Smash and Coffee - June 7th Winona Lake, IN

[Doctor X]

Where do you get this information? I said it was my own fault during the match, after the match, and ever since with a smile. I learned my lesson and that was that. So why do i think it's anybody's fault other than my own?

Maybe it's the context in which you posted that video in order to prove the stage should be banned. I guess I was wrong?

 

[Sliq]

The point I'm making is if you aren't good, you should be practicing your character and not practicing a stage. Furthermore, this game is so new that people can't sit down and say, "I've already mastered my character in every conceivable way, so time master other things."

I'm not saying don't practice or pick weird stages, I'm saying know where the priority lies when it comes to advancing your game.

And the first match will always be the most important match to win. Always.

 

[Doctor X]

The point I'm making is if you aren't good, you should be practicing your character and not practicing a stage. Furthermore, this game is so new that people can't sit down and say, "I've already mastered my character in every conceivable way, so time master other things."

I'm not saying don't practice or pick weird stages, I'm saying know where the priority lies when it comes to advancing your game.

An excellent point. I don't think anybody can argue with that. But banning stages that shouldn't necessarily be banned according to some scrubby preconceived notion of "fair play" is not really an acceptable way to enforce this idea, is it?

 

[Sliq]

An excellent point. I don't think anybody can argue with that. But banning stages that shouldn't necessarily be banned according to some scrubby preconceived notion of "fair play" is not really an acceptable way to enforce this idea, is it?

I haven't mentioned stage banning in any of my posts at all.

 

[Overswarm]

They're both important, Sliq. You're never done learning with either one. Priority lies in learning whatever helps you win, so... learn what helps you win.

I haven't mentioned stage banning in any of my posts at all. I just think we should ban everything

Oh really?! Read more carefully sir!

 

[BIG C]

ok basically your guy's side is saying we play on these because we don't know if they are broken well in that case we should play on all the stages that were insta banned by ppl like one's that were banned in the previous game. so let's all just put hyrule and big blue on in the tourny because we don't know if the same broken strats still apply.

 

[Overswarm]

ok basically your guy's side is saying we play on these because we don't know if they are broken well in that case we should play on all the stages that were insta banned by ppl like one's that were banned in the previous game. so let's all just put hyrule and big blue on in the tourny because we don't know if the same broken strats still apply.

Some people did.



Some stages are obvious bans because, well, they're unplayable in a tournament scene. I think it'd be awesome if Spear Pillar worked, but reversing my controls is going too far.

Every stage is looked into though.

 

[Sliq]

Man this thread is like going a majillion miles per hour and I can't even reply to people without **** being everywhere.

I'm not saying counterpicking isn't important or stage knowledge isn't important, I'm saying it isn't AS IMPORTANT as playing well.

 

[Zjiin]

ok basically your guy's side is saying we play on these because we don't know if they are broken well in that case we should play on all the stages that were insta banned by ppl like one's that were banned in the previous game. so let's all just put hyrule and big blue on in the tourny because we don't know if the same broken strats still apply.

I agree. In all honetsy, for these tournaments I say we put on Hyrule, Summit, Skyworld, Shadow Moses, New Pork City, Port Town, and PS2 on top of the list. I don't think the potential of these have been fully unlocked.

 

[BIG C]

I just don't see how hanenbow, green hill zone, and mario circuit are deemed playable in tourny with you guy's. hanenbow should be called let's camp with pit green hill zone should just be called let's camp with anyone cuz of the general shape of the stage and the checkpoints, and mario circuit the cars are there like every 2 seconds and there are 2 places that cars don't go so those are auto camp zones AND it has walk off sides.

there are more i have problems with these three are the biggest ones though. and the first 3 i could think of.

 

[Overswarm]

I agree. In all honetsy, for these tournaments I say we put on Hyrule, Summit, Skyworld, Shadow Moses, New Pork City, Port Town, and PS2 on top of the list. I don't think the potential of these have been fully unlocked.

I agree with some of those, actually.



I still don't get something though... how can you guys willingly advocate the banning of stages simply because you don't like them? You don't even have evidence for over half the stages you'd want banned!

 

[Zjiin]

I agree with some of those, actually.

Then let's do it. If we're going to be testing out levels to the fullest (how full is full?) then we might as well do it right.

 

[BIG C]

uhh i think stages that ppl ban cuz they don't like 'em is cuz 1) they don't like 'em for a good reason and 2) the general population of the community has the same problem with them.

Majority = win

Minority = Lose

 

[Doctor X]

I just don't see how hanenbow, green hill zone, and mario circuit are deemed playable in tourny with you guy's. hanenbow should be called let's camp with pit green hill zone should just be called let's camp with anyone cuz of the general shape of the stage and the checkpoints, and mario circuit the cars are there like every 2 seconds and there are 2 places that cars don't go so those are auto camp zones AND it has walk off sides.

there are more i have problems with these three are the biggest ones though. and the first 3 i could think of.

I just don't understand what makes these strategies so broken that the stages need to be banned. I mean, if it gets to the point where such things are obviously and literally unbeatable-- Melee Fox on Temple for example-- then yeah, of course we'd ban them. But right now? They're simply strategies that you don't personally like.

 

[Zjiin]

I still don't get something though... how can you guys willingly advocate the banning of stages simply because you don't like them? You don't even have evidence for over half the stages you'd want banned!

There are reasons, but there will never be reasons enough to that don't get countered by the arguements, don't get (insert action) or learn the stage.

No one is saying they don't like them. I don't know where that came from.

 

[Sliq]

Oh really?! Read more carefully sir!

I don't remember typing that at all! I call shenanigans on this one.

 

[Overswarm]

Then let's do it. If we're going to be testing out levels to the fullest (how full is full?) then we might as well do it right.

We are.

We just don't have all stages on at once; DastrnMarco is a sly guy.

 

[BIG C]

im still with zjiin all stages on hell why not ALL STAGES ON RANDOM it'll be awesome.

and also it's not that i don't like the strats it's that the strats allow someone of less skill to obviously beat someone with more skill as in the 2-1 scenario.

 

[Kel]

uhh i think stages that ppl ban cuz they don't like 'em is cuz 1) they don't like 'em for a good reason and 2) the general population of the community has the same problem with them.

Majority = win

Minority = Lose

I lose to Lucario all the time. I think he should be banned because I don't like him. Not because I haven't looked into his play-style, strengths and weaknesses. I mean, I don't like him for a good reason. BloodHawk and Mendoza placed higher than 90% of the people at the IN tournament so the general population must hate Lucario.

Majority win= let's ban Lucario.

 

[Zjiin]

im still with zjiin all stages on hell why not ALL STAGES ON RANDOM it'll be awesome.

and also it's not that i don't like the strats it's that the strats allow someone of less skill to obviously beat someone with more skill as in the 2-1 scenario.

All random is bad. places like warioware and spear pillar just cant be on, even though i love spear pillar, lol.

 

[Sliq]

I lose to Lucario all the time. I think he should be banned because I don't like him. Not because I haven't looked into his play-style, strengths and weaknesses. I mean, I don't like him for a good reason. BloodHawk and Mendoza placed higher than 90% of the people at the IN tournament so the general population must hate Lucario.

Majority win= let's ban Lucario.

Lucario, moar liek Spikehands McDougal, amirite?

Also, arguing that Spear Pillar shouldn't be on because it inverts controls is hypocritical, since, I mean, if you practice the stage you should get competent at playing with reverse controls, putting you at an obvious advantage against someone who doesn't practice with reverse controls, so when that happens, you ruin their crap.

Of coruse, practicing reverse controls is ********, but you don't ban something for being ******** i.e. disliking it, so Spear Pillar should be on. Who's to say you can't practice playing with the screen upside down or reverse controls. No one. Only problem is it doesn't benefit you at all on ANY OTHER STAGE IN THE GAME.

Plus the lasers are easy to avoid, and Pokemon is cool n' ****. SPACIAL REND *****.

 

[Zjiin]

Question.

If the neutral stages are more beneficial to some characters more than others, shouldn't the neutral list be open to debate where we might make it more balanced for everyone?

 

[BIG C]

I lose to Lucario all the time. I think he should be banned because I don't like him. Not because I haven't looked into his play-style, strengths and weaknesses. I mean, I don't like him for a good reason. BloodHawk and Mendoza placed higher than 90% of the people at the IN tournament so the general population must hate Lucario.

Majority win= let's ban Lucario.

because you know you as one person = the majority I, of course speak of all the major tournies not having these ******** stages on. look at the biggest brawl tourny planned yet FAST how many stages do they have on? 14. I wonder why they would wanna only put that many stages on hmmmm maybe to please the general population? but idk maybe they are just guys who don't like stages.

and i have said before MARIO CIRCUIT and WARIO WARE are my 2 FAVORITE stages in Brawl. but that does not make them tourny playable.

 

[Overswarm]

im still with zjiin all stages on hell why not ALL STAGES ON RANDOM it'll be awesome.

and also it's not that i don't like the strats it's that the strats allow someone of less skill to obviously beat someone with more skill as in the 2-1 scenario.

There are 5 degrees of skill.

Spacing - the ability to control the space around your character in such a way that you always have good optoins

Mindgames- the ability to trick your opponent into reading you incorrectly and creating an opening for you to attack without you putting yourself in danger

Technical Ability- the ability to press buttons accurately in such a fashion that the desired outcome is achieved

Creativity- the ability to do things not by emulation but by creation

Adaptability - the ability to change your playstyle as outside influences, such as opponent's playstyle or a stage's layout, to something entirely new that hasn't been done before by compiling existing knowledge


You ignore the last two. You see someone that has great technical ability, mindgames, and spacing, and think he should win. Then someone who is very creative and has adaptability takes the opposing player to a stage like Green Hill Zone. Suddenly, the opposing player gets destroyed. Nothing out of the ordinary happened here; the original player ignored the last two elements of skill, and lost because of it. He would lose just as viciously if his opponent counterpicked him with a character he hasn't ever played before.

Question.

If the neutral stages are more beneficial to some characters more than others, shouldn't the neutral list be open to debate where we might make it more balanced for everyone?

It is.

because you know you as one person = the majority I, of course speak of all the major tournies not having these ******** stages on. look at the biggest brawl tourny planned yet FAST how many stages do they have on? 14. I wonder why they would wanna only put that many stages on hmmmm maybe to please the general population.

Actually, the largest Brawl tournament was online and held by Wifi Wars and Smashboards. It had a lot of stages on that you hate.

But regardless, if FAST 1 had a different stage list, you'd simply complain at how janky it was. You're using it as evidence because it fits your goals, not because you think it is a determining factor in what is right.

 

[Sliq]

Question.

If the neutral stages are more beneficial to some characters more than others, shouldn't the neutral list be open to debate where we might make it more balanced for everyone?

Please get rid of ****ing Lylat Cruise so I can auto cancel my ****.

 

[BIG C]

you know cuz it's really hard to stand under and hit a checkpoint I'm sorry camping isn't a skill. and there is no reason that I should beat darkrain in melee but you know what I might be able to if i took him to poke floats or something.


look at it like this. If I were to hold a tournament and only have the 6 "neutrals" on as stage selection most people would still probably come probably even some of you guys'. but if you guys were to a hold a tournament with none of the stages that are flat with platforms who would come????

YOU GUYS.

 

[Zjiin]

Please get rid of ****ing Lylat Cruise so I can auto cancel my ****.

If anything, we should be expanding the stages, not removing more.

 

[Doctor X]

Question.

If the neutral stages are more beneficial to some characters more than others, shouldn't the neutral list be open to debate where we might make it more balanced for everyone?

Exactly. A lot of people are just assuming that what makes a stage "neutral" should be obvious, but it really isn't and never was.

 

[Sliq]

If anything, we should be expanding the stages, not removing more.

WRYYYYYYYYYYYYY

I only get one stage ban, and both Lylat Cruise and Yoshi's Island ruin auto canceling. 2 stages - 1 ban = 1 stupid stage that makes me sad and cry and poop everywhere.

 

[Overswarm]

you know cuz it's really hard to stand under and hit a checkpoint I'm sorry camping isn't a skill.

Camping is a skill. I know it is because I'm better at it than anyone else. It took practice to do that.

And yeah, standing under a checkpoint IS hard. Wait til you see the matches of me vs. Blood Hawk.

and there is no reason that I should beat darkrain in melee but you know what I might be able to if i took him to poke floats or something.

You wouldn't have beaten Darkrain even if you took him to pokefloats. if you did, it would be because you played better.

look at it like this. If I were to hold a tournament and only have the 6 "neutrals" on as stage selection most people would still probably come probably even some of you guys'. but if you guys were to a hold a tournament with none of the stages that are flat with platforms who would come????

YOU GUYS.

There's like, 4 of you. Most people at the tournament didn't care. Actually, I take that back and use this as a literary device rather than hit the backspace key. Most people did care. They enjoyed it.

Besides, I'm not interested solely in numbers. They are important, but it's more important to have a competitive game. If you keep blocking off sections of the lake, it won't be deep for long.

WRYYYYYYYYYYYYY

I only get one stage ban, and both Lylat Cruise and Yoshi's Island ruin auto canceling. 2 stages - 1 ban = 1 stupid stage that makes me sad and cry and poop everywhere.

Auto-canceling is only effected if you're going uphill. Going downhill actually makes the timing easier for autocanceling. Just FYI.

 

[Doctor X]

you know cuz it's really hard to stand under and hit a checkpoint I'm sorry camping isn't a skill. and there is no reason that I should beat darkrain in melee but you know what I might be able to if i took him to poke floats or something.

Defining what is "skill" and what isn't is not only arbitrary, it's basically the hallmark of a scrub. If you took Darkrain to poke floats and beat him, he could take you to whatever stage he wanted and tear your *** apart third round. If you still beat him then, well, who says you shouldn't have beaten him?

The only test we have of who should win and who shouldn't is the game itself. We should do what we can to make it as accurate a test as possible. The only difference between your side and ours is that our side takes into account knowledge of and experience on more than just flat stages arbitrarily defined as "neutral."

look at it like this. If I were to hold a tournament and only have the 6 "neutrals" on as stage selection most people would still probably come probably even some of you guys'. but if you guys were to a hold a tournament with none of the stages that are flat with platforms who would come????

YOU GUYS.

If you held a tournament that only used neutrals, I'm sure your turnout would also suffer. People like counterpicks. You aren't some kind of overwhelming majority though you seem to think you are.

 

[Joshu]

I totally agree with people in this tread I mean fight people not stages right?

It's like when I'm playing street fighter and someone starts using hadoken I pause the game, swing my controller around like a flail and proceed to beat them repeatedly with it while shouting "IT'S CALLED STREET FIGHTER YOU ****ING SCRUB NOT FIREBALL FIGHTER JESUS CHRIST I DON'T WANT TO ****ING FIGHT YOUR GOD ****ED FIREBALLS WE SHOULD BE FIGHTING HAND TO HAND THAT'S WHAT FIGHTING IS AND THAT'S WHAT SKILL IS NOT JUST SPAMMING SOME MAGICAL BALL OF ENERGY"

srsly lrn2play guys

 

[BIG C]

yea but im not just talking about at that tournament the(farthest) east side of the MW has always enjoyed the dumb stages. When no one else has liked them or had them on. and how is putting more campariffic stages making the game a better competitive game?

my point was if i beat darkrain on poke floats it wasnt because i was better cuz he is 1000 times better than me at the game. and i don't think stages that let the less skilled person win should be on in tourny.

 

[Overswarm]

I totally agree with people in this tread I mean fight people not stages right?

It's like when I'm playing street fighter and someone starts using hadoken I pause the game, swing my controller around like a flail and proceed to beat them repeatedly with it while shouting "IT'S CALLED STREET FIGHTER YOU ****ING SCRUB NOT FIREBALL FIGHTER JESUS CHRIST I DON'T WANT TO ****ING FIGHT YOUR GOD ****ED FIREBALLS WE SHOULD BE FIGHTING HAND TO HAND THAT'S WHAT FIGHTING IS AND THAT'S WHAT SKILL IS NOT JUST SPAMMING SOME MAGICAL BALL OF ENERGY"

srsly lrn2play guys

every time I see a post by Joshu, I get excited.

 

[Sliq]

I totally agree with people in this tread I mean fight people not stages right?

It's like when I'm playing street fighter and someone starts using hadoken I pause the game, swing my controller around like a flail and proceed to beat them repeatedly with it while shouting "IT'S CALLED STREET FIGHTER YOU ****ING SCRUB NOT FIREBALL FIGHTER JESUS CHRIST I DON'T WANT TO ****ING FIGHT YOUR GOD ****ED FIREBALLS WE SHOULD BE FIGHTING HAND TO HAND THAT'S WHAT FIGHTING IS AND THAT'S WHAT SKILL IS NOT JUST SPAMMING SOME MAGICAL BALL OF ENERGY"

srsly lrn2play guys

I don't know if Joshu read the thread. We aren't talking about Street Fighter Joshu. We're talking about Barlw.

Also, I ask that people read my post about Spear Pillar if they haven't already.

I'd also like to thank Overswarm--maining someone who is not soley dependent on auto canceling--for patronizing me. I don't even get how patronizing even works in this situation, since patrons pay for **** to happen, and like Overswarm hasn't given me any sort of money. The Medicci's were patrons of art and ****, and Overswarm isn't a patron for anything, but I'm supposed to use the word patronizing for some reason. Give me money to make art Overswarm so this world makes sense to me.

 

[Doctor X]

yea but im not just talking about at that tournament the(farthest) east side of the MW has always enjoyed the dumb stages. When no one else has liked them or had them on. and how is putting more campariffic stages making the game a better competitive game?

How is turning them off helping make it a better competitive game?

my point was if i beat darkrain on poke floats it wasnt because i was better cuz he is 1000 times better than me at the game. and i don't think stages that let the less skilled person win should be on in tourny.

If he's that much better than you, you won't beat him on poke floats.

Besides, are you aware that poke floats was once a neutral stage, too?

And I agree with Sliq that Yoshi's and Lylat should not be neutral due to the auto-cancelling hindrance. I'm not saying they should be banned, though... that's taking it a little too far.

 

[Overswarm]

I don't know if Joshu read the thread. We aren't talking about Street Fighter Joshu. We're talking about Barlw.

Also, I ask that people read my post about Spear Pillar if they haven't already.

I'd also like to thank Overswarm--maining someone who is not soley dependent on auto canceling--for patronizing me. I don't even get how patronizing even works in this situation, since patrons pay for **** to happen, and like Overswarm hasn't given me any sort of money. The Medicci's were patrons of art and ****, and Overswarm isn't a patron for anything, but I'm supposed to use the word patronizing for some reason. Give me money to make art Overswarm so this world makes sense to me.

I play characters other than ROB, I had to learn to deal with the slopes when I play Ness.

But yeah, Ganon sucks so you should get used to disadvantages.

 

[Sliq]

I think Delfino, Castle Siege, and Halberd are more neutral than Lylat.

 

[Cosmo!]

hay overswarm ill beat u on ur gay stage :D

 

[Zjiin]

Wouldn't the best thing to do to get everyone as best they can on the legal stages, just make all of the CPs neutral?