Overswarm
is laughing at you
- Joined
- May 4, 2005
- Messages
- 21,181
haha, way to fail. You got beat fair and square sir
So if Kel's going, I'm going.
Looking forward to this!
Joshu, $1 MM with both of us facing away from the TV?
-
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Smash and Coffee - June 7th Winona Lake, IN
- Thread starter Dastrn
- Start date
So if Kel's going, I'm going.
Looking forward to this!
Joshu, $1 MM with both of us facing away from the TV?
BIG C
Smash Master
at least in melee they had to you know work for it other than just z and down over and over. the tech skill made it reasonable but since such things don't exist in Brawl it's about as gay and ugly as Rosie O'Donnell.
Zjiin
Smash Master
Hey I didn't john, I didn't blame people for telling me to go there when i was looking for a fun stage to play on, and I shook his hand without saying anything negative...Overswarm said:haha, way to fail. You got beat fair and square sir
...but I'm certainly not going to say that match was fair and square, and anyone who does needs to re-evaluate their code of ethics against the need to win.
As funny as saying like "don't get grabbed" or "don't play that character" are to real players, there is no reason this possible outcome should happen in a tournament.
Zjiin
Smash Master
Wow, good job.
Snake's feelings are more important to me than my opponent's. True story. 
Kyari
Smash Lord
Unless something catastrophic happens, expect me and my crew (five total) to be there. Jekyll was wanting us to bring him so you can add him to the unconfirmed list as we haven't made arrangements yet (he lives in Bloomington).
Yeah maybe I should just host Magic tourneys. It seems like people are more excited about that than they are about smashing.
And magic is way easier to get good at than smash, IMO. I was probably among the top 5 MTG players in the DC area back in 4th edition.
And magic is way easier to get good at than smash, IMO. I was probably among the top 5 MTG players in the DC area back in 4th edition.
Kel
Smash Master
Zjinn, I know what you're trying to say and all. But the fact of the matter is that it's a tournament. You're trying to WIN the tournament, not have the most fun. There are unbalanced aspects of every game and matchup. Once you figured out what he was doing the match took a different stance. Next time, you'll know better or you'll ban the stage.
BIG C
Smash Master
who wants to team with this young Big C snake if I go????
I totally only do teams tournies in this game.
I totally only do teams tournies in this game.
rofl, why was that stage banned in melee? oh yeah...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRBZKre9M_M
so how is that ANY different from what falco does? the only thing is, hes can do it to almost ALL of the cast. just wondering os o,0? u should know the answer.
edit: and not just ones a B move and the others a grab <_<.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRBZKre9M_M
so how is that ANY different from what falco does? the only thing is, hes can do it to almost ALL of the cast. just wondering os o,0? u should know the answer.
edit: and not just ones a B move and the others a grab <_<.
Overswarm
is laughing at you
- Joined
- May 4, 2005
- Messages
- 21,181
The stage was banned in Melee because of a myriad of factors. There were constant SDs, incredibly easy vertical KOs, a hyrule Temple effect when people CCed, walk off KOs, and the pipe on the left was glitchy.
It's really easy not to get killed by Falco like that. Don't stand on the hill until you are at high enough % to get out. If your character can't get out of it due to size, change your character or ban the stage.
The only way to really prove that it is banworthy is by people winning tournaments with it, and doing so easily. The stage shouldn't be banned just because some random guy gets beaten badly on it. I 3-stocked Zjinn's Snake on Luigi's Mansion with my ROB. Mansion isn't even in the running for "Banned Stage".
Anything else is merely theory... that stage works fine for me when I play it; I don't get destroyed there. It may just be a really awesome Falco stage. Why ban that stage simply because a Falco owned someone on it with a new trick? Zjinn obviously didn't know what the hell was going on in that match until he was down to one stock, and the match took a different turn afterwards. I guarantee the match would be entirely different if they played it again right now.
Btw, Eddie won that set. Not only that, but you can smash DI behind Fox when he's doing his waveshine there. >_>
BIG C
Smash Master
uh the kishes banned pipes at major MW tournies cuz Kish² would take ppl there he shouldn't have beat and beat them there with fox. just FYI I dunno why the rest of the country banned it. and I've never seen someone SD at pipes in melee other than frosune cuz he didn't know what to do cuz all he did was SHFFL nair back in the day through the middle of the stage.. The ceiling problem is still there play a char that can carry someone up top like when sum1 uses metaknight and uairs them to death from the bottom part of the stage.
first, you need to find out why the stage was ORIGINALLY banned for and its not what you said os heh....
rofl, did you like, somehow chain him to death for stocks on luigis mansion? cause that match has NOTHING to do with what we are talking about here. if damien happend to get the falco down to last stock in that match, we would STILL be having this arguement.
OS said:
rofl, did you like, somehow chain him to death for stocks on luigis mansion? cause that match has NOTHING to do with what we are talking about here. if damien happend to get the falco down to last stock in that match, we would STILL be having this arguement.
Overswarm
is laughing at you
- Joined
- May 4, 2005
- Messages
- 21,181
No. I used the stages properties to make it much easier for me to do so though, which is all the Falco did there. If your problem is with the character or the technique, you have an entirely different problem.
For this tournament it is banned. Not because of Zjiin's match, but because it seems to me that it reduces the game to chain-grabbing.
I knew the Zelgadis vs Eddie match would come up. That's a classic example of what made pipes ******** in Melee. Fox was pretty much the only viable character on that stage. The only difference between that situation and this one is that waveshining actually took a little bit of skill (i never mastered it myself) but falco chain-grabbing is hella easy.
Ultimately, this conversation boils down to what your philosophy is on what makes a stage ban-worthy. Sirlin is wise, but he is not Jesus. His suggestions on bans are important to understand, but ultimately, the community has to decide what are the core elements of the competitive version of the game we play, and then structure our tournaments to support those elements.
As a small time TO, I can get away with some minor experimentation in terms of stage selections. If you (the collective community) told me my stage selections were ********, I would obviously be going in the wrong direction if I wanted to be a part of your community. This kind of experimentation can help us understand what stages belong on our banned list long-term.
We have a few options to choose from to help us understand what needs banned and what doesn't. One option is to not ban anything at all, and see if the game is reduced to one tactic or one stage or one character. Another option is to selectively ban things slowly to try out different sets of stages, and then see how that ruleset works for us. If we stumble across a combination that seems to result in the "optimal" (as decided by the community, not by some impartial rule Dave Sirlin wrote, wise though he may be) competitive environment, then we have improved upon our situation as a community, and given ourselves a much more positive competitive gaming experience.
I'm ok with either option, but the community as a whole has already started banning things selectively. I have very good tournament players tell me that Hanenbow should absolutely be banned, and another group of players saying it's a completely acceptable counterpick. I've seen Pictochat on banned lists and neutral lists. I've seen PS2 on both banned and neutral lists. I prefer to remove Lylat from the neutral list and put it in as a counterpick, but for this tourney, it's a neutral
Because the generally accepted method of running a Brawl tourney so far is to ban some stages, I've made a list that seems pretty balanced to me. I am comfortable with some of you disagreeing with my stage lists. Brawl is far too new to have a completely worked out list already (much like the Tier list, which shouldn't be decided on for another 8-12 months). TO's have to make decisions, and I made the best ones I know how to make at this point. For every negative comment I've had from someone about my stage choices, I've also had positive comments saying that my choices made complete sense.
Either way, we're going with this list for now.
I knew the Zelgadis vs Eddie match would come up. That's a classic example of what made pipes ******** in Melee. Fox was pretty much the only viable character on that stage. The only difference between that situation and this one is that waveshining actually took a little bit of skill (i never mastered it myself) but falco chain-grabbing is hella easy.
Ultimately, this conversation boils down to what your philosophy is on what makes a stage ban-worthy. Sirlin is wise, but he is not Jesus. His suggestions on bans are important to understand, but ultimately, the community has to decide what are the core elements of the competitive version of the game we play, and then structure our tournaments to support those elements.
As a small time TO, I can get away with some minor experimentation in terms of stage selections. If you (the collective community) told me my stage selections were ********, I would obviously be going in the wrong direction if I wanted to be a part of your community. This kind of experimentation can help us understand what stages belong on our banned list long-term.
We have a few options to choose from to help us understand what needs banned and what doesn't. One option is to not ban anything at all, and see if the game is reduced to one tactic or one stage or one character. Another option is to selectively ban things slowly to try out different sets of stages, and then see how that ruleset works for us. If we stumble across a combination that seems to result in the "optimal" (as decided by the community, not by some impartial rule Dave Sirlin wrote, wise though he may be) competitive environment, then we have improved upon our situation as a community, and given ourselves a much more positive competitive gaming experience.
I'm ok with either option, but the community as a whole has already started banning things selectively. I have very good tournament players tell me that Hanenbow should absolutely be banned, and another group of players saying it's a completely acceptable counterpick. I've seen Pictochat on banned lists and neutral lists. I've seen PS2 on both banned and neutral lists. I prefer to remove Lylat from the neutral list and put it in as a counterpick, but for this tourney, it's a neutral
Because the generally accepted method of running a Brawl tourney so far is to ban some stages, I've made a list that seems pretty balanced to me. I am comfortable with some of you disagreeing with my stage lists. Brawl is far too new to have a completely worked out list already (much like the Tier list, which shouldn't be decided on for another 8-12 months). TO's have to make decisions, and I made the best ones I know how to make at this point. For every negative comment I've had from someone about my stage choices, I've also had positive comments saying that my choices made complete sense.
Either way, we're going with this list for now.
Teebs
Smash Champion
If you go and still are in need of a partner, look no further good sir!
rofl, ok OS, im not even going to argue with you because its useless. your obviously not going to change your idea on the subject, but you using the stage to kill someone and the other person using a o-death ONLY because of the stage, not the technique or character. so, johns on ya, i look forward to owning that *** in tourny.
Overswarm
is laughing at you
- Joined
- May 4, 2005
- Messages
- 21,181
Make our tournament match a MM if it comes up? :D
I'll also MM anyone's Falco vs. my ROB on Pipes here, 2 out of 3 all Pipes.
dear god yes
Kyari
Smash Lord
If you cancel this to play Magic, I'll **** on your face.
Anyway, I'm bringing:
17. kyari
18. jobrown4
19. Sofa King 742
20. rookie
21. luigi_legend
Anyway, I'm bringing:
17. kyari
18. jobrown4
19. Sofa King 742
20. rookie
21. luigi_legend
Overswarm
is laughing at you
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- 21,181
Don't get too cocky, Star Fox.
But yeah, $5 is good. I may or may not have a job this summer, so I may need to play either a lot more or a lot less money matches... my work just cut my hours for the summer from 24 to 10.5 and split it over 3 days. GG me.
Joshu, I'm so excited for our MM, you have no idea. What stage? It needs to be ridiculous. And recorded.
Zjiin
Smash Master
That match has absolutely nothign to do with what we are talking about here. Luigi's Mansion is just better for Rob, and i learned that. There wasn't a situation where i got trapped into not being able to do anything to save myself. Even if I had 3 tocked his falco on the stage, it doesn't change the fact that someone who knows how to play smash and setup oppritunities, won't learn how to get the person in the right situation to 0-death them.
*This is where i would go to compare this to major stage hazzards and state how the CG is much worse, but then i rememberd who i'm talking to, and i really don't feel like debating about ******** stages.
edit: i dont play falco btw <_<. incase you wanted that to be the MM <_<.im not cocky, just confident. last time we played, i didnt even grasp the game at all. was still l cancelling <_<.... this time it will be different
edit: whoops <_<.
Brahma
Smash Journeyman
Out of curiousity, why is Distant Planet banned?
Overswarm
is laughing at you
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No, that's just a separate one. I like to take crazy MMs like that. People all saying "this is broken" and "this is too good", and really it's just another good strategy added to the game that people don't have experience against yet... and I don't lose, at least not easily, to crap like that. Helps teach people, and sometimes I get money!
I was still in uber-super-camp mode back then.... should be SUPER AWESOME for us to play. At the risk of being nerdier than average in a game forum, we are coming back to fight one another as super saiyans.
oops, that's supposed to be open for counterpicks. I'll fix the original list.
You can add JZBAI to the attendees. Possibly 2 others as well provided they can get off work.
BIG C
Smash Master
im totally gonna end up not entering and just bring and play melee all day
Overswarm
is laughing at you
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- 21,181
It's okay. We all think you're cool.
James Sparrow
Smash Master
did you get your melee disc back?
Also, addition to JZBAI coming for sure, I have like 4 people pending on coming. (Depends on if they can actually get work covered, haha).
Kel
Smash Master
Then why are you avoiding me, Tinkim not cocky, just confident. last time we played, i didnt even grasp the game at all. was still l cancelling <_<.... this time it will be different
Goku always wins regardless of what Vegeta does
Teebs
Smash Champion
Does this mean I'm out of a possible teammate again?
BananaHammock
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- May 6, 2006
- Messages
- 247
Provided I make it to this, I'll play you every chance I get. Gotta get practiced up for Zjiin's the following weekend! Not that I'd provide you much challenge, but maybe I'll take one from you since you're out of practice.
kirkq
Smash Ace
Garbage Counterpicks:
Corneria - promotes camping and wall infinites.
Green Greens - promotes camping and wall infinites.
Bridge of Eldin - promotes camping and projectile spamming and walk off kills.
Onett - promotes camping and wall infinites and walk off kills.
Hanenbow - promotes camping and projectile spamming.
When I say camping I mean that the stage is so segmented that the approaching player is extremely disadvantaged when having to chase/approach the character at that portion of the stage. Or in Bridge of Eldin's case there is just too much stage to run to, and the slower, losing character will never catch up.
I favor a generally loose counterpick list, but these stages just lower the integrity of the tournament. Most of these stages if they get picked will involve a stupid tactic and 7 minutes of unhappy players/viewers.
On that note, I may bring myself and two others, I may just choose not to attend.
Corneria - promotes camping and wall infinites.
Green Greens - promotes camping and wall infinites.
Bridge of Eldin - promotes camping and projectile spamming and walk off kills.
Onett - promotes camping and wall infinites and walk off kills.
Hanenbow - promotes camping and projectile spamming.
When I say camping I mean that the stage is so segmented that the approaching player is extremely disadvantaged when having to chase/approach the character at that portion of the stage. Or in Bridge of Eldin's case there is just too much stage to run to, and the slower, losing character will never catch up.
I favor a generally loose counterpick list, but these stages just lower the integrity of the tournament. Most of these stages if they get picked will involve a stupid tactic and 7 minutes of unhappy players/viewers.
On that note, I may bring myself and two others, I may just choose not to attend.