Should Planking (i.e. Ledgestalling) be Banned?

[AvaricePanda]

Well, how do we DEFINE what is a "problem"?

Something that exists in more than just three infamous matches?

How many people have won tournaments by planking? How many people have even placed well by planking? How many people, on average, even plank at each tournament you go to? Although everyone probably knows the answers to the first two (none and very, very few), no one really knows the latter. How many people do plank? I'd guess not that much at all, but the TOs need to come to us with this information instead of people spewing made-up facts.

Edit: And I agree Melo, we shouldn't let people abuse it as a stalling-technique. But really, we don't know if it is a stalling technique. We know that some characters like Pika or Diddy can get around it pretty simply, but others, when they see someone plank, just stand there and act stupid. I doubt that many people have experimented with it despite the huge debates over it.

Really, it isn't stalling, the opponent is just forced into an approach depending on what character they used and is put in a disadvantageous situation, as far as we know. I hate planking and think this is stupid, but it's not banworthy at this point. Some characters can deal with it, and some characters may find out that it's not such a horrible situation if the character boards start experimenting with what they can do. Too little people do it, and too little people try to get around it.

 

[Melomaniacal]

Something that exists in more than just three infamous matches?

How many people have won tournaments by planking? How many people have even placed well by planking? How many people, on average, even plank at each tournament you go to? Although everyone probably knows the answers to the first two (none and very, very few), no one really knows the latter. How many people do plank? I'd guess not that much at all, but the TOs need to come to us with this information instead of people spewing made-up facts.

Edit: And I agree Melo, we shouldn't let people abuse it as a stalling-technique. But really, we don't know if it is a stalling technique. We know that some characters like Pika or Diddy can get around it pretty simply, but others, when they see someone plank, just stand there and act stupid. I doubt that many people have experimented with it despite the huge debates over it.

Really, it isn't stalling, the opponent is just forced into an approach depending on what character they used and is put in a disadvantageous situation, as far as we know. I hate planking and think this is stupid, but it's not banworthy at this point. Some characters can deal with it, and some characters may find out that it's not such a horrible situation if the character boards start experimenting with what they can do. Too little people do it, and too little people try to get around it.

It can be used for stalling, we have all seen it. That shouldn't be allowed. The ledge grab rule is not removing planking as a viable technique at all. What is wrong with that? It's not banning planking. Why is there a problem? I just want a straight answer to that, haha.

And how exactly would classify stalling?

But I do agree with you that there are ways around it, and more people need to experiment with it. The ledge grab rule would just ensure no one uses planking to stall, and even so, people will still need to find ways around it, because people will still use it.

 

[Mikezor]

why ban this just leave brawl the way it is mang ****... play brawl for fun or money leave it at that imo

 

[swordgard]

After being the victim of seibrik planking/stalling me online today, i must say that yes, it deserves to be banned. Destroys way too many chars.

 

[LoyalSoldier]

I hope that wasn't aimed at me.

I'm not really too sure about it, although supposedly Plank did 69 ledge grabs vs Sk92 in one match, which means like what, 2 more and he would have lost. And I dont think he was stalling in that match, he was just being really campy. Hell I'm pretty sure I saw SK92 pointing out how funny it was that people were still out raged at the match.

Actually if you don't consider flying under the stage stalling then I guess he wasn't.

Plank did a little more than just grab the edge a bunch of times.

 

[TheFast]

Was this really such a bad match? SK92 played pretty evenly for the first stock and the first half of the second stock and was even up quite a bit. He had trouble landing a kill move on the second stock which let Plank get a substantial percentage lead for the third stock. He made somewhat of a comeback on the third stock, getting Plank up to 61%, but he ended up not being able to make up for the deficit on the second stock.

It just seems strange to me that a match that is an example of how broken planking is supposed to be involving one of the best characters at doing it against one supposedly one of the worst at countering it ends on the last stock at mid%. Shouldn't this have been much less close?

Inorite

Bringing this back up because he is completely correct >_>

After being the victim of seibrik planking/stalling me online today, i must say that yes, it deserves to be banned. Destroys way too many chars.

So because it happened to you ONE time and you couldnt figure out how to get around it ONE time it deserves a ban? What is becoming of the smash community?

 

[Falconv1.0]

Actually if you don't consider flying under the stage stalling then I guess he wasn't.

Plank did a little more than just grab the edge a bunch of times.

Eh, I'm sorry, I should've worded that A LOT better. Totally my *******ery on that part.

I dont think the planking really was the stalling part, as much as it was his entire strategy.

 

[Dantarion]

An MK is grabbing the ledge repeatedly.

I am an MK. What can I do to attack that doesn't put me at some kind of disadvantage?

Oh, thats right, pretty much NOTHING.

So, what do I do? Stand there. And wait. And wait. And wait.

 

[Falconv1.0]

An MK is grabbing the ledge repeatedly.

I am an MK. What can I do to attack that doesn't put me at some kind of disadvantage?

Oh, thats right, pretty much NOTHING.

So, what do I do? Stand there. And wait. And wait. And wait.

Is this seriously an argument as to why there should be some type of rule on ledge grabs or just banning planking in general?

Wow, let's ban Falco or Snake on FD, there's no was as Kirby that I can really approach Snake with his grenades and I basically have to crouch to force the Falco to approach, or slowly approach.


Here's an example. Plank is MK. He's ledge stalling. What does Azen do? Beat that ****? What does Plank nevar evar do Azen evar again forevaaaaaaarr!?


(And what the **** is 'an meta knight'?)

 

[RP`]

Wow, let's ban Falco or Snake on FD, there's no was as Kirby that I can really approach Snake with his grenades and I basically have to crouch to force the Falco to approach, or slowly approach.

Sooooo... let's ban the standing infinite of D3 on DK...

eh? EH?

oh. ._.

 

[Gaudeo]

Instituting a reasonable ledge grab rule wouldn't effectively ban planking, but it would cut down it's use as a stalling tactic while leaving it a viable option for a daring player who wants to use it for tactical advantage. All we need to do is have a few major tournament organizers require reporting of the edge grab stats from the end of a match so that we can average out the number of grabs that would be considered reasonable before a match loss (or whatever penalty is applied).
I don't condone banning a particular strategy because it is hard to deal with, but planking to stall is an abuse of the system and we should act as a community to put a stop to it. I like having judges to settle disputes, but that is too subjective in this particular case.

 

[Eddie G]

Instituting a reasonable ledge grab rule wouldn't effectively ban planking, but it would cut down it's use as a stalling tactic while leaving it a viable option for a daring player who wants to use it for tactical advantage.
I don't condone banning a particular strategy because it is hard to deal with, but planking to stall is an abuse of the system and we should act as a community to put a stop to it.

^ Very well said

People, pay closer attention to the bold statement. It is not to ban planking, but to cut down on its use as a stalling tactic. I thought I had a better solution, but this fits the bill perfectly.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Do we really have an interesting in preventing stalling for time? To me, "stalling tactic" only means tactics that keep the user totally safe indefinitely. Tactics that make the user pretty safe indefinitely or totally safe for a limited time simply don't fit the bill. Just doing something clever that delays battle like jumping around a lot as Wario also doesn't fit at all; that is the English word "stalling" in the sense that you wish to do something later, but it's not "stalling" as in the thing we ban with "stalling is banned".

The issue I take with Gaudeo's position is that his argument essentially amounts to the position that implementing this rule will improve the metagame while not banning anything. I cannot say for sure whether that's true or false which may be an interesting argument itself, but isn't it radical and dangerous itself to change the rules specifically to improve the metagame? I know this is a point not everyone will agree with me on, but as I see it, the purpose of rules is to prevent broken stuff, and metagames are things that are left to take care of themselves. Improvement is always subjective is the biggest problem; what's making the game better to you may be making it worse to someone else. Using rules to remove innovation is the secondary concern; if you find some great abuse, the expectation is that you're going to win a lot if you are also skilled enough to take advantage of it. Even if you aren't very skilled, you expect your performance to improve. If the abuses you find get banned or limited into obsolescence even when you aren't breaking the game, why look for them in the first place? If faced with an abuse, why try very hard to counter it if you can get the rules changed instead? That actually leads to a stagnant metagame faster than anything. I know it's really tempting to look at planking and decide, regardless of whether it's truly broken, it's really obnoxious and quite good and makes the game less fun so there's no harm in preventing it from happening. This decision alone probably doesn't stand to ruin the game, but it can do damage, and this really is the road to ruin. If you are truly convinced that planking is completely gamebreaking and unstoppable, I can't say your vote for a totally objective rule like the ledge grab limit is a bad choice, but please do be that convinced beforehand.

 

[HiddenBowser]

This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ is probably the smartest post I've seen in this thread... Everyone else needs to read it carefully.

 

[Melomaniacal]

^ Very well said

People, pay closer attention to the bold statement. It is not to ban planking, but to cut down on its use as a stalling tactic. I thought I had a better solution, but this fits the bill perfectly.

Are you kidding me? I have been saying this exact thing for like four pages, and everyone just ignores it.
I even said it to you and you disagreed.


In fact, I have outright requested multiple times for people to respond to that, and Ampharos was the only one sort of responding to it.

 

[RP`]

Are you kidding me? I have been saying this exact thing for like four pages, and everyone just ignores it.
I even said it to you and you disagreed.


In fact, I have outright requested multiple times for people to respond to that, and Ampharos was the only one sort of responding to it.

If it makes you happy I didn't ignore it and I agreed with it. n_n

 

[Melomaniacal]

If it makes you happy I didn't ignore it and I agreed with it. n_n

Haha, nah I'm just messing around. As annoying being ignored is, I don't care
As long as it's read.

 

[MorphedChaos]

Do we really have an interesting in preventing stalling for time? To me, "stalling tactic" only means tactics that keep the user totally safe indefinitely. Tactics that make the user pretty safe indefinitely or totally safe for a limited time simply don't fit the bill. Just doing something clever that delays battle like jumping around a lot as Wario also doesn't fit at all; that is the English word "stalling" in the sense that you wish to do something later, but it's not "stalling" as in the thing we ban with "stalling is banned".

The issue I take with Gaudeo's position is that his argument essentially amounts to the position that implementing this rule will improve the metagame while not banning anything. I cannot say for sure whether that's true or false which may be an interesting argument itself, but isn't it radical and dangerous itself to change the rules specifically to improve the metagame? I know this is a point not everyone will agree with me on, but as I see it, the purpose of rules is to prevent broken stuff, and metagames are things that are left to take care of themselves. Improvement is always subjective is the biggest problem; what's making the game better to you may be making it worse to someone else. Using rules to remove innovation is the secondary concern; if you find some great abuse, the expectation is that you're going to win a lot if you are also skilled enough to take advantage of it. Even if you aren't very skilled, you expect your performance to improve. If the abuses you find get banned or limited into obsolescence even when you aren't breaking the game, why look for them in the first place? If faced with an abuse, why try very hard to counter it if you can get the rules changed instead? That actually leads to a stagnant metagame faster than anything. I know it's really tempting to look at planking and decide, regardless of whether it's truly broken, it's really obnoxious and quite good and makes the game less fun so there's no harm in preventing it from happening. This decision alone probably doesn't stand to ruin the game, but it can do damage, and this really is the road to ruin. If you are truly convinced that planking is completely gamebreaking and unstoppable, I can't say your vote for a totally objective rule like the ledge grab limit is a bad choice, but please do be that convinced beforehand.

The whole point I can see to banning planking is to make the games less defensive and a little more offensive, like in Japan.

 

[_Phloat_]

Like in Japan where this ban originally started?

>_>

Stalling works in all areas of the world.

 

[Melomaniacal]

Like in Japan where this ban originally started?

>_>

Stalling works in all areas of the world.

Japan didn't ban planking. They have the ledge grab rule.

Which does not ban planking.

 

[SKnickers03]

i voted for the edge grab limit, but then i remebered how a part of pits offensive game is dependent on legegrabbing

does anyone see a difference between MKs use of the ledge compared to pits?

 

[Falconv1.0]

i voted for the edge grab limit, but then i remebered how a part of pits offensive game is dependent on legegrabbing

does anyone see a difference between MKs use of the ledge compared to pits?

How can offense be tied to ledge grabbing, which would be used for, uh, defense.

 

[SKnickers03]

How can offense be tied to ledge grabbing, which would be used for, uh, defense.

pit users tend to go from a ledgegrab to a projectile over and over again

Edit: or ledgegrab to Nair

 

[Falconv1.0]

pit users tend to go from a ledgegrab to a projectile over and over again

Edit: or ledgegrab to Nair

That sounds like...defense.

 

[SKnickers03]

youre missing the point

defense or offense...theres a similarity between pits use of the ledge and MKs...yet people seem to be okay (or at least not bring it up) with pit for the simple fact that hes not MK...so is the concept of planking clear enough that one is allowed and another not?

 

[Falconv1.0]

youre missing the point

defense or offense...theres a similarity between pits use of the ledge and MKs...yet people seem to be okay (or at least not bring it up) with pit for the simple fact that hes not MK...so is the concept of planking clear enough that one is allowed and another not?

I'd think Pit is much more vulnerable, and prolly wouldn't even be able to reach 50 regrabs.

And no, I'm not missing the point, I'm telling you to word yours better.

 

[XienZo]

youre missing the point

defense or offense...theres a similarity between pits use of the ledge and MKs...yet people seem to be okay (or at least not bring it up) with pit for the simple fact that hes not MK...so is the concept of planking clear enough that one is allowed and another not?

The main difference is that Pit lacks an instant (massive) punisher (Shuttle Loop) from the ledge, and a good instant GTFO move when dropping down (uair) that MK has. MK also has much better aerials in general to fend off and gimp someone who's going off the stage to get him.

 

[Melomaniacal]

I'd think Pit is much more vulnerable, and prolly wouldn't even be able to reach 70 regrabs.

And no, I'm not missing the point, I'm telling you to word yours better.

Once again, it would be 50 grabs, not 70. 70 is only in Japan where they play 10 minute matches. We would use 50 or 57 grabs.
But you would DEFINITELY not reach 50 grabs in a 7 minute match. Unless your planking to stall.

For the love of god people: PLEASE KEEP TRACK OF HOW MANY LEDGE GRABS YOU GET IN A MATCH. You will be surprised.

 

[Falconv1.0]

Once again, it would be 50 grabs, not 70. 70 is only in Japan where they play 10 minute matches. We would use 50 or 57 grabs.

Right, my bad. Either way I dont think his edge game is good enough to even be even compared to planking.

 

[AvaricePanda]

The problem with putting the edge-grab limit in place now is that we're putting a soft ban (for lack of a better word, I know it's not a ban) on a tactic that we don't even know is broken. The rule is clearly designed to encourage ledge camping and eliminate planking, but we don't know if planking is a broken tactic. Quite a bit of characters as of now can already get around it, while others can probably do so without getting themselves in a bad position, it's just that people don't experiment with planking enough to know.

Seriously, we shouldn't put a soft "ban" on something that isn't banworthy to any extent. Planking is just a difficult thing to get around for most, not completely broken to everyone.

 

[rehab]

Japan isn't even that offensive.

 

[Lythium]

Instituting a reasonable ledge grab rule wouldn't effectively ban planking, but it would cut down it's use as a stalling tactic while leaving it a viable option for a daring player who wants to use it for tactical advantage. All we need to do is have a few major tournament organizers require reporting of the edge grab stats from the end of a match so that we can average out the number of grabs that would be considered reasonable before a match loss (or whatever penalty is applied).
I don't condone banning a particular strategy because it is hard to deal with, but planking to stall is an abuse of the system and we should act as a community to put a stop to it. I like having judges to settle disputes, but that is too subjective in this particular case.

By far, this opinion on the planking matter is the best I have read.

 

[Melomaniacal]

The problem with putting the edge-grab limit in place now is that we're putting a soft ban (for lack of a better word, I know it's not a ban) on a tactic that we don't even know is broken. The rule is clearly designed to encourage ledge camping and eliminate planking, but we don't know if planking is a broken tactic. Quite a bit of characters as of now can already get around it, while others can probably do so without getting themselves in a bad position, it's just that people don't experiment with planking enough to know.

Seriously, we shouldn't put a soft "ban" on something that isn't banworthy to any extent. Planking is just a difficult thing to get around for most, not completely broken to everyone.

The thing is that the ledge grab rule would not remove planking at all. It will still exist as a viable and usable tactic. I can only see it affecting planking for the first few tournaments, when people aren't comfortable with the rule yet. Once they realize that you can still plank effectively with the rule in place, you'll see that things won't even change that much. It will literally only affect those who chose to plank as a stalling method. Those of you (most of the plankers) who use planking as a defensive camping method will not be affected at all by this rule.

By far, this opinion on the planking matter is the best I have read.

Gr, I've been saying that exact same thing for like 5 pages, haha. I never get any credit for anything! I'm going to my room and crying!
WAAAAAH!

 

[codefelp]

The way I see it is that planking is only an unbeatable tactic when used by Meta Knight. Why ban planking when you can just ban him and not have this problem in the first place? XD lol

 

[Falconv1.0]

The way I see it is that planking is only an unbeatable tactic when used by Meta Knight. Why ban planking when you can just ban him and not have this problem in the first place? XD lol

It's technically a tactic employed mainly if not only by him, and uh, it's not beatable, only idiots claim that it is. We dont ban him because top level players aren't ****ing ********.

 

[ArcPoint]

Do we really have an interesting in preventing stalling for time? To me, "stalling tactic" only means tactics that keep the user totally safe indefinitely. Tactics that make the user pretty safe indefinitely or totally safe for a limited time simply don't fit the bill. Just doing something clever that delays battle like jumping around a lot as Wario also doesn't fit at all; that is the English word "stalling" in the sense that you wish to do something later, but it's not "stalling" as in the thing we ban with "stalling is banned".

Then under this logic, gliding back and forth underneath the stage isn't stalling either, but we have it banned as such. It isn't totally safe indefinitely. When you glide back towards the ledge you ARE vulnerable and CAN get hit. Even if it is Metaknight. Gliding back and forth under the stage falls under the "Totally safe for a limited time" (The only time you aren't safe is when you go back for the ledge). You are absolutely NOT safe indefinitely, so, according to you, it is not stalling. But most TOs I'm sure would consider it stalling. What's the difference?

 

[sMexy-Blu]

Why the hell everyone's name is green LOL

 

[Man of Popsicle]

Why the hell everyone's name is green LOL

And mods went yellow.

 

[Plairnkk]

This whole thread is hilarious

 

[Underload]

Although I haven't personally seen much planking with the people I play with, videos on Youtube have convinced me that an edgegrab rule (at least a temporary one) may lead to some improvement in planking.