SINGLES Lucario Match-Ups and Directory! Mario will brb saving a princess

[Stealth Raptor]

50:50. lucario should never die till you are at max aura

 

[culexus・wau]

50-50

10GayChimps


[Someone help me with this match-up I realllyyyyyyyyyyyyy need help.]

 

[phi1ny3]

Well, yeah, most of these ratios were pretty good to begin with.
But if you notice, the tactics have changed a loooooot, the exports are severely outdated (which is my que to finish the rest of the 1st round of exports after my finals on Tuesday.

 

[iRJi]

The Numbers seem to be 55:45 Lucario.

Out next MU ( And I hope you guys go all out on this one, I know I will) is

Marth

 

[HK Donut of the Blue Fire]

Marth is indeed pesky, ill post my thoughts later

 

[hichez50]

Why are we discussing marth? I don't think anything changed about the match-up. His fair still *****. You should know not to approach in the air unless marth used a move that punishable(dair). We can win by carefully spaced fsmash and fairs. His meta-game is great but its overall the same with a couple mix up that separate the bad marths from the good.

 

[Fizzle]

Probably one of Lucario's hardest match-ups. Once Marth gets inside, fair and dtilt will shut you down easily, and dancing blade will punish whatever you throw at him. Your best bet here is a strong defensive game.

Ftilt is your best move in this matchup. When spaced at tipper range, it's nearly unpunishable, and it can punish misspaced attacks rather easily. Marth extends his hurtbox on a lot of his moves, and even a whiffed fsmash can be punished by ftilt.

Use fsmash sparingly. Most of the time Marth can just sh over it and fair you. The long startup leaves it bait to counter too, and Marth can counter fsmash from near max range and still hit you (Lucario's fsmash outranges it only by a hair). Use AS and ftilt to punish landings.

Jab shield is a nice mixup if you can predict the up-b. Only use the first jab, because I believe Marth can up-b you in between the rest... <_<

Lucario's quick dash is great at getting inside Marth's fairs. Shield grab the misspaced fairs and throw him. Marth gets wrecked in the air from below -- thus, uair is a good killing move in this MU.

Like many characters, Marth can massacre your recovery. Expect a lot of % (or death) if you're forced to ES.

Don't do that stupid AS charge offstage (unless you're really high up). AD (and shooting the AS) is your only option, and Marth can just wait and tipper bair you from underneath.

Rarely ever try to gimp him offstage. You're better off punishing his ledgehopped/ledgejumped aerials (Marth has to land with an aerial after a DS recovery to remove the lag). Retreating bair and ftilt work well. Again, watch out for counter if you're fsmash happy.

Using AS on a grounded Marth rarely works. Fair and ftilt will cancel your AS most of the time, unless you're at very high aura. BAS can slow him down pretty well though.

Marth's fthrow and dthrow put you in terrible positions to Marth's quick aerials. Don't get in the habit of air dodging immediately else you'll eat a charged usmash ("the NEO").

Marth likes to bait your dair stalls and uair you in between -- MK does the same thing with shuttle loop.

Rolling, when used SMARTLY, can destroy Marth's approaches. If Marth is predictable with fair patterns, it's very easy to roll behind him and grab. Marth hates crossups. Don't abuse this, though, else you'll be eating a turnaround dancing blade for 10-20 %.

60-40 Marth

 

[hichez50]

Use fsmash sparingly. Most of the time Marth can just sh over it and fair you. The long startup leaves it bait to counter too, and Marth can counter fsmash from near max range and still hit you (Lucario's fsmash outranges it only by a hair). Use AS and ftilt to punish landings.



Rolling, when used SMARTLY, can destroy Marth's approaches. If Marth is predictable with fair patterns, it's very easy to roll behind him and grab. Marth hates crossups. Don't abuse this, though, else you'll be eating a turnaround dancing blade for 10-20 %.

60-40 Marth

AS is not a really good idea to punish landing. And If you see the marth progressing toward you even after they missed a fair I would use a fsmash if you see it adequate.

I totally agree with that last paragraph.

 

[culexus・wau]

Ftilt is your best move in this matchup. When spaced at tipper range, it's nearly unpunishable, and it can punish misspaced attacks rather easily. Marth extends his hurtbox on a lot of his moves, and even a whiffed fsmash can be punished by ftilt.

Rolling, when used SMARTLY, can destroy Marth's approaches. If Marth is predictable with fair patterns, it's very easy to roll behind him and grab. Marth hates crossups. Don't abuse this, though, else you'll be eating a turnaround dancing blade for 10-20 %.

Ok, I agree with this.

Use fsmash sparingly. Most of the time Marth can just sh over it and fair you.

The hell is this ****.

 

[Braxton2011]

Marth is pretty easy if you save Un-capped charged Aura Sphere at them when they land after trying to F-air you. Everything else is just timing your aerials to hit RIGHT after Marth is done with his Aerials (small punish window). And his smashes, just punish him, more than likely you'll hit him if your shield stun doesn't push you back far enough.. All else will either be shielded or you fail and you get smashed. (maybe I just suck)

 

[iRJi]

Ill get my post about this later. Should be either long, or short and accurate.

 

[phi1ny3]

Lee Martin says this MU is in our favor.
Hopefully he name searches and goes into detail as to why it is here.

 

[iRJi]

Lee Martin says this MU is in our favor.
Hopefully he name searches and goes into detail as to why it is here.

No........ As much as I am use to this MU, it's still not in our favor.

 

[Browny]

Why are we discussing marth? I don't think anything changed about the match-up.

Yeah, is it just me or has this thread not moved outside of a cycle of S-A tier characters? I dont remember when it was we last did a B or lower lol

 

[Kitamerby]

AS is not a really good idea to punish landing.

The hell is this ****.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

Ftilt is your best move in this matchup. When spaced at tipper range, it's nearly unpunishable, and it can punish misspaced attacks rather easily.

Marth can easily outspace AND outspeed ftilt. It is not even close to the best move in this matchup.

Marth extends his hurtbox on a lot of his moves

*Blank stare*

and even a whiffed fsmash can be punished by ftilt.

A lot can punish a whiffed Marf fsmash. It's a pretty **** unsafe move lol.

Use fsmash sparingly. Most of the time Marth can just sh over it and fair you. The long startup leaves it bait to counter too, and Marth can counter fsmash from near max range and still hit you (Lucario's fsmash outranges it only by a hair).

Fsmash is pretty much your best answer to Marf's air game, actually. If he's constantly hopping over it and fairing you you're doing it wrong. Counter is beyond unreliable as a, uh, counter to fsmash (or anything).

Lucario's quick dash

Asdadfhdghjkjl*Dies*





EDIT:

Yeah, is it just me or has this thread not moved outside of a cycle of S-A tier characters? I dont remember when it was we last did a B or lower lol

Why have we not rediscussed G&W? I don't think there's a single ratio that needs readjusting more than that.

 

[phi1ny3]

Actually, Stauffy's quite right.
There's a basic break down of what you should do vs. Marth's fair:
If he's zoning regularly, wait for the fair then fsmash which will net it
If he's zoning into you more or moving forward with fair more aggressively, or if he SH double fairs, roll behind. It's not to say this will work every time, but this is very effective, just make sure you do it before he gets grounded, otherwise he has access to Dancing Blade.
If he retreats, buckle him with AS.
tbh fair is good but it has weakness against a solid footed punish. You have a window to take advantage of, if this were a MU where you were forced to approach I could see then why marth fair would absolutely wreck Lucario. The biggest issue is that there's a lot of capability for Lucario to punish Marth while he's in the air for doing something wrong, Marth fortunately has more to gain from approaching from the air, because the wrong response on Lucario's end will clobber him especially near the edge. imo it's between 40:60 and 45:55 Marth's favor since they both have ways to punish each other's stuff, but Marth's tools are better and has a better edgeguarding ability than ours (although we can pretty much gimp Marth just as much as they can to us). I think the only department that actually matters at high levels of play that we trump in is kill ability, as any marth is aware of the relative unsafe nature of some of their options on block, it's not likely you will be able to take advantage of that mechanic. Oh yeah, and the other advantage Lucario has is not having to approach.

Edit: Lee Martin, Lee, Lee Martiiiiiin.
Name search mangz D:

 

[culexus・wau]

I find Trading hits with Marth not that bad in the middle-ish %s

In the end we outlast him and it just packs on our Aura Boost.



I believe we can harass Marth's recovery somewhat but Gimps will be rare, doable but rare <<

 

[phi1ny3]

Sorry, edgeguard is the better term.

 

[culexus・wau]

For me edgeguard implies we'd get a kill or even better off of it.

I just think we can just get some % off of it and maybe like a dair stage spike/fair chain out of his jump -> edgehog everyone once in a blue moon.

Watch for that jump though, its the most important part of marths recovery and without it he's in a bad position.

 

[-Ran]

I know the Marth vs Lucario match up rather well since I've played Lee Martin a ton. Actually, I tend to know any character vs Lucario well due to the spacing knowledge I have of the character. I'll just say some general things that may or may not have been said.

1) Your dair is going to be baited and punished with a Uair. It isn't safe against Marth. At the same time, you can use it if your spacing is superior to bait Marth to use an aerial Uair which has REALLY bad lag time. So basically if Marth is jumping UP at you, don't dair. Or save your fast fall, and fast fall into him while dairing.
2) Though Marth spaces with Fair, he shouldn't use it if you're in a position to shield unless he is intentionally falling at a range that will cause you to either drop shield to grab, or to attack. Both of these options can be covered with an UP B. Properly spaced and read fairs are SCARY.
3) At high percents [when you're at your strongest] stick to chipping damage onto Marth with safe options. Don't do any multihit moves, since you'll just get UP-Bed.
4) Don't spot dodge in this match up. Roll is pretty safe. Maybe ten times a match, max.
5) If Marth is jumping at you with fair/nair spacing, shield or retreat. At high percents, do not drop your shield after the first fair, Marth can bait stuff to up B for a kill.
6) Marth's grabs aren't going to kill you, they are all set ups early on for juggles. Don't be a dumb and air dodge immediately out of a grab, you'll get punished -hard.-
7) Marth is ligher than Toon Link. Scary.
8) Don't get in a Fair battle with Marth. It isn't fair. =p
9) Always make sure to have a charged Aura Sphere. It baits air dodges off the edge when people are recovering, and can be used to make Marth's mediocre recovery worse.
10) Marth is a spacing character, you must stay busy at all times against him when you are camping/avoiding. B-reversal Aura spheres for spacing, empty short hops, etc. Do random stuff to make Marth over analysis. Make sure you stay safe at all times though.
11) Sometimes when you think you should Dair, b-reversal instead. It'll make Marth hold back on his Uair, which might give you a free follow up [especially if you have your jump.]
12) Learn the spacing of Marth's F-smash, and use it to punish. Use deceptively 'nonlaggy' moves or moves that you know the lag of by heart to create false situations for your opponent to think they have a f-smash in.
13) If Marth is below you / you're on a platform, get to the ground asap. You both share the same weakness, being weak from the bottom. [At least against Marth since he can defeat your dair consistently.] Marth is used to living with his ****ty dair/blind spot. You need to avoid similar situations.
14) If Marth is jumping at you and you're in the air, DI away from him if possible. Your aerial speeds are around the same, so he won't be able to catch you to hit. Typically I find Lucario's that don't know the match up attempt to get Marth below them, since their dair is usually so powerful.

That's about all I can really think of right now since it's late. I typically focus on punishing the 'dair reaction' of Lucario players.

 

[RT]

Ran, remind me to get some friendlies with you at Hobo 21.

 

[-Ran]

Sure RT. I'm hoping learning my new character doesn't throw off my Marth too much. Also, Lee does feel that it is in Lucario's favor. I think the reasoning stems that Lee has unnatural spacing, and is usually out spacing his opponent [thus avoiding kill moves] and has Cajun DI/SDI [so add +20-30% more life a stock.]

Ps: Lee is now aware of the thread since he just came to my apartment. He read it, and will attempt to post later.

 

[RT]

I've been helping Roy learn the matchup, so he really wants to play Lee at Hobo 21, lol. Tell him to play Roy if he comes.

 

[iRJi]

Actually, tbh, Ftilt is one of the best moves you have against Marth. When it comes down to it, he out speeds you period. It is a wiser option to use some of your faster, yet good damaging moves. Ftilt is also safe on block, depending on which character you use it against. Marth is one of the characters who happens to not be able to punish Ftilt easily. So I will have to agree with Fizzle, by saying Ftilt is one of the best options you have against Marth. This of course, is not implying that Fsmash is not good. It is obviously good in this MU for quite a few reasons, but Ftilt plays an important roll in this MU as well. Please, don't forget that.

I will get into more detail later, need to head to school.

Edit:

Ok now that I am at school, I will give my input.

Marth first off is not even, does not matter who says it lol. In terms of speed, range, and options alone, he has the upper hand. Still, even with all of this, he can be taken down if played properly. Marths Fair is known to be a problem, and for him it is a staple. You need to first learn how to get around his fair. I like to break down this move in to 2 parts: Rising and falling fair.

To punish a rising Fair, it is best to let him swing first, and then punish accordingly. Going against Fair by being aggressive will result in a failure on most cases. First, if he goes above you while rising, Utilt, Rising nair, and sometimes Uair, are the proper punishes to use. If he is spacing you while doing the rising Fair, it is best to either punish with Ftilt, or Fair. Fsmashing while he is rising will actually take to long, giving him another option to swing again, or use counter if he sees you use it, so don't do it while he is rising.

Falling Fair on the other hand, is a different story. If he is falling, he has more options then you do, since his move cancels on the floor, giving him more choices from his attacks. If he is not spacing you, he is most likely trying to get behind you since that is your weakspot, and to also add, Marth has a lot of options while behind his opponent. If you notice he is trying to get behind you, try to move away. If he is falling while trying to space you however, Using Fsmash is the viable option. For marths Fair, you need to take careful note on where he is trying to go, and how far he is from you at all times. Anticipating what he is going to do before he does it is key.

Marth is able to cut through AS until you are at about 90+ percent. just a good note to keep in mind.

I would like to add that when Marth is juggle trapping people, the best option marth has for it is actually Bair. While Utilt is a standard, Bair sets up almost the same way, but puts him in less harm in most situations. Not only does it knock you up, it pushes you off the stage, instead of just up. Just keep in mind that Marths will use both Bair and Uair against you to try to keep you in the air as long as possible while he has the advantage.

Playing against Marth is like an all out Zoning game, he wants to keep you at max range of course, but when Lucario is at max range, it is just as much dangerous as Marth, space properly at all costs.

During recovery, Marth is actually open. While it doesn't look like it, Marths recovery is actually pretty weak. For Lucario it is better to punish by basic edge guarding instead of going off the ledge and trying to gimp him. Also, Marth trying to come back onto the stage is very limited in options. His ledge attack is pretty bad, and his rolling attack is pretty obvious because of the animation. Because of this, Marths will normally stand up on the edge as the first option, because in most cases it is their best option. Space properly while he is on the edge, because this is where you can rack up some serious damage. Set yourself near the edge so if they were to stand, they are at risk, but also space yourself far enough from the edge so he can't put you at risk with a ledge hop option. Keep in mind that the same works vise, versa. While Marth has limited options coming back to the stage, he has amazing options for keeping you off. He can harm you just as much as you can harm him if you were the one trying to recover.

Punishing Dancing Blade is very important. If you shield the move, he is open. This is an obvious thing, however. What happens if you get hit by the move?

It is a very imprtant thing to learn how to DI out of the move. While you are at the edge of the blade, or near the middle of it, hold the analog out and diagonal up from the attack, and on your C stick, SDI in the opposite direction the move is comming from. So for an example:

Marth is on the right side, using Dancing blade. As Lucario: Hold the Analog to the left and Diagonal up, while hitting the C stick left as well.

It is very important to learn how to DI and SDI something, as it can get you out of a lot of potential danger not only in this MU, but in everyone. I was getting IMs on how to properly get out of the move from some people from the boards. To properly SDI and DI correctly, the analog is the stick you hold in a direction. Do not tap the Analog stick, as it actually does not help you. The Cstick is the stick you tap. Holding the C stick in one direction does not help you at all, and you must tap it in order for it to properly work on any situation of DI.

I would like to keep my top post clear, that Ftilt is actually important in this Mu. It is of dire importance to learn how to use it in this MU actually. Fsmash is the obvious, but Ftilt is also a staple.

Hope I was clear with everything =].

PS: As I stated before, I will be posting who I got my MU experience from. The Marth experience is from Pierce7d. I am in Pierces crew, and known him since middle school. I also have plenty of games against Neo as well.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

It's not a question of how safe ftilt is, it's that Marth has a laughably easy time outspacing it with moves that are also faster, on both the ground and the air. Your prospects of winning a poking war with Marth if that's how you're using it aren't much better.

*Waits for people to complain about how Stauffy hates ftilt and democracy OH BOY*

 

[iRJi]

No one is going to flame you, so relax lol. If that's how you feel about it, then that's what it is.

Its like I said, Ftilt still is important. In order to do damage, you need a move that is still fast enough to punish, while capitalizing on damage. Ftilt is that move. I am not saying to use it while he is trying to get into your area, I am saying using it as one of your main punish options is a must.

 

[Braxton2011]

Counter attack. Punish his unpunishable attacks.

 

[HK Donut of the Blue Fire]

Counter attack. Punish his unpunishable attacks.

why is marth using counter attack?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I want to see what Lee says, while I do believe it is 60-40 Marth I want to see why others may think it's the other way around.

 

[iRJi]

Counter attack. Punish his unpunishable attacks.

That's an unpunishable attack?, you do know that's false right?

 

[phi1ny3]

I think the info was... vague.

 

[iRJi]

hmm, how so?

 

[-Ran]

If Lee doesn't post in a week, I'll just bring it up in the car to Hobo and write down his notes later for you guys. =)

Something he was saying earlier [which is sooo true] that against Marth you need to start off strong when you're at 0%. Between Fair/nair/grab comboing, you can bait Marth to use a jump, and a Marth without a jump is a DEAD Marth if you can keep the heat on. You need to continue to pressure with your decaying Fair to the point where Marth is off of the stage [almost a bubble!] before you recover back. Even if you get Up B'ed, you're still in a favorable position to punish Marth, since he won't be Up-bing to the edge, and there's always the reality of him just SDing from it.

 

[phi1ny3]

We didn't even know for sure whether he meant the down special counter or just a generic tactic to be used to punish, he didn't even mention who's countering who, let alone attacks or movements.
Lots of blanks imo.

 

[Trela]

All I know is that Lee is awesome with MU's, right, bud!?

Oh, and FP while trying to recover helps against Marth.

 

[phi1ny3]

lol I meant vague about that guy's "counter" post, not RJ's btw.
Oh and Trela, please go on as to what you mean, as FP is usually a trivial move at best.

 

[iRJi]

Even if we are waiting, lets not slow down on the talk about Marth. keep it going. Until Lee posts, what stages do you think are note worthy.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Avoid marthlandBattlefield. I'd rather go to stages like FD or Frigate Orpheon, I've heard people like Brinstar, but I dunno I'm not sure I really like that stage all that much against Marth.

 

[Player-3]

marth v lucario is stupid

his fsmash is so gey

but everything else marth can handle