Smash and Coffee - June 7th Winona Lake, IN

[Dastrn]

There's construction that is blocking the main way mapquest gives directions to our venue, so I'm going to give you the detour directions.

If you are coming from the West, mapquest will probably tell you to turn Right on 250E and then Right on Wooster Road. Instead of that, you need to look for Center Street about a mile before you would have turned onto 250E. You will see an Applebees on your Right and a Golden Corral on your left. That's how you'll know it's Center Street. From there, go through one traffic light and turn left at the next light, which is Argonne Road. From there, go down the hill, under the train tracks, and turn Left at the first light you come to (the only light on that road). That road is Winona Avenue. You will see Winona Lake in front of you (562 acres of wakeboarding bliss), and some bushes that spell out Winona. After turning left there, go to the first stop sign and turn Left onto Wooster Road. The venue is called New Horizon. It's about a mile down on your Right. You will pass Grace College and then you will see a black sign on the right side of the road. The venue is up on the hill. The biggest building on the property is where we are playing.

If you are coming from the East (cincinatti crew and ft wayne...) go past 250E and turn left onto Center Street. Read the above paragraph for the rest of the directions.

Also, bring wii's if you can. I've only got 2 wii's set up, but i have a few extra tv's. It'd be sweet if 1 or 2 of you could also bring a TV. That would mean we can get through brackets quicker, which means more time for friendlies, and more MM's for you to take all my one dollar bills. (i prefer dumping them on smash kids instead of strippers...makes my wife slightly less angry about me going through so much cash...)

 

[D_B_S]

Michigan WE SHOULD GO TO THIS!!!

>_< I WILL TIP IN 4 Gas money if i can roll

SInce it aint no FC.

 

[Blood_Hawk]

I'm totally confirmed for this now. Riding down with Kish^2 since I got off of work.

Get ready, cause Iggles and I are takin' the teamsies.

 

[Kyari]

Good news, Rook is reconfirmed! I almost actually lost Sofaking 372 in the process of losing Rook, but he made it so Sofaking will as well :D

 

[Spazmodik]

Well, we're definitely goin.

 

[Brahma]

We're on our way!

 

[BananaHammock]

I'm on mah way! I hope everybody remembered their Pokemans and Magic Curds!! Oh yeah...and GC controllers...I guess

 

[smash64]

**** wish i could go oh well maybe next time

 

[KishSquared]

Woo, this was fun times! Dastrn can post full results, but I know as much as:

Singles
1. Overswarm
2. Blood Hawk
3. Ignatius
4. Mendoza
5. Kel
5. KISHSQUARED

Doubles (I can't remember this as well)
1. Tink and Big C
2. Mendoza and Zjiin
3. Overswarm and Kel
4. Ignatius and Blood Hawk

I hope I got the doubles right (though Tink and Big C won for sure). I know Singles is accurate though. It was a blast!

 

[B-Run]

4th in teams was B-Run and Jump20X6, not iggy and bloodhawk.

I'll post a results thread tomorrow when I'm less dead.

 

[Kyari]

Great tournament! Lol. Anyone else home yet?

 

[Zjiin]

That drive home sucked.

 

[Kel]

Just got home. Thanks again for hosting, Dast.
!) OS (All ROB)
2) BloodHawk (All Lucario)
3) Iggy (All Metaknight)
4) Mendoza (All Lucario)
5) Kel ( Metaknight and Fox mix)
5) Kishsquared (All bowser)
7) Joshu (All Dedede)
7) Tink (All Wario [I'm pretty sure])

haha, way to screw up the potential tier list, MW!

 

[Needle of Juntah]

uhh tink?

lemme share some vids with you guys

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQHHSWbTrWU

and i got like 7th at the tourney cause i was playing like crap that day cause my neck was kinked up from sleeping on a ***** luv seat

Anyways tink we gotta talk

 

[Needle of Juntah]

also glad to see the ship participating
and doing well AWSOME iggy

OMG i clicked the edit button


UFORTUNALTY, my car broke down the day before this so thats why i didnt make it sorry east coast guys i hope you had fun

 

[Kyari]

Ok, time for some shoutouts.

DastrnMacro: Thanks again for hosting a great tourney! I love going to these and I can't wait for the next one. Hopefully you'll be switched over to GCN controllers by then, haha.
Jump20X6 & B-Run: You guys are crazy wiimote players, I honestly was caught off-guard in the teams matches and I guess we got a tad overconfident due to this fact. I figured if some group of players were going to be good with the wiimote that it would have to be EC lol. I think the wiimotes have some serious DI issues though, might wanna look into that.
KishSquared: Nice meeting you again after so long. Hopefully we'll come in contact again sooner rather than later. And good placing last night! You have some balls going Bowser, but you do great, I like it.
Joshu: Never really got to play you, but you seem to have lots of fun playing Smash as always and I really enjoy the atmosphere your attitude brings. See you next time maybe?
Ignatius: I hate you. I think I said that after FoB3 too. You always **** me harder than anyone else present whenever we play in a tournament, ****it! My G&W hasn't even been played for almost 2 months, so it looked terrible compared to yours. Hopefully next time around I'll be more prepared for it.
Zjiin: Never got to play you when I was there, but I heard my buddy Sofa got you for me haha. Hopefully we'll play again sometime, don't quit!
Overswarm: I always feel like I learn something whenever I play you. You're really knowledgeable on counterpicks and I guess that's something I need to work on. But I have to clarify; if I had known about the laser going through the pole I would have simply gone Castle Siege or Mario Circuit against you. My original plan was to camp the center, which would have otherwise worked out great, trust me . Hopefully we'll play more next time we meet, I really enjoy our matches.
Xiivi: Glad you could make it, didn't really see how you did in singles but hopefully this was a good learning experience for you.
Tink: I'm kinda disappointed with my performance against you in our pools set, I feel like I could have done better but no johns. I like our matches though, hopefully we'll play again.
Kel: Thanks for the compliment on my Link game ^-^ it makes me feel warm inside to know I can compete with him. Check your PM's.
Brahma: Were you the DK I played against? Lol, you might wanna bring a Pikachu counter to your next tourney. Maybe that tourney will have me there so I can play against said counter
Swoops: Ganondorf takes so much patience to use, I think he needs a Pikachu counter too... our buddy Jekyll uses Luigi on me now instead of Ganondorf and does pretty well, but I dunno. Hope to play you in the future!
BigC: I never played you in singles but I wanted to show your Snake who's boss in friendlies I can't believe we pulled a comeback in our team's set, it felt so good to **** Snake so bad :D. I wish you'd be a little more enthusiastic about the game (in singles, anyway), but I guess Brawl isn't for everyone. Oh well, nice meeting you and hope to see you around in the future
Kirkq: Man, I felt like **** after losing to you on Mario Circuit, but I guess I should have stuck with G&W on that counterpick, would have probably gotten the third KO a lot faster (aka before you took it back). Nice ROB though, I'm sure that set won't be our last
Rat (aka JesusOmega): Your Pikachu is alright, I personally don't think you need the QAC as much as you seem to want it, as its effectiveness is most present when people don't expect it. Keep up the enthusiasm for Brawl and hopefully we'll play each other in another tourney.

I think I got everyone, at least everyone whose names I can remember. Our crew left before the tournament was over (how many people waited? lol) because I have work today and needed to get some sleep, but I was very happy with turnout this time around and hopefully next time will be even bigger! The only thing I regret is that I wish I had gotten in more singles friendlies, and maybe more money matches.

Hope to see you all next time!

 

[M3D]

Good clux B-Run and Jump!! Fourth in teams is solid.

Anyone get some good vids?

EDIT: Also, <3 Mendoza and Bloodhawk for repping Lucario!

 

[KishSquared]

I knew I was wrong about teams, sorry for getting that wrong Brun!

Also, an OS vs Joshu no-looking $1 money match must become a staple at all MW tournies.

 

[BananaHammock]

Fun times. BigC thanks for bringing Melee. Tink thanks for the epic Wario ditto in pools. Hey OS, Get that stupid Luigi's mansion match up soon. I'm sure you know which one I'm talking about. Nice job to everybody who did well.

 

[BIG C]

Dood brawl teams was too good. who knew the key to victory was to roll around with snake and ftilt. man this game is soooooooo goood

 

[Zankoku]

lol, what a great start. ROB's got 8 points for the summer 2008 list already.

 

[Zjiin]

Imho

This tournament was filled with so many bad levels, and people over using them. Every second match I played was pretty much at a ridiculous stage that people only picked to get an advantage over someone who beat them the first round. Every frickin' setup at one point was some johntastic level. I really don't see how people think they can balance their lack of ability to win on neutrals (neutral lists which will probably never change) with a slight chance of winning on a stupid stage, just to get taken back to another neutral for another loss. Practice playing on neutrals if you want to get better at this game! Dragging the game out to the third match just wastes everyone's time and energy.

Mario Circit, Hanenbow, Great Sea, Onett, BoE, Brinstar, Green Hill Zone etc, etc... I'm not trying to compare the two games too much, but did anyone see any top Melee pros rely on stupid stages to win? Sure there might have been one or two, but the absolute top players learned to FIGHT, not to counterpick. Seriously, let's not turn MW into the CP'ing joke again.

Please don't turnt his thread into a stage discussion list, i'm just ranting.

[note: i did not lose to any of those garbage levels, but that doesn't mean they should be on for tournament play]

 

[Dastrn]

Results thread posted.

Help me out with characters used for the people I didn't see/remember.

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=174673

 

[Dastrn]

This tournament was filled with so many bad levels, and people over using them. Every second match I played was pretty much at a ridiculous stage that people only picked to get an advantage over someone who beat them the first round. Every frickin' setup at one point was some johntastic level. I really don't see how people think they can balance their lack of ability to win on neutrals (neutral lists which will probably never change) with a slight chance of winning on a stupid stage, just to get taken back to another neutral for another loss. Practice playing on neutrals if you want to get better at this game! Dragging the game out to the third match just wastes everyone's time and energy.

Mario Circit, Hanenbow, Great Sea, Onett, BoE, Brinstar, Green Hill Zone etc, etc... I'm not trying to compare the two games too much, but did anyone see any top Melee pros rely on stupid stages to win? Sure there might have been one or two, but the absolute top players learned to FIGHT, not to counterpick. Seriously, let's not turn MW into the CP'ing joke again.

Please don't turnt his thread into a stage discussion list, i'm just ranting.

[note: i did not lose to any of those garbage levels, but that doesn't mean they should be on for tournament play]

I'd say "QQ practice on norfair more"....

But i like you so i won't say that...

And ultimately, if a person can only win on their own counterpick stage, then they can't win a set anyways, as you can just pick back to Smashville and BF with snake and **** them there. So you're right that they need to learn to win on neutrals as well.

But still, you should pick up Metaknight just to play in game 2 on Norfair, to save the hassle of losing there and having to go back to BF with Snake.

 

[BIG C]

that's the point ppl are trying to make there shouldn't be a time that you HAVE to switch characters to win in a tourny it's just dumb it's why pipes and onett were banned in melee pretty much whenever someone picked one of those stages it would more than likely be a fox ditto. cuz fox was amazing at those levels

 

[Zjiin]

But still, you should pick up Metaknight just to play in game 2 on Norfair, to save the hassle of losing there and having to go back to BF with Snake.

Heh, or I can do what I did a couple of times in the tourney, and just stay Snake and win there.

 

[Dastrn]

that works too

 

[Overswarm]

This tournament was toooooooooo good. Good stuff to everyone. I'll have my vids up later... need to shower first.

Joshu vs. OS, $1 MM, both looking away from the TV: This is happening at every tournament. Joshu chose pirate ship for this one... I choose Onett for the next one. This will be interesting :D

Everyone here did really well, I'm surprised to see so many people playing hte same characters so radically different! Kirkq, you definitely need to start going to tournaments and practicing, you've gotta learn those other matchups! Also, you need to $5 MM me

I'm pretty sure the devil helped me win. It wasn't God; God just claps you on the back and says "I knew you could do it all along". The Devil messes with stuff. Joshu had me beat on Luigi's mansion, and then I go super saiyan for about 10 seconds, and then I turn into something that runs away a lot and stalls off the side until Joshu has to run after me and kills himself. Then Bloodhawk had me beaten in the WB on Frigate Orpheon until he jumps forward and starts charging his neutral B and at JUST THE RIGHT SECOND the platform flies up, he falls, has to air dodge, but there is no ledge for him to up+b to. Could you have stuck to the wall there, bloodhawk?


I have to say, I love this venue. It's one of my favorites of all time, for sure. This tournament was run excellently! I'm really excited about not losing an entire set this tournament... first time I didn't have to Seabiscuit my way from the loser's bracket and win two grueling sets of 5.

This tournament was filled with so many bad levels, and people over using them. Every second match I played was pretty much at a ridiculous stage that people only picked to get an advantage over someone who beat them the first round. Every frickin' setup at one point was some johntastic level. I really don't see how people think they can balance their lack of ability to win on neutrals (neutral lists which will probably never change) with a slight chance of winning on a stupid stage, just to get taken back to another neutral for another loss. Practice playing on neutrals if you want to get better at this game! Dragging the game out to the third match just wastes everyone's time and energy.

Mario Circit, Hanenbow, Great Sea, Onett, BoE, Brinstar, Green Hill Zone etc, etc... I'm not trying to compare the two games too much, but did anyone see any top Melee pros rely on stupid stages to win? Sure there might have been one or two, but the absolute top players learned to FIGHT, not to counterpick. Seriously, let's not turn MW into the CP'ing joke again.

Please don't turnt his thread into a stage discussion list, i'm just ranting.

[note: i did not lose to any of those garbage levels, but that doesn't mean they should be on for tournament play]

Yeah, it's not like the top 3 players in this tournament are proficient at picking and playing on counterpicks or anything.


Zjinn, the reason the top Melee pros didn't play on "crazy" counterpicks is because they weren't an advantage. Are you trying to tell me that Mew2King wouldn't have picked Green Greens if it gave him a 100% chance to win?

You need to learn to play on these stages, and they all did. They learned right away what needed to change in their playstyle, and these counterpicks didn't work. I took certain stages to the very edge of their effectiveness and still only had a slight advantage.

I played Husband at a SMYM and lost the first game on fountain of dreams by one stock. The game could have easily gone another way, but he was clutch and pulled through. I chose Green Greens, as was my strategy against Marth at the time. Husband three stocked me in a four stock match on my counterpick, because he had been taken to Green Greens so many times before. He knew the stage like the back of his hand.


But even though most stages weren't chosen because of this, you still saw a lot of aggressive counterpicks at high level play. Brinstar was a staple for Jiggs as well as Bum's DK. Jungle Japes was picked constantly. Pokéfloats has been seen multiple times, people picked it and rainbow cruise against the Ice Climbers all day. Mute City was the stage banned against Peach players many a time, and before Onett was banned, every Fox picked it at every set.

People play to win in tournaments. They don't play to fit their opponent's definition of "fun", and they're going to do their best to make you change characters. One of Snake's (one of Snake's only, I might add) disadvantages is that he doesn't do well on stages that aren't flat and unobtrusive. He can't approach in the air very well at all, his grenades are very limited, his nikita is slow, and he needs to space his f-tilt at all times. If you're playing Snake, people will pick stages that accent his weaknesses. Get used to it!

Learn the tricks of the stage. Snake, on Norfair, can grab an edge, drop down, jump, up-air, and grab the ledge of another platform. He can do this all the way up and down. He can also lay mines on the area where the "safe zones" appear, and once your enemy is inside it, he can set it off and hit them.

Or, you can get a secondary

johns

Yeah yeah, whatever. =P

 

[Doctor X]

Good tournament. Great venue. I wish I could have done better, but what can I say... Scarecrow really got his **** together near the end of that set. Also, I wish I would have teamed with Tink like I was asked originally. Seriously.

Mario Circit, Hanenbow, Great Sea, Onett, BoE, Brinstar, Green Hill Zone etc, etc... I'm not trying to compare the two games too much, but did anyone see any top Melee pros rely on stupid stages to win? Sure there might have been one or two, but the absolute top players learned to FIGHT, not to counterpick. Seriously, let's not turn MW into the CP'ing joke again.

The top players often counterpicked "neutral" stages because, in high-tier character matchups, these provided some pretty massive advantages, not because of some scrubby sense of "honor" or some arbitrary definition of what counts as "skill" and what doesn't. M2K, for example, would pick FD against Foxes because, for any decent Marth against a Fox of literally any level, 1-grab = 1 stock on FD unless the Marth ****s it up . If other stages provided matchups this lopsided and escaped stage bans, I guarantee you people would choose them instead.

Counterpicking is part of the tourney scene because knowledge of the game's intricacies-- including stages-- should be a factor. If you know the game just as well as the guy you're fighting, then the match still comes down to playing skill. If not, well... who says you deserve to win?

Please don't turnt his thread into a stage discussion list, i'm just ranting.

Rant or no, thread derailment or no... People will feel the need to call you out when you say something so woefully misinformed.

 

[BIG C]

i've said it once and i will say it again janky stages are janky the point of fair tourny play is there should never be a moment where the stage either a) does more work than the player who wins or b) there is never a moment where you have to change characters for a stage because your character is so disadvantaged that you have to.

I mean just look at all other fighting games stages the majority used are often always the same formula with different backgrounds. a flat equal playing field a stage where most characters are at the exact same advantage to win. THIS is what COMPETITIVE play should be and I don't understand why people don't get this. the minor advantages/disadvantages with the neutrals aren't that bad and it is why they are considered neutral. But, in reality the stages should follow the same form throughout the problem is they don't and create larger advantages than what should be on the playing field.

the only advantage in the other games is wall combo's and stages with walls and the person with the better wall combo's has the advantage. the point is each player should be tested at an equal level to see whose skill reigns supreme not whose stage skills/choices reign supreme.

 

[Blood_Hawk]

This tournament was toooooooooo good. Good stuff to Then Bloodhawk had me beaten in the WB on Frigate Orpheon until he jumps forward and starts charging his neutral B and at JUST THE RIGHT SECOND the platform flies up, he falls, has to air dodge, but there is no ledge for him to up+b to. Could you have stuck to the wall there, bloodhawk?

I'd have to check the vid, but I am pretty sure I tried to curve into the wall but was too far below the stage to get a successful wall cling. I'm pretty positive I aimed for the wall though.

Microscopic openings FTL..... X_x

Also, <3 Mendoza and Bloodhawk for repping Lucario!

Lucario, more like 1337cario, mirite.

 

[Doctor X]

i've said it once and i will say it again janky stages are janky the point of fair tourny play is there should never be a moment where the stage either a) does more work than the player who wins or b) there is never a moment where you have to change characters for a stage because your character is so disadvantaged that you have to.

I agree with A. Thankfully these stages are usually banned entirely. B, however... well, it gets you to learn more than just one character, which is not necessarily a bad thing. Plus, because Brawl is new, we don't really know what these "A" and "B" stages are. When counterpicks start to get really out of control and are actually deciding placements in tournaments... that's when we'll know. Until then, it's just johns.

I mean just look at all other fighting games stages the majority used are often always the same formula with different backgrounds. a flat equal playing field a stage where most characters are at the exact same advantage to win. THIS is what COMPETITIVE play should be and I don't understand why people don't get this. the minor advantages/disadvantages with the neutrals aren't that bad and it is why they are considered neutral. But, in reality the stages should follow the same form throughout the problem is they don't and create larger advantages than what should be on the playing field.

Smash is different. Sometimes a "flat equal playing field" is just better for some characters than for others, and even those traditional fighters have some pretty heavily unbalanced character matchups that may have been mitigated if players were able to use stages to do so.

 

[Zjiin]

You need to learn to play on these stages, and they all did. They learned right away what needed to change in their playstyle, and these counterpicks didn't work. I took certain stages to the very edge of their effectiveness and still only had a slight advantage.

And what I'm saying is that these people need to learn to play their character before they understand the full potential of stage benefits for each situation. I saw so many people playing so poorly and instead of figuring out what they were doing wrong, they decided to just CP a dumb stage and lose again.

Counterpicking is part of the tourney scene because knowledge of the game's intricacies-- including stages-- should be a factor. If you know the game just as well as the guy you're fighting, then the match still comes down to playing skill. If not, well... who says you deserve to win?

Rant or no, thread derailment or no... People will feel the need to call you out when you say something so woefully misinformed.

This the exact same thinking that got the MW such a bad rap before, and I'm not going to sit back and watch it again. Go ahead, have all your tourneys with these stages on, but in National Tournaments (for those of us who are serious about playing competitively) they're not going to have all this junk on, and this whole region will just be a laughing stock once again. We're all just too busy working down the timing of stage hazzards and how some characters get gimped on CPs instead of knowing your character inside and out. If that's what you want, go nuts, but I'm sure going to be more selective of what tournaments i do and don't atttend. (as will many people i talked to recently)

=========================================================
This whole debate is hardly worth fighting because all these people who are new to the competitve scene, don't understand what this leads to, and nautrally agree with OS's stance of stage list selections. I had waaaaaaay more fun losing to Kel in our $MM, than i had beating the hell out of people on their own stupid counterpicks. Again, I know how to play on most of these stages, so that's not the problem. The problem is that they should never be here in the first place.

 

[BIG C]

yea well like character matchups are different than having to change characters cuz of a stage. the flat playing field isnt a big enough advantage over other characters to justify the stages that were on. that is enough to justify like norfair and corneria but not most of em like Green Hill Zone I'm all for variety but why not look for variety within the same formula.

such as the "neutral 6" plus delfino, frigate, and halberd all basically follow the same form for the stages and have minimal hazards thus making them very tourny worthy imo. you could use pirate ship in this castle siege, brinstar and green greens. thats enough of variety and for ppl to be able to use counterpicks. but alot of those stages were ridic.

 

[Zjiin]

Just to add, I did enjoy and appreciate Dastrn for hosting this, and this rant is not intended to offend the hosts.

 

[BIG C]

^ same .

 

[Joshu]

I like how no one minds having to learn multiple characters to deal with character vs character matchups, but when a stage is involved OHMYGOD CONTREVERSY
HEAVEN FORBID YOU HAVE TO LEARN HOW TO PLAY ON A BOAT
BOATS WITH CANNONBALLS YOU CAN SEE COMING LITERALLY A NAUTICAL MILE AWAY AREN'T COMPETITIVE JEEZ GUYS COME ON

 

[BIG C]

well i don't mind character matchups being the reason to learn a different character because if it has to be done, it has to be don,e none of the characters are broken enough to ban. why should I have to go a different character for something as miniscule as a stage.

it's not like in a boxing game they have a big *** boxing glove that comes out of nowhere and does massive damage to you leading to a KO. but if you are trying to fight butterbean with oscar de la hoya you would just be dumb.

 

[Xiivi]

I beat Zjiin in our pools set with characters I don't even play thanks to counterpick stages. I'm pretty sure he knew the stages better than I did too.

That's all I really have to say about this argument.

Zjiin your Snake is great.

 

[Overswarm]

Zjinn, stages aren't banned because someone says "wow, that's gay" or "that's not fun". They are banned because they prove to be too influential in tournaments, like Onett for Melee. It was around forever, then Ken used it against Neo and, even though it was a close game, people suddenly realized what a good stage this was for Fox. Despite other characters doing well on it, this became a staple to Fox play. Walk-off edges AND walls AND a low ceiling AND several platforms close to the top you could catch your opponent on made this stage 222good for Fox. Foxes were picking this stage over and over again, and winning, almost regardless of their opponent's skill level. At this point it was banned, because it literally was too good. It had nothing to do with it not fitting the "standard formula" or it "not being fun".

I have fun at tournaments, but tournaments aren't meant for fun. They're meant for competition first; the fun is a secondary thing. If you just want fun and don't care about competition, go to smashfests instead of tournaments.

Big C is probably the only person that I can talk to about this stuff without being confused. Big C isn't bad, plays doubles because he thinks it is okay, doesn't play singles simply because he doesn't like it (not because it isn't competitive), and says he enjoys playing Brawl for fun but not in tournament play because that's when "the jankiness and camping comes out".

It doesn't really matter anyway. The Back Room is full of the most respectable TOs, and we all debate these things pretty intently, and things will end up being the most competitive. I happen to love Shadow Moses as a stage, but I can understand why it should be off. If you happen to hate certain stages, why can't you understand why they should be on?