SINGLES Lucario Match-Ups and Directory! Mario will brb saving a princess

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

lern2techandSDIscrub=gg

This is exactly why the MU changed, well that and advice on how to play the MU before was kind of flawed.

G&W Bair in some cases is a free Dair. =D

 

[phi1ny3]

That and bucket is a poor excuse of a shutdown for AS.
Also I left a note for UTDZac to come in, he might be coming in here to give his thoughts.

 

[culexus・wau]

Learning to smash DI his multihit moves makes this so much easier for lucario imo.

knowing how to punish badly applied UpBs helps a great deal as well.

phil see if you can get praxis in here to spill G&W **** tricksies

 

[ShippoFoxFire]

In my fights against Game&Watch, I've seen that most of Lucario's multi-hit moves go through Game&Watch. Game and Watch loves to bait for a dair, or a falling bair, in my experiances, a well spaced AND timed uair goes right through. The only thing I see a bad position for lucario, is when gnw uses dtilt, which ***** a lot of our moves and beats out AS(?)

To be honest, Foward Smash/Up Smash is one of your best friends here, along with your pals utilt and ftilt

 

[phi1ny3]

5th beep = press R when he's dthrowing

There's a part of the bair/(nair?) animation where it's still out but pretty much inactive, enough for a jab or grab for Lucario. I wouldn't rely on the others as G&W won't use those as often in a SH scenario where he'll lag.

If you can SDI bair consistently, G&W is going to hate you, as you have one of the best responses after getting free from bair.

Avoid being offstage, it's where he's going to get the most damage/killing off on you.

Don't get lolsmashed/Zac'd (aka hit with the Judgement 9)

If a G&W has gotten enough oil spills in a round to do oil panic, unless you were intentionally filling it you need to work on your AS use, that thing should not shut you down lol.

Beware the gimping fair

Watch out for the upB shenanigans, if you don't know what you are doing around it you'll look silly while being hit by aerials coming down left and right.

Be very careful when he's underneath you

This is a MU imo where Lucario actually has changed from having to play very differently to playing pretty by the book tbh, yes he has aerials that outrange yours but they are abusable in many scenarios unless you're above him most of the time.

I think besides the occasional randoms I've played the best experience I've had v. G&W was Valdens.

 

[HK Donut of the Blue Fire]

Ive played several GnWs and all GnWs run the same shenanigans and thats the thing you can expect to see the same thing every time, unlike us i think we can do a little mix-up

Aura Sphere - Not something to be thrown about lightly in this match up but keep one it will come in handy especially if you catch them when theyre going for another move.

F-smash - pretty good in the MU imo, because GnW smashes are busted good your gonna wanna keep the distance between you good, using F-tilt can also be good for damage and spacing.

GnW is pretty light but on big stages he can bucket brake (not sure how effectiv e it is and if alot of GnWs do it) i think we can kill him substantially early but it works the same, ive been killed by his smashes at ridiculous low percents before it was a shocker when it happened. anyway while he has his shenanigans i think we have enough tools that this fight isnt as up-hill as we thought

 

[phi1ny3]

You should never let G&W smash you, if you know the MU well at least.

Yes they're pretty safe, but shielding/being smart with spacing > losing a stock, punishing a move isn't everything, and that's the mentality of being against G&W.

 

[culexus・wau]

oh yeah making sure this is clear.


Don't roll into dsmash

 

[Praxis]

HAI GAIS



Ok, first thing to realize is that G&W's smashes are not punishment kill moves. i.e., he cannot punish anything of your moveset with any of his smashes, but rather, G&W lands his smash attacks through reading your mistakes. In other words, he guesses, based on your habits and patterns. So when playing G&W, once you pass 70%, pay attention to every move you make and camp hard; if he's approaching, he cannot hit you with a smash attack unless you are an idiot.

He MIGHT be able to punish a powershielded fsmash with a smash attack of his own, but you really shouldn't be throwing out fsmashes like that.


You can drop shield and jab (utilt if facing away) before the grounded hitbox of his bair comes out if you drop shield when the turtle's head dips. You can Smash DI out of his bair if he hits you while airborn and punish it with a down air. Your fair is also really good for punishing bair; remember that bair goes inactive when the turtle's head dips, so if you simply pull away and then fair once the head dips, it goes right through.

Use little aura spheres at medium range; if he buckets them, you get a free fsmash or whatever you want, and you force him to approach.

Learn to tech dthrow every time.

And never, ever roll toward him. Rolling away is actually almost always good because of his bad run speed. No projectile + bad run speed = GL punishing a fast roll away. However, you don't want to corner yourself by rolling to the wall, because suddenly you have to make a choice to get past him, which gives him a read opportunity to smash you.


To beat G&W, you want to recognize what situations are "read opportunities"; situations where a guessing game occurs. G&W always wins read opportunities. I mean, he might not win the guessing game, but he is rewarded three or four times more for winning the guessing game, so it's not worth the risk of engaging in a guessing game. Learn to recognize guessing game situations, and then focus your game on preventing them from occurring. If you remove the guessing games and reduce the match to spacing, then your character wins. Don't get backed into a corner, and think out every move you make. Remember, G&W has to approach; he has no projectile; as long as you are not approaching or trying to get past him, he has to approach you and you can react. He has no solid approach, and bair sucks on shield, and nair is only safe on retreat.

 

[DMG]

One thing to note, if you SDI out of his Bair and Dair him, he CAN SDI that Dair and punish you back. I mean I know I mentioned this earlier for SDIing Dair in general, but this is especially true for this specific instance because G&W pretty much knows when it will happen. He Bairs, he see's you SDI over his head, he can start to SDI then because, well obviously you are going to Dair. You Dair, he gets out, you get Upb'd or Naired or IDK Uair if he has a DJ left. So punishing it once you have gotten hit isn't as easy of a task for Lucario as for other characters who punish it hard like Marth or MK.

I disagree with the no projectile statement. Chef is a VERY good and underrated projectile that actually does work against Lucario when used in a smart manner. It cannot compete with AS in terms of horizontal range or damage, but he can use it and wall Lucario in tight spots. If you are recovering, that is where it really shines as a edgeguarding tool. It's a double trap; if it hits you, it leaves you in a lot of hitstun. Usually enough for G&W to hit you with a free move. If you are too close to the edge and it hits, he gets a free Fsmash/Dsmash. If you airdodge to avoid it, it not only can follow you down, but it forces you obviously to lose vertical distance/occasionally horizontal distance if you have to airdodge and back up. Having to Upb to recover against G&W is NOT fun for Lucario. So many bad things can happen.

G&W can space and time Bair to stuff any punishment you would have OOS, but it's fairly hard. Like Praxis mentioned, if it's not spaced/timed very well, you can usually punish it with something OOS at the right time.

I'll let Zac comment on this later. He's played Lee a lot more with G&W than I have since whenever I play him I'm usually Wario lol.

 

[phi1ny3]

^Yeah I'd like to stress that you'll want to recover from above more often than not.

I think I've hit G&W with nair or even uair once before after DIing the bair.

 

[Praxis]

G&W can space and time Bair to stuff any punishment you would have OOS, but it's fairly hard. Like Praxis mentioned, if it's not spaced/timed very well, you can usually punish it with something OOS at the right time.

This is not generally true, but Lucario's short grab range and slow jab might make it so.

Would you be surprised if I told you that ROB can punish any spacing of bair on his shield regardless of how G&W spaces it, provided he doesn't get shieldpoked?

 

[DMG]

ROB can. Lucario barely falls short. Like I checked the frame data, and he falls short by 2-3 frames when done right. That's a small margin, but acceptable.

 

[Praxis]

Ah you checked the frame data? Cool. Pity his jab's not just a little faster

I agree on recovery, I almost think G&W is more dangerous to recovery against for a high level Lucario than Metaknight is. If you recover right, you can almost always make it back by simply spacing to avoid MK's dair and DIing everything up; you might take a ton of damage, but you'll recover. G&W puts you in a guessing game situation when you're recovering that can result in your death at 70% or less. T_T

 

[phi1ny3]

His jab's for range pretty much, I'd have to look, but I think it has about as much range as falco's, if not more.

 

[TaterSalad0811]

Wait, what moves outrange G&W's down tilt? i would think the forward tilt, but what about his own down tilt? does it at least cancel out or something? once we find away around the manhole cover, that puts a serious dent (which looks funny when you're 2-D) in G&W's offense. Not to mention, he lacks a powerful approach game, so just bait him and force him to approach you whenever possible and punish to no end.

 

[phi1ny3]

Usually getting offstage in the first place is the result of two things:
A: being lolsmashed with sourspot dsmash or fsmash
B: approach being stuffed by dtilt (that thing outranges Marth fair for crying out loud!) or fair (usually oos)
both things are very avoidable.

 

[TaterSalad0811]

well what outranges his down tilt? and maybe we can try using AS to fill his bucket, which he would attempt to use at the start of a stock, then counter it, seeing how it's very predictable when he wants to use it. Then again, i don't remember if DT power is directly replated to damage of the countered attack

 

[phi1ny3]

It isn't.
And unfortunately DT is a pretty icky move period (like way too many variables in terms of how many frames it's invulnerable, and the fact that half the time the opponent can shield if they have the reflexes because DT doesn't place a stun effect on an opponent like Marth's does.)
The main problem with DT in this particular scenario isn't that it won't work (the lag of the attack is waaaaay too long for them to shield in time of the activation), but if you mispredict you're screwed over, especially if the G&W bucketed a fully charged AS (it pretty much kills regardless of percent or the other two projectiles absorbed). Although if you get a G&W to bucket an AS if you're close enough G&W suffers from enough lag to get punished by an fsmash. Another slight but still crucial reason the bucket is bad is if the bucket is full, he can't bucket brake to cancel his momentum to live for a long time.

 

[TaterSalad0811]

Darn it, i thought i was on to something... Wait, what about the Force palm? wouldn't the blast hit G&W from across the manhole cover?

 

[Kitamerby]

If you spam AS at high % and force him to absorb a bucket, you can get a free smash off on him while he lags.

 

[TaterSalad0811]

That doesn't sound like a good idea, he doesn't lag from the bucket very long, and you'd have to be somewhat far away for him to catch it in time.

 

[iRJi]

He lags from the bucket plenty long, actually. The idea about the Force Palm over the pan, I want you to think about that also. Force Palm is a frame (slow as piss) move in terms of the flame. Compare that to GW's Dtilt that comes out frame 4(?) and has low cool down. Thats not a bright idea man, just wanna point that out xD.

 

[G-Beast]

we can't really fight G&W's long range moves unless its a fsmash, G&W's dtilt beats out Aura Spheres for quite a while. dtilt is included in that

 

[phi1ny3]

Gaw, dthrow is so weird to tech on wifi.

 

[TaterSalad0811]

Crap, there's gotta be some way over the manhole, what about short-hopping to a down air? as long as you're above G&W, you, for the most part, can't get hit by the lid, right?

 

[iRJi]

Amazing contribution from everyone =D. Continue this, but now please add stages on which we should avoid, or CP him onto.

 

[phi1ny3]

Crap, there's gotta be some way over the manhole, what about short-hopping to a down air? as long as you're above G&W, you, for the most part, can't get hit by the lid, right?

Sort of

You need to space it

You shouldn't need to worry about it too much stuffing approaches, if you play it right especially at mid percents when AS get stronger, he has to approach pretty much.

If you want to approach you can crossup via nair, dair, or AD after fair.

lol I relearned how to tech G&W's dthrow again, seriously people, if you need to, go into training mode and dthrow yourself until you get it consistently.

 

[TaterSalad0811]

So about stages, we should go for Final Destination, Smashville, and Yoshi's Island, right? Without much platforms, G&W can't use most of his aerials to get free hits from crash lag (when you fall onto a platform from a non-standing position), so he has to approach you either on the ground (useless for him) or with the turtle, which is so ungodly predictable, it begs to get shield-grabbed/countered.

As far as counterpicks go, Rainbow Cruise and Pictochat seem to be the only reasonable option, everything else is just fish/turtle fodder.

I would say avoid Battlefield and Pokemon Stadium 1 (Not too sure about that), mostly for the same reasons as above, G&W loves uneven terrain, so forcing him onto flat areas while you bait and punish is a must when taking him on.

Now someone else evaluate/prove me wrong,(I left a lot of stuff open for you guys, let's see some discussion here) I often play against a very annoying G&W.

 

[iRJi]

So about stages, we should go for Final Destination, Smashville, and Yoshi's Island, right? Without much platforms, G&W can't use most of his aerials to get free hits from crash lag (when you fall onto a platform from a non-standing position), so he has to approach you either on the ground (useless for him) or with the turtle, which is so ungodly predictable, it begs to get shield-grabbed/countered.

As far as counterpicks go, Rainbow Cruise and Pictochat seem to be the only reasonable option, everything else is just fish/turtle fodder.

I would say avoid Battlefield and Pokemon Stadium 1 (Not too sure about that), mostly for the same reasons as above, G&W loves uneven terrain, so forcing him onto flat areas while you bait and punish is a must when taking him on.

Now someone else evaluate/prove me wrong,(I left a lot of stuff open for you guys, let's see some discussion here) I often play against a very annoying G&W.

Agree with most of what is said here, but not Rainbow Cruise. Def. not rainbow.

 

[TaterSalad0811]

No rainbow cruise? I kind of just threw that in to spark conversation, but now I'm curious, what disadvantages does that cause? Wouldn't G&W's parachute recovery be a weakens on a moving level? also, the ship part doesn't seem to give too many problems.

 

[iRJi]

GW is amazing in the air. His recovery is also really good, so on rainbow it actually does not hinder him at all. Also, sine he is good in the air, and 1/3rd of it is an airborne stage, that alone puts you at a disadvantage. To my knowledge also, doesn't GW have a wall lock too? If he does, then 1st and 3rd part of the stage he can also cause wall locking. Just a few things to throw out there, but yea, GW on the cruise is a bad choice. If anything, My stage selection would be something around Flat stages like FD and SV. The best place to fight a GW imo are the neutral stages, excluding Battlefield and Lylat.

Edit: 800th post. Also, on the ship, you have less chance to move around. I always say this to everyone who comes and talks about GW with me, and it is that when it comes down to stage and air control overall, GW is one of the kings. Going into an airborne fight with him is a no no.

 

[Zucco]

G&W's love Rainbow cruise. Everytime I ban it, they bring me to Brinstar. Avoid one of these. Id say just ban Rainbow and start learning how to play on Brinstar though since thats actually a decent lucario stage( bucket brake isnt as **** here but then again you die earlier).

 

[G-Beast]

Crap, there's gotta be some way over the manhole, what about short-hopping to a down air? as long as you're above G&W, you, for the most part, can't get hit by the lid, right?

you wont get hit but the lag on it is so non existent you cant really do anything about it, i honestly just let him dtilt as much as he wants and just stay the hell away from it because there isnt anything you can conceivably do about it

 

[phi1ny3]

G&W's love Rainbow cruise. Everytime I ban it, they bring me to Brinstar. Avoid one of these. Id say just ban Rainbow and start learning how to play on Brinstar though since thats actually a decent lucario stage( bucket brake isnt as **** here but then again you die earlier).

What this guy said

So I played Valdens again, I honestly think this is a pretty even MU now, I had him on the run but I missed the dthrow tech for this one crucial moment

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I ban Rainbow cruise every time against a G&W main.

 

[iRJi]

Final Stages and MU numbers please.

 

[phi1ny3]

I notified UTDZac, I was hoping he could shed some light on the MU, but he doesn't seem to be coming D:

 

[iRJi]

My MU number is 55:45 GW.

Also, if he still wants to post, he can. xP

 

[G-Beast]

i think this MU is 55:45 G&W, only because of the range he has on 100000 of his attacks

i prefer flat stages personally, Final D mainly, but i like smashville and delfino too

avoid taking G&W to RC(ban it if you can)

one thing i noticed is how G&W's like to go under the lip on PS1 and use Nair, only to meet a dair of dewm... it works outstandingly well