's there too.

Also it would be very funny if we were to ignore game mechs and then tried to explain why Regigigas doesn't learn protect at all, especially if it were a barrier.

Protect hasn't ever been shown to protect anyone else besides the user, but it doesn't mean Red can't ride that pokemon using protect in whatever means, therefore getting the effects of protect in either that the bulky body of the pokemon protects him while the poke protects itself or the pokemon evades stuff.

I don't care what or how protect does the escaping damage and many effects thingy but it does. I'm care though if some graphic is somehow more legit evidence over protect's game mechs, showing BB can't break barriers when that's one of the specialities of brick break, programmed within the game, just as protect is programmed as evasion.

Protect is also shown, in-game, as a barrier. Even shown like that in the 3-D games. It's ineffective against Hail effects because OH LOOK, Protect is a barrier in the FRONT of your Pokemon. Not completely around.

And still it blocks shock wave/EQ/stuff with a meager barrier in front while it can't block hail lol.

But in comparison, I'd rather try evading earthquake when it rocks over some area in the ground, than every tiny bit of snow in a snowstorm.

EDIT: Wouldn't 'evaded the attack' be synonymous to 'took no damage' in this case? Sheesh, it's a god dang BARRIER. If the Pokemon graphics aren't being taken as credible, then WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO for their attacks?

EDIT2: lol at hail killing Fox

The point is, protect is not feasible evidence over bb not breaking barriers when in game mechanics BB breaks barriers like screens and protect is not treated as a barrier in pokemon game mechanics.

Force field is certainly a barrier brick break can break. Force field doesn't evade damage for you, just diminishes it like screens do.

 

[_clinton]

Brick Break can't reach Fox

How so? Mewtwo can ****ing fly because of his TK powers…the worse that Fox has is his sniper rifle for damage…which works the same way Samus’ sniper does…because for some reason…only a sniper rifle to the head will kill…even though a handgun won’t for some reason…btw:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DeathRay
Just saying…that pretty much is what the sniper rifle is in FPS games…

What, use random moves? I said they needed to be commanded again because they aren't wild Pokemon until PT releases them. I doubt he'd do that in a battle.

Ah no...they are conscious beings...some of them on the level of human IQ...what they are doing would be hardly random if done in real life...that is just the game's fault (like how they only can know 4 things...that is clearly done to prevent issues with balance)

I mean…they won’t even listen to their trainer if they don’t want to…the fact that they listen in the 1st place is just a sign of respect…as well as a game mech (your friend’s level 70 Mewtwo isn’t going to be an auto win button for this game you know)

I'm going by what actually happens. How about you LOOK at what Protect is? Notice how the only time it is shown as a dodge is once, in the anime? I'm pretty sure barriers of light is a little different than dodging, it seems pretty unmistakable to me.

Again…based off what the games are…it’s a lot easier to show that “barrier” than it is to make each pokemon have their own “special guard” position…

And then there's reading comprehension fail. Regigigas cannot learn Protect.

How was it a reading comprehension fail? It’s more of an example of you failing at writing…This is what you wrote:

And yet even a simple RAT can put up a near perfect barrier with Protect. In fact, out of all the pokemon that can learn TMs, Regigigas is the only one who can't.

This is what you should have written if you meant only the TM protect:
“In fact, out of all the pokemon that can learn the TM Protect, Regigigas is one of 5 that can’t learn it.”

(obviously a balancing issue, so not even a big point in the first place)

This thing I’m responding to is funny…because you disagreed with me in the 1st place about something like a rat doing stuff that the pokedex doesn’t give any hint to doing…in the last post for example:

So I'm definitely not going with realism on the moveset issue.

I like how you don’t get what you are saying with this…because you just admitted that one pokemon not learning protect is clearly a game mech. for balance (which is funny...because the thing is hardly balanced for the end result...it sucks because of that special sadly)

 

[Kewkky]

So _clinton, are you saying we should give Regigigas "protect" even if in the game he doesn't learn it?

 

[Samochan]

Clinton, BB would work against arwing if arwing just wasn't flying at very high speeds, making it extra hard for mewtwo to try and connect it. >_> Other methods are more reliable with his limited moveslots.

Regigigas doesn't learn protect cause of it's ability slow start. Purely game mechanic, the game makers didn't wish regigigas to spam protect to gain any turns.

 

[missingnomaster]

1I didn't say we can't use protect, but I said that protect graphics as an evidence showing bb somehow can't break barriers is moot.

2What does indeed happen is that pokemon somehow escapes damage by evasion, as shown when hail+blizzard can still catch this pokemon on it's evasion cause it's 100% accurate, no miss move.

3Evasion in pokemon doesn't correlate with speed in any way either. Even evasion boosting item has nothing to do with boosting speed, nor do any of the attack that raise/lower accuracy or raise/lower evasion.

4As a priority move and working the same way as detect does, prediction or something is used to evade things. Protect > extremespeed in priority bracket too. Priority would be hard or impossible to explain, but it's there too.

5Also it would be very funny if we were to ignore game mechs and then tried to explain why Regigigas doesn't learn protect at all, especially if it were a barrier.

6Protect hasn't ever been shown to protect anyone else besides the user, but it doesn't mean Red can't ride that pokemon using protect in whatever means, therefore getting the effects of protect in either that the bulky body of the pokemon protects him while the poke protects itself or the pokemon evades stuff.

7I don't care what or how protect does the escaping damage and many effects thingy but it does. I'm care though if some graphic is somehow more legit evidence over protect's game mechs, showing BB can't break barriers when that's one of the specialities of brick break, programmed within the game, just as protect is programmed as evasion.

1.Fine
2.Really. Hail is really that overpowered? Or perhaps Hail is so overpowered that when Blizzard is used during Hail, it has a chance of going around the shield that only Protects the front of the pokemon.
3.And yet a faster pokemon should be able to dodge more easily. But it doesn't. Seems like one of those useless mechanics to me. A slow pokemon being able to dodge a fast pokemon is a lot more problematic than the slow pokemon simply blocking.
4.Priority doesn't really work at all outside of turn based cases. It's just a way of improving gameplay and showing that some moves are quick. Also it's kind of funny to dodge an attack before it happens.
5. That's obviously a balancing issue. You could prevent half the damage done to Regigigas during Slow Start if it learned Protect.
6.Getting on a pokemon and taking off takes so much longer. Usually long enough that it would cause Red to lose. Plus, what evidence is there that the pokemon could still dodge with perfect while carrying Red?
7.Brick Break also fails to remove the defense bonus given by Barrier (which is a barrier, btw)

I have a question for you. If Protect is a dodge, why is Game Freak so intent on portraying it as a barrier?

 

[_clinton]

So _clinton, are you saying we should give Regigigas "protect" even if in the game he doesn't learn it?

Actually the person I was replying to pretty much said that…not me…I for one don’t give a **** about the pokemon move pool in case you don’t get that already…mostly because there are 5 types of the same thing for it ^_^ and because a good % of them learn things that don’t make sense compared to what their info says in the Pokedex…

Clinton, BB would work against arwing if arwing just wasn't flying at very high speeds, making it extra hard for mewtwo to try and connect it. >_> Other methods are more reliable with his limited moveslots.

Limited moveslots? Don’t tell me you also think that pokemon can only learn 4 things as well…and how that isn’t just a balance attempt (that fails I might add)

Regigigas doesn't learn protect cause of it's ability slow start. Purely game mechanic, the game makers didn't wish regigigas to spam protect to gain any turns.

I think you people need to get some back story about what the argument was about in the 1st place before you jump into it…

-I’m saying that certain moves that certain pokemon learn don’t make sense and are clearly put in for balance
-The person I was arguing with (missingnomaster) didn’t believe me…and that he would rather go with what the game says for their move set for proof…
-but then in his next post he says that the only reason a certain pokemon doesn’t learn a certain move is for balance…
-Do you get how he just blew his own argument out of the water?

I have a question for you. If Protect is a dodge, why is Game Freak so intent on portraying it as a barrier?

I personally still think it is just an evade of some type…which could be a dodge or a block…and again…the reason for Game Freak portraying it as a barrier is because it is a lot easier to do that for the games…then it would be to make around 500 different animations of pokemon dodging/blocking things

 

[missingnomaster]

I think you people need to get some back story about what the argument was about in the 1st place before you jump into it…

-I’m saying that certain moves that certain pokemon learn don’t make sense and are clearly put in for balance
-The person I was arguing with (missingnomaster) didn’t believe me…and that he would rather go with what the game says for their move set for proof…
-but then in his next post he says that the only reason a certain pokemon doesn’t learn a certain move is for balance…
-Do you get how he just blew his own argument out of the water?



I personally still think it is just an evade of some type…which could be a dodge or a block…and again…the reason for Game Freak portraying it as a barrier is because it is a lot easier to do that for the games…then it would be to make around 500 different animations of pokemon dodging/blocking things

Protect is kind of different. When the only thing that can't learn it is one of the most powerful pokemon, something is clearly wrong.

What makes you think they would have to do 493 pokemon specific animations? Surely you are familiar with how they've used sprite warping? I believe Psychic warped the opponent's sprite in 3rd gen (and I know Extrasensory did). A simple sprite warp would be enough to show that the pokemon was readying itself to dodge. Instead, we get a different style of barrier with every new pokemon game that comes out.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Well... MAYBE Pokémon should be allowed to get every move they can originally learn by themselves, plus 4 of their prefered moves so to call. Could be either Egg, TM, or Move Tutor Moves I'm thinking. But maybe that'd be too much...

 

[missingnomaster]

That's a kind of oddly specific limit to impose.

 

[Kewkky]

Just wanted to make sure. Regigigas shouldn't get Protect if in the game he can;t learn it, balancing issue or not. He doesn't learn it, so he shouldn't use it in this thread.

in case you don’t get that already

I find this insulting. Stop talking down to people. Don't you think that, apart from your inability to distinguish opinions from facts when trying to persuade others, people don't listen to you well enough for some other reason?

Spoiler

...god...i like how you...insert some other condescending remark...

 

[PowerBomb]

_clinton, are you trying to change the entire way the Pokemon series acts?

 

[Mike B]

00/100 peach


10bowserkidnaps

 

[missingnomaster]

So, the -entire- argument for Red having a chance against Peach is that it would take significant time for Peach to actually find and take an item out?

More specifically, Red can use Embargo before Peach can get out and activate a Rock Candy (once the starry graphics appear, its too late) Or that Red can get on a pokemon, take off, and get out of range before Peach can get out and use a Rock Candy.

I try to support Red when I can, but I'm not buying that strategy. It shouldn't take long at all for Peach (or any character with hammer space) to pull out the item of their choice.

 

[BSP]

Does embargo stop a pokemon from using a held item too?

And M2's brick break won't destroy a landmaster in one hit. And like I said, if M2 gets close enough to do it, couldn't Fox just run him over? Probably wouldn't kill him, but it'd do some major damage.

 

[missingnomaster]

Embargo stops the usage of hold items. but if Rock Candy's attack had already started, it's not doing anything.

 

[Sasha]

Quoting and bumping.

And, are Peach and Pokemon Trainer doing turn-based battles since both characters are turn-based in a sense? Or are they both doing real-time battles?

I agree with Kewkky. Plus, Samus already beat Luigi. What does Mario have that Luigi doesn't?

 

[PowerBomb]

Wait, why would BB work on Landmaster/Arwing? By removing the force field? It removes (in Samochan's definition, and maybe Diddy's) barriers. You can say that the force field is a barrier, but so far, all we've seen it do is remove barriers of light that look like window panes.

 

[missingnomaster]

Because the description is godly and should be taken over everything else, including the animations... *sigh*

 

[PowerBomb]

Because the description is godly and should be taken over everything else, including the animations... *sigh*

Sounds like the Pokedex...

 

[Ganonsburg]

I don't know why it has to be animation over Pokedex or animation over move description. Maybe the Pokedex is below the others, but the others seem like they are equally important. Although because of the limited graphics in Pokemon, I'm tempted to say that move description beats animation.

 

[_clinton]

Protect is kind of different. When the only thing that can't learn it is one of the most powerful pokemon, something is clearly wrong.

So now your changing your mind about it learning protect I see...

_clinton, are you trying to change the entire way the Pokemon series acts?

No…I’m just trying to get you guys to understand that there is a difference between how they act in game, compared to out game…

When something like this can happen in the game under it's rules:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ye7b3bOQ6lY

You can’t tell me how that would work out in “real life” no matter what…

 

[PowerBomb]

I don't know why it has to be animation over Pokedex or animation over move description. Maybe the Pokedex is below the others, but the others seem like they are equally important. Although because of the limited graphics in Pokemon, I'm tempted to say that move description beats animation.

3-D games have more elaborate move animations.

 

[missingnomaster]

So now your changing your mind about it learning protect I see...


No…I’m just trying to get you guys to understand that there is a difference between how they act in game, compared to out game…

When something like this can happen in the game under it's rules:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ye7b3bOQ6lY

You can’t tell me how that would work out in “real life” no matter what…

I don't recall ever placing a specific stance on Protect, except that it's a shield. Anything else is just assumption.

Except that what you're trying to do requires using uncanon information. The game may be flawed, but that doesn't give us the right to make things up as we see fit...

3-D games have more elaborate move animations.

I try to use PBR's animations with pokemon unless a different animation seems superior (Sheer Cold, for example)

 

[BSP]

I agree with Kewkky. Plus, Samus already beat Luigi. What does Mario have that Luigi doesn't?

IDK how mario tied too. We're going to go over everything again, so the time will come.

 

[_clinton]

Except that what you're trying to do requires using uncanon information.

How is the pokedex not canon info? You guys are the ones making things up more...saying Rattata a common field rodent can lite itself on fire for a move just because of it's move pool...but the pokedex doesn't hint that it can do that at all...the pokedex btw is a by far better method of info for the pokemon than their move pool is...

The game may be flawed, but that doesn't give us the right to make things up as we see fit...

The game's not flawed...it's just trying to make things balanced and fair for the competitive part of it...which shouldn't be in affect here...

And we have been making things up as we see fit for this entire thread...with all sorts of characters besides this...Samus' suit and how she can lose it for a good chunk of things...for example...that is only a story mech. (because it is...but we have to accept that you know)

 

[PowerBomb]

Some plot mechanics are silly, though. Like how Samus will usually lose her equipment due to an explosion/ambush in the Prime series and withstand greater assaults and not lose anything later in the game.

Look at Link: He gets knocked out by a club to the head, yet survives everything else without fainting.

How is the pokedex not canon info? You guys are the ones making things up more...saying Rattata a common field rodent can lite itself on fire for a move just because of it's move pool...but the pokedex doesn't hint that it can do that at all...the pokedex btw is a by far better method of info for the pokemon than their move pool is...

Because the Pokedex doesn't prove itself half the time and creates silly ideas about Pokemon. It's basically: "I say this, therefore it's true." There's really no evidence to suggest that certain Pokemon can do certain things. Sometimes the Dex actually is proved in the gameplay, but a lot of the entries are just hearsay. Or would you rather us saying random stuff about the characters and just say "because I said it, it's true"?

What about this: Tyranitar has armor that can't be harmed by anything, and Charizard has fire breath that can melt everything. What happens when Charizard uses Flamethrower on Tyranitar? Or Dusclops, who can absorb whatever the **** it wants? Some entries are A-OK, like Kyogre, where its ability and the way the gameplay + story go actually prove some of the Dex entries. Same with Groudon, and Rayquaza, even.

 

[_clinton]

Some plot mechanics are silly, though.

Yeah I know…that is what I’ve been saying with regards to things like you guys limiting Ness/Lucas sense I got into this topic…

Because the Pokedex doesn't prove itself half the time and creates silly ideas about Pokemon. It's basically: "I say this, therefore it's true." There's really no evidence to suggest that certain Pokemon can do certain things. Sometimes the Dex actually is proved in the gameplay, but a lot of the entries are just hearsay. Or would you rather us saying random stuff about the characters and just say "because I said it, it's true"?

What about this: Tyranitar has armor that can't be harmed by anything, and Charizard has fire breath that can melt everything. What happens when Charizard uses Flamethrower on Tyranitar? Or Dusclops, who can absorb whatever the **** it wants? Some entries are A-OK, like Kyogre, where its ability and the way the gameplay + story go actually prove some of the Dex entries. Same with Groudon, and Rayquaza, even.

So…all that stuff you have an issue with…but you are ok with a rodent like Rattata being able to light itself on fire/generate the same electrical moves as Pikachu?

Oh and I like how you don’t get that many of the final form pokemon in the dex are based off mythological creatures as well…but “in real form for said game”…

Oh and the entries vary between the pokemon…to the point where…maybe they just don’t sound very clear about the things I might add…
-T-Tar’s making mountains it’s nest and for some odd reason maps have to be redrawn after that (guess what thing T-Tar is based off of…) but he is hardly the only pokemon to **** with land scapes (Gyarados…who is again…based off something)…so with this info about him…of course his “armor” sounds tough…but it says nothing about the inside of it…
-Charizard’s fire breath and its power varies in between the pokedex entries as well I might add…look it up
-Dusclops has a form after it…which is pretty much guiding souls “to the next life” (again based off something)…and I like how you think that it sucking up anything of any size automatically makes it sound like it could suck up worlds…they seem to be talking more along the lines of “those in the living” if you ask me…not landscapes…in fact…nothing at all is said about land…

Overall I’m thinking I could find far more BS things with the move pool that don’t make sense than what the pokedex says…

 

[Samochan]

I kinda find it hilarious a hedgehog/mechanical suit piece could be running at supersonic speeds even if the game doesn't prove it graphically or mechanically just because we're told he does, yet pidgeot/garchomp cannot in no instance be flying at mach 2 for example without people shouting it's faux since they don't do so on battles. Funnily enough, both could hardly do so within the space the battles occur in any case. <_<

And people using chari/clops/t-tar example to prove pokedex is faulty is getting really old. What about the "pokeballs restrain their powers" or "pokemon restraining their powers" within battles, if simple explanation that reading the entries literally might not be a good way to look at the dex? =) Or how about the fact that when pokes actually DO get an outside battle showtime, they prove what the pokedex has stated?

How about ignoring chari/tar/clops examples then, cause they're one of the fews that might cause problems when taking the dex into consideration, but we know most of the dex doesn't have these problems nor isn't proven to be faulty but actually true even when considering the more ridiculous legendaries like Hoenn and sinnoh legends.

Besides, shouldn't we rather believe what the game tells us till it's proven false, than just say "omg this is illogical, it must be faulty"? I don't see how battles prove pidgeot can't FLY/chomp can't HUNT at very high speeds for example. >_> There is a way to reading the pokedex anyway, just like any literature, but encyclopedias that the professors are researching all over pokeverse can't be just faulty, but there's a modicum of truth in that all, even if it says "it is said" as a possibly theory.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Wait, why would BB work on Landmaster/Arwing? By removing the force field? It removes (in Samochan's definition, and maybe Diddy's) barriers. You can say that the force field is a barrier, but so far, all we've seen it do is remove barriers of light that look like window panes.

This is the description on Bulbapedia:

"The user attacks with tough fists, etc. It can also break any barrier such as Light Screen and Reflect."

Light Screen and Reflect are set as examples of what Brick Break would break. Sure it are the only things it breaks in game, but why wouldn't it work on Fox's barriers?

Besides, Mewtwo could also use other moves like Taunt to only allow Fox to attack, or Snatch to steal Fox's barrier even.

There are many options for Mewtwo here. I just don't think he should have lost, a draw would be better.

 

[Samochan]

Diddy, snatch only snatches currently boosted stat ups and things like that, fox's barrier is there from the very beginning.

 

[★Chaos★]

Diddy, snatch only snatches currently boosted stat ups and things like that, fox's barrier is there from the very beginning.

this is so true

 

[PowerBomb]

@_clinton: Oh sorry, I didn't realize ANYTHING didn't include LAND.

So you want us to basically nerf the movepool of every single Pokemon because it doesn't agree with the Dex? There's an explanation for those moves: They are learned either through breeding due to compatible egg groups or through Technical/Hidden Machines which are compatible with the Pokemon itself. Who cares if they can generate electricity without an explanation? I might be a hypocrite if I say this, but the Pokedex DOESN'T contradict Ratata generating electricity or lighting itself up on fire.

I kinda find it hilarious a hedgehog/mechanical suit piece could be running at supersonic speeds even if the game doesn't prove it graphically or mechanically just because we're told he does, yet pidgeot/garchomp cannot in no instance be flying at mach 2 for example without people shouting it's faux since they don't do so on battles. Funnily enough, both could hardly do so within the space the battles occur in any case. <_<

They're shown running fast, what else do you want? Garchomp and Pidgeot don't even learn Extremespeed... or do they?

And people using chari/clops/t-tar example to prove pokedex is faulty is getting really old. What about the "pokeballs restrain their powers" or "pokemon restraining their powers" within battles, if simple explanation that reading the entries literally might not be a good way to look at the dex? =) Or how about the fact that when pokes actually DO get an outside battle showtime, they prove what the pokedex has stated?

Only some Pokes are actually proven outside of battles. Although, the whole 'Poke Ball restraining their dex powers' actually sounds legitimate. It might be an explanation for why Pokemon don't use maximum firepower stated in the Dex during battles. It also limits PT, though. Mewtwo doesn't benefit from it much either, aside from being 'the strongest Pokemon ever created', which is really opinion as all of his stats are beaten by some other Pokemon (same could be said with Arceus).

How about ignoring chari/tar/clops examples then, cause they're one of the fews that might cause problems when taking the dex into consideration, but we know most of the dex doesn't have these problems nor isn't proven to be faulty but actually true even when considering the more ridiculous legendaries like Hoenn and sinnoh legends.

What, a few explains all of them? Let's see: Arceus is proven outside of battle to create a legendary Pokemon, Giratina might have been banished to the Torn World, so there's that... Dialga and Palkia on the other hand, just show their power 'creating/destroying a galaxy'. I mean, space can be distorted to do that, but there's really nothing of time slowing or stopping. Cyrus may say 'Can you feel time distorting', but the player apparently doesn't.
There's also another Dex example where Gyarados can incinerate anything with his Hyper Beam, right?

Besides, shouldn't we rather believe what the game tells us till it's proven false, than just say "omg this is illogical, it must be faulty"? I don't see how battles prove pidgeot can't FLY/chomp can't HUNT at very high speeds for example. >_> There is a way to reading the pokedex anyway, just like any literature, but encyclopedias that the professors are researching all over pokeverse can't be just faulty, but there's a modicum of truth in that all, even if it says "it is said" as a possibly theory.

...What
I don't see how the battles can prove Pidgeot/Garchomp are moving that quickly. Garchomp doesn't even learn Fly. Unless there's SOMETHING backing the Dex up (if Ratata is a common field rat, and it's found in the common field, than whoop-de-doo), it's basically hearsay. Sonic and Samus running at supersonic speeds is shown in the game, where they're running rather quickly. It would be kind of hard to show Samus running at her Speed Booster true speed if she were in a 2-D game.

...You could prove Pidgeot can move at Mach 2 by learning Quick Attack or something. That would prove he can move quickly...

Spoiler

Walls suck, I hate doing them.
I also find it funny that the Dex mentions animals non-existent in the Pokemon world. Samochan, I think you had an explanation for this.

 

[missingnomaster]

I'd still like to see where in game it says that pokeballs restrain the pokemons' power. I don't recall seeing that ANYWHERE in the games, and it's exactly the type of tidbit I would remember seeing. I've only seen it stated on Bulbapedia, without it saying where that statement was found in game.

 

[REL38]

@Powerbomb

But Pidgeot does learn Quick Attack :/

Besides, Fly is always weird.
Dudrio learns it, but where's its wings?
Why can't Beautifly learn Fly when it has wings?
Pikachu learned Fly in Yellow Version >___>

 

[★Chaos★]

obviously we can tell pokemon can be wacky