Fair enough. My point still holds value however, as Fox having any unfavourable match ups at all is debatable at best, and excepted by a majority as simply not the case.
True
I pointed that out simply to remove a point of contention because I could tell that you guys were arguing based on two seperate meanings of the term, which cause the discussion to spiral downward.
I understood his point perfectly, but the bottom line is that placing the responsibility of guilty or innocent of a character on a single player will prove next to nothing at all. Especially with M2K. He has the ability to win tournaments with almost any High Tier character I would assume, based on his skill level alone. One might argue that that would prove Meta Knight isn't broken if players started winning with other characters like that. But all I think it would prove is how good M2K is. The entire idea is totally silly. I don't see too many people running around saying how Meta Knight isn't broken because Azen wins with Lucario. (And no, for anyone who wants to state this, just because Azen plays Meta Knight does not mean he relies on him, nor that he does better with him than Lucario.)
Well, again, I think it's more of a communication issue.
They don't just mean M2K, they mean MKs in general.
The more MK players showing that they can win with other characters, the better the chance MK will not be banned.
M2K is just an easy example.
I have previously said that he is not the best debater. Rather, he's pretty bad at portraying anything correctly. Half the time he rambles on about irrelevant things. I especially do not take everything he says completely seriously. I just believe that there is still truth to what it is he states, regardless of his motives, and people just tend to completely ignore that because he plays Meta Knight. That is stupid, even if I agree for the fact that him playing the suspect isn't the most convincing thing to swallow.
Please understand, I'm not questioning his motivations, just noting unconscious biases.
Realistically though, I think people are taking the Overswarm route, ignoring him because of his argument style, and the fact that he plays MK is just them being lazy and not wanting to dissect his argument (which admittedly, something I can't blame them for).
I would prefer people be intellectually honest and explain that it's because of his debating style, but there it is.
Speaking personally, I agree with you on M2K, to a degree. His opinion should be considered simply because he has the expirience to be an authority, regardless of other factors. But because he cannot properly support his point we CANNOT simply accept that he is correct and move on. It's a minor point against the ban that can be overcome
if and only if enough evidence surfaces in favor of a ban.
This has not happened yet, if only because the community is simply too young to be sure about this. By all indications he SEEMS bannable, but the smoking gun that proves this has not ermerged. So I suggest waiting for a little while longer. But the best option for dealing with this is, in my opinion, ALL BOARDS MUST DISCUSS THE MK MATCH-UP now. With as many people as possible participating in the discussion, high-leveled players in general, MK mains. We need the REAL match-up numbers for every single match-up, not close aproximations.
From there, we can figure out whether he is bannable, and from there, decide how long is reasonable to wait for counters to be discovered.
For the record, it's nice to respond to someone who actually discusses intelligently.
Thanks :blush:
MK is small, flies far, has the standard breakouts, and is in general one of the hardest characters to chaingrab against. You have nothing whatsoever to base a hope for finding a chaingrab that only works against MK ever existing. The same applies for combos that can't be escaped from -- anything that will work on MK is going to work on other characters, and likely will be extremely successful against many of them due to how hard it is to catch MK in anything because of his attributes (Small and floaty with no abnormal penalties).
A chaingrab was just an example.
But it's possible that those attributes will actually make a particular chaingrab possible.
Find me anything inescapable or significantly effective that works against MK but nobody else. Anything.
Shifting the burden of proof much?
Lack of proof of existance of something doesn't prove it doesn't exist, it merely proves that there is a lack of proof of existance of something.
If you wanna prove that nothing can work on MK and just MK then you have to find a general principal that's proven and disproves it (good luck with that), otherwise it's not disproven.
Existantial statements can be proven by inductive evidence, and lack of existance can be disproven in that manner. But lack of existance can only be proven by deduction, induction is useless in that regard.
So it doesn't matter
if nothing has been found that works on only MK... we cannot assume this will always be the case.
If it works against others, people will find it against others and can then take it into testing against MK (And that doesn't require top level players to find out if it works or not, "good" players are plenty capable of testing such a thing extensively). To say it won't be found because something can be located that works only against MK is something you must prove can even happen.
At which point it has to be "good enough" independantly of any other tech, otherwise it won't click.
Regardless, the people who would be testing things like this would not be good enough to be taken seriously. Plenty of information gets buried because people don't realize it's important and it doesn't catch the community's eye.
