Smash and Coffee - June 7th Winona Lake, IN

[Brahma]

Yes, DastrnMarco, it was a good tournament. Don't mind us if we're still debating stages.

But Big C, we aren't arguing that you need to win 2 of the 3 matches. We well recognize that we need to win on neutral stages in order to win. You can never rely on counterpicks alone - you only get one, after all. You gotta use logic here. If your friendly ONLY got good on CP stages, no wonder he never won!

Counterpicks are supposed to be to one's advantage, so don't insult people for using counters to their advantage. You still need to win on a neutral stage if you want to win.

I've beaten many EC players on neutral stages. If they lose on a neutral and counter me to another neutral, that's up to them. Just because I don't return the favor doesn't mean I don't know how to play the game.

Well put.

I think a big hole in Big C and Zjiin's logic is that they seem to believe that people who use counterpicks can only win on their counterpicks. This isn't really the case. You only get one counterpick per set, so if you can only win on your counterpick, then yes, you will probably lose your match, so you better be good on "neutrals" too. Same goes for you two, if you can only win on "neutrals" or stages you are comfortable with, then are you really as good as you can be?

Counterpicks aren't meant to be a one-shot sure win for the match. A counterpick will give you an advantage for one fight in a match, but you'll still have to play on a "neutral" or another player's counterpick. It greatly benefits a player to learn how to play on all stages, not just the one's that they feel are "neutral" or that they feel comfortable with. If you don't want to learn to deal with other stages, fine, but you're limiting yourself in your overall game.

Also, the "neutral" stage logic is flawed to begin with. There are no stages that are truly "neutral". I hate to beat this point into the ground, but the fact that a stage is flat doesn't mean much. Look at FD, most people's ideal "neutral" stage. You can honestly tell me that Snake, Falco, Dedede, Pit, and several other character do not gain any sort of advantage from this stage?

Bottom line is competitors come to win, regardless of counterpick stages, counterpick characters, etc. You can complain all you want about how you don't get your optimal situation, how you may be at a disadvantage, etc. But if you can't handle a fight unless it's in your favor, then you need to step up your game.

 

[Overswarm]

Why are you referring to neutrals as if they were look down upon? I really don't see many debates over what should consititue as neutrals, so i can only assume they are accepted as the most fair and balanced best for the general cast.

That's because you can't read threads in the backroom.

Counterpick stages therefore, by definition would be the stages that are less fair and balanced for the general cast. Are you really happy with mainly winning on stages that favor your character? I sure hope not.

Yes, I am happy winning on stages that give me an advantage. I'm very, very good at counterpicking.

I'd like to point out that you said "are less fair and balanced for the general cast". This is not true. When someone counterpicks you, they are doing one of three things:

1. Picking a stage that benefits their character so they have an edge (Like Luigi's Mansion for ROB)

2. Picking a stage that hurts their opponent's character, thus forcing them to have a disadvantage if they only play one or forcing them to pick another character (like Rainbow Cruise vs. Olimar)

3. Picking a stage that is inherently more random, and thus randomizing the victor of the game. This always favors the weaker player. (Wario Ware)

#3 stages are phased out over time. Some are instantly phased out, while others don't seem to be that way at first but, over time, we realize that the hazards and general layout of the stage seems to make things too random.

#2 is dangerous, as any player planning on being really competitive knows their character can be CPed and plays at least two.

#1 stages are generally only banned if they give extreme advantages, like Onett in Melee to Fox.

CPing has nothing to do with "not being fair and balanced to the general cast", which, btw, you are referring to Snake. Whenever you are saying "blah blah blah flat stages are good for many characters and are fair", we read "flat stages are good for Snake". Because they are. They are really, really good. Battlefield almost makes ROB vs. Snake an even matchup because Snake gets such an advantage there.

I also don't mainly win on stages that favor my character. I win on neutrals a lot... and I win on opponent's counterpicks when I don't. I don't know how you can praise the blander stages as the secret to being really good at the game when the people you are arguing AGAINST all placed higher than you.

Hell, KishSquared did it with Bowser. BOWSER.

 

[Zjiin]

I think a big hole in Big C and Zjiin's logic is that they seem to believe that people who use counterpicks can only win on their counterpicks. This isn't really the case. You only get one counterpick per set, so if you can only win on your counterpick, then yes, you will probably lose your match, so you better be good on "neutrals" too. Same goes for you two, if you can only win on "neutrals" or stages you are comfortable with, then are you really as good as you can be?

Who says I can only win on neutrals? I CP too, but that's not the point of such extreme cp stage lists. I don't know who here is saying they can only win on neutrals, because when you're good at your character, a CP shouldn't really affect it as much. The point I'm making is that a lot of people are trying to work all these counterpicks before knowing how to use their characters as well as they could.

That's because you can't read threads in the backroom.

If the only thing the BR is affecting is a small IN tourney, then who cares, lol. (Besides, who says I can't access the BR via BR verified accounts )

CPing has nothing to do with "not being fair and balanced to the general cast", which, btw, you are referring to Snake. Whenever you are saying "blah blah blah flat stages are good for many characters and are fair", we read "flat stages are good for Snake". Because they are. They are really, really good. Battlefield almost makes ROB vs. Snake an even matchup because Snake gets such an advantage there.

I'm not referring to Snake, because I don't play Snake outside of tourneys. So your attempt to bias my opinion fails. Good try though.

If attendance is what you're trying to damage, you're succeeding, because a lot of us agreed to not travel to tourneys with similar stage selections. Not that I lost on any of those stages. (cept pools, but c'mon, when everone makes it out, it's time to play some other characters for fun)

 

[Overswarm]

Wait, so if we have Hanenbow as a counterpick....

the grumpy players that complain a lot and talk about Melee the same way Middle Schoolers talk about cigarettes won't come?


I see. -_^


(and by "a lot of us", you can't mean more than 5)

 

[Zjiin]

Wait, so if we have Hanenbow as a counterpick....

the grumpy players that complain a lot and talk about Melee the same way Middle Schoolers talk about cigarettes won't come?


I see. -_^


(and by "a lot of us", you can't mean more than 5)

7. Plus WI was thinking about coming to the next one, but usually The Cave runs tourneys on the same date. We like this venue better, but don't really wanna play those stages every second match.

[EDIT] PLUS the people from the Cave who wanted to go to this, but heard about it too late. Although when they heard about the stages, they were glad they stayed.

I'm not throwing out an ultimatium here, because i don't wanna be an asshat, but we just want people to know where we stand.

 

[Overswarm]

Weird. Sucks you guys won't be around for the circuit, I guess :\

 

[BIG C]

rofl cuz the circuit has gone soooo well as of yet with it's first tourny being postponed twice.

if thats even supposed to be the first one still. plus that list he has only has like 2 terrible stages on it. and really it's only 1 jungle japes.

 

[Dastrn]

7. Plus WI was thinking about coming to the next one, but usually The Cave runs tourneys on the same date. We like this venue better, but don't really wanna play those stages every second match.

[EDIT] PLUS the people from the Cave who wanted to go to this, but heard about it too late. Although when they heard about the stages, they were glad they stayed.

I'm not throwing out an ultimatium here, because i don't wanna be an asshat, but we just want people to know where we stand.

Zjiin I know you're generally a good dude, so I'm not reading any of this as threatening to boycott my tournaments just to be a jerk. I genuinely believe that you want a good environment in which to play your favorite game, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. We all argued with MrWizard about this same idea, although we can all agree that the tournaments I put on are nowhere near the travesty that he is attempting.

Ultimately, we're talking about relatively small details in the grand scheme of the tournament. Like you have said, you won't lose a set to someone worse than you because of a counterpick, because you always have the third game to CP back to BF or Smashville with Snake and beat them. Therefore, there should not be any change in final placing once we hit brackets. You mentioned that in pool play, you screw around a bit with characters and are not nearly as concerned with losing one in three games.

I actually took a game off Overswarm because I CP'ed well in pools. It's clear to anyone who has seen us both play that I have no business beating him, but I did. My win in that seemingly innocuous game actually ended up being the tie breaker that determined that OS ended up as a 3rd seed coming out of pools rather than a 1st seed.

This situation illustrates the importance of being very well rounded when traveling to bigger tournaments. OS ultimately went undefeated in brackets, so he didn't lose any money this time, but imagine he goes to FC-73 next year and gets CP'ed to norfair by a G&W and doesn't change character? Dropping to a 3rd seed coming out of pools in that kind of tourney will give him a significantly harder road to the finals.

To me, this suggests that not only is it important to be prepared for multiple stages, but it is also important to be prepared for multiple characters. ROB's trouble with G&W is the reason that OS picked up Snake in the last 6 weeks. Chances are good that on stages like norfair against G&W, he'll probably have to play someone other than ROB or Snake. And that's ok. It's a 35 character cast, and he shouldn't consider himself a top player if he isn't prepared to play several characters depending on matchups and stages. That's why we pick stages first, then characters.

I'm going to keep putting on tournaments every 6-8 weeks for as long as I have the energy and people keep showing up. I'm not going to do anything completely shocking to the Smash community. (Hanenbow is debated, but it's allowed in TONS of tournaments. Norfair, in your own words, is a completely legit counter.) I'm going to try out a few different stage situations over the next few tournaments I do. This is necessary for us to have the information we need (meaning the SBR needs) to decide on a standard ruleset that we can all accept. For that reason, I will probably not ban Hanenbow or Great Sea or Norfair until the SBR says so.

If anyone decides to boycott my tournies because of this, that's unfortunate for the entire community because these early tournaments are going to help us recognize stages that need banned, tier lists, and other rules. If a stage creates unfair advantages, you sort of owe it to the community to exploit the stage to demonstrate that it is broken and have it removed. I've heard SO many people say they were working on IC infinites just to prove that they need to be banned. I heard people during the japanese release say that they were going to main DDD just to prove that chaingrabbing needed to be banned. (they were wrong) But we found out because they tried it. And DDD is not dominating. Hanenbow will not dominate anything. Neither with norfair.



/wall of text crits you for a lousy 11 damage./

 

[Overswarm]

Norfair is such an awful ROB stage, too

 

[Teebs]

rofl cuz the circuit has gone soooo well as of yet with it's first tourny being postponed twice.

if thats even supposed to be the first one still. plus that list he has only has like 2 terrible stages on it. and really it's only 1 jungle japes.

The only reason why it's been postponed twice is because the first time WG had hand surgery and this weekend is Father's Day. There is no harm in that. Do we really need to go over stages again?

 

[Zjiin]

Weird. Sucks you guys won't be around for the circuit, I guess :\

LOL. That is all.

Zjiin...

/wall of text crits you for a lousy 11 damage./

I understand where you are coming from and I understand you guys wanting to try out these stages. Norfair, I think should be on CP. It's just a pretty janky one. Bridge, Onett, Green Hill Zone and Hanenbow (as stupid as it is) only encourages poor play, but other than that, really aren't bad stages. But places like Great Sea, Mario Circuit, Mute City, have no right to be on. I know you didn't have Mute City on, but I wouldn't have been surprised if you did. I'm not going to go into why they shouldn't be on, because everyone already knows the arguments.

I'm not some ban happy guy that people like to label me as, but I'm not going to sit by and watch everyone decide that these stages are legit without a fight. I wish I wasn't the one of the only ones who is willing to say so to people, because a lot of people reading these threads agree as much or even more so than me, but so be it. Overswarm has been pulling this "if I work on CPs instead of getting better I'll do great" junk since Melee, and it didn’t' do much for him then, just as it won't when people start advancing their game. I'm just trying to get the MW to learn their matchups. A lot of people here can play their character swell and that's great. But the majority of that tournament was people playing their character BADLY, and instead of asking about general strategies or gameplay tactics for their character, they are here debating why they want a stage on. This will work great for those of us who can deal with it, but this isn't going to get the overall competition any better, and in turn, isn't going to get top players any better because the our energy isn't in learning aggressive and smart playstyles. It's into learning how to play on any non banned stage out there, and in the long run, is going to hurt everyone in the region.

If you guys want to have the stages on, there's really nothing I can do. You'll find enough people who are picking up smash for the first time to fill in the missing numbers. All these people who weren't seriously into Melee will all support and cheer for you because they don't know any better. But if it comes down to that, I'd rather not be part of it, before we turn into another laughing stock of the US. All this talk is headed towards the opposite of what makes top players: Aggressiveness, smart character play, and being able to read your opponent. Learning Hanenbow and taking people to Great Sea is going to make us all great in levels that will never be allowed in national tournaments.

I'm glad every Tom, Dick, and Harry who never played competitive smash until Brawl will be so pleased. But for a game that's really fighting the tide to be competitive, this is really not helping. Later.

TLDR

 

[Dastrn]

LOL. That is all.



I understand where you are coming from and I understand you guys wanting to try out these stages. Norfair, I think should be on CP. It's just a pretty janky one. Bridge, Onett, Green Hill Zone and Hanenbow (as stupid as it is) only encourages poor play, but other than that, really aren't bad stages. But places like Great Sea, Mario Circuit, Mute City, have no right to be on. I know you didn't have Mute City on, but I wouldn't have been surprised if you did. I'm not going to go into why they shouldn't be on, because everyone already knows the arguments.

I'm not some ban happy guy that people like to label me as, but I'm not going to sit by and watch everyone decide that these stages are legit without a fight. I wish I wasn't the one of the only ones who is willing to say so to people, because a lot of people reading these threads agree as much or even more so than me, but so be it. Overswarm has been pulling this "if I work on CPs instead of getting better I'll do great" junk since Melee, and it didn’t' do much for him then, just as it won't when people start advancing their game. I'm just trying to get the MW to learn their matchups. A lot of people here can play their character swell and that's great. But the majority of that tournament was people playing their character BADLY, and instead of asking about general strategies or gameplay tactics for their character, they are here debating why they want a stage on. This will work great for those of us who can deal with it, but this isn't going to get the overall competition any better, and in turn, isn't going to get top players any better because the our energy isn't in learning aggressive and smart playstyles. It's into learning how to play on any non banned stage out there, and in the long run, is going to hurt everyone in the region.

If you guys want to have the stages on, there's really nothing I can do. You'll find enough people who are picking up smash for the first time to fill in the missing numbers. All these people who weren't seriously into Melee will all support and cheer for you because they don't know any better. But if it comes down to that, I'd rather not be part of it, before we turn into another laughing stock of the US. All this talk is headed towards the opposite of what makes top players: Aggressiveness, smart character play, and being able to read your opponent. Learning Hanenbow and taking people to Great Sea is going to make us all great in levels that will never be allowed in national tournaments.

I'm glad every Tom, Dick, and Harry who never played competitive smash until Brawl will be so pleased. But for a game that's really fighting the tide to be competitive, this is really not helping. Later.

TLDR

I appreciate your thoughts on the topic. I'm excited that I'm involved in the Brawl scene from the start. I didn't play SSB and I came into the Melee scene in 2004, so I missed a lot of the beginning. I remember Jason telling me one day that he was going to a smashfest at some kid's house that he met on the internet, and I picked on him for being a geek. Turns out it was Azen's house he went to, and he learned what competitive smash was from them.

But I missed all that. I'm excited this time to be involved in these conversations from the start of Brawl. I look forward to a few years down the road when I'm at some tournament and some kid asks me why a certain stage is banned, and rather than repeating something I heard somewhere, I can confidently explain what effects that stage has on the tourney scene.

We're going to learn that in the next 12 months or so. IMO the only way to do so with any kind of authority is to try things out and not take the goofy mistakes too seriously.

I've been around just long enough to remember the bickering about how many stocks we should play with in Melee, and hearing everyone say Shiek was absolutely god tier broken. We learned through thousands of tournaments that 4 stocks was ideal, and shiek is top 5. Stages like Onett got banned rather late in the Melee lifecycle because of fox. We didn't learn that early because the game developed. Everyone who *****ed about Onett as a ******** CP early in the Melee days were not right for the reasons they thought they were. It turned out the stage needed to be banned to keep the game from turning into constant fox dittos. (btw, has anyone ever played a good young link on Onett in melee? you should see the crap B-run would do on that stage....zomg)

In this conversation, we are all full of crap, because this game is like 3 months old. Hence we should let our conversations about these stages be defined as follows:

1. be humble. we don't know everything yet.
2. be kind. we are region-mates. when we go to national tourneys, we need some freaking camaraderie. we can't afford to hate each other.
3. have some fun. pester each other, talk crap, but leave smileys at the end to remind each other that WE ARE PLAYING A VIDEO GAME! We don't have to take it seriously.
4. cake > pie

that is all.

 

[BIG C]

cake is > pie it is true.

but like we don't hate anyone or take anything about stages personally. we would just rather see an ideal tournament for this game that everyone is fighting for it to be competitive standard. I still root for OS over other regions but inner midwest i would more than likely root for someone over him. cuz i like ppl more than i like him and i'm sure he is fully aware of this.

we just don't wanna be a laughing stock of the smash community where at different regions we get looked down on because of our fellow MW brethren. the fact of the matter is stages in brawl are way worse than the worst stage in melee it's true and we all know it it's just some don't want to admit it.

plus smash has been a laughing stock of all fighting games and we worked hard for the small amount of respect we got. we dont want brawl and its dumb stages to ruin that either.

 

[Kel]

Note that at the end of Melee it was the EC that was known for camping. M2K would run away and laser with fox all day if he had to. Besides, if we beat them, who the hell cares what they think?

I had to play fox in melee simply for counterpicks, it happens.

 

[Overswarm]

No offense to other fighters, but they're numbers are ultra tiny and they're big organizer, EVO, is trying to put items on for smash tournaments.

Why do we need their respect?

 

[Sliq]

Practice the game, not the stages. End topic.

 

[Zjiin]

Practice the game, not the stages. End topic.

THIS .

 

[Joshu]

Because stages have never been a part of smash.

 

[Drephen]

brawl sucks

<.<

>.>

 

[CaptainAwesome]

This debate is ridiculous. On the one hand, you have the people arguing that the skill we should try to measure is straight-up combat. And on the other, you have the people arguing that overall game knowledge/CP strategy are aspects of the game that should go into competitive play. Both camps are too steadfast in their beliefs to actually accomplish anything. You'll argue in circles until one side gets tired of it.

See, whenever I see this argument forming, I usually just grab my keyboard and slam it into my head until I forget that it's happening. However, this time, I decided to tell you guys that it's stupid.


Just thought I'd let you know.

 

[Overswarm]

Practice the game, not the stages. End topic.

Win tournaments, not friendlies.

 

[Doctor X]

Practice the game, not the stages. End topic.

Or you could, you know, practice both.

 

[Sliq]

Or you could, you know, practice both.

Jack of all trades but master of none.

You can practice many things at once and be proficient or practice one thing and be a master.

This has no impact on picking a counterpick stage, but your time is better spent practicing to get better overall so that you win the first match, i.e. the most important match to win.

The better player will win on the neutral all the time, so picking a weird stage to your advantage is fine and all, but if he's better than you winning that one match isn't going to matter.

I'm not saying don't couterpick good stages, I'm saying don't practice on counter pick in which you have a built in strategy only accesible via that counterpick, otherwise people will have an edge since they've dedicated all of their time to their character and playstyle.

Winning your counterpick is important, but if you win the first match it shouldn't matter.

I picked Brinstar with Jiggs for christ's sakes.

 

[Doctor X]

The better player will win on the neutral all the time, so picking a weird stage to your advantage is fine and all, but if he's better than you winning that one match isn't going to matter.

That's not necessarily true. When two players are close in skill, fights can go either way. Plus, even the "neutrals" favor some characters more than others.

Winning your counterpick is important, but if you win the first match it shouldn't matter.

Winning the first doesn't guarantee winning the second or even the third. Especially if you pick a stage on the third that doesn't help you at all.


I mean... don't get me wrong. You make good points, and I'm sure you're a lot better than me at this game. I just think it's a little shortsighted to think that the "better player" will absolutely always win on a neutral stage.

 

[Overswarm]

Jack of all trades but master of none.

You can practice many things at once and be proficient or practice one thing and be a master.

This has no impact on picking a counterpick stage, but your time is better spent practicing to get better overall so that you win the first match, i.e. the most important match to win.

Picking Frigate Orpheon isn't like switching from ROB to Ness. I'm still playing my character and getting "better overall" (whatever that means), and at the same time I'm getting better at a stage that most people don't play.

I get so excited when I play people that are neutral happy because I know it's tons easier to beat them than it is to beat someone like Iggy. I never know what Iggy is going to take me to if I beat him on the neutral, but someone like Zjinn I never have to worry about. I win one game, and I win the set, since he'll never beat me on my counterpicks because he doesn't practice them. He has to beat me on one of the flat, unobtrusive stages, and then has to beat me on a stage tailor made to screw him over. Who has the advantage?

The better player will win on the neutral all the time, so picking a weird stage to your advantage is fine and all, but if he's better than you winning that one match isn't going to matter.

Winning one match always matters. How do people not understand how important it is to always win on your counterpick?

To quote vidjo after telling him about beating everyone in my pools by taking them to Green Greens at FC:

Dude, it's sooooooo important to win on your counterpick, you don't even know.

Vidjo did well, and counterpicked Corneria and Mute City all the time.

Mew2King did well, and counterpicked to FD with Marth against space animals all the time just so he could chain grab.

Bum did well, and counterpicked to Jungle Japes and Brinstar all the time.

Forward did well, and counterpicked to Jungle Japes all the time.

Hell, every Peach player that ever placed highly counterpicked to Mute City several times in their career.

People had counterpicks in Melee too, even at high level play. It just so happened that a lot of them counterpicked to the "neutral" stages that gave them an advantage. You think Foxes were picking Pokémon Stadium because it was green? They picked it because of the low ceiling and walls for infinites. Jiggs picked DL64 so it wouldn't die. Marth loved Yoshi's Story so he could KO people easily with a tipper through the platform, and a hit at low % allowed him to edgeguard (his greatest strength). Ice Climbers picked FD for obvious reasons, and Captain Falcon avoided FoD like the plague.

Counterpicks have always, and will always, be used at top level play because the top level players don't think like this. They aren't scrubs, they don't hold themselves back.

I'm not saying don't couterpick good stages, I'm saying don't practice on counter pick in which you have a built in strategy only accesible via that counterpick, otherwise people will have an edge since they've dedicated all of their time to their character and playstyle.

Again, you're still playing your character on your counterpick. I still do the same stuff I normally do on Frigate, Jungle Japes, and Luigi's Mansion. I just have other things to go along with it here.

Besides, even if your argument is "playing on neutrals makes you naturally better" (it doesn't), and as such you shouldn't spend your Brawl time playing on counterpicks... you can't deny that winning your counterpick is important (hell, what happens if someone double blinds you and gets a matchup in their favor?), so your advice should be "play more Brawl", not "don't play counterpicks".

Winning your counterpick is important, but if you win the first match it shouldn't matter.

I picked Brinstar with Jiggs for christ's sakes.

If I win the first match, it's even MORE important I win on my CP.

I have rarely lost a set that I won the first game in, but I've seen it happen to the top players countless times.... the games are super close, and counterpicking a neutral is as ******** as licking a light socket. Unless you're so brain dead that playing on stages with moving parts and outside factors gives you a headache, take the advantage when you get it.

 

[BIG C]

Picking Frigate Orpheon isn't like switching from ROB to Ness. I'm still playing my character and getting "better overall" (whatever that means), and at the same time I'm getting better at a stage that most people don't play.

I get so excited when I play people that are neutral happy because I know it's tons easier to beat them than it is to beat someone like Iggy. I never know what Iggy is going to take me to if I beat him on the neutral, but someone like Zjinn I never have to worry about. I win one game, and I win the set, since he'll never beat me on my counterpicks because he doesn't practice them. He has to beat me on one of the flat, unobtrusive stages, and then has to beat me on a stage tailor made to screw him over. Who has the advantage?



Winning one match always matters. How do people not understand how important it is to always win on your counterpick?

To quote vidjo after telling him about beating everyone in my pools by taking them to Green Greens at FC:



Vidjo did well, and counterpicked Corneria and Mute City all the time.

Mew2King did well, and counterpicked to FD with Marth against space animals all the time just so he could chain grab.

Bum did well, and counterpicked to Jungle Japes and Brinstar all the time.

Forward did well, and counterpicked to Jungle Japes all the time.

Hell, every Peach player that ever placed highly counterpicked to Mute City several times in their career.

People had counterpicks in Melee too, even at high level play. It just so happened that a lot of them counterpicked to the "neutral" stages that gave them an advantage. You think Foxes were picking Pokémon Stadium because it was green? They picked it because of the low ceiling and walls for infinites. Jiggs picked DL64 so it wouldn't die. Marth loved Yoshi's Story so he could KO people easily with a tipper through the platform, and a hit at low % allowed him to edgeguard (his greatest strength). Ice Climbers picked FD for obvious reasons, and Captain Falcon avoided FoD like the plague.

Counterpicks have always, and will always, be used at top level play because the top level players don't think like this. They aren't scrubs, they don't hold themselves back.



Again, you're still playing your character on your counterpick. I still do the same stuff I normally do on Frigate, Jungle Japes, and Luigi's Mansion. I just have other things to go along with it here.

Besides, even if your argument is "playing on neutrals makes you naturally better" (it doesn't), and as such you shouldn't spend your Brawl time playing on counterpicks... you can't deny that winning your counterpick is important (hell, what happens if someone double blinds you and gets a matchup in their favor?), so your advice should be "play more Brawl", not "don't play counterpicks".



If I win the first match, it's even MORE important I win on my CP.

I have rarely lost a set that I won the first game in, but I've seen it happen to the top players countless times.... the games are super close, and counterpicking a neutral is as ******** as licking a light socket. Unless you're so brain dead that playing on stages with moving parts and outside factors gives you a headache, take the advantage when you get it.

OR PPL DON'T LIKE TO HAVE A STAGE WIN FOR THEM AND WANT TO DO IT ON THEIR OWN WITH THEIR CHAR/PLAYSTLE!!!

 

[Kel]

Practice the game, not the stages. End topic.

Oh, ****. I wasn't aware that the stages weren't a part of the game. I guess all of these janky stages I keep seeing come from Overswarm-Land. Overswarm, stop making these stupid stages pop up where I have to have overall-skill to win!

 

[Overswarm]

OR PPL DON'T LIKE TO HAVE A STAGE WIN FOR THEM AND WANT TO DO IT ON THEIR OWN WITH THEIR CHAR/PLAYSTLE!!!

 

[clowsui]

Again, you're still playing your character on your counterpick. I still do the same stuff I normally do on Frigate, Jungle Japes, and Luigi's Mansion. I just have other things to go along with it here.

BigC conveniently ignored this.

 

[Doctor X]

Lulz. Historical scrubs.

 

[Zjiin]

but someone like Zjinn I never have to worry about. I win one game, and I win the set, since he'll never beat me on my counterpicks because he doesn't practice them. He has to beat me on one of the flat, unobtrusive stages, and then has to beat me on a stage tailor made to screw him over. Who has the advantage?

Wow, way to make your self look like a dumbass. I play on CPs all the time, and you can ask people i play with in friendlies, I usually have a large selection of random on. You're just too narrow minded to understand that i am not opting for more neutral stages for my own benefit, because unlike you, i am trying to help the community and not my own wallet. If I have to play a low tier character form now on in tournaments just to gain more push for more balanced stages in tournaments, i'll never play snake again. I like CPs probably more than I like neutrals, and use them myself.

For the last time, I don't have a hard time playing on these stages. That doesnt' mean they should be in tournament play. It makes you look pretty ignorant when i have to answer your posts with the same words over and over.

Don't think you're some kind of smash genius becasue this less competitive version of smash came out, and all of a sudden you can actually do something more than fail horribly.

 

[Overswarm]

I played Melee specifically to prepare for Brawl; Kel and I both started playing at the same time for the same reason. Prepare for the next installment so we can win then. Working out pretty well.

I also made top 32 at worst at every tournament I've ever gone to with the exception of the two FC events. I didn't "fail horribly". I wasn't a bad Melee player, I was well known, I contributed to the community, and I rarely lost on my counterpick.

But you won all the Melee tournaments, you're such a big name and all. I guess that does kinda shut me up


I've seen you play on counterpicks. You don't practice them. Playing and practicing counterpicks are different.

 

[Doctor X]

For the last time, I don't have a hard time playing on these stages. That doesnt' mean they should be in tournament play. It makes you look pretty ignorant when i have to answer your posts with the same words over and over.

Nobody has the right to just "decide" what should and should not be in tournament play-- especially in this situation, where there is a whole lot of bias as to what stages are "fair" and what aren't. The game itself should make what is broken and what is not easily and obviously apparent, like it does with items and some stages. Again, when counterpicking strategies grant literal guaranteed wins-- Melee Fox on Temple or Pipes, for example-- then we know that stage should be banned.

Seeing as you're somebody who voluntarily picked Pipes against a Falco, and not only that insisted on sitting around on the right side of the stage-- and thinks his loss is anybody's fault but his own-- I really doubt you're anywhere near as adept at handling counterpicks as you pretend to be.

Don't think you're some kind of smash genius becasue this less competitive version of smash came out, and all of a sudden you can actually do something more than fail horribly.

I'll wager he knows more about either of these games than you do. I've also hardly heard of you doing anything in the Melee scene, so I'm not entirely sure where the hell you think you're getting the right to talk.

 

[clowsui]

inb4I've never heard of you either DoctorX

 

[Zjiin]

I played Melee specifically to prepare for Brawl

LOL

If practicing these stages is making you a better player, then how come you lost to KirKQ in pools in Rob dittos? Shouldn't you be more knowledgeable about your character against someone who admits he has very little brawl practice?

 

[Doctor X]

inb4I've never heard of you either DoctorX

I never won anything either, but why should that revoke my (or Overswarm's) right to talk but not his?

I'll do Melee money matches if I have to.

 

[Zjiin]

Seeing as you're somebody who voluntarily picked Pipes against a Falco, and not only that insisted on sitting around on the right side of the stage-- and thinks his loss is anybody's fault but his own-- I really doubt you're anywhere near as adept at handling counterpicks as you pretend to be.

Where do you get this information? I said it was my own fault during the match, after the match, and ever since with a smile. I learned my lesson and that was that. So why do i think it's anybody's fault other than my own?

 

[Overswarm]

LOL

If practicing these stages is making you a better player, then how come you lost to KirKQ in pools in Rob dittos? Shouldn't you be more knowledgeable about your character against someone who admits he has very little brawl practice?

Because I wanted a $5 MM

 

[Zjiin]

Because I wanted a $5 MM

Johns, you lost, and got all worked up when he wouldn't give you a MM. Accept your loss with some dignity.

[EDIT] I'm oging to drop out of this thread right now, becasue as much as i love debating, we're both getting petty over this, and i really don't see anyone coming out on top.

 

[Overswarm]

Johns, you lost, and got all worked up when he wouldn't give you a MM. Accept your loss with some dignity.

[EDIT] I'm oging to drop out of this thread right now, becasue as much as i love debating, we're both getting petty over this, and i really don't see anyone coming out on top.

He really did beat me, that's not what I'm debating; but I don't like ROB dittos and Kirkq has experience with that matchup (while I do not), so I wanted to MM him and go MK. He just wouldn't.