SINGLES Lucario Match-Ups and Directory! Mario will brb saving a princess

[iRJi]

lol ICs are NOT 60:40 our favor, that's for sure.
Any place with well spaced plats is really good against them.

Meaning only Battlefield?

This is a constant issue that comes up with this MU. We can out play the **** out of IC's, we have stronger stages too. The problem is however, is if we win game 1 or not. We must must must must win game 1 for this MU. As for teh stages, your right, we need platforms. However, outside of battlefield and Brinstar, platforms are a little wonky, because the rest of the shield tends to be straight. We have smashville and a moving platform, but lets face it, it does go over the stage every 10 seconds or so, and it's not that hard to take control over the platform.

When it comes down to it, you need Battlefield and Lylat. You can pull it off on YI, but save that for the last choice. DO NOT PLAY ON FD OR SMASHVILLE. You have to camp, obviously. The one note I like to keep out and open is that our Dair beats their Uair, which is very very helpful. Stay above them at all times if you can. It makes it very hard for them to approach you since Bair has just ok-ish range and you can see a setup for it. AS beats the Blizzard wall, too.

I put this on a 60:40, and I might be the only one to do it, but its how I feel about it. It is so stage dependent, but also it heavily relies on if we win the first match or not.

 

[phi1ny3]

Meaning only Battlefield?

This is a constant issue that comes up with this MU. We can out play the **** out of IC's, we have stronger stages too. The problem is however, is if we win game 1 or not. We must must must must win game 1 for this MU. As for teh stages, your right, we need platforms. However, outside of battlefield and Brinstar, platforms are a little wonky, because the rest of the shield tends to be straight. We have smashville and a moving platform, but lets face it, it does go over the stage every 10 seconds or so, and it's not that hard to take control over the platform.

When it comes down to it, you need Battlefield and Lylat. You can pull it off on YI, but save that for the last choice. DO NOT PLAY ON FD OR SMASHVILLE. You have to camp, obviously. The one note I like to keep out and open is that our Dair beats their Uair, which is very very helpful. Stay above them at all times if you can. It makes it very hard for them to approach you since Bair has just ok-ish range and you can see a setup for it. AS beats the Blizzard wall, too.

I put this on a 60:40, and I might be the only one to do it, but its how I feel about it. It is so stage dependent, but also it heavily relies on if we win the first match or not.

Wait, 40:60 their favor? Because last time I talked to you, that's what you said.

Also, SV is another one you can abuse the plat with, so more often than not, this game's going to be a bugger for ICs first match. I'm sure ICs will tell you how much disdain they have for that stage lol.

 

[iRJi]

Wait, 40:60 their favor? Because last time I talked to you, that's what you said.

Also, SV is another one you can abuse the plat with, so more often than not, this game's going to be a bugger for ICs first match. I'm sure ICs will tell you how much disdain they have for that stage lol.

yea, in their favor, not ours lol. 60:40, 55:45, which ever way the numbers go, this is not in our favor. LOLLOLOLOLOLOL.

 

[phi1ny3]

I've talked to Zucco who's played more than his fair share of IC matches, a few of which the ICs were fully capable of doing the infinites on Lucario (tl;dr if he got grabbed he'd die). He thinks it's their favor on flatter stages, our favor when there's an abusable plat.

 

[iLink]

This MU is pretty much chip away at them while trying to not get grabbed, which Lucario doesn't really do an awesome job of.

Spacing yourself with fair and shooting random BAS is all you really can do until you see an opening to use dair and try to separate them. As soon as you do get them apart, make sure to get nana off the ****ing stage ASAP.

 

[phi1ny3]

You also want them as far away from where you're going to land as possible, which means good combinations of dair, AD, bair, and B-reversals thrown in, because this usually determines whether Lucario gets grabbed/uaired or not.

It isn't just Nana that you want off, if Popo's in a worst position offstage, the build of the character while solo is generally not really good against a strong enough character, and Lucario could get off either one.

Dair camping, learn this. Basically, what I should've done the last match I played was kill them the first time, and chip at them while I had the advantage until I gimped one of them, then dair camp/wall off sopo for the rest of the match the next stock.

 

[iLink]

I agree dair camping is very helpful in this MU. I said to try to get nana off the stage because she is the AI while popo is the actual player so it's generally easier to move her around while she is trying to get back to popo.

 

[phi1ny3]

Yeah I definitely agree that Nana's the better target, but if you see Popo nearer/more vulnerable, by the same coin get him off. Remember that Popo is far more capable of helping Nana than the other way around, although Popo will probably be harder to get off.
Basically, don't be exclusively methodical, be smart.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I think Lucario vs IC is in Lucario's favor if he plays gay, platform camping all day. It's only in their favor if you go to FD. Just strike FD and SV then you can deal with any other stage, IC really suck more on CP stages than most other characters. Air camp them all day, only get on the ground if you have them separated or have something sneaky to pull off.

I'm probably going to be the odd man out for thinking this.

 

[iRJi]

I think Lucario vs IC is in Lucario's favor if he plays gay, platform camping all day. It's only in their favor if you go to FD. Just strike FD and SV then you can deal with any other stage, IC really suck more on CP stages than most other characters. Air camp them all day, only get on the ground if you have them separated or have something sneaky to pull off.

I'm probably going to be the odd man out for thinking this.

I believe this to be false sir.

Outside of Lylat, battle field is your best option. Smashville being the 3rd or 2nd worse stage, then FD being last stage you wanna go to of course. The reason why i say this is because off of battle field, they have an easier time getting to you then you avoiding them. On neutrals, the most of the time have a slight advantage to a good advantage against you. Because of this, they are in the higher position to take a game then you are. Yes, they are very bad on a lot of CP stages, but after that is over they can just CP you back to a neutral. Like i said before, I believe it is very dependent on if you take the first game or not.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I believe this to be false sir.

Outside of Lylat, battle field is your best option. Smashville being the 3rd or 2nd worse stage, then FD being last stage you wanna go to of course. The reason why i say this is because off of battle field, they have an easier time getting to you then you avoiding them. On neutrals, the most of the time have a slight advantage to a good advantage against you. Because of this, they are in the higher position to take a game then you are. Yes, they are very bad on a lot of CP stages, but after that is over they can just CP you back to a neutral. Like i said before, I believe it is very dependent on if you take the first game or not.

Of the stages normally on neutrals I would prioritize it like this.

Battlefield
Lylat/Pokemon Stadium 1(Whichever is a neutral)
Yoshi's island
Smashville
Final destination

They don't beat us on Battlefield if we play gay, same with Pokemon stadium 1 and Lylat. It's in their favor if we go to Final Destination, Smashville isn't bad since we do have a platform to camp. While it is going to move on over to them as it passes the stage we just need to hold control of the platform, which may be difficult. Yoshi's is fine, it's much better compared to Final Destination and Smashville.

On CP's I'd always pick Norfair, if the TO doesn't ban it. Otherwise I'd just pick somewhere else that I could platform camp, hell even Brinstar which isn't that great for Lucario would work for this MU.

 

[DMG]

Smashville for Lucario is god status against IC's.

Better than BF IMO.

 

[iRJi]

Smashville for Lucario is god status against IC's.

Better than BF IMO.

Mm. Maybe I'm missing something that people are seeing. Can you explain why you think so? Of course, in complete detail please =]

 

[DMG]

Lee Martin.

Lain.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

I think Lucario vs IC is in Lucario's favor if he plays gay, platform camping all day. It's only in their favor if you go to FD. Just strike FD and SV then you can deal with any other stage, IC really suck more on CP stages than most other characters. Air camp them all day, only get on the ground if you have them separated or have something sneaky to pull off.

I'm probably going to be the odd man out for thinking this.

You're not. I'm perplexed as to where this negativity on this matchup came from all of a sudden lol.

Seriously, if this is 40:60, you better change MK and DDD to 20:80.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Smashville for Lucario is god status against IC's.

Better than BF IMO.

Better than BF?

Lee Martin vs Lain might support this, but isn't it better to platform camp on BF than Smashville?

You're not. I'm perplexed as to where this negativity on this matchup came from all of a sudden lol.

Seriously, if this is 40:60, you better change MK and DDD to 20:80.

I don't get it either. I wish to know why people suddenly shifted gears on this.

 

[DMG]

Moving platform helps more IMO than having 3 set ones really close together.

 

[phi1ny3]

On my match, the moving platform actually did help as much as three, from my experience.

I think part of it's due to three facts:

ICs have an actually pretty horrible air speed (at least horizontally). It's not Luigi/D3, but it's pretty bad iirc.

ICs can actually uair trap/blizzard lucario more effectively if it isn't moving

a common misconception is that ICs can't CG on platforms, the truth is they can, even on a tiny plat like BF, depending on the CG. However, not only is it harder to hit lucario and land on the platform on SV, it also screws CG over because of how difficult it is to get on and actually control the platform, which is hardly a gain when the opponent isn't stupid about when to ditch, basically making it a no-zone. Not the most reliable point of the MU since CG on platforms never happen, but nevertheless it is something to think about.

 

[Rayku]

Wasn't this matchup 60:40 before people besides Lain figured they couldn't chaingrab?

Even.

I hate this matchup because it's one of two that you're -forced- to camp as hard as possible, and Aura Sphere is blocked off at all percents by one ice block.

 

[phi1ny3]

I think it's evenish personally, we don't **** them with how strong of a tool they have, especially not on the stages they get if they win round 1

But on the flipside esp. with a conservative stage set we win on the pool of neutrals, just don't agree on random lol.

 

[Kitamerby]

Wasn't this matchup 60:40 before people besides Lain figured they couldn't chaingrab?

Even.

They can't chaingrab?

I don't think I've ever met an Ice Climber main who's ever said the matchup was their favor. Usually they think it's even at best for them, more often than not Luc favor slightly.

 

[phi1ny3]

They can't chaingrab?

I don't think I've ever met an Ice Climber main who's ever said the matchup was their favor. Usually they think it's even at best for them, more often than not Luc favor slightly.

Which Climbers are you talking to?

The ones on the board think this MU is pretty easy, more like a 40:60/45:55 their favor.

Also, he means it in the sense that awhile back people sucked at ICs and the idea of the typical CG was still "dthrow/fthrow -> fair" CG, which doesn't work anymore lol.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Sometimes I don't understand why some IC think they have an advantage against certain characters.

I've seen some claim that they had an advantage on Peach which is ludicrous if you ask me.

 

[DMG]

That one actually sounds viable. Like I think it's more even than anything, but it's certainly plausible/understandable to see why people would think IC's beat her. Now, if someone said DK goes even with Wario or something like that, I would have a hearty laugh.

 

[phi1ny3]

It's because theoretically it's more likely to get a grab than avoid it the whole MU.
But at highest levels of play, it's often proven on a few chars that they have no true reliable setup for it, except that one mess-up.

Basically, blame theorycraft.

Oh yeah, I forgot reason 4 of why SV is so awesome at being gay v. ICs:
When the plat is far away, you basically get free time, whether you want to charge AS or even if you want to attempt attacking (wouldn't recommend it though) because ICs can't blizzard, Ice block camp, desynch, or return to safe ground safely if you are offstage without a high risk of being separated, meaning a good IC player knows that he just has to wait for when the plat comes back more or try a really risky move.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Even I could see, advantage not really. She has the tools the fight them easily, meh I blame my bias for playing that MU with her and still haven't lost to an IC yet.

Dk vs Wario, people keep forgeting about the chaingrab lol.

 

[DMG]

I've had people tell me that they think DK vs Wario is even if you take out the CG for Wario and the grab release for DK. I think even then it's still Wario's favor by 6/4 at least. If DK could not grab release kill Wario, there's no realistic good setup for landing a kill move on him. Where as Wario can still do his stuff, just not ****** DK hard up the butt.

 

[TaterSalad0811]

They can't chaingrab?

I don't think I've ever met an Ice Climber main who's ever said the matchup was their favor. Usually they think it's even at best for them, more often than not Luc favor slightly.

He's got a point, moves like f-tilt outrange nearly everything, and ice block camping doesn't work out as well. Their FLAWED chaingrabs are nearly all escapable, i've played a decent IC main and DI+air dodged out of the b-throw combo. FCAS is particularly annoying, seeing as it separates the two, also can be followed by F-air combos to gimp one of them.

I'm going with either 50:50 or 55:45 Lucario.

EDIT: Happy now?

 

[iRJi]

He's got a point, moves like f-tilt outrange nearly everything, and ice block camping doesn't work out as well. The chaingrabs are nearly all escapable, i've played a decent IC main and DI+air dodged out of the b-throw combo. FCAS is particularly annoying, seeing as it separates the two, also can be followed by F-air combos to gimp one of them.

I'm going with either 50:50 or 55:45 Lucario.

That's blasphemy. How the hell is a CG escapade on your behalf? If it was, the it wouldn't be called a CG, it would be a tech chase.

 

[phi1ny3]

lol people are misunderstanding Rayku.
He means people finally realized they suck at ICs and got better at truly infiniting everyone.

 

[culexus・wau]

Stay in the air

Don't make any mistakes on the ground.

Learn to SDI -> Dair Squall Hammer

Don't get ***** by single squall hammer |:

Blizzard > our fair approaches but Aurasphere > Blizzard

Ice Blocks beats spheres all the time though <<

Don't mindlessly Fsmash on the ground, you WILL get grabbed.

I'll play Typh's Ice Climbers tonight and see how it goessss

 

[iLink]

He's got a point, moves like f-tilt outrange nearly everything, and ice block camping doesn't work out as well. The chaingrabs are nearly all escapable, i've played a decent IC main and DI+air dodged out of the b-throw combo. FCAS is particularly annoying, seeing as it separates the two, also can be followed by F-air combos to gimp one of them.

I'm going with either 50:50 or 55:45 Lucario.

If you are escaping their CHAINGRAB, then they are doing something wrong. And using ftilt against IC sounds like a horrible idea, you want to be in the air as much as possible to avoid a grab.

 

[culexus・wau]

Ftilt works really well because it always pushes them away with 2 hits <<

its quick

and it ussually hits nana because shes a slow shielder.

space it right and its alllll right.

I'm NOT saying to walk up to them and ftilt lol.... thats a stupid idea more like a defensive or GTFO move.

 

[phi1ny3]

It's okay, considering that the thing is pretty safe as a whole, but you definitely want to be in the air more often, although this isn't a bad idea to hit them while they're coming down, since it eats AD really well.

 

[TaterSalad0811]

That's blasphemy. How the hell is a CG escapade on your behalf? If it was, the it wouldn't be called a CG, it would be a tech chase.

Simple, they were tossing me back and forth on a back throw chaingrab, and after furious button mashing (R, L, and joystick), he kind of floated out while air-dodging, then i D-air's them to knock them away and fought the rest of the battle.

Blasphemy?...

THIS
IS

SMASHBOARDS!!

*kicks down pit*

P.S. no, literally, i got sick of my sister spamming pit's side-b, so i went as ganon on brdge of eldin and did a f-tilt over the gap.

 

[iRJi]

Simple, they were tossing me back and forth on a back throw chaingrab, and after furious button mashing (R, L, and joystick), he kind of floated out while air-dodging, then i D-air's them to knock them away and fought the rest of the battle.

Blasphemy?...

THIS
IS

SMASHBOARDS!!

*kicks down pit*

P.S. no, literally, i got sick of my sister spamming pit's side-b, so i went as ganon on brdge of eldin and did a f-tilt over the gap.

They are messing up, it's that simple mang

 

[Inferno3044]

Mario boards are discussing Lucario.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=9110994&posted=1#post9110994

 

[phi1ny3]

It's probably a messup more often than not, lucario is very weird to CG because he gets harder to do so with the standard one for his weight the higher percent he gets at a quickly increasing rate, and the standard bthrow -> dthrow alternating grabs is a little tricky to perform on Lucario.

 

[benaji261!]

All in all from what I read last page just don't get grabbed. I manage to do that with Ike, and I'm not sure if Lucario has better spacing game than Ike or not. \O_o/

 

[culexus・wau]

It's probably a messup more often than not, lucario is very weird to CG because he gets harder to do so with the standard one for his weight the higher percent he gets at a quickly increasing rate, and the standard bthrow -> dthrow alternating grabs is a little tricky to perform on Lucario.

it doesn't matter if thats hard if fthrow is easy as ****

seriously.

Anyways I played typh today lol

definetelyyyyyyyy 50-50 on neutrals.

If you have a habit of Jump + Fairing back to the stage watch out for Downtilt

Its a REALLY good semispike ><

if you're forced to ES back on the stage you're pretty much ****ed.




If you're REALLY good at mashng though they might not be able to charge -> Upsmash

otherwise your deathzone is around 120%-ish or something.


Someone get ICs in here I'm sure Lain and Meep would like to share their views on the MU.

QOUTING WHAT I FOUND ON THE ICS BOARD :>

lucario vs ic is even. I particularly dont like that match period...

Lucario's moveset doesnt make him win the match up. Its his dumb aura build up. Cging gets more difficult as the percentage goes up. Every lucario ive lost to was only because i messed up cging. If your going to factor in human error into a mu discussion then we do lose, but if ic are playing on point we win.

I dont even have much lucario practice, which is another factor. I beat a good 90% of the top mks out there and why is our ratio 40:60 mk?

Most mu discussions are based off of theory craft and human error is rarely put into play. If that really was the case then most of ic bad mus are always going to be the chars that we have the most difficult to cg against.

When i discuss match ups i usually am under the assumption the ic player wont ever mess up cging.

I guess for me the match up is lucarios advantage cuz i keep losing to him by a messed up cg -_- lol.

I messed up cging 3rd game against him. Frigate has weird slopes im not use to and it messes up my cg. The 2nd game i played him i almost 3 stocked him and i got him down to last stock first and last game.

Lucario can play extremely gay, but he has to work hard if all ic try to do is grab and use blizzard and ice blocks to set up grabs (low dmg attacks). Like I said earlier if ic are proficient with the cg lucario is gonna be at a disadvantage. If we 0-death all his stocks lucario's aura boost is nullified.

Its not inhuman to never mess up cging you see those crazy marvel players never messing up their infinites its just you have to practice a lot. I stopped putting time in practicing infinites.... I might go back to the basics again and just practice it nonstop. I seem to always lose lately because i mess up infinites lol...

but if its any consolation most ICs have not gotten to the level where its truly 1 grab = 1 stock, especially with lucarios weird timing [Not fthrow]

A lot of characters you fight in tourney aren't super floaty like we are so its weird-ish for them if they try the normal CGs.

oh and more random thoughts from when I played typh climbers:

-It seems if you whiff Fsmash right in front of them they can dash and grab you, maybe I'm not acting fast enough.

-Don't start with BAS, aggro ICs can and will start with de-synced Nana Ice Block to Dash.

-Nana is both an idiot and a complete genius. Get footstooled.