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Should Metaknight be Banned? ***Take 3***

Should Metaknight be banned?


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PK-ow!

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I think that the less metaphors, advanced vocabulary, and complex wording, the more people will understand and be interested in what you have to say. I'm sorry, but (even if I do OR DON'T understand) spending too much time reading one's point of view over the whole debate just to see another, well, point of view, is time not well spent IMO.
What do you mean advanced voca-

*looks over what he wrote*

Aww, crap.

I'm afraid I don't know how to avoid that. If I don't put the words down in that form, I just don't know how to say what I mean. :urg:

I do agree with you, though... Banning a character before experimenting other different 'more viable' options would be too much a drastic measure in itself to take.
That. . . is not at all what I said.

Unless you meant the part I had for Shaya. Then it is something to do with what I said. Remotely.
...
If there were an emoticon for depression to the point of bawling one's soul out, I'd use it right here. That's how depressed it makes me I'm really so unclear. :(


Pk- OW is right the other side has no arguments. They are simply a wall trying to refute everything. Some pieces of the wall are more fortified and reinforced than others. That is a problem within itself. Its not like pure awesomes example of the carrot eliminating all tangents and solving the main problem because the criteria for each person for meta knight to be banned varies. yuna criteria follows closely to strlins. Very different from some of the other anti banners. his criteria for banning something will be very hard to disprove. problem is not everyones resolve is as structured as his. When their reasons are deturred then their fallback is simply he shouldnt be banned! learn your characters!
the pro ban side has ignorance but it least they are attempting to justifly said ignorance the anti ban just has random morons screaming from the peanut gallery.
Looking in to this the pro ban side may not be all the way right but they put in the effort. We've had time to analyze mks dominance/work on other characters and its proven that a more diverse scene would appear in his banning. Can you take the risk?
By contrast. . .
Masmasher, this is a disgustingly lazy corruption of what I said. While my normal response would be "please read more carefully," I simply cannot avoid the conclusion that you negligently twisted my words, in your mind, to arrive at your own personal view of the scenario. Hence, "lazy".

Please question what you read, but also your own motives as you read them.


New material: (EDIT: This is post 3206, by the way)

No, this is what I'm trying to get at.

It seems that nobody cares if you use a secondary against a bad match-up that you have. If Lee went Marth in a match-up Lucario was bad at and Marth was good at, nobody would have cared. Everyone would have been fine with it.

But he went MK.

And suddenly, everyone's going crazy over his decision which was really just personal preference, because another character would have worked just as well as MK. It's the same match-up. But now suddenly, this is reason to ban MK, when it really should not be.

I forget exactly who posted this like 20 pages back, but it's a true statement: you either use the CP system or you don't. Don't put up the argument that, "MK destroys the CP system!" when you're against people actually using said CP system, like in this case. If you aren't actually using secondaries to cover bad match-ups, saying that MK destroys the CP system is a hypocritical argument.
There isn't such a thing as "a hypocritical argument", like that's a fallacy.

I can argue a perfectly valid, even sound argument, but not live/practice the conclusion in my personal life.

It doesn't make the argument invalid, unsound, or unusable. I could be making an argument that is sound by accident, I could have failed to realize the contradiction between my actions and the conclusion, or I could just be bonkers while a logical progression of statements happened to flow from my mouth. Anything's possible.

What is a fallacy, would be rejecting an argument because the arguer is allegedly "hypocritical." And the name should be well-known: Ad hominem.
 

|RK|

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I have a rather serious post here; this line is to make it more readable.

There is a problem with stating one needs to say "the best people of other characters show up" to some tourney. For one, the marginalization of said characters, causing underrepresentation, causing sparser representation, causing more chance-prone difficulties* in congregation, can cause the lack of aforementioned turnout. This is a confound for what you hope to conclude, since it entangles dependent and independent variables.

Two, there's the issue of, some character boards just don't have anyone good.
It is said that MK's meta game hurries along toward infinity, as so many, and such amazing, players use him, including the never-less-relevant-than-a-force-of-nature-all-its-own player, Mew2King. Other characters are just being dwarfed. Here's the crucial point I need to get across: If you let the nonproduction of significant new development (+ notable tournament application thereof) from other characters, count in this situation (of exponentially-developing MK strategery), for "well we haven't seen the best of X character, here at set of Y high-profile tournaments, so 'it's to be expected', that the MKs dominate the placing spots", then you're *never* going to be able to say Meta Knight ought to be banned.

You'd have a requirement on what needs to be established which, in the fact of that skepticized claim being right (if it is), can never be observed.

Put another way, you'd have a requirement on what needs to be established that, through the fact of the defended position being wrong, causally closes the world from ever manifesting it.

It would, in effect, be a question-begging defense.

In so doing, you'd be casting your gaze over the very offending thing: That MK just grows without end. We know that: we never know if our meta game knowledge is complete, or how 'close' it is to the "true game". In that sense, every ban decision that ever would be warranted, would be on incomplete information. A character could be banned and then, just as a divine joke, something could be found and published the next Thursday to change the game in one shot, reordering the tiers, and making that brokenness you established mundane in comparison. You *don't know*.
But what you do know is when your Z character's domination is (i) domination, (ii) [that it's] gone on for yea so long, and (iii) you only project it to be such as bad in all foreseeable consequence.

And on that, you decide to ban.

So I really want to believe, that those who are considering this matter gravely with all their expertise, remember that if it comes to MK becoming a phenomenon unto itself - all other characters scrapping in the dust for chance against him - with only more and more people joining it, no one leaving it, and all their information being pumped into the ever-enlarging overbrain of it, that this just is the beginning, if not the middle, of what it is for the game to degenerate around him.
That's all.


*By this I mean just the fact that, for a smaller population, small, chance events mean dramatically greater proportional difference to that population. In particular, things preventing just the one man Xyro, from showing up to some big, particular tourney, pretty much axe Samus representation right there (if we just take the acclaim of Xyro to be based in fact for the sake of argument). No one Falco, by contrast, means anything near as much.

It would even appear that some characters have only their best players on other continents.

*~*~*~
One other thing:



There is no "anti-ban argument". No one has to argue "that MK should not be banned" as some kind of position that might or might not become appealing to onlookers. EDIT: No one need even argue "that: not: MK should be banned."

They simply need to defend the negation - or, non-acceptance - of the claim that MK should be banned, by refuting all arguments to its effect.

It's up to one side to provide a sound argument that MK should be banned; and "the other side" is just the crucible of skepticism and logic that keeps the unsound arguments in check, 'burning' away the volatiles (untruth) to be left with pure, precious metal (truth).

Burden of Proof is laid down for us in clear terms: "Nothing should be banned without a reason."

Continually summarising this thread under these bivalent headers shows only another lingering misunderstanding in this debate: one of the debate itself.


Anti-ban needs only to 'argue' one thing:

"I have no reason for that belief."​
Pretty much says that if you know it's to be expected that MKs will dominate the top spots when the top players of other characters aren't there, you can never say that MK should be banned. Some of these players are on entirely different continents. Should we ban a character now, as a fateful joke, new information could be published that changes the tiers in a single sweep, making everything we established as broken mundane and outdated. Oh, and he's hoping we are considering, with all of our expertise, that with the new people coming to MK pump overall knowledge into MKs minds, and is the beginning of the game degenerating around him. If it comes to MK being a phenomenon, of course.

Oh, and there is no such thing as an anti-ban argument. It actually is just defense against the points of the pro-ban argument, because anti-ban is status quo. You defend status quo, or you attack it for change.

Simple enough. (Amirite?)
 

MorphedChaos

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Only one I'm not sure of Yuna is Corneria, was the fin shenanigans too much, along with the front lazer? I doubt it was the fighters, they do 0 knockback, only stop you.
 

Liquid Gen

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I don't understand why people want MK banned when he doesn't completely **** anyone.

I main Bowser; I could say "lololol ban dedede maybi" because of his infinite. Rather, I find the Dedede matchup rather fun to play, as a game of hit and run, and I also chaingrab D3 back when I get the chance.

Basically, stop bawing and learn the matchup. It isn't that hard.
 

BentoBox

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There isn't such a thing as "a hypocritical argument", like that's a fallacy.

I can argue a perfectly valid, even sound argument, but not live/practice the conclusion in my personal life.

It doesn't make the argument invalid, unsound, or unusable. I could be making an argument that is sound by accident, I could have failed to realize the contradiction between my actions and the conclusion, or I could just be bonkers while a logical progression of statements happened to flow from my mouth. Anything's possible.

What is a fallacy, would be rejecting an argument because the arguer is allegedly "hypocritical." And the name should be well-known: Ad hominem.
It is hypocritical if it involves double standards. A player who does not take advantage of the counterpicking system might not be switching characters when at a disadvantage simply because he feels comfortable with the match-up or for whatever else reason. Even if they could have CPd, they didn't, and went into a MU knowing full well the odds were against them. Those players either do not really care about the CP system or it really isn't at the core of the smash series, like everyone claims it to be.

Said players who did not care to CP their opponents suddenly feel like it is unfair that MK cannot be CPd for an advantage and scream ban. Why is that? Why can't they settle for a 40:60 MU like in all the numerous occasions when faced against other characters? Why can't they settle for an even MU? Why is it that they MUST have an advantage over MK? Why single him out?

If you show that you are fine with handicapping yourself right off the bat (by picking a lower tiered character) when the option of picking a character or a combination of characters with greater odds is available, why should we suddenly bend the rules to cater to your stubborness? Like I said, you either play to win or you don't.
 

Dantarion

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People keep ignoring this, espcially many of the antiban people.

No one is saying MK is broken, unbeatable, etc.
We are saying that the game revolves around him in a way that many don't like.

There is never a reason to play as any character other than MK, unless you just haven't spent time to learn him, or don't want to use him. There is no bad matchup, no bad stage, nothing.
 

BentoBox

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Yes, there is generally no point in playing anyone but the A/S tiers. It doesn't seem like most need a reason to pick a character other than sheer preference though, unless they're actually playing to win.
 

IC3R

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Let's ban Metaknight for the heck of it, just to see where it goes. Simply put, an AT for a character means nothing if it can't do MK in.

Look at SamuraiPanda's sig; there are THREE Metaknights in there...


If the roster's metagame begins to grow and expand, then give MK a temporary unbanning, to see where it stands. After a while, we may be able to rewrite the Tier List; if MK still proves to be broken and claim his own tier, then we can re-ban him, if desired.

If nobody's metagame significantly evolves, then unban him; nothing changed.


(Or we can play Brawl+ :D)
 

BOB SAGET

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MK shouldnt be banned. so what if he's the best character. every game has a best a character. and when u ban MK snake is now the best character. MK has bad stages like FD and yoshi's island(melee) which can change the tide of the battle. and snake is a counter to MK and wario and MK r even
 

yummynbeefy

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MK shouldnt be banned. so what if he's the best character. every game has a best a character. and when u ban MK snake is now the best character. MK has bad stages like FD and yoshi's island(melee) which can change the tide of the battle. and snake is a counter to MK and wario and MK r even
1. yoshis island melee is hardly ever a cp at tourneys

2. snake is a 45-55 meta and wario is 40-60 meta
 

One_With_Sumthing

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No one is saying MK is broken, unbeatable, etc.
Actually... many people have said that he is broken, unbeatable, etc.

There is never a reason to play as any character other than MK, unless you just haven't spent time to learn him, or don't want to use him. There is no bad matchup, no bad stage, nothing.
Nor is there any reason to play as any character other than Link unless you haven't spent time to learn him, or don't want to use him. This says nothing.

Also, aside from playing to win, people play for fun and style, so the theory of the expansion of centralization may not reflect reality
 

IC3R

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MK shouldnt be banned. so what if he's the best character. every game has a best a character. and when u ban MK snake is now the best character. MK has bad stages like FD and yoshi's island(melee) which can change the tide of the battle. and snake is a counter to MK and wario and MK r even
Okay, the MK player can just ban one of those. And FinalD isn't a so much a bad stage as it is an non-advantageous stage. Of course he'll ban FinalD if he's up against a Diddy or Falco main, but Yoshi's Island (M)...who likes that stage anyway? Snake?

Also, that last statement is false.
 

BOB SAGET

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it depends how u yourseelf r against certain characters. every person has their own character they have trouble with. a lot of MK mains would agree with me on how mch trouble wario and snake cause.
 

bludhoundz

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Wario would be more of a problem if he could stay in the air indefinitely.

But he has to land some time. A smart MK will take advantage of this.
 

Twin_Scimitar

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Yes, I believe he should be banned. My reasons have not changed from the last threads. It basically boils down to this summary:

I believe it will be better for the metagame and Brawl as a whole with him banned.

Why is this grounds for banning something? Well, it was grounds for banning items - items are not broken, but they reduce the metagame to something silly - for example, food. If we can ban food because its not the type of game we want to play, I believe we can ban Metaknight for hampering the growth and competive aspects of the game.

Why is this not true of any other character? Because banning another character won't have only positive effects - if you banned snake, for example, it would hurt DDD because people use him to beat Snake. Metaknight has no bad matchups so banning him hurts no one besides metaknight, everything else can grow.

That's it in a jiff.

Basically, we cam ban him just because its much, much, much better for the game because we ban the food item because its much, much much better for the game

Food is less broken than metaknighit. IMO this can be NEARLY universally agreed upon. So if we can ban food, then we can ban Metaknight. As far as I'm concerned, the only thing of debate is whether banning MK is good or bad for the competitive game. To me all the evidence of his lack of bad matchups suggests it is indeed good for the game in a a spectrum of ways.
This plus Pierce's bit are what has solidified my pro-ban status. Too lazy to re post that, but it basically goes over meta knight's superior options. I've thought about it and I can't think of a reason why not to ban something if the banning will make the game a much better game. When I say better I mean better competitively, not "fun". I don't mean just Edreeses's opinion obviously, we could go through all of the possible ramifications before hand as a community to see if there were any negatives. If we find none and we ban meta knight, but some eventually appear we can bring him back. This approach is just as foolish as continuing to keep him in the game when it could become a game with 70% of the population MK, and we have to ban him in that scenario. It's just that we keep more people in this one.

In any case, if the community agrees to ban under this criteria, ie. reaches a decided upon ratio, I think it makes sense to go through with it despite the possible ramifications. The "community" in this case could be anything from the SBR, to the entire community, to people who have been identified to have placed in tournaments.

The only negative argument's (remember the theory is founded on the fact that a ban should take place if there are no negative arguments) I've seen are:

The "Marth will dominate" argument, which is unlikely because DDD cps him to some degree, he doesn't have as good stages as MK does, and his options are not nearly as good as MKs.

The Snake will be next argument, which DDD yet again puts a stop to.

The "why don't we just ban everything else we don't like about the game" argument is the only one that has given me pause. Yet, after analyzing it, I think if we carefully evaluate the "look at negative ramifications clause" there is nothing wrong with this, as long as we keep this argument only for characters and stages. Making sure to apply it in order to improve the competitive environment is important as well, because things that are annoying or not convenient for some players might be what makes the game competitively sound in general. So this would be an important part of our, qualifications to ban, you could say. We aren't hacking the game in any way, so I don't see how this would lead to banning/moding moves that seem to good, or "unfair".

If people could respond with problems with the theory in general, I'd be appreciative, since I'm more concerned about the theory than negatives that I'm wrong about or have overlooked.

Note: The comparison to food is not a part of this post's logic, only Edreeses' logic, so yeah I'm picking and choosing.

Also Bob Sagat has proven himself to me to be a lost cause, so I wouldn't bother with him until he proves otherwise.
 

BOB SAGET

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brinboy your right. snakes matchup with MK is highly debated. if its still being debated then as of right now they should be about even. but it really differs from player to player.
 

bobson

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The "Does Wario go even with Metaknight" debate is entirely useless unless planking is banned.
 

|RK|

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Yeah, the Warios now seem to say it's 50:50. So now the best counter isn't MK himself, but another character who won't make stuff stale.
 

One_With_Sumthing

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wtf? there is another reason its to win.
That's falls under "don't want to use him" category.

I am but pointing out the pointlessness in saying that the only reason one would want to play a certain character is if one wants to play that character, and the only reason one would not want to play a certain character is if one does not want to play that character. That is, the reflexive property. Circular logic. Whatever you wish to call it.
 

Twin_Scimitar

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Yeah, the Warios now seem to say it's 50:50. So now the best counter isn't MK himself, but another character who won't make stuff stale.
50:50 doesn't make him the best counter.

The only wario I've seen to make that claim was Fiction. Most Warios in the thread that you created are still divided between 55:45 and 50:50. I don't know how you came to that conclusion. Regardless I'm splitting hairs, not a big deal.

Also, don't you understand that Planking does not equal stalling in many cases? That's why we have some many great examples of it in tournaments! Regardless, due to the lack of a ledge grab rule it is hard to enforce anti-planking.
 

|RK|

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Hm? Oh, no someone had said earlier in the topic that if the best counter is the same character, doesn't that mean that something's wrong?
 

AvaricePanda

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edit: I'm honestly against the banning of planking at this point of time. I hate it and think that it MIGHT prove gamebreaking and bannable, but we don't know that because the only character boards that have even considered talking about planking are the ones that have feasible options against them. There hasn't been enough experimentation to test if planking is banworthy, if it can be beaten with any character. I haven't seen the Falco, Wolf, DK, or whatever character boards with, "Anti-Planking," threads. Until it's actually proven to be banworthy, it shouldn't be banned.

People who are saying that Snake vs. MK is only 45-55 and Wario vs. MK is only 40-60...do you know either of those two match-ups?

Also, Hylian said back on page like 30 about how subjective match-up numbers are. What do those even mean, anyway? Does 45-55 mean that it takes 55 amount to effort to win while your opponent needs only 45 (if you're the guy with the disadvantage)? Does it mean that 9 out of 20 times, you'll lose? What are these numbers exactly? Honestly, match-up numbers (much like the tier list ohey) are just a rough guideline to how the match-up is, and should not be put so much weight on.

People are acting as if 55-45 matchups (matchups that most probably don't actually even know) are unwinnable. Those numbers are very suggestive though; to some, that's basically even and skill is the determining factor, while to others it means that the 55 person is basically guaranteed to win unless they don't know the match-up.

I'm really tired of hearing, "MK breaks the CP system! He has no bad match-ups or bad stages!"

1) Many will argue that he has basically even match-ups. Some will argue that there are matchups that are slightly against his favour. Whatever the case is, he has quite a few basically even match-ups, which means that in the highest level of play, skill determines who wins.

2) Yes, MK has no bad stages. But a lot of characters don't have bad stages that are just bad on their own, only against certain match-ups. Snake has no bad stages except arguably Rainbow Cruise, which he can just ban. Wario has no bad stages except arguably Mansion, which really shouldn't be legal anyway. Diddy has no bad stages except RC against Kirby, D3, and MK, in which case he can ban that. Does that make them banworthy?

What does this all mean?:

MK is in no way necessary to win a large national tournament. He has arguably even match-ups, which means that there are characters who can contest with him and have the better skilled player win. While other characters do have bad match-ups, the worst for most tournament viable characters is 4-6, which is very winnable. I've heard Snake mains say that the vs. D3 match-up really isn't as bad as people make it out to be.

Even if it isn't, you can use secondaries to cover these match-ups. And those secondaries don't have to be Metaknight. If you're a Snake main and secondary Falco, then you cover the D3 matchup better than you would if you secondaried MK, as most D3s will tell you that Falco is a bigger threat to them. Same with many match-ups. While MK does have a good matchup against most of the cast and even ones against some, he usually is not the best option against most characters. If D3 gives you trouble, Falco would be a better secondary than MK. If Diddy gives you trouble, Marth would be a better secondary than MK. If Snake gives you trouble, D3 would be a better secondary than MK.

Because Metaknight is not even close to necessary to win a national tournament, and he has even winnable match-ups where the top skilled players comes on top, he should not be banned.
 

Twin_Scimitar

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Hm? Oh, no someone had said earlier in the topic that if the best counter is the same character, doesn't that mean that something's wrong?
Technically since the two sides of the Wario community that are undecided are 55:45 Mk favor and 50:50 we can only assume that MK is still the best counter. Still the small difference in the match up doesn't matter if the Warios, or a Wario rather, don't beat the MKs at Genisis.

As a side note looking at Fast 1, Hobo 11, Winter Games Fest 09', and COT4 Wario has beaten MK 1 to 3 times. I looked at Critical hit 3 and other large tourneys, but top Warios didn't place so they don't work as a comparison. Spammer doesn't count since he used Wario against Snake, not MK (he placed under M2k just the same, but yeah). That's my research on it, feel free to correct me if I've been negligent.
 

TLMSheikant

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Ive been converted to antiban :). A lot of smart posts from the antiban side got to me. Sorry proban. Still u have my vote :( and I cant change it. >_>
 

BOB SAGET

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welcome TLMSheikant to antiban. u as well as many others believe MK isnt unbeatable and isnt killing everyone at tournaments. all his matches r very close. and u also believe that he does have bad stages and does have bad matchups. so banning MK is pointless. welcome to the better side. lol
 

Dotcom

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The way I see it is that the T.O's still make the decision to ban MK at their tournies, that's why there have been some tournies where MK is banned and such. So we can argue and don't get me started I'm in support of the ban, but it will always be up to where you go if Mk is banned or not. Like even if the band was passed I doubt NJ(home of M2K,Spam, and many many more MK's) would have him banned at their tournies.
 

Twin_Scimitar

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The way I see it is that the T.O's still make the decision to ban MK at their tournies, that's why there have been some tournies where MK is banned and such. So we can argue and don't get me started I'm in support of the ban, but it will always be up to where you go if Mk is banned or not. Like even if the band was passed I doubt NJ(home of M2K,Spam, and many many more MK's) would have him banned at their tournies.
Not trying to get you started, but if banning is in fact the correct move (just humor me), then it still makes sense to have that be the recommended rule set regardless of the logistics of the TO situation.
 

One_With_Sumthing

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welcome TLMSheikant to antiban. u as well as many others believe MK isnt unbeatable and isnt killing everyone at tournaments. all his matches r very close. and u also believe that he does have bad stages and does have bad matchups. so banning MK is pointless. welcome to the better side. lol
Many of his matches aren't close, he doesn't have more than 1 bad stage (which he can just ban), and does not have bad matchups.
 
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