SINGLES Lucario Match-Ups and Directory! Mario will brb saving a princess

[iRJi]

Guys, come on, we are almost done xD. Post your MU numbers plox D=

 

[Today]

I ban Rainbow cruise every time against a G&W main.

-Sad face.-

 

[Browny]

Guys, come on, we are almost done xD. Post your MU numbers plox D=

You are rushing through these WAY TOO FAST and have hardly any input from the other side. Its making the Lucario boards look bad, and rightfully so.

 

[iLink]

I have to say the MU 60-40 for GAW

He just has too many things against lucario IMO. His bair pretty much beats out everything in the air and his upb gets him out of any potentially unsafe situation considering the startup on most of lucario's KO attacks. Not to mention you can't really camp him due to the bucket and his smashes are pretty brutal if they land at a decent percent

 

[iRJi]

You are rushing through these WAY TOO FAST and have hardly any input from the other side. Its making the Lucario boards look bad, and rightfully so.

Actually, the information gathered is quite enough. I switch up the section depending on how long the break is between them. From what I have noticed, when you wait after the period of time that their is a pause of information not being put into the boards, it comes to a standstill until I post that we are moving onto the next section. When it comes to the next section, or the final section, I always post to "Add last minute information, and also post the MU number you think it is" just to make sure if we are going a little ahead of the clock, you can still insert your tidbit of information. I also leave the MU number section of the MU we do for a day or 2 so everyone can add their information as well. As the current format goes, i normally do it like this.

2 days of information on the character/strategies against the character
1.5 days of stages
1-2 days of MU numbers/Last min. Information

Total: 5.5 Days Max/4.5 days min.

I do want to get this done, but I also planned a nice time sequence for doing it in. I am also not ending the MU right now, I just want people to post their MU number as well as their information if they want to add. I did start this MU 3 days ago, so as far as time goes it's def. not over.

So just to break it down, i think its reasonable time to get a MU done. If anyone does not think so, please say so now.

 

[Zucco]

I'd say 55:45 for G&W, but only because we have matchups like marth who are 40:60 for us.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

So just to break it down, i think its reasonable time to get a MU done. If anyone does not think so, please say so now.

I agree with DJ, I feel like the discussions are being rushed a bit.

 

[phi1ny3]

I think it's 45:55 G&W, merely because offstage gets mucky for Lucario, but is very, very blow for blow imo.
Also I think Diddy's a slight disadvantage for us, after playing some at my recent tourney (didn't get to play Felix though D: )

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I need to post my write up but I think this is 50:50.

 

[iRJi]

Tomorrow afternoon is the last day, and we will move onto the IC's. Last information and MU numbers if you have not posted them yet, please.

 

[IceDX]

55/45 GnW...

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Lucario vs Mr. Came and Watch

I used to think this was one of Lucario's hardest MU's, then I kept playing Mr. Game and Watch's and realized it's not nearly as bad as I was making it out to be.

What I didn't realize before was the fact that Mr. Game & Watch's kill moves are a lot more avoidable and easier to space for Lucario. Usmash? Dair outranges it, Fsmash? we can outrange it with Fsmash. Dsmash? Fsmash or even grab in some cases will work. Not only do we have answers for these moves, but avoiding them is a lot easier than first thought. Once you play the MU enough you'll be able to learn how Mr. Game and Watch's smashes work. You should be able to stay out of his range and because of that you can react to his smashes if you space right.

The Dthrow techchase? As Phil said listen to the noises Mr. Game and watch makes when he's about to it, time the fifth beep and tech the throw. If you miss the tech just roll away from him, Lucario's fast and long roll should be able to get away from it.

The air game might have some problems, but Bair isn't as bad a people say it is. You can DI and SDI out to the other side of Mr. Game and Watch if you really wanted to. The good ideas would be to DI and SDI below or above him to Dair or Uair him. His Dair shouldn't be a problem, Lucario can use Usmash to beat it or even punish him on the landing. His Uair can stall you in the air, it help Mr. Game and Watch refresh his move set while he keeping you in the air. His Fair is going to be the main problem, it's a good gimping tool on Lucario when he's recovering, and with Mr. Game and Watch's chef.

Lucario has more control of reacting to Mr. Game and Watch if he's on the ground, Mr. Game and Watch has a better time in the air against us. Don't be discouraged from using your air game, It's not like Marth where it's harder to get inside.

Fsmash is a good move in the MU when you don't spam it mindlessly. Ftilt can keep you safe, even if it doesn't have the range of Fsmash.

Use Aura sphere sparingly, remember Mr. Game and Watch can bucket it. One good thing about his bucket, you can punish the after lag if he absorbs an aura sphere. If he gets enough to do an oil spill, you didn't use Aura Sphere right.

Stages, less platforms is a good thing. Trust me, Mr. Game and Watch benefits much more if he has them compared to Lucario. FD gives Lucario that space he needs in the match-up. Yoshi's works for as the only patform tilts in a way that doesn't help him as much. Ban the hell out of Rainbow Cruise, it's already a bad stage for Lucario and to top it all off it's one of Mr. Game and Watch's best stages.

I reallt think this is 50:50 when all is said and done.

 

[HK Donut of the Blue Fire]

In my many experiences and encounters with GnW it comes down to them trying to play rushdown with coming at you thru the air, now its not the easiest of battles but really all GnW has going for him is Bair, cuz it NOM NOM shields i have yet to effectivly deal with bair.

Uair is pretty useless IMO they use it for mind games i guess but its predictable and not very mind gamey.

Fair, its powerful but im seeing less and less of it these days so yeah, just dont get sweetspotted and its not that bad.

Dair, well GnW uses dair to try and catch you if your under him, but i also found out this is where god **** U-smash shines (or in my experiences have), the moment i see dair, i start chargin U-smash, the timing can be a tad tricky but its nothing too hard, you get the hang of it after taking one or two mistimed ones.

Ground game wise, pretty basic stuff

D-tilt, damage etc its good for ledge guarding and a quick suprise, i dont see to much else on the ground besides this and or smashes.

All Smashes SHOULD BE AVOIDED FOR THE LOVE OF GOD! i cant express how easily it is for GnW to kill Lucario and at low percents!! shield it, roll it, just get out of the freaking way!!

F-smash, this is probably the least scene impo. its good its powerful, but a little bit laggy, this is easily shielded and punished.

U-smash, this is the killer! it hits around GnW which is a nasty suprise for sure, but i see alot of GnW do it when im falling and they catch one of our most amazing moves i like to call Down-Aerial, or Dair for short, Dair is an amazing move to counter this its quicker and has farther range

D-smash, more spammable than our roll its to be watched out for! you should spot dodge or roll away asap its really quick, punish with AS or something that requires you NOT be next to them.

Overall dealing with him: I normally play a bit defensive on this MU shield Bair -> Grab -> X-Throw -> Punish game, rinse wash, repeat.

 

[phi1ny3]

Now that I think about it, I really think this is a 50:50 for two reasons:
1. To spite Valdens if he sees this lol
2. The match was pretty close, I wasn't on my A-game at that tourney and I still managed to go blow for blow with him pretty much, although last stock I started to shake a little, it was definitely close.

 

[iRJi]

A tie on MU numbers, I am going to let this go another day. Continue with the discussion and talking.

 

[HK Donut of the Blue Fire]

was my dissection on GnW wrong? or was it pretty good?

 

[iLink]

I'm honestly surprised people are saying its 50:50 =/

A properly spaced bair from gaw shuts down all approaches. Yes you can DI out of it but if gaw DI's backwards while it is hitting, then he is basically safe. Dtilt > everything on the ground except our fsmash and his dtilt is too fast to really deal with it with fsmash. Bucket > AS so no abusing AS in this MU.

Lucario has to play pretty defensively to do anything.

 

[phi1ny3]

We don't need to approach half the time. Bucket comes at a ridiculously high risk and many times isn't worth doing so when the Lucario extends use of it properly.
Just don't use it from really far away where he has the reaction time and the safety to bucket it, more like within SH range when he gets more advantage from using his aerials anyways.
that applies to making dtilt, bucket, and bair much more easier to deal with, and even dtilt is approachable with proper crossup measures. Dtilt only really becomes dangerous in a MU where the character has to approach, which frankly doesn't happen in this one much.

Actually though it is possible to label it as 45:55 in ways due to incredible edgeguarding power, and overall ledge game. The problem is out of all the moves that will send you off, only fair is reliable, as G&W smashes are hard to come by when it comes to landing them, and dtilt is only really useful from dthrow or stuffing approaches, which fortunately is made tough from good spacing.

Being above G&W is possibly the worst place to be, nair, upB mixups, fair, and uair are all reasons you should not stay in this position for long, especially since most of these outrange/nullify dair. Oh and usmash can punish dair, it outranges it if spaced/read actually, so dair as a whole is tough to use besides for punishing purposes, whether your opponent SDIs it or not in this MU.

 

[iLink]

If you are ever at a stock/percent disadvantage, then you kind of need to approach because then they can bair camp with proper spacing.

I know AS can be used more easily in close quarters without it getting absorbed but you can't abuse it like in other MU's is what I meant to say.

And a good gaw wouldn't just randomly throw out dtilts when you are safe enough to do any kind of cross-up.

If gaw plays as defensively as you when he has a lead, then it's rather difficult to deal with IMO.

 

[phi1ny3]

This is true to an extent
G&W can be tough to deal with in terms of planking or aircamping
that's more of a matter of CPing though imo, so for example, that strikes JJ as a good CP because of this risk.
On a stage where it isn't as viable, and with the popular ledgegrab limit, G&W more often than not has to approach you with AS, but it's a weird situation. It's like a specific zone to do it.
I'm not saying dtilt's going to be thrown out like spam, but I am saying that Lucario can make dtilt pretty weak if done correctly. At least that was my experience from Valdens.
It outranges marth fair, and G&W can edgeguard Marth just as bad as he can to us, but that doesn't save him from being pretty heavily disadvantaged in the Marth MU.
Dtilt can be used to punish poor options, like spotdodge, but it's mainly used to stuff approaching in conjunction with the occasional upB, which are gone when the character doesn't truly have to approach in the first place.
Imo G&W wins far more being in the air than on the ground, not that he should never do stuff on the ground, but the moves are pretty lackluster compared to his air game against us.

 

[iLink]

Well if we are bringing CP's in, gaw has two good options against Lucario which are JJ and RC. We can only strike one which still leaves us with the other one to deal with. We really don't have any stage that gives us a significant advantage such as gaw gets from his CP.

From my experience, dtilt was only used on when I attempted to do anything on the ground and I was within range. The dtilt would always hit before anything I tried, including fsmash due to the startup on it. He is usually in the air though like you stated, where he has the advantage, but he also doesn't have much trouble dealing with you on the ground IMO. Also his fsmash can be nasty due to the lingering hitbox if you spotdodge it.

 

[iRJi]

Well if we are bringing CP's in, gaw has two good options against Lucario which are JJ and RC. We can only strike one which still leaves us with the other one to deal with. We really don't have any stage that gives us a significant advantage such as gaw gets from his CP.

From my experience, dtilt was only used on when I attempted to do anything on the ground and I was within range. The dtilt would always hit before anything I tried, including fsmash due to the startup on it. He is usually in the air though like you stated, where he has the advantage, but he also doesn't have much trouble dealing with you on the ground IMO. Also his fsmash can be nasty due to the lingering hitbox if you spotdodge it.

He has more CP's then that too. Lets not forget he is amazing on Brinstar, and although we can fight on Battlefield easier then others, he is better there then us too. This is why I listed it as a 55:45 in his favor. We can fight him, but you always have to take CP's into account. When it comes down to that, he is better on more stages then lucario.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

I've come to believe Final Destination screws G&W over almost as bad as anything he can CP screws Lucci over, looool. So hard for him to win there.

If a G&W player doesn't ban FD you should jump on that like a furry on yiff. Seriously.

 

[phi1ny3]

^This is quite true.

 

[D. Disciple]

That's extremely true, ban cruise against GaW and you're pretty good. I still say this match up is in Lucario's favor. Always manage to stay on a lower-even ground against him.

 

[phi1ny3]

The problem is imo G&W wins in only very specific areas that have been forced on you by bad choices you made earlier, something rare in high levels of play for this particular MU. It does happen though, and when it does, it's pretty scary.

 

[iRJi]

Its that time again. Information and Mu numbers please.

 

[iLink]

I still believe it's 40:60 in gaw's favor, but if it does result in some tie again I would agree to 45:55.

IMO gaw just has the right tools to deal with Lucario's usual tactics.

 

[UTDZac]

Wall of text, most of it is a good read. Enjoy.

Learn to time a tech for when G&W dthrows you. Practice without sound, trust me.

Learn to time a grab out-of-shield during G&W’s bair ornair if he uses the move too close.

Learn to SDI G&W’s bair. If you can consistently pop out of it after 1-2 hits, you’ll beat most G&Ws.

Do not let the G&W repeatedly uair you with the windbox. He refreshes his move decay like this.

Understand that G&W’s dtilt has a huge hitbox above the attack. Imagine an invisible circle with a diameter of G&W’s dtilt. That’s how big the hitbox extends above the ground. I’m not really sure how Lucario can best punish dtilt, if he even can.

Avoid being offstage against a G&W. This is good general advice, even for MK. Fair will wreck you off stage, always DI up. Same is true if the G&W tries to edgeguard with dair.

Avoid smashes by keeping your distance from the G&W. Just learn the spacing that each of his smash attacks has and be careful while approaching. G&Ws will probably try to bait rolls and punish with dsmash. It’s very hard for G&W to land an upsmash if you are careful about your dairs.

Learn when to use Aura Sphere and when not to use it. This is a good move in the matchup. A smart G&W will not bucket every chance he gets because bucket has a whole second of ending lag. It’s ok the give the G&W at least two bucket charges for the purposes of punishing lag, just don’t ever fill it. Also, it doesn’t matter if G&W gets small or big charges, they final result will still kill you at low percents. Btw, fully charged bucket comes out frame 2.

G&W’s UpB has invincibility frames starting frame 5 and super high priority afterwards. The best way to punish UpB is to bait it, then uair it. It takes G&W 16 frames to drop parachute, or 4 frames to cancel into an attack. Even if the G&W cancels into an attack it won’t matter, none of hits aerials have a hitbox below him (except dair, but that has massive startup time).

Try to allows be at ground level, or below G&W, but never above him. G&Ws can juggle most characters with nair and uair so well, you don’t even know.

G&W has a very powerful camping game against Lucario. I used it against Lee and he had difficulty getting in. I can upload the match later for you guys, if I find it.

G&W general does well against Lucario only if you left him kill you early. His smashes and fair can kill super early, don’t underestimate them and don’t get hit by them either.

G&W also does well against Lucario if you don’t have any matchup experience against him. The more matchup experience you get, the less likely you are to fall for his silly mixups, frame traps, etc. G&W’s moves are very fast and hard to punish a majority of the time. Understanding when it’s a bad idea to try and attack back will greatly help you in this matchup.

Final Destination is not the BEST counterpick against G&W. It’s a very good stage for G&W against Lucario. G&W can live longer than normal because of how wide the stage is. If he’s smart, he’ll stay near the middle of the stage, this increases his life by 20% or more.

Brinstar is not a good place for G&W to counterpick Lucario to, imo. The narrow blastzones are bad because Lucario can get surprise kills early.

Rainbow Cruise should be banned, in general, but more so against G&W. He’s aerial game is better than yours. If he gets you in a situation where you are trying to recover, you’re probably going to take more damage than you should. The only benefit here is a low ceiling for half the stage; killing with Lucario’s uair should be easy.

I’ve played a good bit of Lucarios besides just Lee. In my opinion, the matchup is slightly in G&W’s favor (55-45).

Here are some videos I found if you want to watch.

UTDZac vs ODark (No Koast 2)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnqRTuRde3o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sPKHmdSEcA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1IEkfthNwk

UTDZac vs ??? (Pools Match)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VmEo2kLkfs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhsSHXi4jPc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cb5tio7OL5E
* I joke around in pools a lot, btw.

 

[iRJi]

Wall of text, most of it is a good read. Enjoy.

Learn to time a tech for when G&W dthrows you. Practice without sound, trust me.

Learn to time a grab out-of-shield during G&W’s bair ornair if he uses the move too close.

Learn to SDI G&W’s bair. If you can consistently pop out of it after 1-2 hits, you’ll beat most G&Ws.

Do not let the G&W repeatedly uair you with the windbox. He refreshes his move decay like this.

Understand that G&W’s dtilt has a huge hitbox above the attack. Imagine an invisible circle with a diameter of G&W’s dtilt. That’s how big the hitbox extends above the ground. I’m not really sure how Lucario can best punish dtilt, if he even can.

Avoid being offstage against a G&W. This is good general advice, even for MK. Fair will wreck you off stage, always DI up. Same is true if the G&W tries to edgeguard with dair.

Avoid smashes by keeping your distance from the G&W. Just learn the spacing that each of his smash attacks has and be careful while approaching. G&Ws will probably try to bait rolls and punish with dsmash. It’s very hard for G&W to land an upsmash if you are careful about your dairs.

Learn when to use Aura Sphere and when not to use it. This is a good move in the matchup. A smart G&W will not bucket every chance he gets because bucket has a whole second of ending lag. It’s ok the give the G&W at least two bucket charges for the purposes of punishing lag, just don’t ever fill it. Also, it doesn’t matter if G&W gets small or big charges, they final result will still kill you at low percents. Btw, fully charged bucket comes out frame 2.

G&W’s UpB has invincibility frames starting frame 5 and super high priority afterwards. The best way to punish UpB is to bait it, then uair it. It takes G&W 16 frames to drop parachute, or 4 frames to cancel into an attack. Even if the G&W cancels into an attack it won’t matter, none of hits aerials have a hitbox below him (except dair, but that has massive startup time).

Try to allows be at ground level, or below G&W, but never above him. G&Ws can juggle most characters with nair and uair so well, you don’t even know.

G&W has a very powerful camping game against Lucario. I used it against Lee and he had difficulty getting in. I can upload the match later for you guys, if I find it.

G&W general does well against Lucario only if you left him kill you early. His smashes and fair can kill super early, don’t underestimate them and don’t get hit by them either.

G&W also does well against Lucario if you don’t have any matchup experience against him. The more matchup experience you get, the less likely you are to fall for his silly mixups, frame traps, etc. G&W’s moves are very fast and hard to punish a majority of the time. Understanding when it’s a bad idea to try and attack back will greatly help you in this matchup.

Final Destination is not the BEST counterpick against G&W. It’s a very good stage for G&W against Lucario. G&W can live longer than normal because of how wide the stage is. If he’s smart, he’ll stay near the middle of the stage, this increases his life by 20% or more.

Brinstar is not a good place for G&W to counterpick Lucario to, imo. The narrow blastzones are bad because Lucario can get surprise kills early.

Rainbow Cruise should be banned, in general, but more so against G&W. He’s aerial game is better than yours. If he gets you in a situation where you are trying to recover, you’re probably going to take more damage than you should. The only benefit here is a low ceiling for half the stage; killing with Lucario’s uair should be easy.

I’ve played a good bit of Lucarios besides just Lee. In my opinion, the matchup is slightly in G&W’s favor (55-45).

Here are some videos I found if you want to watch.

UTDZac vs ODark (No Koast 2)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnqRTuRde3o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sPKHmdSEcA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1IEkfthNwk

UTDZac vs ??? (Pools Match)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VmEo2kLkfs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhsSHXi4jPc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cb5tio7OL5E
* I joke around in pools a lot, btw.

Ty for the post ^_^

 

[phi1ny3]

I can agree with 45:55, nowhere near as bad as it used to be lol, but still I can see the fact that G&W lends himself to be a little more flexible stagewise than we are, which helps in the long run.

 

[UTDZac]

I forgot to mention:

Never underestimate a G&W's ability to hit you with a smash attack. You'd be surprised how it is to avoid them. I'll killed Lee with plenty of Fsmash

 

[phi1ny3]

I think the most annoying is sweespot dsmash, that thing has like an invisible hitbox lol, and you never want to roll behind because of it lolol.

 

[TaterSalad0811]

Just as a note, a funny thing that seems to bother G&W is spamming BAS at the beginning of the stock when he's further away, then camp with FCAS until he slips up. Buy that I mean attempts to empty is bucket and refill with FCAS. At that point the lag buildup is so immense, there's almost no challenge rushing in, assuming that you slowly approached while spamming BAS. Then again, I don't even know if it was a very good G&W, but I'm putting my two cents in, and that's what this thread is for.

so lulz

Also, 55:45 G&W, just doesn't seem completely equal, Lucario will need time to develop more if he wants to overtake G&W

 

[iRJi]

Looks like everyone is good with a 55:45 Gw then.

iight, I am switching MU's now. The last MU is:

Ice Climbers

Go.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

Final Destination is not the BEST counterpick against G&W. It’s a very good stage for G&W against Lucario. G&W can live longer than normal because of how wide the stage is. If he’s smart, he’ll stay near the middle of the stage, this increases his life by 20% or more.

Brinstar is not a good place for G&W to counterpick Lucario to, imo. The narrow blastzones are bad because Lucario can get surprise kills early.

I don't understand this reasoning at all. Both characters are going to be living longer, and that's more a plus for Lucario than his opponent. That, and a complete lack of platforms reeeeeally doesn't agree with G&W in this matchup.

 

[iRJi]

I don't understand this reasoning at all. Both characters are going to be living longer, and that's more a plus for Lucario than his opponent. That, and a complete lack of platforms reeeeeally doesn't agree with G&W in this matchup.

Well, I think he is implying that the bucket break is also going to be used very often, and on FD the survivability of GW because of that is increased by a large amount. if i remember correctly. on FD a GW can live consistently to around 150 ish against lucario's output power. It lessens depending on the blows that he takes of course, but on horizontal KO's h will last quite a while. It just my interpretation of it though.

 

[UTDZac]

G&W can more easily kill Lucario vertically than horizontally (in general) with Fsmash or Upsmash or Dsmash Sweetspot.
Lucario tends to kill horizontally (in general) with Fmsash.

Don't get me wrong, I know Lucario can kill vertically, it's just harder to do so than horizontally.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

Fair enough. I'm still convinced the layout of the stage is more than a worthwhile tradeoff.

 

[phi1ny3]

lol ICs are NOT 60:40 our favor, that's for sure.
Any place with well spaced plats is really good against them.