Turbo Ether
Smash Master
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2006
- Messages
- 3,601
I'm not that sorry. I just attempted to come off as a 50% d*ck instead of a 100% d*ck.
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Should Metaknight Be Banned? The Poll (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)
- Thread starter GofG
- Start date
- Status
Nobody is seriously suggesting an MK ban because he makes noobs better. The problem is at very high levels of play, MK still has an advantage on every other character.
cutter
Smash Champion
Considering the state of Brawl right now, I don't think we can wait until next summer. By then, the game will have died out majorly and the community will have deteriorated considerably.
Mmac
Smash Lord
If this continues, Brawl won't have a Strong Completive Atmosphere. Brawl might not last this long....
Deoxys
Smash Lord
The thing is, we just can't know if we don't wait... Banning MK now could end up hurting Brawl's future, if it turns out that MK has one or more 55/45 matchups.
Sesshomuronay
Smash Lord
I do not wish to ban him. Yoshi goes even with him from what I hear and its debatable whether zero suit samus does too. Its too early and hes not unbeatable.
There's actually a lot of MK mains that said Yes!
Compared to how much it will be hurt if we don't ban and the current trend continues?
Take the avenue of least risk.
We ban MK and it was warranted: Some angered MK mains leave. Brawl remains competitive, more characters become viable, metagame stagnation is stopped, all is right in the world.
We ban MK and it was not warranted: Some angered MK mains leave. Brawl remains competitive. No added benefits.
We DO NOT ban MK and it was warranted: Brawl dies out as the metagame deteriorates into MK dittos.
We DO NOT ban MK and it was not warranted: Everything remains exactly as it is now. Stagnation may continue, but it wasn't MK's fault.
The "ban MK" route results in some losses, but guarantees Brawl's survival. Not banning him is flipping a coin, with one side of the coin being the end of the competitive community.
Evidence points toward's the ban being warranted at this point- do we really want to risk landing on the wrong side of the coin?
Truth is a constant. Our arguments haven't changed. The MK supporters keep contradicting themselves trying to find a neutral matchup. Is it Bowser? Is it Yoshi? I'm not seeing these characters beating high level Metaknights, yet I hear supporters somehow thinking that these character's chaingrabs on him somehow make them able to take MK down. If it turns out that the pro-ban side was correct...the anti-ban camp's stance will result in the end of the competitive scene.
SoraOwnsAll
Smash Apprentice
IMHO he should be banned right now. If he is banned, it will give the other characters metagames chances to develop, and then we can un-ban MK and see if he is still as broken as he is right now.
WakerofWinds
Smash Journeyman
Deoxys, think about this.
It's better to lose a character then it is to risk the loss of a community.
cutter
Smash Champion
YES! My thoughts exactly. No one wants to see this community erupt into chaos.
SoraOwnsAll
Smash Apprentice
Well said man, well said.
BlackaDenBlack
Smash Cadet
My opinion is that if a character is in a game, he deserves to be played. Banning a character is not only a slap in the face of true SSB gamers, but a slap in the face of Nintendo, and Masahiro Sakurai. You simply can't just ban a character because you think he is unbeatable. What gives people the authority to ban a character that they didn't make, don't own the rights to, and couldn't dream of imagining? Simply get better at the game. Play against some of the best MetaKnight players. That's what gaming is all about. Getting better, and having fun doing it. No one banned Falco...or Sheik, or Fox. Why ban MetaKnight?
SoraOwnsAll
Smash Apprentice
Because they weren't as broken as MK is, they could still be beaten, but MK in the hands of a pro is almost impossible to beat.
Try reading the thread.
Do you think Akuma should be unbanned in Street Fighter?
You practically said it on your own there. No one banned Falco, or Sheik, or Fox. Why? They were equals. They had equals.
MK is alone and completely dominant. Appealing to emotion is nothing- characters don't have a "right" to be played if they unbalance the game. Do stages have a right to be played? Do items?
SoraOwnsAll
Smash Apprentice
For fun some stages have a right to be played, and items have a right to be played. But for serious competition, no some stages, and all items, do not. They just affect the outcome too much and make it luck based. And I agree with what you are saying...if something is too broken and completely destroys the metagame, does it have a right to be used?
BlackaDenBlack
Smash Cadet
I didn't know "unbeatable" was in a gamer's vocab. Maybe it's because I haven't been to many tournaments. I've lost matches against good gamers, so what? No sole character should be banned simply because he is "unbeatable". This will pave the way for all sorts of characters from all sorts of games being banned for the same or similar reasons. No one has the right to ban anything. No one has the right to do so except for Nintendo.
If it's YOUR tournament, and it's how YOU play, then fine. I can't tell you what to do. But I'm against it 100% as a fan of Nintendo since 3 years young.
Fatmanonice
Banned via Warnings
Zero Suit Samus? What on Earth? Last time I checked, the matchup was 80-20 in Metaknight's favor...From what I've experienced, ZSS's is pretty much screwed if he gets in close or gets her in the air and don't even get me started on what his edgeguarding skills do to her. Ike is almost the same way but at least he can reasonably kill MK at 70-80% on medium stages. This match up is supposedly 70-30 and ZSS has an even harder time killing so there's absolutely no way the match up could be even unless I'm missing out of something big.
Overswarm
is laughing at you
- Joined
- May 4, 2005
- Messages
- 21,181
A ZSS beat a MK once and even went ape. Just another Diddy, DK, Snake, Marth, G&W, Yoshi, etc., etc.... except Yoshi never actually even beat an MK.
SoraOwnsAll
Smash Apprentice
I never said unbeatable, now did I? I said he is ALMOST impossible to beat, not unbeatable. There is still a slight chance of victory against him, but chances are its not gonna happen. Not many characters can be banned from other games either, because most other games have some sort of sense of balance, but Brawl doesn't with how far MK is above the rest of the characters. That's like saying lets ban DIO in JUS because he's the top of the top tier. But in actuality he can easily be beaten by some good in middle, hell even bottom tier.
BlackaDenBlack
Smash Cadet
Don't know any thing about SF. Never got into Street Fighter. All the games are basically the same to me lol.
But anyways, a character is entirely different from stages or items. It's a person you can assume in the game. You can't become an item or a stage. You can ban stages, and items. But you can't ban characters...it's just not right, well to me at least. What unbalancing a game over the best man winning...even if it is someone handling MK? As a gamer, I wouldn't be satisfied just accepting that a certain character is unstoppable.
Someone has said my name.
The metagame is basically turning into anti-MK ATs vs MK's ATs vs everybody else. MK is winning. Handily. No Smash character has ever been this far ahead of the rest of the cast. Fox would be proud.
At this point there is nothing I can say that hasn't already been said before a thousand times. So if we don't take action now, he will just pull further ahead. He is showing no signs of stopping now, as his metagame will improve vastly; much more so than the rest of the characters. He just can't be stopped. Discussing the topic further is a massive waste of time, do something now or shut up. If the SBR wants to sit there and watch Metaknight ruin the game then fine. If they finally decide to take a stand for the good of the game and the community, wonderful. As far as I'm concerned there is nothing more to discuss. They've heard the argument from both sides on all angles. Let's see what they do (or don't do...).
At this point there is nothing I can say that hasn't already been said before a thousand times. So if we don't take action now, he will just pull further ahead. He is showing no signs of stopping now, as his metagame will improve vastly; much more so than the rest of the characters. He just can't be stopped. Discussing the topic further is a massive waste of time, do something now or shut up. If the SBR wants to sit there and watch Metaknight ruin the game then fine. If they finally decide to take a stand for the good of the game and the community, wonderful. As far as I'm concerned there is nothing more to discuss. They've heard the argument from both sides on all angles. Let's see what they do (or don't do...).
Fatmanonice
Banned via Warnings
Oh... it's one of THOSE cases...
Let's see now: first Wolf was said to be a Metaknight counter because his lazer stops the tornado and then people realized this was utter crap, then it was Ike, then it was Lucario, then it was Donkey Kong, then it was Yoshi, then it was Diddy Kong, and Snake being a Metaknight counter was debunked about two months ago... I hate how people overreact like that. -_-; Did you know there's a thread in the Jigglypuff board that claims that Jigglypuff is a Metaknight counter simply because of her dair to rest combo? Geez...Add in:
Oh yeah, I also remember when Bowser and Shiek were called Metaknight counters...
BlackaDenBlack
Smash Cadet
Almost impossible to beat...okay, my fault. But I just don't know...even if he is a great as you say he is, it's still not an excuse to just write him off. To me, he's a challenge in the game. You have to meet the challenge. But maybe you know more about this than me. I don't know. I just don't think that banning a character can help.
SoraOwnsAll
Smash Apprentice
Meet the challenge of something that is nigh impossible to beat? Hell, people are just switching to him so they can win, thus ruining other characters metagames. If he is banned, people can't switch to him, so they will main someone else and develop there metagame thus the game progresses more then it is right now, with MK's running rampant in every tournament.
Here's the logic behind switching to him :
1. Try to develop a strategy that may not work and may cost you the chance at winning a tourney worth upwards of $5000.
2. Switch to Metaknight and win an easy $5000.
See the trend that will happen/is already happening?
BlackaDenBlack
Smash Cadet
I guess I can see where you are coming from in a tournament standpoint...but shouldn't there has to be another way besides simply banning a character? I mean, maybe it's because I haven't played a good MK player. If I'm in a tournament, even if I don't win or if I do, I just want to know that I won with all characters available. A ban just sounds so weak...maybe a limit on how many can use him, first come, first serve...not a ban. He just shouldn't be banned completely.
SoraOwnsAll
Smash Apprentice
I can see where you are coming from, but in a tournament it just doesn't work. And to top it all of, some guy placed 2nd in a tournament just by using MK's B move over and over again. That's another reason he has be banned, you can win just by pressing one button. Right now a ban is the way to get around him. After a month or 2, the ban might be lifted, since other players metagames will have evolved more (more tactics found etc) instead of just using MK over and over causing other peoples metagames to suffer.
Mmac
Smash Lord
Silly emotions and ideals should not influence actions against characters that break the game.
BlackaDenBlack
Smash Cadet
Not like I know what a metagame is lol...but it deserves to evolve if it helps him not to be banned. Maybe people can't stand him winning because his fanfare is so bad *** lol. But seriously, I still don't agree he should be banned, but I can deal with a temporary one if he is so dominant in tournament play. I wouldn't know though, I'm not one of these seasoned vets.
BlackaDenBlack
Smash Cadet
Yeah...but I was talking about tournaments...lls. And I think you're right about emotions, but really, would you honestly be happy with yourself at one of these tournaments if you placed, but only because someone could not use MK? That why think there should be a limit, or I argee with Sora in that it should be temporary. Until metagames can evolve for tournament play...whatever a metagame is lol
SoraOwnsAll
Smash Apprentice
A metagame is basically how well a certain character can be played, to a certain extent. If he/she is used more, their metagame evolves, which means people will become better with that certain person overall, and will have new tactics to use with him/her. If you don't play in tournament play, you can still use him, just don't main him or else you will be disappointed when you go to a tournament. I still use MK sometimes in casual play, but if I'm being serious, I always switch to my main Diddy
Sure, because they'd have applied all their skill to whatever character they faced me with, and I'd have won against them.
As things stand now anyway, chances are that if MK had been allowed we both would have been MK so we both would be playing "unpreferred" characters.
BlackaDenBlack
Smash Cadet
Diddy...I hate when people use those **** bananas and that running attack...that strategy pisses me off because I have to work hard to win lol.A metagame is basically how well a certain character can be played, to a certain extent. If he/she is used more, their metagame evolves, which means people will become better with that certain person overall, and will have new tactics to use with him/her. If you don't play in tournament play, you can still use him, just don't main him or else you will be disappointed when you go to a tournament. I still use MK sometimes in casual play, but if I'm being serious, I always switch to my main Diddy
Yes. Yes I would.
BlackaDenBlack
Smash Cadet
He's not really one of my favorite players to play as but I guess I could learn for some extra gwap lol j/k
Fatmanonice
Banned via Warnings
This is a gross hyperbole. It's freakishly unlikely that a Metaknight could win a match simply by using the Mach Tornado especially when your opponent has to be 200+% for even the lightest characters like Mr. Game and Watch and Jigglypuff to get KO'd off the top. Also, I think most tournaments would label this as stalling since it would easily take more than 8 minutes to deplete 3 stock especially if they were playing against people who can easily stop the tornado like Yoshi, Falco, Wolf, and the Ice Climbers. Really, in order to be defeated simply by the tornado, you have to suck horribly at Brawl or be comatose.
Personally, I think Metaknight's attack speed, mixed with the fact that most of his attack have virtually no ending/landing lag and are disjointed make him a much bigger problem then the tornado. That's like saying Snake is hard to beat with many characters simply because of his ftilt when there's definately more to the story.
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