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Smash Bros. Canon Tournament! (Mario Vs. ????) - 06/14/10

Samochan

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There are multiple Rock Candy.

Quick Claw does not decrease the length of then animation of an attack, and Embargo takes longer than Rock Candy.

Taunt doesn't stop the use of items, especially not attack items.
Nope, but it certainly makes the pokemon do the move first. On turn based setting (which both rock candy and claw are from), peach would lose.

Embargo takes around 2,3-2,5 seconds from where pokemon is told it's gonna use embargo till animation is finished and rock candy takes 4 seconds from when your character starts to do the move and it wraps up the animation and deals the damage. I don't have exact timer at my hands, but that's about the time it takes to use both things. (I did not include the time used to select attack or item here) And not like SMRPG uses the items in conventional means either. <_< It shouldn't take peach any less time to drag that one item from her bag of items, pop it up or something/offer it around lol and then make it work than it does for PT to command his pokemon around.

Besides, PT's pokemon can still do whatever they want without their trainer commands based on their natures, as seen on battle tents/battle frontier on emerald where you cannot command your pokemon to do specific attacks.

Wait . . . . why can PT use Mewtwo?

He's already a character on the roster and giving him to PT is giving Mewtwo dual appearances in these MU's >___>

Only Mewtwo PT is better with held item and tutor moves >______>
I thought we agreed on that, only he can't use mewtwo against mewtwo. <_>

And it's still pokemon trainer who gets the score, not mewtwo. >.>

He's just so **** useful to have around. =D And besides, as it seems no one else even tries to argue for pokemon trainer, I decided mewtwo could be a good asset with embargo and all. ;p

--

Curse cannot be cured by status effect items or anything of the sort like lum berry though, even when lum berry cures confusion.

Accessories are still items like weapons are, aren't they? <_> Even mario wiki refers them as items. You buy or find them around the places and all.

Though embargo would make her vulnerable to all kinds of attacks and it disables accessories too, so mind reader + ohko move should do it nice and clean. <.<
 

REL38

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@Samo

Ehhh

So PT can be using Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Pichu, Lucario and Mewtwo in a single MU?

I don't agree with that at all >__>

Anyways, Rock Candy takes a second to use, if not less.
>1 second to "cast"
After that, it hits everything.
 

justaway12

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I just said to heal herself. She has 99 FP everything she uses will take up 1/2 FP, I think and she only needs to do Sleepy Sheep once.

You equip accessories, but they aren't used as items.

She can defend from Embargo
 

Samochan

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@Samo

Ehhh

So PT can be using Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Pichu, Lucario and Mewtwo in a single MU?

I don't agree with that at all >__>

Anyways, Rock Candy takes a second to use, if not less.
>1 second to "cast"
After that, it hits everything.
I wouldn't be using those pokes lol, there are better ones. But it's not like pika, jiggs, pichu or lucario are unique pokes. Only Mewtwo is, but Red can legally get mewtwo as well. <.<

If we go by activation of said move, embargo takes even less.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlEA7W_mt7w

The animation starts from where the screens disappear and embargo effect comes up immediately, but finishes even faster than rock candy. The mention of using said move is only for player's benefit too, cause you've already selected the move and it only tells you the information about the battle. Course it could be "PT telling the pokemon to use a move", but then choosing the move would be quite redundant maneuver.

I'm still trusting mewtwo to actually make the first move, either via quick claw or just being more speedier than peach is, on rpg terms that is and otherwise having some extreme stats in pokestandards (even on pokethlon mewtwo's speed is 5 stars).

Mewtwo course loses it's advantage of using powers instead of choosing items and activating them if PT needs to command him (commanding and choosing items on both rpg's would take around the same time, as we never see the actual command and item picking from the bag)... but if Mewtwo is out from pokeball from the very beginning, who says Mewtwo needs to be shouted commands at when he's a frigging telepath? =D It's been established Mewtwo can mindspeak and heck, there are even gym leaders who comment about their psychic abilities and connection to their pokemons (and otherwise connection to your pokemons makes you a better trainer overall & things, said many times as you defeat gym leaders) assisting them in pokemon battles, such as sabrina and the twins tate & liza.

I just said to heal herself. She has 99 FP everything she uses will take up 1/2 FP, I think and she only needs to do Sleepy Sheep once.

You equip accessories, but they aren't used as items.

She can defend from Embargo
Pressure would make her waste more fp though. Sleepy sheep doesn't affect all bosses and it's an item, then safeguard can be put up. Some pokes also have imsomnia, preventing them from going to sleep (though red does not have thos luxury). But wouldn't red be able to dodge sleepy sheep if he were just airborne, as those sheeps run across the screen?

Accessories are still items you equip and buy from shops and carry around with you, heck they are prolly the closest relatives to held items you could find from pokemon as held items are also equipped for the pokemon for various effects, but the trainer cannot then use that held item you equipped (or held items like leftovers you can't use outside battles at all unless you equip the pokemon with it).

She can defend, but not forever, many types of attacks would force her to move around. Defending would make her vulnerable to machamp then and I'd still argue for umbrella = item status. >.>
 

PowerBomb

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Guys, don't forget that PT actually has to say '_____, use ____!' PT is a 10-year-old child. Although he might be a master strategist, think about how fast he has to say that. Adds a small delay before attacks are executed...

Hey _clinton, Salamence has the ability to use TK because it learns Hydro Pump, right?

Samochan said:
Oh dear, I had an idea. Get a lopunny and have it use fake out on peach to flinch her with that priority move, while another pokemon with skill swap switches skills with that lopunny and gets klutz (unable to use held items). Then uses skill swap at peach. =D
Peach might have Inner Focus! :O
Admitedly would require the use of embargo first, fake out flinch might not work at all due to her items and requires some setting up... but it would be fun. =) Same with truant from slaking or some other fun abilities like normalize (makes all attacks normal-type), which would make ghost types totally immune.

Wobba could at least keep peach in place if Red were to just run away lol, then try to destiny bond her.
Wobba can't really do anything. Shadow Tag prevents an opponent from switching, not from walking around. Unless you want to use PMD mechanics, in which case immobilization requires physical contact.

Parasol would stop Skill Swap
 

Samochan

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Guys, don't forget that PT actually has to say '_____, use ____!' PT is a 10-year-old child. Although he might be a master strategist, think about how fast he has to say that. Adds a small delay before attacks are executed...

Hey _clinton, Salamence has the ability to use TK because it learns Hydro Pump, right?
Trainer Red it's not 10 year old kid anymore. >.> He's more around 13.

But yea, not like peach offers items to the sky to be accepted from her endless bag (which takes ages to select items from) and then they magically do their stuff independently in span of 1< seconds. >_> If we wanted to be realistic, it would take a lot more time to actually dig an item, then use it than for PT to shout something at his pokemon and them performing an attack with random powers from ready position (or hell, them doing something independently like on battle tent/frontier). It does take around 0,16-0,3 seconds on average from human to react to something expected, then around 0,5-1 seconds to something unexpected, so it would take very, very little time for trained and ready pokemon to respond to PT's commands. as a smasher, I've always been interested in reaction speed and done some tests and asked around too, I've also read some things about human reaction and all. I might be wrong... but still.

Also this:

...but if Mewtwo is out from pokeball from the very beginning, who says Mewtwo needs to be shouted commands at when he's a frigging telepath? =D It's been established Mewtwo can mindspeak and heck, there are even gym leaders who comment about their psychic abilities and connection to their pokemons (and otherwise connection to your pokemons makes you a better trainer overall & things, said many times as you defeat gym leaders) assisting them in pokemon battles, such as sabrina and the twins tate & liza.
Aah sleep x_x
 

justaway12

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Pressure would make her waste more fp though. Sleepy sheep doesn't affect all bosses and it's an item, then safeguard can be put up. Some pokes also have imsomnia, preventing them from going to sleep (though red does not have thos luxury). But wouldn't red be able to dodge sleepy sheep if he were just airborne, as those sheeps run across the screen?
Pokemon have been effected by sleepy sheep though, and no they don't run across the screen, they literally fall of the top of the screen,and bounce on/next to the opponents

Accessories are still items you equip and buy from shops and carry around with you, heck they are prolly the closest relatives to held items you could find from pokemon as held items are also equipped for the pokemon for various effects, but the trainer cannot then use that held item you equipped (or held items like leftovers you can't use outside battles at all unless you equip the pokemon with it).
Sorry, I thought you meant items you use in battle.

She can defend, but not forever, many types of attacks would force her to move around. Defending would make her vulnerable to machamp then and I'd still argue for umbrella = item status. >.>
Her Parasol doesn't show up on the item screen and I didn't mean forever, just when he uses embargo.
 

PowerBomb

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The Parasol might be under the same effect as Marowak's Bone and Farfetch'd's Leek. The Pokemon is clearly shown holding them, and Embargo doesn't affect them.

Use Embargo on Marowak. Marowak uses Bonemerang. Bonemerang is still carried out through.

...but if Mewtwo is out from pokeball from the very beginning, who says Mewtwo needs to be shouted commands at when he's a frigging telepath? =D It's been established Mewtwo can mindspeak and heck, there are even gym leaders who comment about their psychic abilities and connection to their pokemons (and otherwise connection to your pokemons makes you a better trainer overall & things, said many times as you defeat gym leaders) assisting them in pokemon battles, such as sabrina and the twins tate & liza.
PT is not a skilled psychic, that's why
 

Samochan

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Pokemon have been effected by sleepy sheep though, and no they don't run across the screen, they literally fall of the top of the screen,and bounce on/next to the opponents


Then why does it say they run across the screen? <_<

I'll tube this or sumthing.

Sorry, I thought you meant items you use in battle.
Well actually it's both. Embargo prevents both held item usage and trainer item usage. =)

Her Parasol doesn't show up on the item screen and I didn't mean forever, just when he uses embargo.
If peach wanted to avoid embargo spam, she'd need to stick to her parasol. :/ Then machamp would have free reign at her, PT wouldn't even need to command him after one command due to choice scarf and he'd be very fast too.

The Parasol might be under the same effect as Marowak's Bone and Farfetch'd's Leek. The Pokemon is clearly shown holding them, and Embargo doesn't affect them.

Use Embargo on Marowak. Marowak uses Bonemerang. Bonemerang is still carried out through.
It disables the use of stick and thick bone though (which work in place of their graphical counterparts), both of which you can occasionally find from wild farfetch'd and cubone/marowak and are their unique item boosters.

But really, since when has anything graphical disallowed the usage of an attack or something in pokemon? Like not having hands, but being able to punch. >_>

Embargo would be kinda rough to program so that it would disallow cubone/marowak to use bonemerang and it would be fairly stupid too, as it affects items but shouldn't effect attacks. :/

We should be asking instead why farfetch'd and cubone/marowak don't carry around those items on default and couldn't be removed. But that would be very stupid game mech as well.

PT is not a skilled psychic, that's why
Mewtwo is. =) He can mindspeak to other pokes even if they're not psychics either.
 

PowerBomb

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Pokemon still need to be commanded after executing an attack.
...
Unless, of course, the Pokemon know what to do if PT says 'keep attacking consecutively'.
 

justaway12

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Mario wiki is a liar, I belive it even has a picture of sleepy sheep, I'll try to find it.

Embargo has PP, it'll run out eventually, he shouldn't spam it.

EDIT: OLOLOLOLOLOL big mistake, it's called Sleepy Time, not sheep, big mistake >.<
 

Samochan

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Mario wiki is a liar, I belive it even has a picture of sleepy sheep, I'll try to find it.

Embargo has PP, it'll run out eventually, he shouldn't spam it.

EDIT: OLOLOLOLOLOL big mistake, it's called Sleepy Time, not sheep, big mistake >.<
Embargo has pp yes, but Trainer has elixers. :3 That would take a turn course, but he could have his machamp or other poke doing something in the meantime (in doubles using items only consumes one poke's turn).

Peach would eventually need to get outta that parasol, otherwise she'd be stalling. >.>

I thought there was something weird in sheeps falling from the sky and bouncing at people instead of running lol...

Actually that makes for hilarious image. :p
 

justaway12

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PKMN getting out his elixirs would be enough time for Peach to just Rock candy.

I know she would be getting out eventually, just enough time to get rid of PP, even if she isn't, I'm sure Mewtwo can't keep spamming over and over without time inbetween.

And again, she can still use Rock Candy while he is rallying the troops
 

BSP

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Sleepy sheep is the item, Sleepy time is Peach's magic. Can PT counter the stopwatch? I'm behind here.

Did Falco lose to M2?
 

_clinton

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mewtwo hasn't showcased anything further in telepathy besides mindspeak. =) It's not uncommon for telepathic person to be able to affect someone's mind in fiction true, such as jean grey or Emma frost, but as quoted, some telepathic possess the ability but not all. Mewtwo doesn't in the games.
You know…if you actually just look at the list of moves I gave you…that point out Mewtwo having more than mind speak for his telepathy…but whatever…

Linoone learns Ice Beam and Thunderbolt. Also Water Pulse. What now?
Why are you blowing this argument around again?
Actually that still applies to the rules of game mechs. in which things are trying to be fair…you see…Linoone isn’t the only normal pokemon out there to learn stuff like that…all sorts of pokemon do…and if you look at it right…the fact that they can learn that stuff just doesn’t make sense for most of them…but if you look at what the normal type affects (as in no super effectives, 2 resistance, and one immune…and for defense…it is neutral to everything except fighting (weak) and ghost (immune)…

You should see why they would learn some “extra stuff” meant for the purpose of clearly trying to even out the battle system that they would be playing in…

Also…am I the only one questioning how some of them got the label “normal” on their type…because clearly a good percent of them aren’t “normal” in the 1st place (Chansey, Clefable for example)

How much is 200 points when you use it against bosses and whatnot?
The final boss has 8000 Hp...and I'm also pretty sure he could resist that damage from rock candy on top of that (or at least I'm sure certain bosses in MRPG didn't mind rock candy…only taking 100 damage from it)

The real game breaker attack item is "Star Egg" for that game…it ****ing blows rock candy out of the water (saves item space because it can be reused…does 150 damage to all instead of 200…which on the grand scale of things…doesn’t matter if it is weaker)
Just saying...

Salamence has the ability to use TK because it learns Hydro Pump, right?
Hey...good job actually reading the argument and getting it man...you did a real good job there...
Saying the same thing dealing with pikachu still and how there is a logical reason behind some of the stuff he does…but you totally don’t get that...I mean...wow!

Pokemon still need to be commanded after executing an attack.
Ah no...fun fact...there are wild pokemon...chances are w/o PT commanding them all the time...they would just behave like wild pokemon...
 

missingnomaster

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Lol, have you even payed attention to the stats of those normal types learning Ice Beam and Thunderbolt? Most of them have horrid sp atk. Not a balance issue at all.


Also lol at calling pokemon's movesets a game mechanic
 

_clinton

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Lol, have you even payed attention to the stats of those normal types learning Ice Beam and Thunderbolt? Most of them have horrid sp atk. Not a balance issue at all.
I like how you think "Thunderbolt" and "Ice Beam" were the only example out of that list for my point...even though I never said they were...in fact my terms label it as quite open...to the stats they have...and the stats they don't have...

Oh and by comparison...the stats do have some variety overall...not all of them have attack>special attack

Of course...the thing you just brought up was an example of this as well:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AwesomeButImpractical

Also lol at calling pokemon's movesets a game mechanic
I didn't say "all pokemon's" or even "all of their movesets"...the range for example is only to the thoughts of something like a field mouse like rattata...using something like this:
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Flame_Wheel_(move)

I mean...there is only one event in my mind where rattata would be cloaked in flames while tackling you...and that's if his trainer dumps lighter fluid on him and flicks a match at him after that...and I'm thinking that would suck more for rattata than it would for his foe...or at least something like that...
 

_clinton

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You clearly are underestimating pokemon... Aren't you one of the guys who supports the pokedex? You should know better...
I support the pokedex when it is talking about "mythical stuff" such as Ninetails, Arcanine, Gyarados, and whatever other mystical things start to come up...because they are based off "real myths"

There is a clear difference when talking about something like this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitsune

Over something like this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rodent

Something like Ninetails having a off beat move sort of makes sense...because of what it is based off off...but the pokedex doesn't even support Raticate's move pool...I mean check the thing out...if I didn't know better...I'd say the thing is giving a description of a ****ing huge rat...

http://www.psypokes.com/dex/psydex/020/general

Nothing in there says that it can generate it's own electricity...in fact...I'm pretty sure the programing for the game is the only reason it has those moves (because it shares said type with things...that might have it)

Do you really think the people for the games hand codes each individual move on each and every pokemon?
I mean...there could be some exceptions for moves for some pokemon...but...not 500 some odd moves for close to 500 things...I mean...look at how all the pure normal pokemon pretty much share the same moves for certain areas...plus...if you look at the games coding...they clearly have somethings in common (egg type for example)

Ever wonder how various random pokemon sites have up to date stats on the game such as new moves the pokemon learn by the 1st day the stuff comes out? They have to look into how the game is made...
 

_clinton

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Whatever, I'm still going with the game over your heavily opinionated exceptions
The game itself doesn't support something like raticate realistically breathing fire/generating electricity though from looking at it's description in the pokedex...

Again...the pokedex is a real part of the pokemon Plot
The move pools that each pokemon can learn...is a part of game mechs. as in things the player can influence more

They are in two different categories...

And I hardly consider my thing heavily opinionated for this...I mean...I'm just looking at some vary basic programming examples for trying to explain some things to you...like how 14 final form pokemon of the same types learn a good % of the same moves...and have the same general stats/battle role as well (but again...have some differences to barely set them apart)...

If you could get pretty much the same end result from 500 words of text...compared to 10,500 words...which would you rather spend time doing?
 

missingnomaster

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And yet even a simple RAT can put up a near perfect barrier with Protect. In fact, out of all the pokemon that can learn TMs, Regigigas is the only one who can't.

So I'm definitely not going with realism on the moveset issue.
 

_clinton

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And yet even a simple RAT can put up a near perfect barrier with Protect. In fact, out of all the pokemon that can learn TMs, Regigigas is the only one who can't.
How about you actually look at what protect is...it isn't a barrier...it seems more of a "guard" if anything or a "dodge" move...Also...said rat fails at learning any of the true shield moves (reflect/light screen/barrier) so you people really need to look at "protect/detect" more (fun fact...detect is the same thing as protect...just with less PP for some dumb reason and is a different type)
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Protect_(move)

Hell...even the move endure runs off the same game stat data...only it deals with the actual taking of the hit...

It enables the user to evade all attacks.
And where do you get this "info" about Regigigas not being able to learn TMs? I'm just wondering because it's wrong...
http://www.serebii.net/pokedex-dp/486.shtml

Oh and again...how come you don't get this?
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Ptitler4e1mm02
 

Diddy Kong

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Why did Mewtwo lost to Fox? With a physical set with Brick Break, Bulk Up, Recover and Protect, he's overall better protected than Fox with the barriers, and can tank quite a lot of hits himself.

Brick Break would destroy Fox's barriers, and Protect would pretty much be able to guard against any of Fox's charged shots.

Also, Mewtwo can heal, Fox cannot.
 

theunabletable

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Chaos said:
master sword isn't ganon's only weakness but in other words
its the only way to kill him
Ray Kalm said:
You're wrong. There's only one recurring main antagonist throughout the series, and that is, Ganondorf.
I'm probably late saying this, but both of these are completely wrong.

LttP states that the Silver Arrow is the only thing that can kill the Maou (demon king) Ganon. The Master Sword was unable to kill Ganon in LttP, either.

OoT introduces Ganondorf, touches the Triforce and becomes the Daimaou Ganon.

FSA introduces a theif lord Ganondorf who is unrelated to the other Ganondorf from OoT, TP, and TWW and touches the trident and becomes the Yami no Maou Ganon.

OoT and FSA for sure have different Ganons.

And Vaati is a recurring antagonist, too ;)

By the way, ANYTHING can kill Ganondorf, unless he has the Triforce of Power. The ToP is what stops him from dying (notice how in TWW he is killed because he doesn't have the ToP, and the ToP fades at the end in TP before he dies). So have we decided that Ganondorf has the ToP? Because if he doesn't, he's very, very killable.
 

Ganonsburg

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I'm probably late saying this, but both of these are completely wrong.

LttP states that the Silver Arrow is the only thing that can kill the Maou (demon king) Ganon. The Master Sword was unable to kill Ganon in LttP, either.

OoT introduces Ganondorf, touches the Triforce and becomes the Daimaou Ganon.

FSA introduces a theif lord Ganondorf who is unrelated to the other Ganondorf from OoT, TP, and TWW and touches the trident and becomes the Yami no Maou Ganon.

OoT and FSA for sure have different Ganons.

And Vaati is a recurring antagonist, too ;)

By the way, ANYTHING can kill Ganondorf, unless he has the Triforce of Power. The ToP is what stops him from dying (notice how in TWW he is killed because he doesn't have the ToP, and the ToP fades at the end in TP before he dies). So have we decided that Ganondorf has the ToP? Because if he doesn't, he's very, very killable.
We're talking about characters at their full potential (as seen in games), so obviously that means he has the ToP. OoT Ganon=WW Ganon=TP Ganon. FSA might have a different Ganon, but that's not important really because we haven't mentioned any/many of FSA Ganon powers.

:034:
 

PowerBomb

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Why did Mewtwo lost to Fox? With a physical set with Brick Break, Bulk Up, Recover and Protect, he's overall better protected than Fox with the barriers, and can tank quite a lot of hits himself.

Brick Break would destroy Fox's barriers, and Protect would pretty much be able to guard against any of Fox's charged shots.

Also, Mewtwo can heal, Fox cannot.
Brick Break can't reach Fox

_clinton said:
Ah no...fun fact...there are wild pokemon...chances are w/o PT commanding them all the time...they would just behave like wild pokemon...
What, use random moves? I said they needed to be commanded again because they aren't wild Pokemon until PT releases them. I doubt he'd do that in a battle.
 

Ray_Kalm

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I'm probably late saying this, but both of these are completely wrong.

LttP states that the Silver Arrow is the only thing that can kill the Maou (demon king) Ganon. The Master Sword was unable to kill Ganon in LttP, either.

OoT introduces Ganondorf, touches the Triforce and becomes the Daimaou Ganon.

FSA introduces a theif lord Ganondorf who is unrelated to the other Ganondorf from OoT, TP, and TWW and touches the trident and becomes the Yami no Maou Ganon.

OoT and FSA for sure have different Ganons.

And Vaati is a recurring antagonist, too ;)

By the way, ANYTHING can kill Ganondorf, unless he has the Triforce of Power. The ToP is what stops him from dying (notice how in TWW he is killed because he doesn't have the ToP, and the ToP fades at the end in TP before he dies). So have we decided that Ganondorf has the ToP? Because if he doesn't, he's very, very killable.
Different legends doesn't mean different characters.

I don't have time to make a reply, so here.

Okay, not really, but I do believe this is a better option, and one that is much better supported by the evidence. To support my argument that there is only one Ganon, I am going to use two kinds of evidence. The first kind of evidence is the kind we are all familiar with: canon evidence from trustworthy sources (namely, games and manuals). The second kind of evidence is a sort I have not used before in an article on this site: creator evidence. Creator evidence is any evidence that gives insight into the intention of the creators, regardless of whether it is in the Zelda canon or not. Why am I considering such evidence? Because the games were made by these creators, and if anybody's intention should have weight, it is theirs. If the creators intended for something to be true in their world, then it is a waste of time to speculate otherwise. There are of course important caveats one must keep in mind when using such evidence - for example, do we really understand what they're saying, and was their intention communicated to us correctly? But that is a subject for another article. In this article I am only going to use very straightforward evidence, the clarity of which no reasonable person can deny.
To explain why I believe there is one Ganon, I will give the story behind Ganondorf and Ganon, as I think the creators have intended to tell it all along. If you don't believe this account, please bear with me to the end, because I think you will find that it is well supported. Now then, the history of Ganon begins with Ganondorf. Ganondorf was just a regular human until he found the Triforce. He used the Triforce to become an evil king, and he took on the name of "Ganon" as well. At times he appears in monster form, and usually, but not always, this monster form is known as Ganon. Ganon was first told about in LoZ and AoL, but this is when Ganondorf has already been Ganon for many long years. We got our first peak at Ganondorf, Ganon's original human form, in the ALttP manual:
One day, quite by accident, a gate to the Golden Land of the Triforce was opened by a gang of thieves skilled in the black arts. This land was like no other. In the gathering twilight, the Triforce shone from its resting place high above the world. In a long running battle, the leader of the thieves fought his way past his followers in a lust for the Golden Power. After vanquishing his own followers, the leader stood triumphant over the Triforce and grasped it with his blood- stained hands. He heard a whispered voice: "If thou has a strong desire or dream, wish for it..." And in reply, the roaring laughter of the brigand leader echoed across time and space and even reached the far-off land of Hyrule. The name of this king of thieves is Ganondorf Dragmire, but he is known by his alias, Mandrag Ganon, which means Ganon of the Enchanted Thieves. (U.S. manual, SNES version, p.5)​
This is the story as given in the American ALttP SNES manual. Note that, from the perspective I'm giving, this story about Ganondorf is giving background information about Ganon, a character we are already supposed to know about from the NES games. Keeping that in mind, I would like to point out some things from the Japanese version of the manual. (Wherever the American version of a source differs from the Japanese version, the Japanese version wins. The Japanese version is closer to the original intention of the creators. The American version is a translation, and translations often go awry.) Now, the last sentence of the above quote is significantly different in the Japanese version of the manual:
The man's name was Ganondorf, and his common name was Ganon of the race of evil thieves. Indeed, the King of Evil Ganon, the one who has threatened Hyrule so, was born at this time. (Zethar-II's translation)​
According to Zethar, that last sentence implies or assumes that the reader already knows who Ganon is. "Duh," the reader is supposed to think, "they're talking about Ganon from the NES games." This sentence is saying that the Ganon we all know and love from the NES games was born right here. That is to say, the thief Ganondorf became the evil king Ganon, the same Ganon from the NES games, when he got the Triforce. Now why, I ask, would the creators appeal to knowledge that the reader is already supposed to have about the NES Ganon, if they really intended for this to be a different Ganon? The common-sense answer is clear: the creators intended for ALttP to tell more about the NES Ganon, not to introduce a new Ganon.
(On a side note, Wind Waker corroborates this story about "Ganon" being Ganondorf's common name. The names "Ganon" and "Ganondorf" are mixed almost interchangably in TWW. In fact, he is most often called Ganon by those who know about him best (such as the King, Valoo, Jabun, etc.) Sometimes they call him Ganondorf, and he calls himself Ganondorf.)
My next topic is Ocarina of Time. There has literally been endless debate in the Zelda community whether the events depicted in OoT correspond to the "Imprisoning War" described in the ALttP manual. Thanks to this confusion and the proliferation of debate, there have been many opinions about where the Imprisoning War is placed in the timeline. Some put it before OoT. Some put it during. Some put it after. Nobody agrees on anything. Since this issue pertains to theories about whether there is one Ganon or many, I will attempt to quash some of the more radical theories with some simple interview quotes. These quotes are real beauties, and I would never have found them without the help of Mak and Zethar-II. (Thanks guys!)
The first quote comes from the Japanese magazine Famimaga 64. This interview was conducted with Miyamoto-san around November 26, 1997, about a year before the game's release. Miyamoto answered 100 questions about OoT in this interview. This translation was originally posted on IGN64.com, and the whole transcript can be viewed here.
Q: Are the backgrounds different in the child and adult eras?

Miyamoto: During the time when Link is an adult, conditions are intensified. Ganon, from the Super NES game, is a human form before he transforms into a monster. Ganon's elements change during the adult, since he changes into a monster.
The second quote comes from Ki no ue no Himitsu kichi, a Japanese gaming web site. This is an Ocarina of Time interview, parts of which were translated by Zethar-II. The quote is from character designer Satoru Takizawa.
This time, the story really wasn't an original. We were dealing with the "The Imprisoning War of the Seven Sages" from the SNES edition Zelda. To give that game a little "secret" recognition, I thought that keeping the "pigness" in Ganon would be the correct course. So we made him a beast "with the feeling of a pig."
These two quotes should make it pretty obvious that Ocarina of Time is meant to be a further explanation of the Imprisoning War account in the ALttP manual. It should also be obvious that Ganon(dorf) in OoT and Ganon in ALttP are the same person, because, well, the creators said so.
The one-Ganon interpretation is corroborated by all available Nintendo of America (NOA) materials, including guides, Nintendo Power magazine, and NOA's web sites. NOA is admittedly not the most reliable source for solid Zelda facts. I am the first to admit that, in the early days at least, NOA was not very careful when they communicated the story of Zelda to us. However, I do have some sources which supposedly have information straight from the creators, relatively untainted by carelessness and stupidity. Two summaries of an early version of OoT's story were published by NOA in 1997. They supposedly came straight from the creators, and are therefore of great interest to fans.
The first comes from Nintendo Power magazine, volume 103 (Dec 1997). It implies that there is one Ganon, the same Ganon one has been familiar with in past Zelda games.
The outline of the story for Zelda 64 comes straight from EAD, the chief game development department at Nintendo Company Ltd. in Kyoto, Japan. Although EAD considers everything "tentative" until the final version of a game is completed, much of what you read here will be part of Mr. Miyamoto's greatest epic. Long ago, before Gannon stole the Triforce and kidnapped Zelda, Link set out to his coming-of-age ceremony in the Maze Woods.
The second quote comes from Nintendo's own web site, Nintendo.com. Thanks to the Internet Archive, this page was preserved for prosperity and can still be viewed at this URL. Once again, it is implied that OoT stars the same Ganon we are supposed to be familiar with from earlier Zelda games.
Prepare to journey once again to Hyrule, land of the ancestors of the gods, in Zelda 64. As Zelda 64 gets closer to release this winter in Japan, additional details about the game's setting and story line are being revealed by the game's developers. Even though Zelda 64's story is set in the misty past, players will once again take on the mantle of the young hero, Link.
[...]
Zelda 64 tells the story of an earlier age of Hyrule, when Gannon was merely known as the king of thieves and not the powerful creature of evil he becomes in the other Legend of Zelda adventures.
One could argue that it's possible the creators didn't say it was the same Ganon, and that NOA merely assumed this. However, if you look at the two interview quotes from Miyamoto I gave above, you will see that this information is confirmed by a direct quote from a creator. One could then argue that Miyamoto was mistaken. After all, he did state his own timeline order, which most people suspect must be wrong. My answer is, it is possible for the creators to say something that is wrong, but this doesn't mean they're wrong all the time, or should always be suspect. I don't think it's possible for any creator to be careless about something this important. I do think the creators take a kind of cavalier attitude toward the storyline many times. That is why the timeline seems to be a confusing hodgepodge, and why certain creators are confused at times about the story. But as far as there being one Ganon, that's pretty simple and straightforward. Either they decided from the start that there was one Ganon, or they decided there were many. I think the above evidence points to the former option.
Finally, one could argue that the interviews do not say what the creators really meant to say. That is, everybody misunderstood the creators and, assuming there is one Ganon, made it appear that the creators are saying this. All I can say to that is, if the creators intended for there to be multiple Ganons, they would have said so in order to keep people from assuming there is only one. As it is, nothing says that there is not one Ganon. So, almost by default, we are left to assume there is only one Ganon, since this is the easiest course given the similarity of all the Ganons. I doubt the creators would have left us to assume there is one Ganon, if they really intended for there to be multiple Ganons. They would have tried to correct such a misunderstanding by saying explicitly that there are multiple Ganons.
Perhaps some people will still want to be a stick-in-the-mud, or play devil's advocate. "I can't accept these rubbish sources," they'll say, "I only believe sources I consider canon: games and manuals." I was once this way. However, after seeing the preponderance of evidence given above, any doubt about the matter was in my mind erased. If you can't believe the creators when they're being pretty clear, then who can you believe? Even if you choose to only look at evidence from the games and manuals, I think the one-Ganon interpretation is the only one that makes sense. As far as I can see, people only believe in multiple Ganons (a) because it helps their crazy, messed up timeline theory, or (
they want to be different. All I can say is, if you keep in mind that the creators were intending to tell about one Ganon in the Zelda games, then the facts given in the games fit, and make a lot of sense. If you try to suppose otherwise, you'll be in for a world of pain, theory-wise. Most of the facts in the Zelda canon imply that there is only one Ganon, and do not in any way suggest there are more than one. I'm not going to spend my time giving all the evidence from games and manuals that supports the one-Ganon theory. If you approach the Zelda games with too open a mind, you can come up with any theory you want about the matter. I cannot prove every deviant theory wrong, because there are too many of them, and all of them are possible given only canon facts. Eventually you have to draw a common-sense line: if the creators intended for a certain thing to be true, you'd be better off not wasting your time theorizing otherwise.
Conclusion
I have argued that multiple-Ganon theories are based on very little. A fair examination of all available facts leads naturally to the conclusion that there is one Ganon, not that there are many. People generally like to speculate about multiple Ganons to be different, or because it helps with their crazy timeline theory. Generally, the only support for multiple-Ganon theories is canon evidence that is pulled out and forced to fit. As Sherlock Holmes says, facts are twisted to fit theories, instead of theories being based on the trend of all available facts. It is very difficult to prove anything in Zelda using only canon facts from the games, because the facts are so vague that many different theories are possible. So, instead of trying to prove there is one Ganon using canon facts, I instead gave evidence from outside the Zelda canon. My evidence, if one chooses to believe it, shows that the creators intended for there to be one Ganon, even if they didn't state this too clearly within the Zelda canon itself. The Zelda canon itself shows all the signs that the creators intended for there to be one Ganon: an examination of the relevant facts naturally leads to a belief in one Ganon.
One might disagree with an assumption I have made throughout this article: that a fair examination of the Zelda canon leads to a belief in one Ganon. After all, I have not bothered to give a fair examination of the relevant canon facts in this article. However, I do have some evidence for that statement, which is this: most Zelda fans believe there is one Ganon. In fact, most fans think it is obvious there is only one Ganon. It is true that not everybody examines the Zelda facts fairly; but the fact remains that, after playing through the games, the natural conclusion to make is that there is one Ganon. If the creators had intended for there to be multiple Ganons, they would have put in a LOT of facts to illustrate this intention, and it would thus be natural for fans to conclude there are multiple Ganons. After all, the point of creating anything is to get one's intention across. If the creators really intended for there to be multiple Ganons, and yet it appears that there is only one, then the creators have failed miserably. I don't think any true Zelda fan would prefer to retain their crazy multiple-Ganon theory, if it means assuming that the creators have failed miserably in their storytelling. But that's up to fans to decide for themselves.
 

Samochan

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Brick Break can't reach Fox
Brick break was used against landmaster, if you recall. >_>;

Arwing was owned with hail/blizzard or cm/thunder combo, with both having 100% accuracy arwing could do **** about it.

But I guess we'll redo this matchup at some point.

What, use random moves? I said they needed to be commanded again because they aren't wild Pokemon until PT releases them. I doubt he'd do that in a battle.
Actually, trainer pokemons CAN and will do their own moves if they cannot be commanded/do not want to listen to the trainer.

On battle frontier Battle Palace, you get your pokemon up there and depending of it's nature, it'll decide on it's own what moves it wants to use as you cannot command it. There is a chart at serebii what kinds of moves the pokemon loves to use on it's own depending of it's nature, what it likes to use, what moves it dislikes & hates using and what moves it'll use when in pinch (the change part).

http://serebii.net/emerald/palace.shtml

So if PT was not commanding them, they'd do their own stuff lol. Commanding them with each move used is just more effective strategically, but it's not impossible to actually clear battle palace 42 rounds + frontier brain when your pokemon uses your desired moveset keke.

If the pokemon were using a choice item though, it wouldn't exacly need to be commanded to use a certain move as it's limited to using that one move till it's recalled back.

On a side note, on DPP, they also added characteristics to pokemon. :3

http://serebii.net/games/characteristics.shtml
 

justaway12

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I'm not part of the Ganon debate, I just wanted to know if there were some new posts in this page, I thought that there would be a lot to read through, but no matter, it's not gone that far actually.
 

Samochan

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I'm not part of the Ganon debate, I just wanted to know if there were some new posts in this page, I thought that there would be a lot to read through.
Not really, only mine above about trainer pokes using moves without trainer commanding.

It kinda halted when people went to bed/started ganon debating. :p But I rather go play some homm3 now before the matchup is concluded though.

Just wondering though... dig can be used outside battles to exit dungeons, so that would mean PT could go with a pokemon that uses dig, same as fly. I doubt that even if rock candy were to hit a flying pokemon out of range, it's doubtful it would hit an underground opponent. So PT could feasibly have a pokemon that knows dig/fly and immediately use it, while his other pokemon (either released or already out) would then either take the hit and do stuff on it's own or work on commands PT has given it before going. On it's own it could have a nature, which would use support moves it has aka embargo, so peach couldn't use any further items. Then Mewtwo's telepathy could feasibly connect with PT even while unreachable, he does do so on PMD when you can't even see him but the pokes hear him on their minds so it wouldn't be farfetched for PT to command Mewtwo when underground/flying.

Then after embargo is done, PT could come back and get mewtwo/lugia do safeguard and things (unless already done), then release more pokes, most notably this machamp that pwns peach and her umbrella and other pokemons I've mentioned, like maybe wobba that'll keep peach in place and destiny bond/mirror coat her, perish song user that'll perish song her when PT uses dig/fly or simply someone with mind reader/lock on and OHKO when embargo is still working. Embargo works on accessories too, they are much like held items on pokemon (like only usable on battles when held by poke), but embargo also disables trainer from using items.Thus making peach vulnerable to things like ohko and statuses.

I'm also wondering if peach could even use an item if she were attack by say, priority moves like extremespeed, aqua jet etc.

If all above fails to work, PT could still have a steelix wrap around him as protection against rock candy/firebomb and using protect, then mewtwo using embargo on it's own or PT shouting commands from inside steelix's protection. Or Onix, he'd resist firebomb and that star attack (I'd assume it's normal type, liek swift).

I'ma take a pause naw. :3
 

missingnomaster

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How about you actually look at what protect is...it isn't a barrier...it seems more of a "guard" if anything or a "dodge" move...Also...said rat fails at learning any of the true shield moves (reflect/light screen/barrier) so you people really need to look at "protect/detect" more (fun fact...detect is the same thing as protect...just with less PP for some dumb reason and is a different type)
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Protect_(move)

Hell...even the move endure runs off the same game stat data...only it deals with the actual taking of the hit...



And where do you get this "info" about Regigigas not being able to learn TMs? I'm just wondering because it's wrong...
http://www.serebii.net/pokedex-dp/486.shtml

Oh and again...how come you don't get this?
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Ptitler4e1mm02
I'm going by what actually happens. How about you LOOK at what Protect is? Notice how the only time it is shown as a dodge is once, in the anime? I'm pretty sure barriers of light is a little different than dodging, it seems pretty unmistakable to me.

And then there's reading comprehension fail. Regigigas cannot learn Protect. (obviously a balancing issue, so not even a big point in the first place)
 

Kewkky

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Humm, wonder where my post went... I swear I made a post here a day or two ago, wonder what happened to it.

How did Samus end up in a draw? If we agree the Speed Booster and Hyper Mode make Samus invincible, and an invincible Bowser isn't affected by stopwatches, how do people keep coming up with the conclusion that stopwatches will affect Samus? Samus' Plasma beams can penetrate Mario's defenses and hit him, plus she has infinite ammo. She just needs to maintain her invincibility while shooting Mario wherever he runs or jumps (she can aim at any angle practically), and once she hits him, due to the penetration and going through Mario's body effect, he would die (5 hits for his 5hp I guess) and use a life shroom, which according to the new rules means he dies. How can Mario overcome her invincibility?


D: <----- This is my face
 

Diddy Kong

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Brick Break can't reach Fox
Oh it doesn't? Well, the Landmaster isn't all that fast, Mewtwo would be able to hit it with ease. Fox is moving around, but who says Mewtwo isn't? Besides, Mewtwo's been shown to be pretty fast.

Why has Mewtwo exactly lost this? He's got all of Fox's options countered, if anything it should be a draw...
 

Samochan

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Oh it doesn't? Well, the Landmaster isn't all that fast, Mewtwo would be able to hit it with ease. Fox is moving around, but who says Mewtwo isn't? Besides, Mewtwo's been shown to be pretty fast.

Why has Mewtwo exactly lost this? He's got all of Fox's options countered, if anything it should be a draw...
I dunno, I went to sleep and it was somehow decided cm/thunder and hail/blizzard is null and brick break for some reason is ineffective against force fields/barriers cause of LOL protect being as the only evidence (which is not, I've gone through that). >_> If by game mechanics protect is an evasion and not a barrier that affects environment, then it's no wonder brick break won't break it then. Within the game, protect is treated as an evasion, many game mechanics support this. Graphics don't mean too much when someone having no hands is shown to punch, or when cubone/marowak still doing their bonemerangs when you've stolen their items/disabled their use lol.
 

justaway12

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Just wondering though... dig can be used outside battles to exit dungeons, so that would mean PT could go with a pokemon that uses dig, same as fly. I doubt that even if rock candy were to hit a flying pokemon out of range, it's doubtful it would hit an underground opponent. So PT could feasibly have a pokemon that knows dig/fly and immediately use it, while his other pokemon (either released or already out) would then either take the hit and do stuff on it's own or work on commands PT has given it before going. On it's own it could have a nature, which would use support moves it has aka embargo, so peach couldn't use any further items. Then Mewtwo's telepathy could feasibly connect with PT even while unreachable, he does do so on PMD when you can't even see him but the pokes hear him on their minds so it wouldn't be farfetched for PT to command Mewtwo when underground/flying.
Are you saying he should climb underground? I don't think he would be able to go under fast enough.

Then after embargo is done, PT could come back and get mewtwo/lugia do safeguard and things (unless already done), then release more pokes, most notably this machamp that pwns peach and her umbrella and other pokemons I've mentioned, like maybe wobba that'll keep peach in place and destiny bond/mirror coat her, perish song user that'll perish song her when PT uses dig/fly or simply someone with mind reader/lock on and OHKO when embargo is still working. Embargo works on accessories too, they are much like held items on pokemon (like only usable on battles when held by poke), but embargo also disables trainer from using items.Thus making peach vulnerable to things like ohko and statuses.
I belive I've replied to this stuff before.

She just needs to defend from Embargo, PP and Elixers would have to run out.

Just so you know, if Peach has her frying pan, she becomes stronger than Bowser.

If all above fails to work, PT could still have a steelix wrap around him as protection against rock candy/firebomb and using protect, then mewtwo using embargo on it's own or PT shouting commands from inside steelix's protection. Or Onix, he'd resist firebomb and that star attack (I'd assume it's normal type, liek swift).
Remember, Fire Bomb is used before the match, it's quick.
 
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