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SINGLES Lucario Match-Ups and Directory! Mario will brb saving a princess

iRJi

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Ok, I want to again congratulate everyone for finishing all of the MU’s. It took a while, it was fun, and it was boring, but we made it through everything. I have 2 new projects we can work on, and I thought long and hard on these 2 and how to make them work to its full potential. This first project I am presenting is something we tried to do in the past, and ended up incomplete. I felt that the idea was very strong, but the way it was laid out was a bit unorganized. After some revisions, I soon realized that this idea could go along way for everyone if they participated in the events. Our next Projects is:

Match Up Discussions: Doubles

The way the Metagame revolves around doubles is important. Most people who go to tourneys play in doubles as well. While the normal MU play exists, Doubles is a lot more than just MU’s. It involves teamwork, and it is very complicated on choice making. I personally, as well as some other players who main Lucario and/or reading this, take doubles very seriously. It is a fun way to play brawl, and should be invested in as often as possible. While other then a select few will have problems at first talking about this, this project can blow up into something huge. You do not need to be an expert to put in your feelings, ideals, and hypothesis about how to handle situations to talk about them here. All input is valuable, as all input can be analyzed and can be very useful, even if it is very small.

The layout will go something like this:

A new Mu chart will be uploaded to the front page, right under the current singles MU chart. This Mu chart will not be by ratios, but by ratings (1-10, on increments of .5) 1 being the worse and 10 being the best. Like the normal MU’s it followed a routine in terms of what we talked about. Doubles will work the same way. The routine is:

How the character supports Lucario/How Lucario supports the character
Team Combos/strategies
Team combinations that can hurt them/Help them/Stages

I will also like to state that The Anubis strategy should be taken into account for team strategies, as it is one of the most viable lucario strats available, and it is quite devastating when it’s done. A lot of people stat that Lucario is an bottom S tier/ Normal A tier character in doubles because of this. HOWEVER********* This is not his ONLY viable strat, as in teams he is an amazing character without it. I would also like to point out that his aura boost both ways are very manageable, so I would not like to see people thinking that he is bad because of his aura. All of the myths are cleared with that statement.

I will not start this tonight, but this is the official statement that this is our next project, as will start very shortly.
 

phi1ny3

Not the Mama
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He also makes for a decent stock tank with that great momentum canceling and a pretty long recovery especially if your partner is willing to fend off edgeguarders, which also rewards you a bit for surviving for obvious reasons. On the not-so-good side though, it does tend to weaken your power from stock debuffs.
 

culexus・wau

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Unorganized thoughtstorm vvvvvvvv

Aurasphere is an amazing support projectile. both charged and uncharged depending on the partner. Long distance kill moves tend to be useful in teams.

Lucs no slouch at saving his partner offstage imo and if you train your partner enough I'm sure he/she would be able to SDI a dair if needed.

We absolutely must discuss the double lucario team however.

The joy of seeing your opponents cringed face when he has to deal with BAS on two vertical levels and seeing his horror when you randomly throw fsmashes in his direction is the one of the most pleasant feelings in the world.

I think that a lucario definetely flows better in teams if he is the 1st one to die [in his team that is].

His best partners from my experience happen to be Metaknight, G&W, Toon Link, Snake, and Wario [in no particular order]

and teams I'm IFFY about are Diddy [has major trouble in Finals/Best out of 5] and Pit [I feel like the team could be better based on the experiances I've had while playing with Pits I didn't work well with]
 

phi1ny3

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I'd think fair is a good partner saver offstage imo, just flick them with minor damage and they're able to use their recovery without the fear of dying at higher percents really, and it's pretty quick too.
 

Vionce

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I'd think fair is a good partner saver offstage imo, just flick them with minor damage and they're able to use their recovery without the fear of dying at higher percents really, and it's pretty quick too.
I really don't see how fair would be better than uair or dair especially when fair is used for gimping. Maybe if ur partner is close, but can't quite make it, fair is good, but if the person is way under the stage, I'd rather use uair.
 

Kitamerby

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I really don't see how fair would be better than uair or dair especially when fair is used for gimping. Maybe if ur partner is close, but can't quite make it, fair is good, but if the person is way under the stage, I'd rather use uair.
Dair will probably kill your partner lol.

Uair might kill too, but it's probably a better option than dair, and probably our best option all the way to high %.

When you get into the %s that uair kills, then you should start using Fair. At higher %s, it sends people at a reeeally high angle that's pretty easy to recover from without worrying about them accidentally dying.


Not like any of this matters. Lucario is absolute **** in doubles, and if you're in a position to use any of these moves, you missed on the CSS. You went 2 spaces too far right, and 1 space too far down. Let's go back to singles discussions. Quite a few were majorly underdiscussed.
 

Kitamerby

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This is true
In Vegas/Bad Lucario land. Lucs not the absolute best in doubles but he can hold his own :/
It's true everywhere. :/

Lucario is a bad character, especially in doubles, where you're going to be completely outclassed and constantly swarmed by wave after wave of better characters.
 

Zucco

Smash Master
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Kita you are a moron. Lucario is much better in doubles then you think, in fact his definitely in the Top 10 characters for doubles. Stop being bad at the game and get to a decent level before you start spouting nonsense.
 

culexus・wau

Purchased premium only to change name ><
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I just thought this was relevant.


and to continue with doubles stuffff

Luc's uthrow and Fthrow are pretty snazzy for team set-ups.

Luc can almost act/shield instantly after the throw which means your partner can link a move right after. :3
 

iRJi

Smash Champion
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Sep 9, 2008
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Lucario is much better in doubles then you think, in fact his definitely in the Top 10 characters for doubles.
This. The people who think Lucario is bad in doubles are the people who aren't strong enough to normally see his benefits, or the area which they are in are not strong in doubles/Lucario in general (Most cases). Lucario on the EC in doubles is actually one of the most feared characters in doubles overall, and it is very well known over here that Lucario is in fact top 10 in doubles. To be honest, if Lucario was a bad character in doubles, I wouldn't even bother making the project that is about to start in about a day or so if he was absolute ****. This is just another good reason why this Doubles MU chart is needed.
 

Kitamerby

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Kita you are a moron. Lucario is much better in doubles then you think, in fact his definitely in the Top 10 characters for doubles. Stop being bad at the game and get to a decent level before you start spouting nonsense.
Top 10 for doubles.

Meta Knight
Meta Knight
Meta Knight
Meta Knight
Meta Knight
Meta Knight
Meta Knight
Meta Knight
Meta Knight
Snake

I don't see Lucario in that list.
 

RT

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Lucario can go either ways in doubles. If paired with the right character, he can be absolute ****. If his partner can stock tank very well, then Lucario will have a constant small Aura boost. The only think Lucario would have to watch out for is getting ganged up on, but even then, it's not a terrible thing. And Lucario would probably need some occasional saving from edgeguards.

Case in point, this match. MK+Lucario is pretty good if both players are competent enough.

You just have to know what you're doing. Lee Martin goes from dying first to ****** the team almost single-handedly.
 

iRJi

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Lucario can go either ways in doubles. If paired with the right character, he can be absolute ****. If his partner can stock tank very well, then Lucario will have a constant small Aura boost. The only think Lucario would have to watch out for is getting ganged up on, but even then, it's not a terrible thing. And Lucario would probably need some occasional saving from edgeguards.

Case in point, this match. MK+Lucario is pretty good if both players are competent enough.

You just have to know what you're doing. Lee Martin goes from dying first to ****** the team almost single-handedly.
That, is the Anubis strat i was talking about sir xD
 

MythTrainerInfinity

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Lucario can go either ways in doubles. If paired with the right character, he can be absolute ****. If his partner can stock tank very well, then Lucario will have a constant small Aura boost. The only think Lucario would have to watch out for is getting ganged up on, but even then, it's not a terrible thing. And Lucario would probably need some occasional saving from edgeguards.

Case in point, this match. MK+Lucario is pretty good if both players are competent enough.

You just have to know what you're doing. Lee Martin goes from dying first to ****** the team almost single-handedly.
OMG Lee Martin used the Air Walking tech at 1:23 :p

But yeah Luc in doubles... How well does double Lucario work?
 

iRJi

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Badly. Just like any team involving Luc.
So negative for something you might know little about lol. Sit around a while, and you might learn something about this.

Anyway, As soon as I can get a hold pf phil to do some of my needy work, we will start. Phil, if you see this, please jump on aim. If I am not on, ill just leave you a PM.
 

phi1ny3

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For the record I used to be like Kita, I thought Lucario really sucked in doubles. Now I'm more inclined to say that he's more mid-high capable in teams, the mere fact that he's been barely pickable against double MK/whatever tier ***** team you see says something to me, although the "Anubis Strat" I'm a bit apprehensive about (I want to see what happens to it when more people are aware of it or have played against it more when it goes more mainstream), I think it's a great strat at the moment.

Also, I'll be at work, so my contact time will be limited.
 

Kitamerby

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So negative for something you might know little about lol. Sit around a while, and you might learn something about this.

Anyway, As soon as I can get a hold pf phil to do some of my needy work, we will start. Phil, if you see this, please jump on aim. If I am not on, ill just leave you a PM.
Lucario is a terrible character and you should feel terrible for using him in the doubles environment.
 

iRJi

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For the record I used to be like Kita, I thought Lucario really sucked in doubles. Now I'm more inclined to say that he's more mid-high capable in teams, the mere fact that he's been barely pickable against double MK/whatever tier ***** team you see says something to me, although the "Anubis Strat" I'm a bit apprehensive about (I want to see what happens to it when more people are aware of it or have played against it more when it goes more mainstream), I think it's a great strat at the moment.

Also, I'll be at work, so my contact time will be limited.
Well the thing is, It is very known, actually. It's the point of it is very hard to stop. Hear me out.

Planking alone is hard to stop dependant on the character that is doing the planking, and normally it requires good timing to jump off and stop it. IN doubles, it is harder for that to happen since their is another person on the field on most occasions. The chances increase when your character can fly/multi jump because then it creates a state where you can stall if the problem arises, and also makes them harder to gimp too, which is why MK is one of the best to do it with. I talked about this with Zucco, I also have a semi tier list of best to worse character's to do it with. MK being number 1, Kirby being 2, so on and so forth. Of course I always take into account team strats when making the list, just incase you are unable to preform it, but overall if you pick the right stages, its almost impossible to stop without losing stocks in the process. I have many, many videos of me and my doublee's partner doing this with more then 1 character also, and I am going to upload them when the time comes. It is safe to say that this strat isn't for the moment, but it is a solid one. I don't like to speculate and add in more details of why he is good or bad, because I already know he is good in doubles, really good infact. Now it is just a matter of laying out the details so other people can see why.
 

DMG

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The Lucario planking strategy is good, but for the better teams out there it is quite stoppable. The problem is that you are asking the Lucario player to effectively 2 vs 1 the other team. This would not be an issue if you didn't have the regular issues in doubles like getting Juggled/pressured/punished more than usual.
 

RT

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The Lucario planking strategy is good, but for the better teams out there it is quite stoppable. The problem is that you are asking the Lucario player to effectively 2 vs 1 the other team. This would not be an issue if you didn't have the regular issues in doubles like getting Juggled/pressured/punished more than usual.
This. It really depends on the team you are facing. Dphat/Lee Martin tried it against Dojo/ADHD at Hobo 21 and well...it didn't work, to say the least. <_<
 

phi1ny3

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The Lucario planking strategy is good, but for the better teams out there it is quite stoppable. The problem is that you are asking the Lucario player to effectively 2 vs 1 the other team. This would not be an issue if you didn't have the regular issues in doubles like getting Juggled/pressured/punished more than usual.
Exactly, I think considering what traditional Lucario play in doubles used to be though, this has made his standing in team play a lot better than it was prior, when regardless of most strats, Lucario always ended up getting nerfed.

Oh and Kita isn't saying Lucario sucks in this thread (although he did say it in the social), he is saying that he thinks Lucario performs less than average in doubles though.
 

iRJi

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The Lucario planking strategy is good, but for the better teams out there it is quite stoppable. The problem is that you are asking the Lucario player to effectively 2 vs 1 the other team. This would not be an issue if you didn't have the regular issues in doubles like getting Juggled/pressured/punished more than usual.

This. It really depends on the team you are facing. Dphat/Lee Martin tried it against Dojo/ADHD at Hobo 21 and well...it didn't work, to say the least. <_<
It really depends on what characters you are going against. A character that has an equal opportunity to fight off stage as you if you is not going to make it work as well since you can't actually plank, but it's not a big deal. If such happens, you fight normal like any other team, and you will be fine.

Exactly, I think considering what traditional Lucario play in doubles used to be though, this has made his standing in team play a lot better than it was prior, when regardless of most strats, Lucario always ended up getting nerfed.
My personal opinion is that people make a big deal of Lucario's aura. Personally, I never worry about the aura, and contentrate on what needs to be done at what time. Each side of lucario has its flaws and uses. Being strong is a good trait, but it is not always the best thing, and the same goes for being weaker. It's more about adapting to what you need to do, at what time it needs to be done. Lucario's tools overall in a doubles format is what makes him an amazing character in it. It is by far not the aura boost that makes him/breaks him.
 

Zucco

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I summon Inui, THE DOUBLES GOD/GENIUS, to shine his opinion on Lucario in doubles! Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui Inui

hope it worked!
 

Col. Stauffenberg

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FFS.... Kita, let me be more direct with you.

You suck at this game and have sucked at it for as long as you've been playing. Instead of trying to find ways to get better you've been whining about your character nonstop for pretty much the entire year, as if what you say actually matters, when your opinions have always been subject to change whenever someone with the slightest hint of authority says otherwise, since you're too much of a tool to actually have your own opinion. You don't contribute in any meaningful way to strategy discussion, hell, right now you're practically trolling the matchup thread.

You're an eyesore on these boards and the next post I see from you here will be too soon.
 

Zucco

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FFS.... Kita, let me be more direct with you.

You suck at this game and have sucked at it for as long as you've been playing. Instead of trying to find ways to get better you've been whining about your character nonstop for pretty much the entire year, as if what you say actually matters, when your opinions have always been subject to change whenever someone with the slightest hint of authority says otherwise, since you're too much of a tool to actually have your own opinion. You don't contribute in any meaningful way to strategy discussion, hell, right now you're practically trolling the matchup thread.

You're an eyesore on these boards and the next post I see from you here will be too soon.
I love this guy.
 

Kitamerby

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FFS.... Kita, let me be more direct with you.

You suck at this game and have sucked at it for as long as you've been playing. Instead of trying to find ways to get better you've been whining about your character nonstop for pretty much the entire year, as if what you say actually matters, when your opinions have always been subject to change whenever someone with the slightest hint of authority says otherwise, since you're too much of a tool to actually have your own opinion. You don't contribute in any meaningful way to strategy discussion, hell, right now you're practically trolling the matchup thread.

You're an eyesore on these boards and the next post I see from you here will be too soon.
I love this guy.
 

Kitamerby

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Too soon.

Now, you wanna leave and let the adults talk?
About what? A metagame that is completely unsuitable for their character of choice?


It's a horrible idea to simply speed through our matchup discussions for the sole purpose of discussing a metagame in which the character of discussion is not only fail at, but has so many variables it's almost pointless to attempt to cover all of them.

Seriously, either do the matchup rediscussions simultaneously with this new project, or completely pretend this new project never existed and focus entirely on the matchup discussions. Those are really the best options. To half-*** a matchup thread for a doubles discussion is foolhardy. :\
 

phi1ny3

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We've tried making a separate doubles thread, iirc twice in fact. Nobody would post in it >:

This is the MU thread, we might have to suspend to talk about a singles MU, but we've pretty much done all the ones we wanted to cover.
 
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