Smash Bros. Canon Tournament! (Mario Vs. ????) - 06/14/10

[PowerBomb]

@Powerbomb

But Pidgeot does learn Quick Attack :/

Besides, Fly is always weird.
Dudrio learns it, but where's its wings?
Why can't Beautifly learn Fly when it has wings?
Pikachu learned Fly in Yellow Version >___>

Pikachu learns Fly in HGSS

I know Pidgeot learns Quick Attack; he just doesn't learn Extremespeed.

I'd still like to see where in game it says that pokeballs restrain the pokemons' power. I don't recall seeing that ANYWHERE in the games, and it's exactly the type of tidbit I would remember seeing. I've only seen it stated on Bulbapedia, without it saying where that statement was found in game.

I'm pretty sure Cyrus says is SOMEWHERE when he's describing the Red Chain.

 

[Samochan]

Why would garchomp learn fly anyway, if the basis of using fly means you gotta be able to use it for extended travels and be able to carry a human, which garchomp couldn't do as it needs to folds it's wings aka become aerodynamic enough to even fly around at high speeds. Who knows if chomp with it's heavy and big body can even fly that high, making it impossible for it to fly high and travel between cities. Chomps only use it to hunt anyway. Kinda like this one lizard capable of running atop water, but how and how long it can do is quite different and between the lines (or not at all).

But then again, we have a pidgey that learns fly and with it's body would be impossible to even carry a trainer around, but somehow it still does. >_> GG battling system controversy?

But like, if something learns a move or not, doesn't mean the dex is automatically faulty. I mean Lucario cannot move as fast as ninjask or isn't told to move at mach 2 speeds in atmosphere, but still learns extremespeed. Same goes for many other pokes, heck pidgey learns quick attack but it can't go at mach 2.

Where does the dex mention animals do not exist? <_< The raichu part uses an elephant as an example, though that's not much. It's not relevant in this discussion though.

Oh and btw, Rattata IS your common field rat. It's one of the first pokemon you can see whenever you go into the adventure and found veery commonly from fields of grass, alongside it's evolved form raticate somewhat uncommonly. And not only fields but caves, towers, at day & night...

I don't wanna hear your excuses though, that "these two don't do the exact stuff we've told, but we'll believe it anyway" but then you start to nitpick "it's time distortion, not mastery over time" when multiple sources on 4 different games state & show it and you take the pokemon battling system so literally you ignore over half what the game has to offer, even though it's just as canon as the battling system is. The battling system IS basically the one conflicting with everything else, as it cannot showcase what it should showcase, like aforementioned fly mechanics are bugged. You can go through the game with minimal battles, so why would a miniscule part of the game even dictate what's canon and what's not? Over a storytelling of the game no less? Guess fishook & bottles > ganon then if mechanics are such a big part of this discussion and take precedence over the actual story.

The RPG mechanics not only need balance, but are also very limited. Personally, I'd care very much if clops suddenly started to suck in both my pokes and my trainer, resulting in game over and having to start a new game or something, instead of it just not using this power on a competitive battle where the idea is to faint your opponent, not kill them and both trainers. Even chari gets this, thus it won't roast a weaker opponent.

So the big question is: why should the RPG battle mechanics dictate what's canon in the pokeverse over a storyline it contradicts when we ignore half of the RPG (and other) game mechanics in the first place hm?

Battling system is there, so we can enjoy a good RPG gameplay, byt the story is there so we can enjoy the whole game. Without dex & story, one cannot explain why mew learns all tm's, hm's and move tutor moves or why the trainer collects pokemon in the first place. Without battling system, the statistics of the pokemon and moves won't become known. If you ignore story, we could very well assume PT is an abused child who left home, then became a poacher of some sort for Professors ans robs money from innocent passerbyes. But if you ignore battling system well, it's kinda tough to raise pokemon without one eh?

 

[PowerBomb]

Wait, I thought the whole 'Poke Ball limiting' thing would just make the Dex not really contradict anything and give us a reason as to why the game mechanics are like that?

EDIT: Charizard will still use a Flamethrower on a level 1 Togepi

Where does the dex mention animals do not exist? <_< The raichu part uses an elephant as an example, though that's not much. It's not relevant in this discussion though.

I never said the Dex says they don't exist. I said that the animals in the Pokemon world don't actually exist based on the games. Of course, reality animals might still be there, somewhere.

Oh and btw, Rattata IS your common field rat. It's one of the first pokemon you can see whenever you go into the adventure and found veery commonly from fields of grass, alongside it's evolved form raticate somewhat uncommonly. And not only fields but caves, towers, at day & night...

I know, that's what I said >_>

I don't wanna hear your excuses though, that "these two don't do the exact stuff we've told, but we'll believe it anyway" but then you start to nitpick "it's time distortion, not mastery over time" when multiple sources on 4 different games state & show it and you take the pokemon battling system so literally you ignore over half what the game has to offer, even though it's just as canon as the battling system is. The battling system IS basically the one conflicting with everything else, as it cannot showcase what it should showcase, like aforementioned fly mechanics are bugged. You can go through the game with minimal battles, so why would a miniscule part of the game even dictate what's canon and what's not? Over a storytelling of the game no less? Guess fishook & bottles > ganon then if mechanics are such a big part of this discussion and take precedence over the actual story.

Dialga never freaking shows the ability to have control over time! All we've seen is creation of one galaxy and near destruction of another! Cyrus saying something doesn't merely make it true (same could be said with Poke Ball limitations but that makes sense). Other legends, such as Kyogre and Groudon, they actually have some basis. All Dialga's doing is "lulz galaxy". What, Ganny? Don't we change an amount of that stuff when it seems silly, like how Ganondorf becomes transfixed by a fish hook and his energy bolts are repelled by a bottle?

So the big question is: why should the RPG battle mechanics dictate what's canon in the pokeverse over a storyline it contradicts when we ignore half of the RPG (and other) game mechanics in the first place hm?

Pokemon has a central story? The only actual central storyline is just "stop the baddies, go become league champ". Guess how you do that? Battling, right?

Battling system is there, so we can enjoy a good RPG gameplay, byt the story is there so we can enjoy the whole game. Without dex & story, one cannot explain why mew learns all tm's, hm's and move tutor moves or why the trainer collects pokemon in the first place. Without battling system, the statistics of the pokemon and moves won't become known. If you ignore story, we could very well assume PT is an abused child who left home, then became a poacher of some sort for Professors ans robs money from innocent passerbyes. But if you ignore battling system well, it's kinda tough to raise pokemon without one eh?

lmao. That's pretty funny. So if one contradicts the other, than we have some jacked up thing. If we take both of them for canon, than we have contradiction. Unless you want to just disregard the entire battling system and make up fanfiction-style these battles for PT.

 

[★Chaos★]

charizard would still use blast burn on a lv1 caterpie
i mean really....c'mon

 

[Samochan]

Dialga never freaking shows the ability to have control over time! All we've seen is creation of one galaxy and near destruction of another! Cyrus saying something doesn't merely make it true (same could be said with Poke Ball limitations but that makes sense). Other legends, such as Kyogre and Groudon, they actually have some basis. All Dialga's doing is "lulz galaxy". What, Ganny? Don't we change an amount of that stuff when it seems silly, like how Ganondorf becomes transfixed by a fish hook and his energy bolts are repelled by a bottle?

Pokemon has a central story? The only actual central storyline is just "stop the baddies, go become league champ". Guess how you do that? Battling, right?

Dialga shows this ability on 2 different games, 6 if you count versions. >_> And cyrus only states a fact which Dialga is near on demonstrating fully, but he's certainly not the only source. There's the champion who studied sinnoh myths extensively, sinnoh library and Professor Rowan agrees with it, multiple NPC's and then carvings and statues around sinnoh... then Dialga appearing from nowhere, using it's powers to distort time in sinnoh, then residing in a blue shift of dimensional portal so player could gain access, it having Roar of Time, thing not even celebi has... then on PMD2, going crazy when Temporal Tower, the place to keep fime flowing properly collapses (note celebi doesn't go crazy), sending his lackeys to the past and reviving the death partner from future by bringing him back to the present, Dialga's own comments...

And just because something makes sense and something doesn't means logical stuff is approved while illogical isn't? Then pray tell why peach's umbrella is still working? >_>

And what did Kyogre & Groudon do that demonstrated their control over the water & landscapes? Certainly not just drizzle & drought, or something carved in the landscape when they duked it out or some NPC saying so.

And there you go, being more double standarding as it progresses. Where has it ever been contradicted that Ganondorf isn't transfixed by fishooks or that bottle reflective quality cannot reflect eneryg balls back? Maybe ganondorf just has a thing for fishrods. I mean, it's a thing that was programmed within the game just as pokemon rpg mechanics are, so it must be true. Even on Lttp you could reflect Agahnim's (ganon minion/possessed) energy balls back with a bug net. Or it was overlooked, kinda like BB vs protect, but fishrod debate out cause it's silly by your standards and protect debate in when it favors your argument but just as silly, m'rite?

But I guess that if pokemon battle mechanics are silly on ways, we could just ignore the sillyness, make it work with dex & story and move on no? =)

Pokemon story and the world unweils when you talk to NPC's, read game text and pokedex, travel around and get scenes and whatnot. I believe that's the text gamefreak themselves put in.

 

[PowerBomb]

Dialga shows this ability on 2 different games, 6 if you count versions. >_> And cyrus only states a fact which Dialga is near on demonstrating fully, but he's certainly not the only source.

6? What
The only three games I can think of where Dialga actually controls time are the explorer games. Dialga is not demonstrating the ability to distort/control time when you encounter it. Nothing suggests that is happening. The player certainly doesn't feel anything, despite Cyrus' insistence.

And just because something makes sense and something doesn't means logical stuff is approved while illogical isn't? Then pray tell why peach's umbrella is still working? >_>

Because Peach's Umbrella actually functions that way when you control her?

And what did Kyogre & Groudon do that demonstrated their control over the water & landscapes? Certainly not just drizzle & drought, or something carved in the landscape when they duked it out or some NPC saying so.

What, they brought down torrential rains and droughts? When you use Rain Dance/Sunny Day in a battle, the environment (out of battle) is not affected. When Kyogre/Groudon are running around, the weather goes ****ing nuts. It certainly doesn't contradict the entry where it says they brought in torrential rains/droughts. Hell, they're both sleeping when you find, something the Dex states (the part before it can be argued as well for when they battle each other again).

And there you go, being more double standarding as it progresses. Where has it ever been contradicted that Ganondorf isn't transfixed by fishooks or that bottle reflective quality cannot reflect eneryg balls back? Maybe ganondorf just has a thing for fishrods. I mean, it's a thing that was programmed within the game just as pokemon rpg mechanics are, so it must be true. Even on Lttp you could reflect Agahnim's (ganon minion/possessed) energy balls back with a bug net. Or it was overlooked, kinda like BB vs protect, but fishrod debate out cause it's silly by your standards and protect debate in when it favors your argument but just as silly, m'rite?

Are you seriously thinking that it should work that way? Fine, whatever.

EDIT: How is Brick Break not acting like you want it to act silly?

But I guess that if pokemon battle mechanics are silly on ways, we could just ignore the sillyness, make it work with dex & story and move on no? =)

They're only silly if you're a steadfast supporter of the Pokedex =P

Pokemon story and the world unweils when you talk to NPC's, read game text and pokedex, travel around and get scenes and whatnot. I believe that's the text gamefreak themselves put in.

So what? Should we disregard the entire battle system, which is like 40-60% of the gameplay? The battle system plays a part in everything, moreso than the story.

 

[Samochan]

6? What
The only three games I can think of where Dialga actually controls time are the explorer games. Dialga is not demonstrating the ability to distort/control time when you encounter it. Nothing suggests that is happening. The player certainly doesn't feel anything, despite Cyrus' insistence.

Well I wouldn't know what my video game character feels, but the whole sinnoh certainly got this lightshow coming from dialga. Though if dialga was just bark and no bite, it would be pretty pointless of cynthia and everyone to go against this organization and cyrus putting up so much money and effort to get what he wishes lol, then the lake guardians coming and stopping it from happening before it gets out of control and giratina not liking that cyrus is forcing those 2 deities to mess with time&space that'll mess his homeworld too, thus dragged cyrus with him.

Because Peach's Umbrella actually functions that way when you control her?

Well peach kinda needs to jut it to the ground, but it still somehow works (and bounces too) if you attack it with something. Is there any sense in a frail princess holding up a measily parasol with no known magical abilities against a heavy robot stomping on her? Or when she bounces off the ground, she's still invulnerable when she cannot even use the parasol while airborne and needs to ground it so the defence actually holds.

What, they brought down torrential rains and droughts? When you use Rain Dance/Sunny Day in a battle, the environment (out of battle) is not affected. When Kyogre/Groudon are running around, the weather goes ****ing nuts. It certainly doesn't contradict the entry where it says they brought in torrential rains/droughts. Hell, they're both sleeping when you find, something the Dex states (the part before it can be argued as well for when they battle each other again).

I was asking about the moving landscapes and waters part. If one part of the dex was proven, why would it make the rest canon then if you had yourself staten it doesn't make the dex canon if it was only proven partly? =)

Are you seriously thinking that it should work that way? Fine, whatever.

EDIT: How is Brick Break not acting like you want it to act silly?

It's kinda tough for brick break to break all barriers when protect is not programmed as such but as a dodge like detect is. Perhaps they were lazy in programming and added just different graphics lol (that's actually playsible rofl), but brick breaks destroyes other barriers just fine (minus barrier stat up ofc, but it's a stat up so it's kinda different from screens).

They're only silly if you're a steadfast supporter of the Pokedex =P

Pokemon battling mechanics are real good. ^^ Just not exacly what pokemon needs for this conversation. >.>

So what? Should we disregard the entire battle system, which is like 40-60% of the gameplay? The battle system plays a part in everything, moreso than the story.

I didn't say disregard, but use in conjuction. =) But being too literal is what we cannot do, heck it gets turned upside down because we have to remove the turn based factor from it already.

 

[PowerBomb]

Well I wouldn't know what my video game character feels, but the whole sinnoh certainly got this lightshow coming from dialga. Though if dialga was just bark and no bite, it would be pretty pointless of cynthia and everyone to go against this organization and cyrus putting up so much money and effort to get what he wishes lol, then the lake guardians coming and stopping it from happening before it gets out of control and giratina not liking that cyrus is forcing those 2 deities to mess with time&space that'll mess his homeworld too, thus dragged cyrus with him.

Wait, are we taking the Platinum one or D/P one?

Cyrus put effort in it because Dialga/Palkia can make a new galaxy. That's...primarily what he wanted. The whole 'time/space distortion' didn't actually happen (space distorted, but time...not so much).

Well peach kinda needs to jut it to the ground, but it still somehow works (and bounces too) if you attack it with something. Is there any sense in a frail princess holding up a measily parasol with no known magical abilities against a heavy robot stomping on her? Or when she bounces off the ground, she's still invulnerable when she cannot even use the parasol while airborne and needs to ground it so the defence actually holds.

Dunno, will leave for justaway12

I was asking about the moving landscapes and waters part. If one part of the dex was proven, why would it make the rest canon then if you had yourself staten it doesn't make the dex canon if it was only proven partly? =)

I never said that proved all of the entries, I said that it doesn't contradict the entry where the Dex states that Groudon/Kyogre brought down droughts and torrential rain, respectively.



I'm also starting to think that 'evade' is used, in this case, as a way to show protection. 'Evading damage' is really no different than 'protected from damage'.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I kinda find it hilarious a hedgehog/mechanical suit piece could be running at supersonic speeds even if the game doesn't prove it graphically or mechanically just because we're told he does,

Um, they are. Sonic unleashed for Sonic.
Metroid Prime for Samus (i think).

yet pidgeot/garchomp cannot in no instance be flying at mach 2 for example without people shouting it's faux since they don't do so on battles. Funnily enough, both could hardly do so within the space the battles occur in any case. <_<

Sonic is the only one increasing his speed to 2000 MPH near instantaneously.
Funny stuff

 

[justaway12]

Well peach kinda needs to jut it to the ground, but it still somehow works (and bounces too) if you attack it with something. Is there any sense in a frail princess holding up a measily parasol with no known magical abilities against a heavy robot stomping on her? Or when she bounces off the ground, she's still invulnerable when she cannot even use the parasol while airborne and needs to ground it so the defence actually holds.

She does show to have Magical powers, I showed you the video in Bowser's inside story, I showed you SMB.1 storyline, and Super Mario RPG powers, as well as a normal parasol also won't do anything Peach's parasols do.

And again Fire Bomb/Rock candy come out faster than PKMN.

I might read the rest later but I can't be bothered now.

 

[Samochan]

Wait, are we taking the Platinum one or D/P one?

Cyrus put effort in it because Dialga/Palkia can make a new galaxy. That's...primarily what he wanted. The whole 'time/space distortion' didn't actually happen (space distorted, but time...not so much).

Well I kinda talked bout both, as it's all still dpp.

But in diamond, there's no palkia to distort space and only dialga to distort time. :/ Why would space distort when dialga has no power over space and cyrus says time is distorting? <_> It's not like the distortions can't be of time as well, it's not that explict graphical show to deduce that, but we know dialga is doing it with it's power that is said to be control over time. And proven on occasions.

I never said that proved all of the entries, I said that it doesn't contradict the entry where the Dex states that Groudon/Kyogre brought down droughts and torrential rain, respectively.

Then why something like Dialga's powers that don't contradict are't true then? :/

Um, they are. Sonic unleashed for Sonic.
Metroid Prime for Samus (i think).

Nu-uh, samus doesn't have speed booster on prime games, only boost ball.

Sonic is the only one increasing his speed to 2000 MPH near instantaneously.
Funny stuff

Oh yea, ****, I forgot about the meters from 3D games. >_>

She does show to have Magical powers, I showed you the video in Bowser's inside story, I showed you SMB.1 storyline, and Super Mario RPG powers, as well as a normal parasol also won't do anything Peach's parasols do.

And again Fire Bomb/Rock candy come out faster than PKMN.

It still doesn't make sense though, that she specifically needs to jut the parasol to the ground and be unmobile in order to defend herself, but still keeps invulnerable when she gets sent off the ground. <_<

I know she herself has magical powers, but the only magical thing we've seen parasol do on paper mario is float her around and defend while on ground. It's controversal when she gets blown away by random attacks and still keeps defending, not like she has superstrenght or something. >_>

At least one or 2 pokes may start out in the open from the very beginning, as seen on HGSS. I believe it's been agreed on 2 pokemons at some point because of double battles (though not all 6). Dig takes even less time than embargo does, fly takes around 1< seconds. Besides if rock candy starts doing damage as soon as the animation starts (even when it doesn't), embargo and rest also do their effects as soon as the animation starts.

 

[PowerBomb]

Well I kinda talked bout both, as it's all still dpp.

But in diamond, there's no palkia to distort space and only dialga to distort time. :/ Why would space distort when dialga has no power over space and cyrus says time is distorting? <_> It's not like the distortions can't be of time as well, it's not that explict graphical show to deduce that, but we know dialga is doing it with it's power that is said to be control over time. And proven on occasions.

Proven when? Random books and statues? 'that is said' >_>
The only plausible thing emerging from that storyline scenario is that space has been modified as a galaxy has been created. Time plays no part in it, unless you want to count moving around and doing random stuff.

Then why something like Dialga's powers that don't contradict are't true then? :/

Because there isn't a display to show it's actually correct? PMD2 and Sky does a much better job of showing Dialga's mastery over time, but that Dialga just screws with the canonocity of the version games (lol canonocity).

 

[justaway12]

The fact her parasol actually floats her up in her air proves it isn't like the normal parasol and it's also shows that it's different.

And it would take long for him to realise, climb on a pokemons back and command the pokemon to fly.

 

[_clinton]

Or how about the fact that when pokes actually DO get an outside battle showtime, they prove what the pokedex has stated?

Hypno and Froslass have proven with in-game examples as well I might add...that certain parts of their pokedex entries are correct...so the fact that Gyarados, and a bunch of legendary pokes are hardly the only examples in the dex that are shown in game…even some basics have proof…and I wouldn’t **** with Hypno and Froslass because of the games showcase…

I mean…the pokemon games are just filled to the max with Nightmare Fuel…

Oh sorry, I didn't realize ANYTHING didn't include LAND.

It doesn't include land/inanimate things...if you check what Dusknoir's entry says it makes it pretty clear over what Dust lower form is actually able to absorb...

So you want us to basically nerf the movepool of every single Pokemon because it doesn't agree with the Dex?

No...just far out examples like a rattata lighting itself on fire and charging into the foe...or calling down a thunderbolt from the sky…

There's an explanation for those moves: They are learned either through breeding due to compatible egg groups or through Technical/Hidden Machines which are compatible with the Pokemon itself.

Yes...because the day care breeding system makes total sense...

Love how some things make eggs as well even though that doesn’t make sense…

 

[missingnomaster]

It doesn't include land/inanimate things...if you check what Dusknoir's entry says it makes it pretty clear over what Dustcops is actually able to absorb...

"DUSCLOPS absorbs anything, however large the object may be." Planets are objects of definite size, are they not?

Stop making stuff up. This is not a fan fiction thread.

 

[_clinton]

"DUSCLOPS absorbs anything, however large the object may be." Planets are objects of definite size, are they not?

Stop making stuff up. This is not a fan fiction thread.

Except Dusknoir is a higher form of Dusclops...and it clearly not able to eat the earth...it's just dealing with souls...

Oh and I'm hardly making up things...That picture in said early post can happen in said game...and clearly shows that the move pool system has some issues...

 

[missingnomaster]

Yay, you just admitted the Pokedex is wrong.

 

[REL38]

@Samo

Rock Candy is an attack.
Embargo is a "spell" (more or less)

Rock Candy consists of falling Stars that would hit the moment they appear.
Embargo has a ring revolve around the opponent and does its purpose once the animation finishes.

Just like how the Star Rod needs to go through the entire animation before Bowser is invincible.

An attack hits the moment it makes contact wherelse a "status" move like Embargo takes affect the moment the "spell" is over.


btw
Doesn't Peach have something preventing status effects?
According to move categories in Pokemon, Embargo is a "Status" move :/

 

[justaway12]

Yes she does, I was unaware that it was a status...

Embargo won't even effect her since she can guard it anyway.

 

[PowerBomb]

_clinton, it's a god **** video game. Things don't usually make sense in video games.

BTW, nearly every Pokemon has a movepool like that. So let's nerf every single Pokemon of a couple moves just because it doesn't make sense with reality!

Except Dusknoir is a higher form of Dusclops...and it clearly not able to eat the earth...it's just dealing with souls...

We're talking about Duskclops, not Dusknoir. Different Pokemon usually do different things, no matter how minuscule.

Picture doesn't show up btw

 

[Ganonsburg]

I am so confused as to what's being argued and who's on what side. All I know is that Pokemon is really, really screwed up, and the contradictions between the plot and the gameplay are making everyone yell at each other.

Could someone summarize?

 

[§leepy God]

♪ I'm confused how Peach beat Roy when she can't even act with him slicing her. Pokemon Trainer got this one. What example are we using Peach from anyways? †

 

[_clinton]

We're talking about Duskclops, not Dusknoir. Different Pokemon usually do different things, no matter how minuscule.

People...I'm not saying that Pikachu is Rattata...I'm saying that eventually Pokemon "grow up"

Duskclops becomes Dusknoir...and they learn the same move set as well for the most part (Dusknoir learns one move that Duskclops doesn't learn)

Picture doesn't show up btw

Hot Skitty on Wailord Action...that is all the picture shows...anyone with any common sense should know that a whale can't mate with a cat...but you can do it in the game...

I am so confused as to what's being argued and who's on what side. All I know is that Pokemon is really, really screwed up, and the contradictions between the plot and the gameplay are making everyone yell at each other.

Could someone summarize?

I'm saying that the move pool does a more ****ed up job with contradictions than what the pokedex does...in fact several things in the pokedex are actually shown in the games...

Where as things like move pools are clearly influenced by the game play mechs. than any dex entry...

 

[PowerBomb]

People...I'm not saying that Pikachu is Rattata...I'm saying that eventually Pokemon "grow up"

Duskclops becomes Dusknoir...and they learn the same move set as well for the most part (Dusknoir learns one move that Duskclops doesn't learn)

Except that you find Dusclops in the wild and Dusknoir NOT in the wild. Why? Dusclops only evolves by trading with a Reaper Cloth. Reason why there aren't any Dusknoir in the wild, maybe. Pokemon 'grow up'? So? Dusclops still absorbs everything. Whoops, there goes my planet Earth. GG Pokedex

Hot Skitty on Wailord Action...that is all the picture shows...anyone with any common sense should know that a whale can't mate with a cat...but you can do it in the game...

And common sense would let you know that these aren't whales nor cats, they are Pokemon, and they are in a video game, which does not follow the rules of reality. Otherwise, Ness and Lucas *gasp* do not get all of those PSI powers. And this wouldn't be true to their games anymore.

 

[_clinton]

Except that you find Dusclops in the wild and Dusknoir NOT in the wild. Why? Dusclops only evolves by trading with a Reaper Cloth. Reason why there aren't any Dusknoir in the wild, maybe. Pokemon 'grow up'? So? Dusclops still absorbs everything. Whoops, there goes my planet Earth. GG Pokedex

A lot of pokemon aren't found in the wild though...Pidgeot for example hasn't been found in the wild for each game...and in the 3rd generation games of R/S/E...you had to trade for it as well from those 1st gen remakes...

And for the 4th gen. there are no nesting grounds for wild Pidgey...they only show up on certain days from other regions...

Oh and again...the only things Dusclops is absorbing is stuff that has a soul...no matter the size...hell the thing it is based off of supports that...

BTW...this is some fun stuff:
http://paraquake.com/id10.html

Look up chochinobake...

And common sense would let you know that these aren't whales nor cats, they are Pokemon, and they are in a video game, which does not follow the rules of reality. Otherwise, Ness and Lucas *gasp* do not get all of those PSI powers. And this wouldn't be true to their games anymore.

The Pokemon world has been called "Earth"...along with Ness/Lucas setting that they are in...as in "our" earth

Really...I want to know how you guys can't accept this argument that there is a separation between the story (Absolute info given) and the game play (said stuff tries to be balanced)...when you all are willing to accept certain things from the Metroid series as just being a game story mech.

Actually adding to it...there is in game proof that pokemon have been used as food as well...

Actually another thing I would like to bring up and how all of the moves have more issues is with Pokémon Mystery Dungeon...that is a dungeon crawler...not an RPG...guess how the moves work in that game? Hell even the items are different in that game as well (and stats)...

 

[PowerBomb]

A lot of pokemon aren't found in the wild though...Pidgeot for example hasn't been found in the wild for each game...and in the 3rd generation games of R/S/E...you had to trade for it as well from those 1st gen remakes...

That's because Pidgey isn't found in Hoenn, but rather, in Kanto.

And for the 4th gen. there are no nesting grounds for wild Pidgey...they only show up on certain days from other regions...

So?

Oh and again...the only things Dusclops is absorbing is stuff that has a soul...no matter the size...hell the thing it is based off of supports that...
BTW...this is some fun stuff:
http://paraquake.com/id10.html
Look up chochinobake...

This is a fictional, video game thing we're talking about, which, in Dex canon terms, has been stated to do this:

DUSCLOPS absorbs anything, however large the object may be. This POKéMON hypnotizes its foe by waving its hands in a macabre manner and by bringing its single eye to bear. The hypnotized foe is made to do DUSCLOPS's bidding.

Its body is entirely hollow. When it opens its mouth, it sucks everything in as if it were a black hole.

Dusknoir might do different things, but IMO, these Dex entries makes it pretty clear how stupid the idea is.

The Pokemon world has been called "Earth"...along with Ness/Lucas setting that they are in...as in "our" earth

Really...I want to know how you guys can't accept this argument that there is a separation between the story (Absolute info given) and the game play (said stuff tries to be balanced)...when you all are willing to accept certain things from the Metroid series as just being a game story mech.

The story needs to be proven by the gameplay, otherwise we have hearsay and stuff that acts funky like the Dex. The is never a central part of the story anyway. It's a tertiary objective later in the game, after you become the league champ.

Actually another thing I would like to bring up and how all of the moves have more issues is with Pokémon Mystery Dungeon...that is a dungeon crawler...not an RPG...guess how the moves work in that game? Hell even the items are different in that game as well (and stats)...

I was the one who questioned if that game was canon to the main series and gave up after a while. Samochan believes it is canon or at least, the Mewtwo in that game to be the same one in Cerulean Cave.

 

[Samochan]

Yes she does, I was unaware that it was a status...

Embargo won't even effect her since she can guard it anyway.

Yea?

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Status_effect

Or maybe not. There are many status ailments, but embargo (seize) isn't one of them. No other attack also effects the trainers ability to use items on that pokemon.

Besides if we wanna nitpick, her accessories protect her from various statuses, but anti-item is not one of them, no matter how it's described to protect against all status ailments. It's only known to protect against certain ones that exists in the SMRPG universe. Kinda like how BB was argued to only break screens as shown, but not other barriers as told.

--

Powerbomb, wailord is 14,5 m in height and weights 398kg, while skitty is a measily 0,6m and weights 11 kilos. I don't see how mating these fellas could even be possible lol.

Note clops entry was retconned, that it can absorb anythign WHEN it opens it's mouth. =) It makes sense if he keeps his mouth shut, it won't absorb a thing. I've yet to see clops open it's mouth and you can safely walk him around on HGSS without getting absorbed into it lol.

 

[justaway12]

Fine, it isn't, there isn't a lot of difference.

 

[PowerBomb]

Powerbomb, wailord is 14,5 m in height and weights 398kg, while skitty is a measily 0,6m and weights 11 kilos. I don't see how mating these fellas could even be possible lol.

It's a children's game, Samo. And a video game. it's not really supposed to make sense. When people try to make sense out of a children's video game... >_>
Anyhoo, they're able to produce eggs because they are part of the Ground egg group, right?

Note clops entry was retconned, that it can absorb anythign WHEN it opens it's mouth. =) It makes sense if he keeps his mouth shut, it won't absorb a thing. I've yet to see clops open it's mouth and you can safely walk him around on HGSS without getting absorbed into it lol.

So? I catch a Duslcops: open yo mouth, fool

Bang, there goes our planet. He can still absorb everything. Not much of a difference. Still gives us a problem, especially since we have no idea how they eat.

Its body is hollow. It is said that those who look into its body are sucked into the void.

It seeks drifting will-of-the-wisps and sucks them into its empty body. What happens inside is a mystery.

So we got two things here: If you stare into its body, you are immediately sucked in. Not really specific though, so you can manipulate it by saying 'Oh, you stared into it, you are sucked in and lose' making PT cheap. Of course, this contradicts the gameplay. And... maybe it eats Will-of-the-wisps or something? Aside from Pokeblock's and Poffin's without opening its mouth?

Still, nothing in these entries says it doesn't suck up everything when it opens its mouth. It actually backs them up with the whole 'body is an empty void' which would let it suck up everything. Ugh, Dusclops is a menace.

EDIT: PT can also send out Shedinja on a suicide mission to turn its back to the opponent because of this, despite it having absolutely no evidence of happening:

SHEDINJA's hard body doesn't move - not even a twitch. In fact, its body appears to be merely a hollow shell. It is believed that this POKéMON will steal the spirit of anyone peering into its hollow body from its back.

Other 3rd gen dex entries just say it's a hollow shell in the back. And that Shedinja is entirely immobile. Lol, 4th gen entry says it again.

A discarded bug shell that came to life. Peering into the crack on its back is said to steal one's spirit.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Conversion from another country also plays a role for "not making sense".

 

[missingnomaster]

EDIT: PT can also send out Shedinja on a suicide mission to turn its back to the opponent because of this, despite it having absolutely no evidence of happening:



Other 3rd gen dex entries just say it's a hollow shell in the back. And that Shedinja is entirely immobile. Lol, 4th gen entry says it again.

Why send out Shedinja when Tyranitar is pretty much stronger than Ganondorf O_o

And of course we can't forget Regigigas. Lol continents.

 

[PowerBomb]

Why send out Shedinja when Tyranitar is pretty much stronger than Ganondorf O_o

And of course we can't forget Regigigas. Lol continents.

Lol Slow Start D:

What about Typhlosion?

TYPHLOSION obscures itself behind a shimmering heat haze that it creates using its intensely hot flames. This POKéMON creates blazing explosive blasts that burn everything to cinders.

 

[_clinton]

That's because Pidgey isn't found in Hoenn, but rather, in Kanto.

You missed my point it seems…I’m saying that there are plenty of pokemon that you can never find in said games easily…that are clear examples of them being younger forms of them…hell you couldn’t even find a free roaming Butterfree and Beedrill in the 1st games…

So there is clearly more reason behind not finding certain pokemon other then saying they aren’t “related” as you put it…because are you really going to try and tell me that the early forms of Butterfree aren’t just “younger” butterfree?

So?

So…don’t you see how some pokemon might not be around in the wild? It’s been clearly shown that the pokemon world is pretty large…far larger than what has been seen in the games so far…we’ve had like 4 areas for the 4 gens…but the pokedex hints that there is so much more to it (Cubone graveyard) and even certain pokemon games show it…Mystery Dungeon 1 for example…the things are living in their own section of the world that seems to be away from humanity…and even then…some pokemon are rare…

Hell some of them avoid humans as well…Mewtwo…who is clearly trying to avoid human contact (and pokemon contact as well it would seem)

This is a fictional, video game thing we're talking about, which, in Dex canon terms, has been stated to do this:

This fictional video game we are talking about is clearly using examples from other areas of fiction though…that do the same things said in the dex

But I’ll admit…the dex isn’t perfect
-Alakazam’s IQ is a clear example of “not doing the research” behind what IQ is and is instead going with the common misconception from society about the term
-Even the term with black holes is off…

Dusknoir might do different things, but IMO, these Dex entries makes it pretty clear how stupid the idea is.

Dusknoir doesn’t do different things…it is just an “older” Dusclops…if anything it does what Dusclops does and more…and I still can’t see why you are hating on the Dex when at least it is consistent with what it says for the most part for the pokemon canon…unlike the move pool…and stats…and type chart…
-Quick attack in Mystery Dungeon for example is just an attack that reaches two spaces away…Thunder shock does that as well…

It may have its issues (Way to Broad on a lot of things…plus some of the other things)…but I’ll take the Dex over a Rattata controlling the weather (So how come you think only the Dex is ****ed up again?)

The story needs to be proven by the gameplay, otherwise we have hearsay and stuff that acts funky like the Dex. The is never a central part of the story anyway. It's a tertiary objective later in the game, after you become the league champ.

You are aware that on your path to becoming league champ and after…several things about the Dex are proven right?
-Gyarados (Lake of Rage)
-Hypno (remake of 1st gens)
-Whatever pokemon are being talked about for the main game…
Hell…there are plenty of games out there that also prove the info talked about in the dex. (People being turned into pokemon for example…just look at Kadabra’s entry…and then look at Bill from the 1st game…or just MD)

Lol Slow Start D:

What about Typhlosion?

I think your issue with the dex is that you read into it too much and take it “too literally”…
Like how the term “invincibility” seems to be thrown around in this thread to the point where my eyes are starting to bleed whenever I see it being talked about…

BTW…am I the only one who notices that some of the more deadly pokemon are ones you can’t catch/only see from other trainers? It’s like they live away from people…

Really though…I still want to know why you are ok with all the BS that is in the Metroid series…but when a few things sound farfetch’d about the Pokedex…you just want to throw the whole close to 500 entries of it out…BTW…I like how you say pokemon is for kids…I’m pretty sure a good chunk of the concepts about the games…from last looking at the games…are aimed over the younger viewer’s head…but that is just me…

 

[Samochan]

Powerbomb needs to think outside the box imo.

If researchers believe in something, it doesn't neccesarily make it true. We have mythology and christianity and whatever we believe in too, but can't be exacly proven true scientifically.

Also sheddy's hard body may not move because it's just a shell of nincada, poor thing doesn't even have muscles. But it doesn't mean sheddy can't move that immobile body around the place cause it still lives somehow, you can still drag him with you and use attacks with it. =) Something or someone's body may be totally immobile, but certainly not unmobile. Some force is needed to move an immobile body and as sheddy has a life of it's own, floats, part ghost and pokemon, I see why not. Kinda like glass on a table that's immobile on it's own, but you can move it by grabbing it or having an earthquake shake it. Some revived spirit that inhabits the exoskeleton of nincada/exoskeleton gained a life on it's own, he even has the halo to prove it lol.

 

[warpd]

Shouldn't Red only have access to pokemon from his generation or is he allowed access to all of them?

 

[_clinton]

Shouldn't Red only have access to pokemon from his generation or is he allowed access to all of them?

IMO...Red is just the "representation" of a pokemon trainer...the game never says which one is for sure being played as...they just use the best example of one (like how Marth is being used...or Pikachu or any character for that matter...I wonder if I'm the only one who would like to do this thread between more than just 40 or so characters?)

Plus his game has been remade so even if he is...you are aware that he can gets his hands on any 3rd gen and 2nd gen poke...

 

[PowerBomb]

Powerbomb needs to think outside the box imo.

If researchers believe in something, it doesn't neccesarily make it true. We have mythology and christianity and whatever we believe in too, but can't be exacly proven true scientifically.

Also sheddy's hard body may not move because it's just a shell of nincada, poor thing doesn't even have muscles. But it doesn't mean sheddy can't move that immobile body around the place cause it still lives somehow, you can still drag him with you and use attacks with it. =) Something or someone's body may be totally immobile, but certainly not unmobile. Some force is needed to move an immobile body and as sheddy has a life of it's own, floats, part ghost and pokemon, I see why not. Kinda like glass on a table that's immobile on it's own, but you can move it by grabbing it or having an earthquake shake it. Some revived spirit that inhabits the exoskeleton of nincada/exoskeleton gained a life on it's own, he even has the halo to prove it lol.

What? I know Shedinja can move around by floating, but it can't move its... arms? Or whatever they are...

EDIT: Happy New Year. *yawns*

@_clinton: So a Dusknoir is really just an older Dusclops? >_>

Yeah, no. Sorry, but the Dex states that Dusclops can absorb everything. Dusclops is NOT Dusknoir. Dusknoir is something else; a different evolution (an optional one, actually... but evo's are usually like that). I don't care if you think that Dusknoir is an older version of a Dusclops. Dusclops still absorbs everything.

But I’ll admit…the dex isn’t perfect

You don't say?

Spoiler

I'm just being stupid, don't kill me

I think your issue with the dex is that you read into it too much and take it “too literally”…
Like how the term “invincibility” seems to be thrown around in this thread to the point where my eyes are starting to bleed whenever I see it being talked about…

You're really the only one who has a problem with it... ._.
Too literally? What? How should we take the Dex then? If we take it for what it is, than it is 'too literal'. If we don't, then more than a few entries are jacked up.

BTW…am I the only one who notices that some of the more deadly pokemon are ones you can’t catch/only see from other trainers? It’s like they live away from people…

Aron can topple a dumpster truck with its tackle. Now it's evo, Lairron (or however you spell it) is supposedly stronger. You'd think a child would stay away from that, considering its power, but no. Instead, they're in every other cave you travel to in Hoenn.

Spoiler

Kind of an exaggeration, they're in like...two, I think.

Really though…I still want to know why you are ok with all the BS that is in the Metroid series…but when a few things sound farfetch’d about the Pokedex…you just want to throw the whole close to 500 entries of it out…BTW…I like how you say pokemon is for kids…I’m pretty sure a good chunk of the concepts about the games…from last looking at the games…are aimed over the younger viewer’s head…but that is just me…

What BS in the Metroid series? You're kidding, right? Fine, whatever. Tell me something about Metroid series.

Spoiler

BTW, pun get

So should we throw out 250 entries and keep the 240 odd entries in? >_> Many entries are really...uh, weird. And hearsay.

 

[_clinton]

EDIT: Happy New Year. *yawns*

Happy New Year to you as well even if it’s late

Yeah, no. Sorry, but the Dex states that Dusclops can absorb everything. Dusclops is NOT Dusknoir. Dusknoir is something else; a different evolution (an optional one, actually... but evo's are usually like that). I don't care if you think that Dusknoir is an older version of a Dusclops. Dusclops still absorbs everything.

Dusknoir is something else to Dusclops just as Butterfree is something else to Metapod…

And again…the only things that Dusclops is absorbing really seems to be various spirits/prey…it doesn’t say jack about earth…but considering how you seem to think it that much…why don’t you tell me who would win…Palkia at full power or a Dusclops?

Plus I still think that black hole thing is a “nod” somewhat to a certain theoretical physicist who is very well known for his work in said area…including saying that we are dealing with black holes "in a way" all the time…but whatever

You're really the only one who has a problem with it...

Because there are several things that prove that they aren’t truly invincible with them…with Mario you’d better not fall down a hole…hell even when a foe gets a “power star” (as seen in Super Paper Mario) they don’t beat everything in one hit…

Samus I’ve talked about to death and back…and you guys still don’t get it even when foes in each of the games that are there can stop the speed booster/damage Samus while she is using it…but I haven’t talked about Sonic yet as much as I should IMO…

Sonic the Hedgehog 3 has more than just that Knuckles knocking Sonic out of Super Sonic form at the start of the game…the final boss for this zone can do it as well if he grabs you (rare to see btw):
http://sonic.wikia.com/wiki/Launch_Base_Zone

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwnTbJmS5I4
This shows that Super Sonic is just ****ing more powerful than Sonic is by far…he isn’t really invincible with these mechs.
He just has 5000 hp compared to 500 hp and does about 70 attacks for 700 damage each per move instead of 7 attacks for 60 damage each per move…which really isn’t much better that what he was said to be before…but at least we have some idea of a limit with it in actual number…

Too literally? What? How should we take the Dex then? If we take it for what it is, than it is 'too literal'. If we don't, then more than a few entries are jacked up.

Well for one thing…you read into the dex to the point where you spin what the makers have said about it…why not just say that Charizard can burn the whole earth to ashes in one time as well? After all…he can **** up anything with his fire…

Aron can topple a dumpster truck with its tackle. Now it's evo, Lairron (or however you spell it) is supposedly stronger. You'd think a child would stay away from that, considering its power, but no. Instead, they're in every other cave you travel to in Hoenn.

Spoiler

Kind of an exaggeration, they're in like...two, I think.

Funny…I guess that is why kids can’t go outside of town without protection huh? I still have to wonder why that entry is only said one time so far though…

Of course…Lairron is said to be at conflict with humans in regards to its food source as well…

What BS in the Metroid series?

Samus losing her power ups in most of the cases…we have accepted that as just a mech. because of the many issues about it…

So why can’t we do the same things with various pokemon and Ness/Lucas’ powers…when there are clear examples that they have some limits/made up on their stuff as well…a whale and a cat can’t make a baby together…and that Ness/Lucas are limited to sort of balance things out between their party members…

Oh and for a real example of what I think is true BS with the Metroid series…Phazon in general being used as a weapon by the 3rd game…but that is a different issue that doesn’t have anything to do with the debate and is just *****ing about the story for the games and how stupid they are sometimes…

So should we throw out 250 entries and keep the 240 odd entries in? >_>

I’m not saying we should throw out the entires…I'm saying just stop assuming things like a single pokemon that they don’t say it can do…things like everything/any are far too broad of a definition to accept IMO when it comes to talking about destroying a planet…but hey...why not assume even further along that line? I guess a single Dusclops is a universal threat according to what you are saying...

Plus like I said already…there are examples of bad entries that shouldn’t be taken 100% seriously…Alakazam’s 5000 IQ for example like I said is just a clear example of not doing the research on things before putting it in…

What they are trying to say with Alakazam is that he is "gifted" so that is what I would go with...if anything at all

Many entries are really...uh, weird. And hearsay.

I’m pretty sure there are more that make sense than those that don’t if you really want to get into this…unlike the move pools for pokemon…I have yet to see a rattata change the weather outside of “battle” in a cutscene for the game…plus I want to know how come Quick attack isn’t a 1st strike move in mystery dungeon still…or how about where is Pikachu’s low hp and defense in mystery dungeon?

There are at least several in game things showing off that several things are true in the pokedex…hell you can get a ton of them just by looking at what the creatures are based off of and how the dex winks at that area…Do you really think the dex is lying about what it says for Venusaur and its younger stages? (001 hints that as seed grows the toad under it grows, 002 points out that it will bloom soon, and 003 says that the smell is stronger after a rainstorm and that the thing is best during the summer time)

Really though...Dex>Mool pool, stats, and type chart...just saying...

 

[BSP]

Sonic the Hedgehog 3 has more than just that Knuckles knocking Sonic out of Super Sonic form at the start of the game…the final boss for this zone can do it as well if he grabs you (rare to see btw):
http://sonic.wikia.com/wiki/Launch_Base_Zone

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwnTbJmS5I4
This shows that Super Sonic is just ****ing more powerful than Sonic is by far…he isn’t really invincible with these mechs.
He just has 5000 hp compared to 500 hp and does about 70 attacks for 700 damage each per move instead of 7 attacks for 60 damage each per move…which really isn’t much better that what he was said to be before…but at least we have some idea of a limit with it in actual number…

I don't think Sonic 3 final boss hurting you should count, since Sonic 3 is the same game where you could skip entire parts of levels just by ducking (point: There were a lot of glitches in that game, it was rushed) if you had to go downwards. The same boss can't hurt Super Knuckles that way either (using the same energy as Super Sonic). And if you used the ducking glitch to access knuckles' part of ice cap zone, a plain ice ball could knock you out of SS. I think those were glitches.

That fight scene you showed. The final boss can hurt S. Sonic because he's using chaos energy as well. Since Sonic is using chaos energy as SS, it's logical that anyone else using the same energy (Chaos emerald energy) should be able to do some damage to him. Abd he would appear weaker since his foe has all the power he just got.

 

[Samochan]

The dex is somewhat an encyclopedia of animals equivalents of pokeworld not quite thoroughly researched yet, that's why some dex entries use hearsay and mythology as the source of things and why you're leaving on this adventure to collect all pokemons for teh professors. But it's not like the hearsays are quite wrong either, even the first know pokemon Arceus has documents and information of it preserved to present day and you can clearly see on HGSS it's not a hoax when he creates a new life deity pokemon out of nothingness. In our modern world, only giving birth, multiplying or God may create new life to this world and Arceus clearly does the latter. Dex also clearly says what is hearsay and what is mostly some urban legend, but the information given by the text is still from somewhere and true. People believe in dialga's and palkia's powers, lake guardians and all, not like the professors are the only people researching or their hearsays, but it's the common folk that uses, trains, cares, sees and breeds these pokemon create these hearsays. Even if such information is passed down orally and it's most likely exaggerated or mangled a bit on the way, in background there is always some truth in these beliefs, otherwise people wouldn't start believeing in such things.

Take alakazam for example. It could be that kazam's IQ is well past 5,000 as he's a pokemon, pokemon do not seemingly have any limits. Or some comparable IQ number is used to depict it's astounding psychic capabilities, it's ever growing brain, accurate memory of everything happenign around it, high intelligence and capability of outperforming a supercomputer. The IQ number might not be the accurate one here, but kazam's abilities are true. What if someone actually tested his IQ? If Kazam can recall everything, highly intelligent and capable of outperforming a supercomputer, why wouldn't the test scores he gets be ridiculously high, way outside human norm? He's a pokemon, most likely they'd have quite different tests than humans, but the IQ tests I've personally done are all logic tests, which Kazam would ace in minutes and get bored for it being no challenge to it lol. No human could keep up with supercomputer if it's calculating things. Then we have chess computers etc.