SoraOwnsAll
Smash Apprentice
Yeah, it's annoying to beat, but a really effective strategy ^_^
QFT 100x over.
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Should Metaknight Be Banned? The Poll (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)
- Thread starter GofG
- Start date
- Status
BlackaDenBlack
Smash Cadet
****. lmfao
SoraOwnsAll
Smash Apprentice
Well, what I meant was that you can gain a huge amount of percent in a small amount of time, just by pressing one button. Sorry that I stated it wrong.
I don't think you understand the situation then.
You seem to think a character being better than everyone else significantly is not a bad thing as long as the character is beatable if you are significantly better.
Don't you see the problem? Look at the highest level of play.
If you and your opponents are the best players in the world...and your opponent picks Metaknight...do you have any choice BUT to pick Metaknight against him? Because you can't bank on being "that much" better than him if he's one of if not the best in the world.
Everyone who makes money at national tournaments has to play MK.
Deoxys
Smash Lord
That's not true because MK has a 45/55 matchup against a Yoshi that bans Rainbow Cruise (instead of Delfino). At least definitely no worse than 50/50.
ZSS goes even with him, as does Snake if it's not the finals (that is, if it's best out of 3 rather than 5, unless it doesn't have so-and-so's stupid rule regarding not letting you pick the same stage again if you already won on it).
Fatmanonice
Banned via Warnings
Shiek can ftilt/utilt lock a lot of characters to 70+% in less than 10 seconds if done right, Fox and Falco can pillar to 100+% in same amount of time in the right hands, and the Ice Climbers have their 0-death chain grabs. Heck, a good Ganondorf can get these percentages even faster if he knows how to "thunder stomp" right and he's considered to be the third worst character overall.
Metaknight overwelms most of the characters simply because of his chasing abilties due to the fact that most of his attacks have very little ending lag and can even be cancelled into other attacks like his dash attack, dtilt, and shuttle loop. His attack speed combined with his ground speed make where he doesn't nessecarily need to built up damage fast because he can just screw around with his opponent while they fly around the stage and try to defend themselves long enough to counter or keep him from getting too close. This is a weird analogy but Metaknight is basically what you get if you mixed Sonic with Mr. Game and Watch and Marth; obnoxiously fast with obnoxiously fast attacks that allow him to chase you around everywhere that have a ton of priority, are disjointed, and some can even "eat" shields. Do I even need to talk about his offstage game and how he can reasonably gimp more than half the cast at percentages as low as 50%?
Turbo Ether
Smash Master
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2006
- Messages
- 3,601
Yeah, and lot's of people will tell you that the matchup is still 60-40 MK's favor. Why listen to you?
Mmac
Smash Lord
Uh... Why would we ban MetaKnight when there is walkoff sections and majority of the stage drop off sections is flat?
Deoxys
Smash Lord
Because those people don't ban Rainbow Cruise. Without RC, they each have equal opportunities to overcome the other on average throughout the match.
Because MK will gain lots of damage on you when you're ascending and can play around your CG when it's one of those parts of the stage. (I'm assuming you mean RC)
I could be wrong though. Maybe MK wins more against Yoshi on Delfino than RC. Either way, ZSS and Snake still go even.
Sesshomuronay
Smash Lord
We still havent discovered all the ways of combatting MK yet so he should remain unbanned so we can further study his playstyle and learn to fight him through experience. Plus apparantly it was recently discovered that you can DI out of his F-air and B-air somehow and punish him but I have no clue how you do it.
ZSS going even with him has not been proven, the only videos I've seen showed a clearly superior ZSS player to the MK player.
Delfino, I think you meant.
Mmac
Smash Lord
Deoxys
Smash Lord
He meant RC, right Mmac?
Mmac
Smash Lord
Name me one Yoshi that has taken out a good (truly good, national-placing) MK in tournament.
One.
It's all on paper. Further, "no worse than 50/50"? There's no way Yoshi has an advantage- it's neutral at BEST, probably 45:55 in MK's favor. Yoshi's only advantage is the CG- MK has so many more options in everything else.
Mmac
Smash Lord
Edit:
Edit again: What Praxis said. Nobody has ever claimed that we had a solid advantage over him... It's Dead Even at the very best.
Turbo Ether
Smash Master
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2006
- Messages
- 3,601
I've seen Pride 3-stock random MKs with Yoshi. Soooooooo satisfying to watch, lol.
I'd vote no on a ban, its just way to early to outright ban a character, I mean the game hasn't even been out a year yet. I agree with the post way back (forgot who) that said wait till march, at least a year ,before deciding this stuff. No sense in rushing into a game changing decision yet, give it a couple months or so.
Fatmanonice
Banned via Warnings
But, you see, that's part of the problem concerning this whole issue, the metagame is heavily focused on beating Metaknight for almost every character. He's that much of a problem for everyone and, the people who support banning him, argue that this has caused the metagame to become stagnant with many characters because more and more Metaknights have been appearing thanks to his extremelly low learning curve and how simple actions on his part can easily thwart the most complex strategies of many characters. Basically, why learn about trying to beat anyone else when many high ranking players are going to take the safe route and simply pick Metaknight to counter everyone else? This makes the situation more one sided because one party (the Metaknight players) barely have to do too much to stay on top while the other party (the 29 out of 39 characters who have 70-30 or worse match ups against him) have to constantly find ways to beat him simply to stay viable.
Add in: Regarding the f-air and b-air part, Overswarm discovered this like back in April and, as you can see, having the info didn't help much. In fact, Metaknight got even better after that point because, back then, Snake was dominating tournaments and everyone was talking about how "broken" he was and now, Metaknight has like 20 -25more tournament wins over Snake. (Since Anokou took down the Rankings Page, I don't know but that was basically the situation when it was still public. Thank God he's bringing it back in November.)
JustKindaBoredUKno
Smash Lord
QFT and sig'ed.
to whoever said it, they put it right. once you get high enough, you HAVE to play meta knight. Luckily in MI we tend to be a little less ***gy about the game. But it comes down to that. No matter how high you go, that MK will still have an advantage over you
It seems the only argument thats actually reasonable is "its too early." To which I would agree, if I knew when it wouldn't be too late. I'm sure plenty of people are going to start quiting over no MK ban. Do we risk losing players who aren't MK, beefing up the MK population, or do we nip it in the bud?
1. He takes away from the Meta Game
2. He discourages using any other character
3. No matter what people may think, the best match up against MK is another MK. End of story.
Psychoace
Smash Champion
Eventually?
Radiation
Smash Apprentice
**** Obama and McCain, this is the new election for me.
Also, we should have an electoral college made up of SBR members.
Just saying.
No, but seriously, a large number of people who voted yes are PROBABLY scrubs. Metaknight is definitely beatable, it's just really hard. Once we start seeing pure Metaknights dominating top three (not just half-metas, jeez) we should definitely do something about it. It's unfair to ban someone BEFORE that happens. It'll be like Christmas, suddenly the metagame will change overnight.
Also, we should have an electoral college made up of SBR members.
Just saying.
No, but seriously, a large number of people who voted yes are PROBABLY scrubs. Metaknight is definitely beatable, it's just really hard. Once we start seeing pure Metaknights dominating top three (not just half-metas, jeez) we should definitely do something about it. It's unfair to ban someone BEFORE that happens. It'll be like Christmas, suddenly the metagame will change overnight.
IKE_Angel
Smash Journeyman
all the people who voted yes can suck my balls MK play just really quick his power isn't much but u guys think he should be banned people who have a hard time with MKs just can't keep up. Marth was broken is melee winning almost all the major tournaments nobody said anything on top of that the best marth lost to a jiggz (pound 3) proving all you really need to do is keep up. sure MK is a hard challenge but i've beaten alot of them with ike luigi ness. People who said yes just can't take a challenge
Im pretty sure this guys joking. Why you all so serious?
EDIT: oops nvm, that was 30 pages ago
dark-war-cloud
Smash Journeyman
huh, right now 322 metaknight mains have voted.
the other 461 mainers are elsewhere.
the other 461 mainers are elsewhere.
GofG
Smash Champion
I hope you don't get to vote in the US General Elections.
Probably SCRUBS? And the many people who are saying NO are definitely not scrubs themselves? There's two sides of that argument, a person who's never actually vsed a Meta Knight at a 'high level' or doesn't pay attention to the information that is portrayed to them.
And waiting for pure Metaknights dominating top three - not just half-metas, is extremely naive. What does half-metas tell you? A person uses their favoured main until the later part in the tournament where they can't compete anymore against a 'better' player or another Metaknight, so they go Meta Knight themselves. What does that tell you? If you don't get it, that means that nearly everyone eventually -needs- Meta to win.
I could use Captain Falcon until I'm within the top 8 and then lose a match and switch to MK and go to win the tournament; but this is AFTER I use my main Captain Falcon in the first match every set (and lose) then switch to MK. When I see a top 8 and it has a player as a 'half meta' I assume they NEEDED Meta. They switched to him because they were under pressure.
indianunit
Smash Journeyman
I vs good metas all the time and they're still beatable.
I say no to drugs..I mean banning meta.
I say no to drugs..I mean banning meta.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
I hate metaknight... but unless he's in the hands of a pro I have more problems with snake 
not that that means anything since the ban is meant to combat professional metaknights... just saying. (I'm pretty sure it's because non pro metaknights don't know how to space correctly.)
not that that means anything since the ban is meant to combat professional metaknights... just saying. (I'm pretty sure it's because non pro metaknights don't know how to space correctly.)
Timbers
check me out
must be some amazing metaknights right thar.
Ulevo
Smash Master
That is a total assumption on your behalf, and nothing more. Just because character(s) used in a tournament listing for a player says "Meta Knight/[insert character here]" doesn't mean they used Meta Knight near the end to simply win, or they had to use him as a crutch. Maybe they used him to deal with a match up there character was extremely unfavorable in, such as Dedede vs Ice Climbers. You don't know. You're just using that argument because it is convenient for your belief that Meta Knight is required in order to win. He isn't. No where even close.
WakerofWinds
Smash Journeyman
Let me take a couple of minutes to address somethings that, well, need to be addressed
First of all, I'm honored by being put into a signature.
Second, this guy has it exactly right. Let's look at it this way. Say we're all farmers, and the characters are crops who need to grow with water and sunshine. In this analogy, they would be competing for water and sunshine. The way things are going, MK is a very strong plant that turns out to be a weed. The weed grows and grows and can't be stopped unless it's killed at the source(the character himself). Otherwise, it'll choke out the other plants(characters) until there's nothing left of them but remnants of the greatness that once was, or may have been. Do you see where this is going? If we keep putting it off, it will end up being too late. (By the way, this is REALLY random, but it came to mind, so I went with it)
Ike Angel: I didn't feel like quoting you. Learn what you're saying before you say it.
LISTEN. All of you people going around with the argument "he's not broken he's not broken, look at x and y and z characters, they weren't banned." You're missing the argument. The point is, even if he isn't NEEDED, he's being used as if he is. Maybe you're not doing it, or your friends aren't doing it, but a large amount of the community IS doing it. The metagame is at a point where it's stalling for most characters. Why do you think the MK mainers have such an easy time coming up with counters to things that other characters can do against them? Because MK is just THAT good. Every little thing that gets found is tosses off as nothing because MK can just walk around it. Not run, not fly, walk. He's too good, he's ruining the metagame and the tournament scene isn't benefiting any from his presence. He's a problem, we need to deal with him, now, before it's too late.
That turned out a lot longer then i thought it would be...
Edit: And ONE more thing... As a community, people are saying "If we ban MK, we can ban everyone!" No That's not how it works. We have to take the initiative, as a community, and ban him ourselves. We have to take the risk. Yes, the door will be opened to talks of banning, but it doesn't mean they'll go through, they probably won't.
Anyone on the "no" side of the argument who uses THIS argument as part of what they're saying doesn't understand anything that's going on. This isn't what we're talking about to a large extent, and shouldn't even come up. For the record, Falco, Sheik, Fox, Marth, they were good, yeah, BUT GUESS WHAT PEOPLE!?!?!? THEY HAD COUNTERS. As a result, this should not come up in your general thinking when we talk about this topic, it isn't a good argument, don't bring it up anymore, please. MK has no TRUE counter but himself. Yoshi's close at best, but nobody has the advantage over MK.
This is, in general, a good idea, yes. However, chances are we'll never make it that far. We've BEEN studying playstyle, we've BEEN trying to fight him, but to no avail, it's a sad truth. I won't bother to quote myself about the community thing, but which would you rather lose? A character or a community?
This.
First of all, I'm honored by being put into a signature.
Second, this guy has it exactly right. Let's look at it this way. Say we're all farmers, and the characters are crops who need to grow with water and sunshine. In this analogy, they would be competing for water and sunshine. The way things are going, MK is a very strong plant that turns out to be a weed. The weed grows and grows and can't be stopped unless it's killed at the source(the character himself). Otherwise, it'll choke out the other plants(characters) until there's nothing left of them but remnants of the greatness that once was, or may have been. Do you see where this is going? If we keep putting it off, it will end up being too late. (By the way, this is REALLY random, but it came to mind, so I went with it)
I doubt that a ton of them are scrubs. Stop using the term around here in this setting, it isn't needed and feels very out of place. MK is beatable, at maybe our level. Go to the top, it's not happening so much. Also, what fun is being a HALF MK. If you have to be MK to get into the top 3, don't you see the problem? You JUST pointed it out. If we wait too long it'll be too late.
Ike Angel: I didn't feel like quoting you. Learn what you're saying before you say it.
Stop bringing in personal stories. I'm just picking on you because you're on this page, but, honestly? Nobody cares. Oh look, I can beat my friend's meta because I'm BETTER THEN HIM. But look, if we're even, he wins every time. I wonder why... You're missing the point of this argument, please try again later.
He is required to win on the very highest level. It's not easy to beat him. In fact it's almost impossible. It's not even close to being easy to beat, or even a really even match up.
LISTEN. All of you people going around with the argument "he's not broken he's not broken, look at x and y and z characters, they weren't banned." You're missing the argument. The point is, even if he isn't NEEDED, he's being used as if he is. Maybe you're not doing it, or your friends aren't doing it, but a large amount of the community IS doing it. The metagame is at a point where it's stalling for most characters. Why do you think the MK mainers have such an easy time coming up with counters to things that other characters can do against them? Because MK is just THAT good. Every little thing that gets found is tosses off as nothing because MK can just walk around it. Not run, not fly, walk. He's too good, he's ruining the metagame and the tournament scene isn't benefiting any from his presence. He's a problem, we need to deal with him, now, before it's too late.
That turned out a lot longer then i thought it would be...
Edit: And ONE more thing... As a community, people are saying "If we ban MK, we can ban everyone!" No That's not how it works. We have to take the initiative, as a community, and ban him ourselves. We have to take the risk. Yes, the door will be opened to talks of banning, but it doesn't mean they'll go through, they probably won't.
Wafles
Smash Lord
I hesitantly voted yes.
It's clear MK has a huge advantage in many areas (mine not being one of them), and that increasingly more people are switching to MK just to get ahead a little bit more. Eventually we are going to see more than 50% MK in tournaments, and that's just no fun IMO.
MK Dittos are miserable, one of the least fun things to watch and play.
It's clear MK has a huge advantage in many areas (mine not being one of them), and that increasingly more people are switching to MK just to get ahead a little bit more. Eventually we are going to see more than 50% MK in tournaments, and that's just no fun IMO.
MK Dittos are miserable, one of the least fun things to watch and play.
CT Chia
Smash Obsessed
I don't want him banned, but I want to stop seeing like 60% of tourney attendees playing him. I don't mind facing em in tourney, but **** it's boring
That won't change unless he's banned.
Jim Morrison
Smash Authority
i saw it, didnt read the post i was just like ****ing hell yes
Ginger_Warrior
Smash Apprentice
I was fairly indecisive, but I voted "no". For two reasons:
1) So much time has been put into advancing MK's metagame that, even if it has made him near unbeatable, it would be a waste and unfair to lose all that work.
2) I don't think MK himself is the problem. I think certain moves are the problem, and to make some sort of balance, I'd probably be up for banning too many Tornadoes.
1) So much time has been put into advancing MK's metagame that, even if it has made him near unbeatable, it would be a waste and unfair to lose all that work.
2) I don't think MK himself is the problem. I think certain moves are the problem, and to make some sort of balance, I'd probably be up for banning too many Tornadoes.
Jim Morrison
Smash Authority
oops double posted
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