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Smash and Coffee - June 7th Winona Lake, IN

Brahma

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 13, 2002
Messages
455
Location
South Bend, Indiana
I'm glad you are having fun struggling to find usefulness in ridiculous levels, but you seem to be one of the only ones who are justifying this junk. (Aside from online noob tourneys) I somehow doubt you are one of the few geniuses who are "seeing the truth." Just play the game as neutral as we can make it, and maybe you'll get better at your character, instead of getting better at situations.

What's the problem with getting better at different situations? Being able to adapt is part of what makes a player good. Part of the problem with SWF is that a lot of stages that aren't immediately understood or largely popular get banned. People talk about Hanenbow and how it's unfair because one of the ledges isn't grabbable or other issues that become irrelevant once people begin to use the stages and figure ways around the issues. SWF is so quick to judge and ban. Anyone remember back in the early Melee days, when people thought Sheik's Ftilt was broken, until people realized that you could DI or CC it?

You argue for "neutral" stages, but there really aren't any truly "neutral" stages. There are always characters that have advantages or disadvantages, however slight they may be, even on "neutral" stages like Battlefield, Smashville, and FD. Look at FD, Falco automatically gains a small advantage there because he can run away and SHDL spam, without the opponent being able to use platforms to aid an approach, alot of other projectile characters gain the same advantage. How different is this from BoE, really? On Smashville, Snake can use the moving platform to set up C4, mine, and grenades as a moveable trap to help his pressure game. On Battlefield, Ganon's >B on the ground lands certain characters on the platforms, where they can easily be tech trapped with aerials, or if they shield they get dropped to the ground for a followup hit. On Yoshi's Story Ganon can't always autocancel Dair because of the uneven terrain, which hurts his game a lot, there are other characters whose autocancels are affecter there too. On Delfino, a lot of characters with precision recoveries have a tough time grabbing the edge since there's no solid wall, and some characters like DK are much easier to edgehog since if there is someone on the edge, they can't just keep pressing against the wall until the invincibility frames wear off, he'll just go right under the stage. There are also walls for infinites and walkoff edges here. Lylat benefits characters like Pikachu because of the low platforms, making platform tech traps possible.

The neutral stages aren't all that neutral really. These are just a few examples off the top of my head, there are a lot of other factors too. My point being that you will never have a truly neutral stage, unless both opponents have to use the same character.

Also, how many times, if any, have their been problems with these stages at tournaments for the reasons mentioned (camping, etc.)? It seems like you're looking at a lot of things in theory, that may not apply all that much in practice. If you have vids or other proof of stages being used to camp without the opponent being able to retaliate, then by all means post them up. But I think we should keep a lot of stages innocent until proven guilty.
 

Overswarm

is laughing at you
Joined
May 4, 2005
Messages
21,181
Brahma, you're alright.


I thought I'd add... your list isn't complete for the nintendo's 1980 universe.

"the Nintendo Entertainment System version of Metal Gear came to North America in June 1988 (published by Konami's Ultra Games division), followed by PAL version in March 1989. Konami produced this version without Kojima's direct involvement and several changes were made as a result. Kojima has been vocal about his disappointment at the quality of the NES version[4], going as far to regard the game as "complete garbage".[5]"

But still on the NES!
 

Scarecrow

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jul 6, 2006
Messages
7
I'm Overswarms lil bro and i will be comming.

Also i need a Teamate if anyone is interested--- I play Metaknight.
 

Dastrn

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Jul 16, 2005
Messages
9,472
Location
Indiana
I'm Overswarms lil bro and i will be comming.

Also i need a Teamate if anyone is interested--- I play Metaknight.
i'll team with you scarecrow. i was planning on sitting out of teams but this will be more fun.


regarding metal gear in the 80s tourney, if i remember correctly, snake wasn't in that game.
 

Overswarm

is laughing at you
Joined
May 4, 2005
Messages
21,181
i'll team with you scarecrow. i was planning on sitting out of teams but this will be more fun.


regarding metal gear in the 80s tourney, if i remember correctly, snake wasn't in that game.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_gear

Gameplay
The player must navigate the main character (codenamed "Solid Snake") through various locations, while avoiding visual contact and direct confrontation with patrolling guards. If the player is seen, the game enters the "Alert Mode." In this situation, the player must hide the character in order to leave the mode. The method of escaping varies depending on the circumstances behind discovery:


I'd also like to note that the sequel is called "Snake's Revenge", if that gives you a clue as to who you play in the first one ;)
 

KishSquared

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 4, 2003
Messages
3,857
Location
Osceola, IN
We're doing a side tourney as well. Characters are limited to only the 1980's nintendo universe.
I believe that the word "nintendo" here refers to the Nintendo franchise of the 1980s. Solid Snake, though appearing on a Nintendo platform, has never been owned by Nintendo. Wikipedia supports this:

Wikipedia said:
Solid Snake, the main protagonist of Konami's Metal Gear franchise, and Sonic the Hedgehog from Nintendo's former rival Sega are the first third-party characters to appear in a Super Smash Bros. game.
The term "third-party" is used here to infer that the characters are not, in fact, "first-party" characters. The term "first-party" is, in fact, not a term that relates to the first party ever thrown, ever. It actually refers to characters that are owned by Nintendo, and thus are part of the "1980's nintendo universe".
 

KishSquared

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 4, 2003
Messages
3,857
Location
Osceola, IN
KishSquared imma beat you up.
"imma"? Do you mean to use the term "I'ma"? Your grammar is full of fail.

Dastrn, please call the Winona Lake police and have them on standby in case there is an incident. It would be best if they could manage a 145 second response time.
 

Brahma

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 13, 2002
Messages
455
Location
South Bend, Indiana
As long as we're going on technicalities, DK, Ganondorf, and ZSS aren't part of the 1980's universe either.

This DK isn't the same that was in the original Donkey Kong. Cranky Kong was the original DK, and this DK is presumably DK Jr.

Ganondorf didn't appear until Ocarina of Time, in all the prior LoZ games the main baddie was Ganon, the big pig monster thing.

ZSS didn't appear until Metroid: Zero Mission.



Also, it's Princess Toadstool.
 

Dastrn

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Jul 16, 2005
Messages
9,472
Location
Indiana
As long as we're going on technicalities, DK, Ganondorf, and ZSS aren't part of the 1980's universe either.

This DK isn't the same that was in the original Donkey Kong. Cranky Kong was the original DK, and this DK is presumably DK Jr.

Ganondorf didn't appear until Ocarina of Time, in all the prior LoZ games the main baddie was Ganon, the big pig monster thing.

ZSS didn't appear until Metroid: Zero Mission.



Also, it's Princess Toadstool.
ZSS samus was in the original game using the justin bailey code.

ganondorf and ganon are redesigns of the same character, aren't they?

DK is DK.

princess toadstool IS peach. haven't you played mario 64....opening cinematic "dear mario, please come to the castle. i've baked a cake for you. yours truly, princess toadstool: peach!"

(i did that purely from memory, and i am confident it is word for word)

oh and snake isn't nintendo universe. neither is sonic. both are not allowed in the 80s tourney.
 

Overswarm

is laughing at you
Joined
May 4, 2005
Messages
21,181
Ganondorf is what Ganon was before he used the triforce of power and warped himself. Ganon is the boss in all the early Zelda games.

The DK from the NES games and arcade games is Cranky Kong though. DK we have now = DK Jr.
 

BananaHammock

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 6, 2006
Messages
247
i dont think i have a partner for this <_</
I'd be pumped for some teams. I was probably going to sit them out, but if you need somebody, I'm for it. But I'm totally rise-pound stalling while you do all the work.....I kid, I kid.
 

KishSquared

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 4, 2003
Messages
3,857
Location
Osceola, IN
princess toadstool IS peach. haven't you played mario 64....opening cinematic "dear mario, please come to the castle. i've baked a cake for you. yours truly, princess toadstool: peach!"

(i did that purely from memory, and i am confident it is word for word)
I remember thinking that the flavor of the cake was Peach. I was quite confused to find out that they had named her Peach.
 

Tink

Smash Hero
Joined
Jan 25, 2004
Messages
5,439
Location
Chi-Town
i looked over the first post, and just wondering how long we have in this place? and when do you plan to run this side tournament? cause you also wants to do pools, which takes forever and is that only for singles? or doubles too?

just a few questions =).
 

Overswarm

is laughing at you
Joined
May 4, 2005
Messages
21,181
i looked over the first post, and just wondering how long we have in this place? and when do you plan to run this side tournament? cause you also wants to do pools, which takes forever and is that only for singles? or doubles too?

just a few questions =).
DastrnMarco is M3D's sibling. Which kind of strikes a surprising cord, considering he's teaming with my little brother. It's like history repeating itself in some weird, crazy fashion.

That said, it is well known that the Rice family bends time to their will at any tournament they run, so we should be good.

We literally have enough room in this building to host as many setups as people can bring, so... bring setups if you can. I think 5 people are riding in one car from cinci (!!!), so that might be a no-setup from GUNPUNCH! though :(

I totally want to play that left handed drummer's drumset.
 

BIG C

Smash Master
Joined
Oct 24, 2004
Messages
3,917
Location
Distributing justice 24/7.
What's the problem with getting better at different situations? Being able to adapt is part of what makes a player good. Part of the problem with SWF is that a lot of stages that aren't immediately understood or largely popular get banned. People talk about Hanenbow and how it's unfair because one of the ledges isn't grabbable or other issues that become irrelevant once people begin to use the stages and figure ways around the issues. SWF is so quick to judge and ban. Anyone remember back in the early Melee days, when people thought Sheik's Ftilt was broken, until people realized that you could DI or CC it?

You argue for "neutral" stages, but there really aren't any truly "neutral" stages. There are always characters that have advantages or disadvantages, however slight they may be, even on "neutral" stages like Battlefield, Smashville, and FD. Look at FD, Falco automatically gains a small advantage there because he can run away and SHDL spam, without the opponent being able to use platforms to aid an approach, alot of other projectile characters gain the same advantage. How different is this from BoE, really? On Smashville, Snake can use the moving platform to set up C4, mine, and grenades as a moveable trap to help his pressure game. On Battlefield, Ganon's >B on the ground lands certain characters on the platforms, where they can easily be tech trapped with aerials, or if they shield they get dropped to the ground for a followup hit. On Yoshi's Story Ganon can't always autocancel Dair because of the uneven terrain, which hurts his game a lot, there are other characters whose autocancels are affecter there too. On Delfino, a lot of characters with precision recoveries have a tough time grabbing the edge since there's no solid wall, and some characters like DK are much easier to edgehog since if there is someone on the edge, they can't just keep pressing against the wall until the invincibility frames wear off, he'll just go right under the stage. There are also walls for infinites and walkoff edges here. Lylat benefits characters like Pikachu because of the low platforms, making platform tech traps possible.

The neutral stages aren't all that neutral really. These are just a few examples off the top of my head, there are a lot of other factors too. My point being that you will never have a truly neutral stage, unless both opponents have to use the same character.

Also, how many times, if any, have their been problems with these stages at tournaments for the reasons mentioned (camping, etc.)? It seems like you're looking at a lot of things in theory, that may not apply all that much in practice. If you have vids or other proof of stages being used to camp without the opponent being able to retaliate, then by all means post them up. But I think we should keep a lot of stages innocent until proven guilty.

1.) FD vs BoE FS = no walk off ledges and pig monster guy with a bomb coming and destroying half of the stage to make the pit of camp as i like to refer to it as of right now.

2.)no johns on autocancel if it were a man's game you could cancel it anyway regardless of stage.

and
3.) this game is obviously a 6-9 stage game all the other stages are just ridiculous not that I care for I only plan on doin teams for any tourny that I go to for this game.
 

Zjiin

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 15, 2006
Messages
4,005
Location
Brazil, SouThSidE!
The reason why most of those counterpicks should be removed is because they encourage poor tournament play, not because of any advantage/disadvantage they give to characters--understand that people.
 

Overswarm

is laughing at you
Joined
May 4, 2005
Messages
21,181
The reason why most of those counterpicks should be removed is because they encourage poor tournament play, not because of any advantage/disadvantage they give to characters--understand that people.
I lost my book on what was poor tournament play. Can I borrow yours? I thought I had a pretty good grasp on it, but I could be wrong. All I have are the sparknotes. They aren't very helpful, they just say "Flat stages only. Platforms add variety." I don't really get it.
 

Zjiin

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 15, 2006
Messages
4,005
Location
Brazil, SouThSidE!
I lost my book on what was poor tournament play. Can I borrow yours? I thought I had a pretty good grasp on it, but I could be wrong. All I have are the sparknotes. They aren't very helpful, they just say "Flat stages only. Platforms add variety." I don't really get it.
It's alright, no one expects you to comply or even understand.
 

Dastrn

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Jul 16, 2005
Messages
9,472
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Indiana
3.) this game is obviously a 6-9 stage game all the other stages are just ridiculous
I can understand you and Zjiin's ideas about wanting to restrict the stages allowed in this
(or any) tournament.

I also understand what a lot of other really smart smashers/gamers say about banning things too quickly. The difference when it comes to restricting counter picks is that we are not talking about banning a tactic or a character because it is broken, but rather we are talking about bans because they promote "ideal" competitive play.

This is a long conversation that needs not take place in individual tournament threads. Those of you who are SBR members, discuss your opinions there. The rest of you that want to make a positive contribution to the tournament scene by influencing the stage lists should be posting your thoughts in the Brawl Stage Discussion forum.

I don't mind a few questions, but this thread has been cluttered with more posts about the stage list (from both sides) than about the actual tournament. As a TO, part of me is glad that my tourney thread is one that is drawing views and posts, but another big part of me is irritated that we are bickering when we should just be talking smack and looking for 2s partners.

ultimately you can all post however you want. i won't be pissed either way.

But if you want to make me smile, discuss the 80s tourney.

My original plan was to ebay a NES and offer that as a prize for the 80s tourney, but my wife threatened divorce, death, and de-testicle-ing me in when I mentioned that I want to spend more money. (i haven't exactly been conservative with our credit card this year...)

My plan is to do pools and double elim brackets for both doubles and singles. After both of those, we'll do the 80s side tourney. The rules are that we are listening to depeche mode and anyone wearing a power glove while playing gets an extra stock.

Oh and the winner will get a hand-drawn picture of an NES controller...drawn by former president reagan himself (ink work done by Billy idol framed by none other than roger waters of Pink Floyd).

Don't accuse me of lying about all that. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry....

/turns green
/esplodes
 

Zjiin

Smash Master
Joined
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Messages
4,005
Location
Brazil, SouThSidE!
Fair enough Dastrn. I think we all made our points.

BTW, if The Cure isn't playing, i'm not entering the 80s tourney.
 

BIG C

Smash Master
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Distributing justice 24/7.
i mean idc cuz im not even gonna enter the brawl tournies. im just sayin that the majority of stages in brawl are ridiculous for tourny play. i defintely don't think all the stages banned in melee deserved it all of the time but brawl's stages oooooooo man.
 

Tink

Smash Hero
Joined
Jan 25, 2004
Messages
5,439
Location
Chi-Town
hey, it totally understand the awesome m3d gene for tournaments and all, but brawls not melee, and we should be having alot more people at this tournament then the last one. and we all know that there will never be enough TVs for a tournament because people simply dont bring them <_<.

edit: im stupid, nvm <_<.
 

Dastrn

BRoomer
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Fair enough Dastrn. I think we all made our points.

BTW, if The Cure isn't playing, i'm not entering the 80s tourney.
oh the cure will be making a personal appearance.

well not the whole band, but i did get Robert Smith to come sing...

also jesus will be there. (the event IS at a church, after all...)

I think the power rangers are making a quick appearance as well, but they're from the 90's and hence, will not be allowed in the building.
 

Kel

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 24, 2007
Messages
4,605
Location
Cincinnati, Ohio
Can the Cincy car come up tomorrow (Friday) and stay the night? Possibly Saturday night too? We'd like a place to stay, and to not have to drive 4-5 hours all early Saturday morning.

Pleassssseee!
 

Kyari

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 21, 2002
Messages
1,845
Location
Indianapolis, Indiana.
Slippi.gg
KYRI#103
The following news is kinda sad. I have to deconfirm luigi_legend and rook... their employers are *******s :(.

But hopefully I'll be able to bring a newb or two in their stead :\
 

Jekyll

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 3, 2005
Messages
997
Location
Redwood City, CA
The following news is kinda sad. I have to deconfirm luigi_legend and rook... their employers are *******s :(.

But hopefully I'll be able to bring a newb or two in their stead :\
I'm pretty sure that rook could be in two places at once if he really tried.

I guess I'll be the newb taking his place.
 

Brahma

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 13, 2002
Messages
455
Location
South Bend, Indiana
Marco, ultimately it's your tournament, and we'll play with whatever rules you decide on. It just irks me to see people trying to limit and restrict the game more and more.

Also, I'll try to bring a setup as well.
 

Dastrn

BRoomer
BRoomer
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Messages
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Indiana
Kel and OS, let me see what I can do. PM me with a cell phone number and I'll call you in an hour or two and let you know what I can figure out.
 

Overswarm

is laughing at you
Joined
May 4, 2005
Messages
21,181
Accepting $1 Money Matches from EVERYONE. This tournament's rules 2/3.


Also, bringing at least 1 setup, possibly 2 because I'm ****ing awesome.
Done.


Dastrn, PMing you our phone #s
 

Kyari

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 21, 2002
Messages
1,845
Location
Indianapolis, Indiana.
Slippi.gg
KYRI#103
I'm pretty sure that rook could be in two places at once if he really tried.

I guess I'll be the newb taking his place.
No, the newb would be my cousin, who is 16 and uses Dedede/TL/ZSS. I wouldn't call you a newb, it would be a **** move considering the degree of closeness from the last time we played :p
 

Tink

Smash Hero
Joined
Jan 25, 2004
Messages
5,439
Location
Chi-Town
ill take some MMs, but not on tthose janky levels. ill play with reg levels for the most part.
 
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