Should Metaknight Be Banned? The Poll (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[Jim Morrison]

I was fairly indecisive, but I voted "no". For two reasons:

1) So much time has been put into advancing MK's metagame that, even if it has made him near unbeatable, it would be a waste and unfair to lose all that work.

2) I don't think MK himself is the problem. I think certain moves are the problem, and to make some sort of balance, I'd probably be up for banning too many Tornadoes.

1) Don't lie, you know as well as anyone that you can just play MK and immedeatly work. You train him for a week and you beat good players in no-time. No to metagame

2)Definite no to move banning. You can't possible ban a move, period

 

[dawgbowl]

Is it bad that I care more about this than McCain vs Obama?

>_>

 

[Yuna-Maria]

this poll means nothing. 80% of the votes of by scubs

Oh, I agree. Those rotten scubs ruin everything. By the way, who are you?

Is it bad that I care more about this than McCain vs Obama?

>_>

It's bad that you care about Brawl. Giggity.

 

[Overswarm]

Is it bad that I care more about this than McCain vs Obama?

>_>

At least in this you know that MK is obviously the one ruining something.

 

[CR4SH]

Is it bad that I care more about this than McCain vs Obama?

>_>

Are you over 18? If so, then yes.

Maybe it doesn't say anything less about you as a person, but it's for ****ed sure a miserable commentary on the state of our democracy.

and if you're wondering, obama would be for the ban, to help out the middle (tiers)class.

Mccain would be against the ban, becuase he's against regulation of all sorts, and general government (SBR?) meddling.

 

[M.K]

I was fairly indecisive, but I voted "no". For two reasons:

1) So much time has been put into advancing MK's metagame that, even if it has made him near unbeatable, it would be a waste and unfair to lose all that work.

2) I don't think MK himself is the problem. I think certain moves are the problem, and to make some sort of balance, I'd probably be up for banning too many Tornadoes.

Wow....you are afraid of losing all of the "work" that has been put into Meta-Knight?? Based on that work, we have come to this conflict to ban/keep Meta-Knight. It has gone to use.

Secondly, MK's moves are the problem -_-. We can't ban 75% of Meta-Knight, we can't ban 23.4% of Meta-Knight. That is WAY too subjective. You'd be saying "No, that was too many D-Smashes! Disqualified" or "3 D-Smashes in a row? I did that last tournament and didn't get banned!".
It's a 100% ban or nothing. That's it.

 

[dawgbowl]

I just hate McCain and Obama equally.

I won't vote for either, I am either writing in Arnold (just arnold... we all know who)
or Stephen Colbert or John Stewart.

1. because I really don't like either president/ and only one VP (biden wouldnt be too bad)
2. I live in Maryland, you know the last time this state voted republican? probably never. Obama killed Hilary here so why wouldn't he kill McCain. Only reason we had a republican governor for a while was because he ran against a woman and America is still sexist (see Hilary)

So that is why I care more about this.

 

[infomon]

^^

1. Obama killed Hillary? Holy freaking crap!!

2. Do you think that Hillary didn't win because she's a woman? (just curious...)

3. Obamaknight should be banned, he has no bad match-ups.

 

[ImpactAR]

WakerofWinds,

Wow. I have to say. I agree with everything you said. You also took some quotes and address them with the exact thought I have. Like you, agree with what JustKindaBoredUKno stated. I lika you.

 

[da K.I.D.]

you cant ban parts of MK because all the different MKs use the moves differently, and all the characters get ***** by different moves.

some MKs are tornado whores, some shuttle loop too much, some just camp with forward air, others spam n-air and f-tilt.

if you ban tornado, not only will the shuttle loop spammers be completely uneffected, but the tornado whores will probably start spamming SL BECAUSE they cant use tornado anymore, and then were right back to square one

 

[Ulevo]

He is required to win on the very highest level. It's not easy to beat him. In fact it's almost impossible. It's not even close to being easy to beat, or even a really even match up.

How the hell do you know if he is required for the highest level of play? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see your name in any major tournaments on the top three placements. You know who plays at the highest level? M2K. Azen. DSF. Don't talk as if you know what is required to win at the top echelon of this game if you've never even experienced it.

He is not required to win. He is not impossible to beat, or even near impossible. He is difficult, and he is the best character (arguably), but that does not make him broken.

We ban Meta Knight when he is REQUIRED in order to win. Tournament records show HE ISN'T.

 

[MorphedChaos]

You can't ban a move in a game like Smash Brothers, as unlike other fighting games where it takes a long string of button commands, Brawl, you only need to press one button, and you do the move, limiting the potential moves first off, second, its easy to make a mistake.

Not to mention, If you banned MK's move and NOT him, then that means...
No Dsmash
No Shuttle Loop
No Tornado
No Fair

What does that leave MK with? Just about nothing to work with first off, Second, like I said, its easy to make an accidental move with him. And if we go by this criteria, know what? Snakes Tilts get banned, D3's CG gets banned, Bowser's Release CG gets banned, Pika's Thunderjolts get banned... THAT will snowball.

If we ban MK however, a snowball effect WONT happen, as all other characters can be beaten by another character at M2K/Azen level of play, but MK can't.

****it... I caught the Yuna. I'd just like to say, you can't have a semi-ban, only a full ban. Either that or MK and No MK tournies, thats about all we can get T.T

 

[CR4SH]

First of all, who the hell is arguing that metaknight isn't the best.

Also, if you believe praxis' group, he has more tourny wins than the next 7 characters combined. Lolwut?

 

[Affinity]

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5637111&postcount=74

 

[M.K]

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5637111&postcount=74

We have tried and failed to develop our characters beyond the skill needed to defeat a Meta-Knight consistently...This is what you don't know.
It's not working, it has never worked. Skill is a human factor, but when the actual computed factor ranks Meta-Knight above everyone anyways, the human factor just adds or subtracts to this.

 

[IceDX]

M2K is right...........

 

[Justblaze647]

and if you're wondering, obama would be for the ban, to help out the middle (tiers)class.

Mccain would be against the ban, becuase he's against regulation of all sorts, and general government (SBR?) meddling.

Post of the Year!

 

[Praxis]

I don't want him banned, but I want to stop seeing like 60% of tourney attendees playing him. I don't mind facing em in tourney, but **** it's boring

Heck, this is my hidden primary motivation. He makes the game unfun.

 

[choknater]

Ice Climbers really obliterates MK on Final Destination IMO.

 

[Ulevo]

Let me take a couple of minutes to address somethings that, well, need to be addressed



Anyone on the "no" side of the argument who uses THIS argument as part of what they're saying doesn't understand anything that's going on. This isn't what we're talking about to a large extent, and shouldn't even come up. For the record, Falco, Sheik, Fox, Marth, they were good, yeah, BUT GUESS WHAT PEOPLE!?!?!? THEY HAD COUNTERS. As a result, this should not come up in your general thinking when we talk about this topic, it isn't a good argument, don't bring it up anymore, please. MK has no TRUE counter but himself. Yoshi's close at best, but nobody has the advantage over MK.

Eddie from Guilty Gear does not have counters. He was not banned. Ever. Fox did not have counters. Zero. He wasn't banned. Do you even know what a counter is?

This is, in general, a good idea, yes. However, chances are we'll never make it that far. We've BEEN studying playstyle, we've BEEN trying to fight him, but to no avail, it's a sad truth. I won't bother to quote myself about the community thing, but which would you rather lose? A character or a community?

Do you think the community will simply vanish if Meta Knight hangs around? That would only happen in the event where tournaments only hosted Meta Knight players, where he was the only viable character. That is not the case now, and it is very unlikely that it will happen in the future. Don't try to act like the community itself is in peril and use that as justification to ban a character unless it is actually obvious you can't win.

This.
First of all, I'm honored by being put into a signature.
Second, this guy has it exactly right. Let's look at it this way. Say we're all farmers, and the characters are crops who need to grow with water and sunshine. In this analogy, they would be competing for water and sunshine. The way things are going, MK is a very strong plant that turns out to be a weed. The weed grows and grows and can't be stopped unless it's killed at the source(the character himself). Otherwise, it'll choke out the other plants(characters) until there's nothing left of them but remnants of the greatness that once was, or may have been. Do you see where this is going? If we keep putting it off, it will end up being too late. (By the way, this is REALLY random, but it came to mind, so I went with it)

That is a rather bad analogy. And by the way, this is a competitive community, which revolves around a competitive fighting game. In every competitive fighting game ever made, there have always been a best character(s) that, in most if not all circumstances, you would have the best chance to win. That is what makes them the Top Tier, or the S Rank characters they are. We still don't ban them. We ban them if they are broken. You want to know how we tell if they're broken? If skill to win is no longer a significant factor when playing with/against said character. There are skilled opponents out there who beat not only average Meta Knights all the time, but even some of the best of them. It is easier to win with Meta Knight, but how easy it is to play with Meta Knight, or win with him, should not be the deciding factor on whether or not a character is too powerful for a competitive game. Ice Climbers are very difficult to play to the same extent Meta Knight is. They are still High Tier.

I doubt that a ton of them are scrubs. Stop using the term around here in this setting, it isn't needed and feels very out of place. MK is beatable, at maybe our level. Go to the top, it's not happening so much. Also, what fun is being a HALF MK. If you have to be MK to get into the top 3, don't you see the problem? You JUST pointed it out. If we wait too long it'll be too late.

You just totally contradicted yourself. First off, again, you have no idea of the level of play "the top" even consist of. You're just assuming Meta Knight is unstoppable at that level. If you have to play Meta Knight to get into the top three, it means that you need a character that is easy to play with in order to compensate for the skill you lack. Meta Knight is very easy to play with. Difficult to play =/= Character potential. They're two totally different things, and you can't use ease of play as a reason for a character ban.

Stop bringing in personal stories. I'm just picking on you because you're on this page, but, honestly? Nobody cares. Oh look, I can beat my friend's meta because I'm BETTER THEN HIM. But look, if we're even, he wins every time. I wonder why... You're missing the point of this argument, please try again later.

Guess what? In Melee, if you and I played one another, and we were equal in skill, and I chose Fox while you chose [insert character here], I win every time. That's reality. I suggest you get over it and stop using it as a reason to your arguments.

LISTEN. All of you people going around with the argument "he's not broken he's not broken, look at x and y and z characters, they weren't banned." You're missing the argument. The point is, even if he isn't NEEDED, he's being used as if he is. Maybe you're not doing it, or your friends aren't doing it, but a large amount of the community IS doing it. The metagame is at a point where it's stalling for most characters. Why do you think the MK mainers have such an easy time coming up with counters to things that other characters can do against them? Because MK is just THAT good. Every little thing that gets found is tosses off as nothing because MK can just walk around it. Not run, not fly, walk. He's too good, he's ruining the metagame and the tournament scene isn't benefiting any from his presence. He's a problem, we need to deal with him, now, before it's too late.

That turned out a lot longer then i thought it would be...

Edit: And ONE more thing... As a community, people are saying "If we ban MK, we can ban everyone!" No That's not how it works. We have to take the initiative, as a community, and ban him ourselves. We have to take the risk. Yes, the door will be opened to talks of banning, but it doesn't mean they'll go through, they probably won't.

I'm not even going to address this. He is stagnating the game due to his amount of use, but every other point you've made is totally skewed and very close minded.

 

[M.K]

Eddie from Guilty Gear does not have counters. He was not banned. Ever. Fox did not have counters. Zero. He wasn't banned. Do you even know what a counter is?.

http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Image:Allcharactermatchupschart.PNG

Excuse me? Fox had counters. Obviously. Even if he didn't, he didn't completely dominate the metagame like Meta-Knight is.
Fox was hard to beat, but not nigh-impossible. Meta-Knight is nigh impossible.
Get your facts right before you post about Melee.

 

[Fatmanonice]

I was fairly indecisive, but I voted "no". For two reasons:

1) So much time has been put into advancing MK's metagame that, even if it has made him near unbeatable, it would be a waste and unfair to lose all that work.

2) I don't think MK himself is the problem. I think certain moves are the problem, and to make some sort of balance, I'd probably be up for banning too many Tornadoes.

1. No offense but I almost fell out of my chair laughing when I read this. Diddy Kong's metagame has advanced a ton since Brawl has come out. Peach's metagame has advanced a ton since Brawl has come out. Snake's metagame has advanced a ton since Brawl has come out. Yoshi's metagame has advanced a ton since Brawl has come out. Wario's metagame has advanced a ton since Brawl has come out. Metaknight's metagame has changed very little since the game was released and he still dominates tournaments. Basically the only major thing that Metaknight players have "picked up" over the months is how to deal with Snake who used to be his only counter. As mentioned many times before, Metaknight is so laughably easy pick up and play that many people can easily transition to him within the course of a day or two. With all this being said, the amount of "work" put into Metaknight is a mere fraction of the work put into pretty every other character.

2. You would then have to deal with different people's interpretations per tournament. How much is too much of a certain attack? How do you penialize it? Telling a Pit player that he can spam arrows like a ****** the whole match while telling a Metaknight player he can only use the mach tornado 1 or 2 times per stock is a tad stupid, wouldn't you agree? Personally, I'd like an alternative to banning too but banning moves that are not broken is extremelly inpractical because then people will start coming out of the woodworks and say Diddy's bananas are broken or Zelda's din's fire or Falco's lazers. What people need to understand is that it's not just a few moves that people have trouble with when it comes to Metaknight; it's the whole package.

 

[linkez]

"worldwide's players became so noobish..."

 

[Justblaze647]

you see this is where people decide to be dumb. Sheik is the best in melee despite tourney evidence, you cannot just base off what people play. Jigglypuff doesn't suddenly get way better when mango uses her, she was always that good, it's just no one good (or not enough good people, especially not enough to find the right player) played her seriously or DEVELOPED HER CHARACTER. This is the problem with the brawl community, all you guys do is whine and john instead of using other characters and playing with them. Almost every character has been undeveloped a ton. When you have an extreme amount of MKs all playing and copying off each other and tons of people using him, he is going to take a lot of top places. That's why your argument, that argument, is not a good one.

Well... if that's the case... why don't you teach us all a lesson in honor and gallantry and stop playing MK? Why dont you show us some of Ganon's untapped potential? If you're going to reprimand the Brawl community for johning and whining all the time, why don't you just do what you're preaching about... pick up another character... and go win a major tourney? Why? Because you know just as well as we do that someone else will just pick up MK and beat you senseless. Which is why when (not if) MK gets banned, it'll be you and all of your MK underlings that'll be johning and whining... not us.

 

[M.K]

Well... if that's the case... why don't you teach us all a lesson in honor and gallantry and stop playing MK? Why dont you show us some of Ganon's untapped potential? If you're going to reprimand the Brawl community for johning and whining all the time, why don't you just do what you're preaching about... pick up another character... and go win a major tourney? Why? Because you know just as well a we do that someone else will just pick up MK and beat you senseless. Which is why when (not if) MK gets banned, it'll be you and all of your MK underlings that'll be johning and whining... not us.

I think I might love you.
Make logic babies with me.

 

[DMG]

He is not required to win. He is not impossible to beat, or even near impossible. He is difficult, and he is the best character (arguably), but that does not make him broken.

We ban Meta Knight when he is REQUIRED in order to win. Tournament records show HE ISN'T.

At higher levels of play, if MK loses, it is because of either 2 reasons:

1) The player makes personal mistakes rather than there being an inherent flaw in MK or

2) The player is of lesser skill or does not have the proper matchup knowledge, which points back somewhat to #1.

Also, have you looked at tournament results? You do realize he dominates most tournaments? When he doesn't win, it's usually either that the person without MK is better or the person with MK isn't too familiar with the matchup or made mistakes himself.

Also, I have not voted, I don't plan on doing so. No matter what side I pick, it would be dividing the community further, even though I doubt one vote from me would make the division all that much deeper anyways. :/

 

[Justblaze647]

I think I might love you.
Make logic babies with me.

LMAO! Really? I thought I was going to get bashed for making that post about M2K...

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

If he were required to win, wouldn't he win almost 100% of tournaments? Assuming one character is a sure thing win, we'd assume any tournament with more than a small number of skilled players would be won by that character since at least one of them would decide to use that character and win what is likely a substantial cash prize "for free" (unless they all are using that character... in which case that character wins anyway). The stats have been elusive since Ankoku took down that list, but let's say for the sake of argument that Meta Knight wins 1/3 tournaments. If that's true, that means a tournament winner at an arbitrary tournament is twice as likely to use a character other than Meta Knight than to use Meta Knight. Does that sound like "required to win" to you? Come back when he wins so many tournaments that it's clear that the people winning with other characters are only doing so because they are stubborn (that means him winning something more like 90%+ of tournaments).

I would also point out all this hype is going to really skew things in Meta Knight's favor statistically. After all, the position "using Meta Knight is how you win" isn't an uncommon position, and a rational person who really believed that would definitely use Meta Knight. I am pretty sure at this point that Meta Knight is used well beyond what his actual worth should entitle him to, I'm not convinced he has no bad matchups so much as he has no obviously bad matchups (that means the door is still quite open to him having small disadvantages), and that the other top characters are overall just as good to the point where I'm not sure that it's clear that he's the best. He also has the advantage that a lot of players have a large bias toward aggressive playstyles, and he's far and away more aggressive than anyone else who is top tier material. It's really easy to come up with a variety of explanations for Meta Knight's performance that don't involve him being broken or even the obviously best character.

Also, criticising Mew2King for using Meta Knight is pretty silly. How dare he use his preferred character? It should be obvious that everyone can use whatever character he wants, and the "threat" of "if you do too well with your character, we'll ban it" is one of the most bizarre, anti-competitive sentiments I've ever seen.

I could also point out how self serving it is to want Meta Knight banned for a lot of people. If you don't use Meta Knight (or just think you would do better using someone else), it's probably easy to make the "gamble" that Meta Knight being banned would result in more Meta Knight users picking characters who do worse against your main than do better against your main (he is top tier after all, and brawl's culture doesn't seem to suggest that top tier mains are particularly likely to play lots of top tier characters and no low tier characters). In a way, we could argue that a lot of people are just "playing to win" by trying to manipulate the rules to their favor. The position is popular enough so that you won't look foolish advocating it, and it helps you if it happens. So why not try even if you don't actually think it's warranted? After all, money is on the line.

 

[PhantomX]

I thought it was an awesome post too... you will get bashed by fanboys eventually though.

 

[Collomb]

"worldwide's players became so noobish..."

LOL
worldwide's players became so noobish...

italy's the best ^^

 

[Vilt]

I voted no, but me playing the character isn't my reasoning behind it. The problem I see with MK is the way people abuse the character, the way he is played. I've had some of the people tell me to just mash B but I never do, and honestly my MK isn't too bad. I read back and saw that people were saying that everyone uses him and I think that is depending on where you live. I live in Greensboro, NC and no one but me likes MK here. Even around here in NC not many play MK. We have Bi weeklies tourneys in Chapel Hill and honestly I'm the only MK that I have noticed. I haven't won a single one. Not cause I'm bad, just cause I have been out played by others. Mind gamed by very good people. But the abusive play that has been taught to be a regular style of him has become a nuisance.

But a suggestion to the community if no one has thought of this. I believe that each state should decide on its own if a character should be banned, and if you are an out of state player to respect that decision.
Just a suggestion.

 

[wangston]

M2K in is the god of Brawl. He unlocked Meta potential for everyone to see. I want to see M2K show the world that Captain Falcon is god tier.

 

[Jim Morrison]

lots of text.

lol... tl;dr

 

[salaboB]

LOL
worldwide's players became so noobish...

italy's the best ^^

Hey! Hey! I heard that Italy wanted MK banned!

But then I heard they were just doing a poll asking if people wanted him banned!

Guess what! Smashboards has done a poll asking if people think MK should be banned!

SMASHBOARDS BANNED MK

...noobs?

 

[KevinM]

http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Image:Allcharactermatchupschart.PNG

Excuse me? Fox had counters. Obviously. Even if he didn't, he didn't completely dominate the metagame like Meta-Knight is.
Fox was hard to beat, but not nigh-impossible. Meta-Knight is nigh impossible.
Get your facts right before you post about Melee.

Did you just link to the match-up chart that everyone makes fun of for being highly inaccurate and use it as the thesis of your post.

Your idea was right but I might as well link to a dog taking a ****, Phanna had a great idea but no real experience.

Edit: never mind not even your idea was right, sure he didn't have matches that he didn't have absolute dominance in but he had no solid counter or stage counter for that matter. Sheik vs Bowser is a counter.. Marth vs Fox is even and or slight advantage being stage dependent.

 

[CR4SH]

M2K in is the god of Brawl. He unlocked Meta potential for everyone to see. I want to see M2K show the world that Captain Falcon is god tier.

Ummmm, I'm pretty sure that isn't the case. From what I remember, MK was always ridiculous, except that snake countered him. M2K played DDD, then MK figured out how to get around snake. At around the same point M2K switched over to MK, probably (the way I see it) because he realized that MK is the only way to go if you want to make money. It's not like m2k was the magic "make meta broken" pill.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Ummmm, I'm pretty sure that isn't the case. From what I remember, MK was always ridiculous, except that snake countered him. M2K played DDD, then MK figured out how to get around snake. At around the same point M2K switched over to MK, probably (the way I see it) because he realized that MK is the only way to go if you want to make money. It's not like m2k was the magic "make meta broken" pill.

thats some nutbreaking truth

 

[Ulevo]

Ummmm, I'm pretty sure that isn't the case. From what I remember, MK was always ridiculous, except that snake countered him. M2K played DDD, then MK figured out how to get around snake. At around the same point M2K switched over to MK, probably (the way I see it) because he realized that MK is the only way to go if you want to make money. It's not like m2k was the magic "make meta broken" pill.

Actually, M2K has repeatedly stated he plays Meta Knight because Meta Knight is actually fun to play with, and he gets tired of the old, boring campy style of Dedede, Snake and other characters. It's that simple.

 

[Jim Morrison]

i bet m2k didn't even tried playing anyone other than those past fun-play

 

[Arigatex]

I think is pretty obvious all who wants MK banned don't hate MK per se, but the gay "strategies" such as whorenado spam, personally I've played and lost to some good MK users who actually used their brains, and I have as much respect for them as for every other char user, bottomline: don't hate MK, hate the player!
Unfortunatelly most of them are *******s *sigh* maybe some judge sistem at turneys, to rate the gayness and disqualify if they get too high? lol I'm just throwing random stuff