Should Metaknight be Banned? ***Take 3***

[FB Dj_Iskascribble]

go back and read the earlier pages where it was explained 17000 times and STOP ASKING THE SAME QUESTIONS OVER AND OVER PEOPLE

 

[AvaricePanda]

How does he?

I've already argued multiple times that while he doesn't have bad stages, neither do Wario or Diddy, and Snake's only notably bad stage (RC) can just be banned.

And he has plenty of match-ups that are close enough to being even to the point where the better skilled player will win. Slightly in one character's advantage (55-45 to people who want to see numbers, although those numbers are really subjective and shouldn't have so much weight put on them) doesn't mean that it's impossible to win. Match-ups like that are hugely determined by player skill.

 

[Shaya]

Also Shaya, I haven't seen that Anti-ban argument at all. The main thing I have seen from the Anti-ban argument is that MK just flat out isn't banworthy and doesn't destroy the CP system.

I'm not really sure where you got that statement.

M2K, Atomsk and Inui at the least have brought it up.
People have thrown at many statements about one character then becoming the dominate one... etc etc

And I've read a lot of this topic, you, or others going "MK just isn't worthy of a ban" doesn't excite me any more, nor can it ultimately be argued as true or false. Whilst the anti-ban argument I reiterated is of much more importance to me, someone who wants to have a BETTER COMPETITIVE GAME [inb4 brawl+] out of smash characters.

I don't really care about any of the other arguments now, because they're all bias.
However "MK ban = better competitive game (due to the triangle situation) or worse (gayness)" is a hypothesis that is testable. HMMM TASTY. IT IS TESTABLE.

 

[Masmasher@]

National tournament results matter most. But you can't just look at a tournament and say, "Tournament, here are the results, wooo,". There ARE other factors to be considered.

When someone brings in a tournament where MK takes the top ten spots (which hasn't happened except for ChuDats biweekly, and they all went MK for the lulz anyway), then yes, it's important, but when there weren't many of other characters there or many other good people there, then it's to be expected that the MKs take the top ten spots.

When someone brings in WHOBO for the millionth time, we say, "It's not that great of results," because the top like 4 out of 5 MKs in the nation were there without good representation of the tops of other characters. Where were the top Snakes, Warios, Diddys, Pikachus, D3s, Falcos? They weren't there. Ally, Anther, Fiction, ADHD, Ninjalink, Atomsk, among other notably good mains of those characters, weren't at this tournament, while M2K, Dojo, DSF, and Tyrant were.

Also, MK was placed next to people's names when they only used it for a couple of games or for one match-up. Lee predominately used Lucario in singles and only used MK for like one match, if I'm not mistaken, but people count that as, "MK taking the top four spots," and they completely disregard the fact he mained Lucario throughout most of the tournament.

Also Shaya, I haven't seen that Anti-ban argument at all. The main thing I have seen from the Anti-ban argument is that MK just flat out isn't banworthy and doesn't destroy the CP system.

I'm not really sure where you got that statement.

I can understand that but at the same time it was their personal decision not to come to this tournament thats not a good enough excuse to completely discredit the results. Its through evidence.
Though lee might have used MK once he used it when it counted greatly. Theres been a trend of that. in the very first thread of "should metaknight be banned" we had a situation in a national tournament where azen used metaknight on lee to defeat him and place second to m2k. this has happened in smaller tournaments around my area. It doesnt matter the quantiy of him using the character the fact is that he used it to win in the clinch.

 

[AvaricePanda]

I've seen people argue that there'd be another character then dominating (Snake) although I haven't seen people say anything about MK stopping characters with "gay" strategies.

Then again, there are 200 pages...

 

[Masmasher@]

Though I cant predict the future can anyone really how much more dominance MK needs at tournaments before we all facepalm. Also I know that not everyone on the anti ban side plays metaknight but tell me would the scene be WORSE without him. is he expendable?

Goes back to playing melee

 

[AvaricePanda]

I can understand that but at the same time it was their personal decision not to come to this tournament thats not a good enough excuse to completely discredit the results. Its through evidence.
Though lee might have used MK once he used it when it counted greatly. Theres been a trend of that. in the very first thread of "should metaknight be banned" we had a situation in a national tournament where azen used metaknight on lee to defeat him and place second to m2k. this has happened in smaller tournaments around my area. It doesnt matter the quantiy of him using the character the fact is that he used it to win in the clinch.

Actually, it is. If I pulled out only MK and Mario mains, put them in a tourney, and said, "Look, MK got all the top spots, ban him!" it's obviously stupid because MK has a good match-up against Mario and there's nobody to challenge MK.

Their personal decision not to come? Lolwut. There were other tournaments going on when WHOBO went on, and some people just didn't want to go or just couldn't come. But at any rate, I don't see how it pertains to the results being skewed (which they are).

We have to think at a national level when deciding if MK dominates tournaments. If the three best MKs in the NATION go to one tournament when none of the top of any other characters comes to the tournament, you have to realize that yes, the results are skewed. I don't understand how you think it's thorough evidence. The results would have been different had the people I'd name showed up, but they didn't.

WHOBO wasn't a national tournament anyway, at least not attendance-wise. There were I think 140 attendants, or something like that (it was in the hundreds). This doesn't compare to CoT4 and won't compare to Genesis, and as stated multiple times by myself and in this thread, top pros from other regions and top pros of other characters did not show up here. The results are skew.

Also, yes, Lee used MK "when it counted." But what if his secondary was Marth? Would you care as much then if his secondary was someone who had the same match-up against whoever he used his MK against? No. Nobody cares whenever someone pro uses a secondary to get past a tough opponent...unless it's MK, then it's apparently all MKs fault (even though when you're talking about one or two match-ups, there are often other characters who have just as good if not better match-ups against said characters).

Edit: That's already been proven to be a bad argument. Would the scene be any worse with D3s running chain grabs? They're annoying and cheap and lead into an edgeguard that often leads to a kill. Nobody likes them and the metagame loses nothing from banning them, right?

You don't ban something because the metagame can't be worse without them. If something isn't banworthy in the first place, you don't ban it. Would the scene be worse without Snake, or Samus, or really any character?

 

[CR4SH]

\ Oh yeah, and no matter what character you play (unless it's MK) and what stage you're on, an equally skilled Marth will beat you?!

Marth has bad stages and multiple even matchups.

There's a reason why Ally stays Snake
No he doesn't. Last big tourny I went to I saw him play MK for the majority of doubles, and marth for quite a bit of singles. Get informed bro.

Otherwise I'm not seeing anything else from you worth much of a response.

Edit: one more thing worth noting, you and basically everyone else tends to ignore the implied "If player skill is equal" in matchup numbers. MK is better than everyone in every matchup, plus you can't stage CP him. That's pretty ridiculous.

 

[thrillagorilla]

This thread has made me laugh, cry, and wish to bash people in the head with a bat so their brain cell count better reflects the posts they make. And yet, it's sadly been very entertaining.

@ Avarice: I still agree with what you are saying about multiple characters causing problems for the stage cp system. IDK about Diddy, but you're the Diddy main, not me. I'll take your word for it. It'd be nice to hear it from other people as well, though. Oh, and you can't make the claim that the HOBO results would be different if "x" player was there. They weren't, so its pointless to make a statement you can't prove. This fact is one of the reasons Genesis intrigues me.

As for Taking apart the HOBO results, it works on the small scale, but not the large. MK is still taking a vast majority of top spots in tourneys nation-wide, as is reflected in the tournament results thread. I can understand Masmasher@'s frustration with the anti-ban's "having it both ways." I even agree. Anther hasn't won every tourney he has gone to. Not even M2K can make that claim. So the results on the whole need to be looked at, not just on an individual basis. Trying to look at things on an individual basis is like trying to disprove the Theory of Relativity by using Quantum Physics theory. They don't match and shouldn't be used to counter each other when both have been proven to be true. I do think that the percentage of use of a character should be taken into consideration when posting tourney results, though. If the results are getting skewed, fix them.

 

[Sieguest]

I've read, and reread, and reread once again the posts in this argument, and I don't see it going anywhere anymore... All the pro ban people keeping on bringing up the tournament results and anti ban people keep talking about it not being right to ban MK and how a ban would screw things

There's a point to both sides, but that's it... either way you go there are advantages and disadvantages to any decision: that is life.

Ban MK= more "competition" but Mk mains and maybe others will get cheesed and leave

Don't Ban MK= pro Mk ban people leave, but you still keep the character.

Either way someone is going to get their feelings hurt...

 

[gocubs44123]

I don't think you can ban metaknight because then if you take metaknight then a new character may rise to "metaknight" status. Metaknight is by no means broken, it takes skill to be good with him, and even though hes better than most characters you have to keep him in the game for the sake of the game. That's just my opinion. The developers put him in the game for a reason.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Actually, it is. If I pulled out only MK and Mario mains, put them in a tourney, and said, "Look, MK got all the top spots, ban him!" it's obviously stupid because MK has a good match-up against Mario and there's nobody to challenge MK.

Their personal decision not to come? Lolwut. There were other tournaments going on when WHOBO went on, and some people just didn't want to go or just couldn't come. But at any rate, I don't see how it pertains to the results being skewed (which they are).

We have to think at a national level when deciding if MK dominates tournaments. If the three best MKs in the NATION go to one tournament when none of the top of any other characters comes to the tournament, you have to realize that yes, the results are skewed. I don't understand how you think it's thorough evidence. The results would have been different had the people I'd name showed up, but they didn't.

WHOBO wasn't a national tournament anyway, at least not attendance-wise. There were I think 140 attendants, or something like that (it was in the hundreds). This doesn't compare to CoT4 and won't compare to Genesis, and as stated multiple times by myself and in this thread, top pros from other regions and top pros of other characters did not show up here. The results are skew.

Also, yes, Lee used MK "when it counted." But what if his secondary was Marth? Would you care as much then if his secondary was someone who had the same match-up against whoever he used his MK against? No. Nobody cares whenever someone pro uses a secondary to get past a tough opponent...unless it's MK, then it's apparently all MKs fault (even though when you're talking about one or two match-ups, there are often other characters who have just as good if not better match-ups against said characters).

It's not the same thing, lee didn't use MK on a low tier that his original character had an advantage against he used it on a character that countered his main because he didn't have enough confidence that he would win. And of course no one would have cared if he used marth and that would have actually shown that mk isn't as ban worthy but he didn't go marth did he?

The other tournaments are the reason the results aren't skewed. Unless the people you mentioned didn't place anywhere at all that weekend then they still had an effect. If it is not as big as whobo's then thats just to bad whobo had more people and a higher level of competition.

Whobo's top 5 also reflects what COT4 had lee dojo and m2k are on there and in fact COT4 could be considered skewed as well because Tyrant and DSF wheren't there which could have changed the results and is very likely since DSF has beaten two of the non MK names on the COT4 top 5.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I think the new perspective that arturito's sig brings to the table is just as important as the view his post brings up

 

[Red Arremer]

To put that set in perspective for you:

He's a Sonic player, a character I rarely play against, who knows the Metaknight matchup extremely well.

Do you think I'd lose again?

Besides, he's the one sonic that's beaten me out of the, oh, dozen or so I've played in person and on wifi since the game's release.... without practicing the matchup. If you say "well, this is the BEST sonic, so he shows what's up!", then I'll just have him MM Mew2King and see how it goes.

One match never changes anything, or shouldn't.

We took you as an example not to mock your to put you down, Overswarm. Sorry if you felt insulted by this.

However, it's proof that a good Meta Knight player can be defeated by another character, and Sonic is even Low Tier, so obviously it's not "I pick Meta Knight and win all matches, ****** everybody.".

 

[Sieguest]

Hmmm, on second thought I'm still anti ban, MK is a character, and characters take work to develop. I wouldn't advocate banning MK because that would make all the MK mains feel like all their time was just flushed down the toilet. (See what I mean by repeated arguments, even I repeat them...

 

[-Ran]

So Louisiana had a small [one week notice tournament] today. 24 entries, Mk was banned.

1 Lee Martin (Lucario/ ZSS)
2 Cyphus (DK)
3 Hyro (TL)
4 Sudai (ROB)
5 Nick (D3/Olimar)/ Randall (G&W)
7 Roni (Falco)/ Seiya (Pit/Diddy)
9 Pierre (Lucas)/Ran (Snake)/John Wu (Lucario)/?

Everyone had a ton of fun. ;v

 

[ShadowLink84]

We took you as an example not to mock your to put you down, Overswarm. Sorry if you felt insulted by this.

However, it's proof that a good Meta Knight player can be defeated by another character, and Sonic is even Low Tier, so obviously it's not "I pick Meta Knight and win all matches, ****** everybody.".

Terrible argument in two ways.

1. Low tier character is not automatically screwed when facing top tier character. That is purely matchup based and for Sonic, MK is a winnable matchup.

2. The sonic player was better, had more experience, Overswarm got surprised etc etc.

 

[MorphedChaos]

I think the new perspective that arturito's sig brings to the table is just as important as the view his post brings up

Agreeing with Kid on this one, that makes lots of sense come to think of it. Smash isn't competitive. (Brawl+ is, and my god is it GODLY! Every character is just about equal!) Sakurai made smash to NOT be competitive, with all the stuff that made Melee competitive removes from Brawl, who knows? Maybe he made MK to just spite the competitive community? Do you know?

As for the CP system, I use it quite often as Wario, its fun to bring a D3 to Norfair, or bring anything thats not DK or MK to Brinstar, bringing DK to RC and MK to Halberd. MK does break this however, he doesn't have a bad stage. (Halberd is not too good for him vs Wario due to the low ceiling, but then he can abuse the stage more then I can. MK is good at any stage, its just that he isn't as good at Halberd as say, FD vs Wario.)

And just to say, I am not making a real point much since its all been said, just making you all think instead.

 

[BentoBox]

No wai man, Brawl+ brought back Melee Sheik. Her tilt combos are freaking insane XD

 

[Kewkky]

Whoever decides to choose MK as a secondary to counter their main's bad matchups shouldn't be considered in this argument, because they could've easily chose some other character to take care of his/her bad matchups. The fact that they used MK is just personal preference between the rest of the characters, not just "using him because they don't trust in their own skill". Here in PR, only a handful of people choose MK when they lose (and there is only one MK mainer), and lots of good that's doing them, seeing as they sometimes don't even hit top 5! So much for matchup dominance and broken CP systems, huh?

I don't believe that driving the game into a rock-paper-scissors style of gaming is the way to go. All top tiers have a disadvantage somewhere within the same top tier, and if it's disadvantageous matchups, it will take an even greater skill level to beat their opponents that what it would take to beat MK with his even/slight advantageous matchups... Banning MK will, in addition to everything that has been said, make the game "whoever wins the first round, wins the whole set", and I can see lots of lower-tier mainers abandoning all hope and moving to top tier characters themselves.

MK has neutral/slight advantageous matchups. Why can't people use those to counter MKs? Another reason MKs hit top placings in tourneys is because the other players are stubborn and stick to their mains, even though there are better choices against MKs than their mains. Same thing would go against:

DDDs: chaingrabbable characters lose to them because their mainers are too hardheaded to change their characters, and they believe they might end up victorious, even though the possibility is close to zero...

Snakes: No matter what character you use, he will destroy you. Might as well outcamp snake from afar with a better choice of character if you face one you feel he will take you out, don't you think? Yet people still believe they can turn the tables with their mains, and find out they were wrong once Snake emerges the victor.

Falcos: They have amazing projectiles and a chaingrab to boot, plus decent KOing options. Why not use a character that can evade/get out early from the chaingrab, and handle his own against campers? I use Kirby for this matchup and I fare well against them, whereas my main is ZSS and doesn't do as well...

I choose the SMARTEST choice and switch to a SECONDARY CHARACTER that I learned to use SO HE COULD WIN MY MATCHES WHERE MY MAIN WOULD LOSE, RATHER THAN RISK THE WHOLE SET BY TELLING MYSELF I CAN DO IT, WHEN I CAN'T. So, why is it so hard for other people to learn how to use different characters for MK matchups? Wario, Diddy, Kirby, even DDDs are good against MKs compared to the rest of the cast! The fact that other people prefer going dittos against MK mainers is their own discretion and preference, not everyone wants to go ditto.

The game is play to win: either you win some money, or you lose some money. MK secondaries don't want to lose money... But they're also NOT pro-ban, which we can see by their character choices. If they were pro-ban, they'd be choosing an even harder counter for their bad matchups, so thank Sakurai for creating MK, which isn't a bad counter a G&W mainer could have against Snakes, rathern than using DDDs to counter them.


MK may have no disadvantageous stages or matchups, but that is where your skill will determine the victor.If you keep losing after months/years of training, then you're doing something wrong, and it's not the characters, it's your STRATEGY. Lack of experience or no, an MK lost to a Sonic. That goes to show you that, even the lowest tier'd characters can handle their own against MK if the knowledge is in the right hands, and used properly. So, start learning, and stop choosing the easy way out with more consecuences than benefits: banning MK.

 

[Masmasher@]

Actually, it is. If I pulled out only MK and Mario mains, put them in a tourney, and said, "Look, MK got all the top spots, ban him!" it's obviously stupid because MK has a good match-up against Mario and there's nobody to challenge MK.

Their personal decision not to come? Lolwut. There were other tournaments going on when WHOBO went on, and some people just didn't want to go or just couldn't come. But at any rate, I don't see how it pertains to the results being skewed (which they are).

We have to think at a national level when deciding if MK dominates tournaments. If the three best MKs in the NATION go to one tournament when none of the top of any other characters comes to the tournament, you have to realize that yes, the results are skewed. I don't understand how you think it's thorough evidence. The results would have been different had the people I'd name showed up, but they didn't.

WHOBO wasn't a national tournament anyway, at least not attendance-wise. There were I think 140 attendants, or something like that (it was in the hundreds). This doesn't compare to CoT4 and won't compare to Genesis, and as stated multiple times by myself and in this thread, top pros from other regions and top pros of other characters did not show up here. The results are skew.

Also, yes, Lee used MK "when it counted." But what if his secondary was Marth? Would you care as much then if his secondary was someone who had the same match-up against whoever he used his MK against? No. Nobody cares whenever someone pro uses a secondary to get past a tough opponent...unless it's MK, then it's apparently all MKs fault (even though when you're talking about one or two match-ups, there are often other characters who have just as good if not better match-ups against said characters).

Edit: That's already been proven to be a bad argument. Would the scene be any worse with D3s running chain grabs? They're annoying and cheap and lead into an edgeguard that often leads to a kill. Nobody likes them and the metagame loses nothing from banning them, right?

You don't ban something because the metagame can't be worse without them. If something isn't banworthy in the first place, you don't ban it. Would the scene be worse without Snake, or Samus, or really any character?

You said your self in the example you just mentioned you would assume MK to win. A perfect example too cause it doesnt put player skill into the equation and you said they would take ALL the top spots.

Exactly it was their personal decision. Dont john for them to come or not come. I didnt say the results were skewed. I think they are legit. You say they are cause apperently these people didnt come. So by your reasoning they are the reasons why the results are the way they are.


So how many times has a national tournament happened when MK has dominated exactly? whats the criteria for a national tourney. Why cant it be regional results that matter too? whats the criteria for domination.

You asked if I would have cared as much if lee had used marth. Why does that matter? if he had used him to win in the clinch then so be it. BUT he didnt..... he used MK. Since he did with the current happenings/trends and MK centralization then it matters to a degree a small but very legitimate degree.


lol
chaingrabs= annoying i know that wasnt much of a argument my analyzed fighter mindset kicking in. I'm not that well versed in brawl but thats another tangent id rather not get into.

 

[Red Arremer]

1. Low tier character is not automatically screwed when facing top tier character. That is purely matchup based and for Sonic, MK is a winnable matchup.

lol. So, for Sonic MK is winnable and that's okay and acceptable, but when it's winnable for all of High and Top Tier except for Marth Meta Knight is so broken and nobody can defeat him?

2. The sonic player was better, had more experience, Overswarm got surprised etc etc.

No Johns. You say Top MKs cannot be defeated. Obviously they can.

 

[Kewkky]

No Johns. You say Top MKs cannot be defeated. Obviously they can.

Victorious comeback! I couldnt've said it better! Why excuse an MK mainer's loss, when we're trying to argue over how MK wins all the time, or how MK is winnable? Johning for someone else, especially an MK main in this argument, will only make you seem like you have no idea what you're saying.

 

[PK-ow!]

I have a rather serious post here; this line is to make it more readable.

There is a problem with stating one needs to say "the best people of other characters show up" to some tourney. For one, the marginalization of said characters, causing underrepresentation, causing sparser representation, causing more chance-prone difficulties* in congregation, can cause the lack of aforementioned turnout. This is a confound for what you hope to conclude, since it entangles dependent and independent variables.

Two, there's the issue of, some character boards just don't have anyone good.
It is said that MK's meta game hurries along toward infinity, as so many, and such amazing, players use him, including the never-less-relevant-than-a-force-of-nature-all-its-own player, Mew2King. Other characters are just being dwarfed. Here's the crucial point I need to get across: If you let the nonproduction of significant new development (+ notable tournament application thereof) from other characters, count in this situation (of exponentially-developing MK strategery), for "well we haven't seen the best of X character, here at set of Y high-profile tournaments, so 'it's to be expected', that the MKs dominate the placing spots", then you're *never* going to be able to say Meta Knight ought to be banned.

You'd have a requirement on what needs to be established which, in the fact of that skepticized claim being right (if it is), can never be observed.

Put another way, you'd have a requirement on what needs to be established that, through the fact of the defended position being wrong, causally closes the world from ever manifesting it.

It would, in effect, be a question-begging defense.

In so doing, you'd be casting your gaze over the very offending thing: That MK just grows without end. We know that: we never know if our meta game knowledge is complete, or how 'close' it is to the "true game". In that sense, every ban decision that ever would be warranted, would be on incomplete information. A character could be banned and then, just as a divine joke, something could be found and published the next Thursday to change the game in one shot, reordering the tiers, and making that brokenness you established mundane in comparison. You *don't know*.
But what you do know is when your Z character's domination is (i) domination, (ii) [that it's] gone on for yea so long, and (iii) you only project it to be such as bad in all foreseeable consequence.

And on that, you decide to ban.

So I really want to believe, that those who are considering this matter gravely with all their expertise, remember that if it comes to MK becoming a phenomenon unto itself - all other characters scrapping in the dust for chance against him - with only more and more people joining it, no one leaving it, and all their information being pumped into the ever-enlarging overbrain of it, that this just is the beginning, if not the middle, of what it is for the game to degenerate around him.
That's all.


*By this I mean just the fact that, for a smaller population, small, chance events mean dramatically greater proportional difference to that population. In particular, things preventing just the one man Xyro, from showing up to some big, particular tourney, pretty much axe Samus representation right there (if we just take the acclaim of Xyro to be based in fact for the sake of argument). No one Falco, by contrast, means anything near as much.

It would even appear that some characters have only their best players on other continents.

*~*~*~
One other thing:

The best arguments from each side:

There is no "anti-ban argument". No one has to argue "that MK should not be banned" as some kind of position that might or might not become appealing to onlookers. EDIT: No one need even argue "that: not: MK should be banned."

They simply need to defend the negation - or, non-acceptance - of the claim that MK should be banned, by refuting all arguments to its effect.

It's up to one side to provide a sound argument that MK should be banned; and "the other side" is just the crucible of skepticism and logic that keeps the unsound arguments in check, 'burning' away the volatiles (untruth) to be left with pure, precious metal (truth).

Burden of Proof is laid down for us in clear terms: "Nothing should be banned without a reason."

Continually summarising this thread under these bivalent headers shows only another lingering misunderstanding in this debate: one of the debate itself.


Anti-ban needs only to 'argue' one thing:

"I have no reason for that belief."​

 

[Kewkky]

I think that the less metaphors, advanced vocabulary, and complex wording, the more people will understand and be interested in what you have to say. I'm sorry, but (even if I do OR DON'T understand) spending too much time reading one's point of view over the whole debate just to see another, well, point of view, is time not well spent IMO.

I do agree with you, though... Banning a character before experimenting other different 'more viable' options would be too much a drastic measure in itself to take.

 

[Masmasher@]

Pk- OW is right the other side has no arguments. They are simply a wall trying to refute everything. Some pieces of the wall are more fortified and reinforced than others. That is a problem within itself. Its not like pure awesomes example of the carrot eliminating all tangents and solving the main problem because the criteria for each person for meta knight to be banned varies. yuna criteria follows closely to strlins. Very different from some of the other anti banners. his criteria for banning something will be very hard to disprove. problem is not everyones resolve is as structured as his. When their reasons are deturred then their fallback is simply he shouldnt be banned! learn your characters!
the pro ban side has ignorance but it least they are attempting to justifly said ignorance the anti ban just has random morons screaming from the peanut gallery.
Looking in to this the pro ban side may not be all the way right but they put in the effort. We've had time to analyze mks dominance/work on other characters and its proven that a more diverse scene would appear in his banning. Can you take the risk?

 

[__V]

Here's a simple idea:

Restrict Meta-Knight to MK-only tourneys. That way it actually takes skill to determine the winner, he isn't banned, and he stops ruining the game.

Also ban Dedede from versing any character he can standing-chaingrab. This opens up tourneys to Donkey Kong and Luigi.

*waits for 9001 MK mains to whine because they won't be able to make easy money*

 

[One_With_Sumthing]

Here's a simple idea:

Restrict Meta-Knight to MK-only tourneys. That way it actually takes skill to determine the winner, he isn't banned, and he stops ruining the game.

Also ban Dedede from versing any character he can standing-chaingrab. This opens up tourneys to Donkey Kong and Luigi.

*waits for 9001 MK mains to whine because they won't be able to make easy money*

...No. And I'm not a MK main, I'm a Link main (80:20).

 

[-Ran]

The first part of many a decision is realizing that you do not know all of the variables. Nor can you even quantify every reason for why you make a decision, for much of it falls under intuition. For us to go line by line to describe why a character, stage, or item must be banned is impossible. Eventually we will have to make this decision.

I reiterate, it will NOT be a perfect one. We will NEVER have all of the information necessary to ban/not ban Meta Knight. We are competitive gamers, we have a vast wealth of information that is ingrained in our minds from constant gaming for decades. We must look at our past to decide our future. There are facts that back up MK being in need of a ban, such as the most tournament wins, phenomenal match ups, over centralization of the game, and the fact that no single character has an answer to him. I have no doubt in my mind that MK is going to be banned in the future. It may not be now, but it will occur unless some incredible game-changing break through is made.

Let's be honest. We need to live in the present.

It's better for someone to learn Mk than any other character in the game.
The ease of picking up Meta Knight is incredible.
The fact that Mk can be universally used vs all characters increases the ease of learning him.
Many players are transitioning from using secondary use of Mk to full time MK.
The Discussion of MK has broken the forum software and caused it to show two more pages in the thread about his banning. =p

The removal of MK will create a 'MK BUMP' for many of the High tier characters. The tier list will see an incredible level of play in it for the top ten spots. Snake won't be the number one man in the game, that much I'm sure of once the dust settles. There is one other thing I'm sure of.

No one posting in this thread is going to change their opinion based off of anything that is written in it. Some are simple here to argue, while others are so steadfast in their beliefs that they aren't going to change, unless the community as a whole does.

 

[ShadowLink84]

lol. So, for Sonic MK is winnable and that's okay and acceptable, but when it's winnable for all of High and Top Tier except for Marth Meta Knight is so broken and nobody can defeat him?

Really? Show where I have ever made such a statement.
Or you can put your glasses/contact lenses/get your eyes checked.
let alone that my statement was poking at the fact that you are making a statement that argues that a low tier character automatically has a abd matchup against a top tier character.
Which is not true.

No Johns.

Seriously?
So when the better player wins a matchup because he was better than the Mk user you seriously are going to pull no johns.

*facedesk*

You say Top MKs cannot be defeated. Obviously they can.

Are you serious? you gotta be kidding me.

WHY ARE YOU MAKING ANA SSUMPTION OF MY ARGUMENT WHEN CLEARLY, I WAS NOT EVEN DISCUSSING MK BEING BAN WORTHY OR NOT.

LET ALONE I AM
ANTI BAN!

 

[da K.I.D.]

Here's a simple idea:

Restrict Meta-Knight to MK-only tourneys. That way it actually takes skill to determine the winner, he isn't banned, and he stops ruining the game.

Also ban Dedede from versing any character he can standing-chaingrab. This opens up tourneys to Donkey Kong and Luigi.

*waits for 9001 MK mains to whine because they won't be able to make easy money*

when i watch tourneys on live stream, some times i forget that tourneys ARENT MK only cause thats all you will see for the last 6-8 matches.
@ bold
Serious question right now.

Are there really REALLY people that still hold tourneys where D3s standing infinite ISNT banned? Cus its been banned in every tourney Ive bothered to pay attention to since like... last september

The Discussion of MK has broken the forum software and caused it to show two more pages in the thread about his banning. =p

No one posting in this thread is going to change their opinion based off of anything that is written in it. Some are simple here to argue, while others are so steadfast in their beliefs that they aren't going to change, unless the community as a whole does.

I THOUGHT I WAS THE ONLY ONE THAT WAS GETTING THAT!!


This is true, nobody is going to switch sides from what they read in this thread. But some people are still on the fence and may be swayed by what they read here...

 

[cutter]

Honestly, I'm starting to get just sick and tired of all the cries of wanting all sorts of **** banned.

The D3 infinites do not warrant a ban; neither does planking nor does Meta Knight.

People need to understand that banning something is done as an absolute last resort when all other options have failed.

I am willing to give Meta Knight the benefit of doubt until Apex and Genesis to see how really bad things are. Until then, he's here to stay.

 

[CR4SH]

I'm giving MK the benefit of the doubt until Whobo and CoT4 Lol. Or whichever were the last two huge tournaments. Or whichever are the next two after genesis and apex. All of which will be dominate by MK btw.

Also, to those of you who say "mk really isn't broken" "MK is completely beatable" technically, no he isn't. He has IDC, we just don't let him use it. Goofy.

 

[Yuna]

Also, to those of you who say "mk really isn't broken" "MK is completely beatable" technically, no he isn't. He has IDC, we just don't let him use it. Goofy.

Jigglypuff had Rising Pound in Melee. I suggest we crusade for Jigglypuff to be banned in Melee.

 

[Shaya]

Jigglypuff had Rising Pound in Melee. I suggest we crusade for Jigglypuff to be banned in Melee.

You can counterpick that with another Jigglypuff.

IDC isn't solved by both players picking meta knight though.

 

[Yuna]

You can counterpick that with another Jigglypuff.

IDC isn't solved by both players picking meta knight though.

Good point! The only solution for the I.D.C. is stages whose terrain changes a lot, I guess.

 

[gallax]

i say this debate needs to be put on hold till after genesis. let some real results pile in.

 

[swordgard]

Otherwise I'm not seeing anything else from you worth much of a response.

Edit: one more thing worth noting, you and basically everyone else tends to ignore the implied "If player skill is equal" in matchup numbers. MK is better than everyone in every matchup, plus you can't stage CP him. That's pretty ridiculous.

Just so you guys stop spreading bad info. When he goes marth and others, hes sandbagging >.> .

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

...No. And I'm not a MK main, I'm a Link main (80:20).

That ratio isn't accepted anymore.

edit: To ask about the Marth vs MK match-up, it is winnable, it's just his hardest match-up.

 

[Master Raven]

Avarice, DDD beats Marth too.