Should Metaknight be Banned? ***Take 3***

[AvaricePanda]

It's not the same thing, lee didn't use MK on a low tier that his original character had an advantage against he used it on a character that countered his main because he didn't have enough confidence that he would win. And of course no one would have cared if he used marth and that would have actually shown that mk isn't as ban worthy but he didn't go marth did he?

The other tournaments are the reason the results aren't skewed. Unless the people you mentioned didn't place anywhere at all that weekend then they still had an effect. If it is not as big as whobo's then thats just to bad whobo had more people and a higher level of competition.

Whobo's top 5 also reflects what COT4 had lee dojo and m2k are on there and in fact COT4 could be considered skewed as well because Tyrant and DSF wheren't there which could have changed the results and is very likely since DSF has beaten two of the non MK names on the COT4 top 5.

No, this is what I'm trying to get at.

It seems that nobody cares if you use a secondary against a bad match-up that you have. If Lee went Marth in a match-up Lucario was bad at and Marth was good at, nobody would have cared. Everyone would have been fine with it.

But he went MK.

And suddenly, everyone's going crazy over his decision which was really just personal preference, because another character would have worked just as well as MK. It's the same match-up. But now suddenly, this is reason to ban MK, when it really should not be.

I forget exactly who posted this like 20 pages back, but it's a true statement: you either use the CP system or you don't. Don't put up the argument that, "MK destroys the CP system!" when you're against people actually using said CP system, like in this case. If you aren't actually using secondaries to cover bad match-ups, saying that MK destroys the CP system is a hypocritical argument.

Edit: Oh yeah, Ally and Anther placed first and second respectively at MWC:2 C4 Galore.

The problem is that people aren't considering all the other tournaments going on at the time when they pull up the WHOBO results. They pull up only the WHOBO results, saying, "Look at this national tournament where MK dominated!" not realizing that

1. The three best MKs were there.
2. There wasn't top representation from many other characters or people known to beat said MKs.
3. People used MK as a secondary for a couple of games and he was put next to their name.

 

[PikaPika!]

Jigglypuff had Rising Pound in Melee. I suggest we crusade for Jigglypuff to be banned in Melee.

It's almost like you actually believe what you type.

1. The three best MKs were there.
2. There wasn't top representation from many other characters or people known to beat said MKs.
3. People used MK as a secondary for a couple of games and he was put next to their name.

Besides just the top 3 wasn't the top 20 over 60% Metaknights? I'll have to look back at the results.

 

[1048576]

Part of being skilled should be knowing how to overcome badmatchups with a secondary. SSBB is a much richer competitive game than SSB Metaknight.

 

[CR4SH]

Just so you guys stop spreading bad info. When he goes marth and others, hes sandbagging >.> .

He played marth against anther in winner's finals. Sandbagging?

 

[Yuna]

It's almost like you actually believe what you type.

It's almost like you cannot comprehend blatant sarcasm.

 

[CR4SH]

Jigglypuff had Rising Pound in Melee. I suggest we crusade for Jigglypuff to be banned in Melee.

Idc isn't limited to stalling.

 

[Yuna]

Idc isn't limited to stalling.

I said this when? You find a good and practical way to allow IDC for non-stalling purposes.

 

[Overswarm]

I said this when? You find a good and practical way to allow IDC for non-stalling purposes.

Approaching, ledge-grabbing from across the stage quickly, evading an aerial approach, avoiding bombs in sudden death, moving out from the "monkey in the middle" position during a 2v1, and returning to the stage from the ledge

 

[Yuna]

Approaching, ledge-grabbing from across the stage quickly, evading an aerial approach

Please go back and re-read my post. I said allow, not use. Please name an entirely trouble-free way to allow the I.D.C. to be used in tournaments.

avoiding bombs in sudden death

What, indefinitely? Wait, we play Sudden Death now?

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Sudden Death is a pretty standard solution to same percent and stock time over ties and would have a strong case for being invoked in same frame death when both players are on the last stock, especially if no one was sure what the final percentages were.

 

[DrakeRowan]

Why actually try when we can ban things we just don't like.

Whats wrong with banning things the majority dont like? It worked for Prop 8 in California. Hmm...

 

[Yuna]

Sudden Death is a pretty standard solution to same percent and stock time over ties and would have a strong case for being invoked in same frame death when both players are on the last stock, especially if no one was sure what the final percentages were.

Really? You Yanks favor Sudden Death over replaying the match with 1 stock on the same stage? Idealogical differences, I guess.

 

[.AC.]

Whats wrong with banning things the majority dont like? It worked for Prop 8 in California. Hmm...

unlike regular elections,in this case i think it matters who is the one voting or arguing for a side.

 

[salaboB]

yuna criteria follows closely to strlins. Very different from some of the other anti banners. his criteria for banning something will be very hard to disprove. problem is not everyones resolve is as structured as his.

Two things:

Sirlin would never touch Brawl for balancing. He's smarter than that. Saying his criteria for banning could even be applied to it doesn't really work because he'd most likely just say the game is a loss for competitive play and effectively ban everything.

Yuna's only fixed criteria for banning are items that are his opinion, and thus inherently can't be disproven. He has no real facts or supporting details that can be disproven that you'll ever get him to declare and stick to. Things like "Meta Knight is not 'too good'" are what he defends with.

Why actually try when we can ban things we just don't like.

Did we try to find ways for the IDC to be allowed, short of just banning it? Or did we just ban something we didn't like?

Things get banned for not being liked all the time. In this case though, MK being allowed has been tried and nobody's really found a solution that knocks him out of the ideal fallback position - which dumbs down the competitive game (Everyone secondary MK!) and lessens matchup mindgames because he can't be counterpicked while every other character can.

 

[Yuna]

Yuna's only fixed criteria for banning are items that are his opinion, and thus inherently can't be disproven. He has no real facts or supporting details that can be disproven that you'll ever get him to declare and stick to. Things like "Meta Knight is not 'too good'" are what he defends with.

Hey, I stated my reasoning for banning most items. I specifically stated that several items do not necessitate a ban.

I, however, oppose the unbanning of certain items such as food. Disprove my reasoning, please. You didn't even try (IIRC, it was someone else entire who tried to prove that if MK isn't banned, food needs to be unbanned).

Did we try to find ways for the IDC to be allowed, short of just banning it? Or did we just ban something we didn't like?

Why would we not ban it when it is a stalling tactic? Since it is a stalling tactic which ends the match the second it is initiated, we banned it.

Now, if someone can come up with a valid way to allow it for non-stalling purposes, it will unbanned. But we just banned it altogether after lengthy debate since it'd be too time-consuming and troublesome to allow it on for non-stalling purposes due to the fact that it'd be a ***** to monitor.

Now, if you can come up with a good way of monitoring it for non-stalling purposes, be my guest.

Things get banned for not being liked all the time. In this case though, MK being allowed has been tried and nobody's really found a solution that knocks him out of the ideal fallback position - which dumbs down the competitive game (Everyone secondary MK!) and lessens matchup mindgames because he can't be counterpicked while every other character can.

Many competitive fighting games have characters such as MK. If you don't like having a character with zero bad match-ups, go be a part of a community whose main game doesn't have such a character. Or simply main someone who's not MK but who nevertheless needs no secondaries to win entire tournaments.

And don't whine about having to deliberately put yourself at a disadvantage. Unless your main has zero disadvantageous match-ups or you have secondaries to make up for every single one of those disadvantageous match-ups, you have no say in this. With MK gone, people will just flock to the 2nd best (best without MK) path to victory. If you're lucky, they'll take up secondaries to compensate for their worst match-ups.

Or they could just main Marth.

Also, stop distorting the facts and pretty much quasi-lying about what I and/or the Smash community have said and done. Because unlike less alert people, I will catch you every single time.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Can't you avoid the bombs in Sudden Death by just planking? Once the bomb start coming, both players grab an edge and you have a stalemate.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I dont think it would be a stale mate cause as time passes, the bomb's will drop faster, and you have to let go of the edge at some point then grab.

 

[bobson]

People need to understand that banning something is done as an absolute last resort when all other options have failed.

If only people would argue this for stages.

Edit: Yeah, sudden death bombs are easily avoided by ledgecamping. I was involved in a basic brawl match that went on for over fifteen minutes because two players ended up in sudden death and each of them went straight to the ledges.

 

[salaboB]

If only people would argue this for stages.

This argument came up earlier -- for some reason, stages are more permissible to ban than characters, even though banning them does restrict options in the game so should be a more last resort thing as well if as many options as possible should be left open.

The anti-ban side never had a good rebuttal for why the double standard is okay.

 

[Yuna]

If only people would argue this for stages.

Edit: Yeah, sudden death bombs are easily avoided by ledgecamping. I was involved in a basic brawl match that went on for over fifteen minutes because two players ended up in sudden death and each of them went straight to the ledges.

I support banning stages for the following reasons:
* Random elements which easily disrupt play or which can easily switch the game up. These elements have to be random and unpredictable, i.e., you must be surprised by them in such a way you cannot possibly avoid them every single time unless you're psychic.
* Anti-Competitive (such as you end up largely fighting the stage and not each other) and promoting camping to a ridiculous degree.
* Gives certain characters way too much of an advantage.
* Auto-win for certain character(s).

Any stages which do not fall under those conditions are not ban-worthy, IMO.

Also, how the hell did that 15-minute match end if both plages ledgecamped? Did one party simply screw up towards the end or did a TO step in and declare the match over?

This argument came up earlier -- for some reason, stages are more permissible to ban than characters, even though banning them does restrict options in the game so should be a more last resort thing as well if as many options as possible should be left open.

If you feel there are stages that should be unbanned, you're free to crusade for them to be unbanned.

The anti-ban side never had a good rebuttal for why the double standard is okay.

Because a single stage makes a much smaller impact on the metagame than a single character. Logic 1.0.

 

[Overswarm]

If only people would argue this for stages.

I do, and am yelled at frequently for it.

 

[bobson]

Also, how the hell did that 15-minute match end if both plages ledgecamped? Did one party simply screw up towards the end or did a TO step in and declare the match over?

One of them got bored, tried to approach and got killed by a bomb.

 

[bow master1]

how will dis info b used?

 

[BentoBox]

By being dismissed.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Because a single stage makes a much smaller impact on the metagame than a single character. Logic 1.0.

I have to respectfully disagree here.

FD is turning out to be the go to MK CP stage. and it is also a starter, and it is also a strong CP for a number of characters.

BF is turning into a go to CP stage For MK.

If you would like to reword your statement saying that a single CP stage has a smaller impact on the metagame, feel free. But just taking the statement that you made, I will have to say that it is my personal belief that FD and BF both have bigger effects on the SSBB metagame then any single character does.

 

[Kage Me]

Saying that, "there's no point in using anyone but the best character," just transfers to every fighter, and would transfer to Snake if MK was banned. I could use the exact same argument for Snake if MK is banned because there'd be no point in using anyone else, correct? Of course, Snake is somehow different in this aspect...

Yes. Yes, Snake is somehow different. Snake has bad match-ups. Maining Snake and a secondary is essentially the same as maining three mid tier characters who cover the bad match-ups of the other two. If Snake were the highest legal character in the game, other characters would see a lot more use.

 

[camzaman]

Diversity is an argument, because people are arguing for it. You may disagree that diversity is a valid reason to ban MK, but you can't tell people that think it is that their opinions don't exist.

 

[Yuna]

I have to respectfully disagree here.

FD is turning out to be the go to MK CP stage. and it is also a starter, and it is also a strong CP for a number of characters.

BF is turning into a go to CP stage For MK.

If you would like to reword your statement saying that a single CP stage has a smaller impact on the metagame, feel free. But just taking the statement that you made, I will have to say that it is my personal belief that FD and BF both have bigger effects on the SSBB metagame then any single character does.

I have to respectfully disagree with you there.

 

[salaboB]

Because a single stage makes a much smaller impact on the metagame than a single character. Logic 1.0.

Only because the ones that would allow one character easy wins (Dedede tends to have huge stage advantages, I believe) are banned.

You've created a self fulfilling prophecy here by banning all the stages that could have a large impact on the metagame if they were allowed before saying that banning stages doesn't have as much impact on the metagame as banning a character. (I know *you* personally are not responsible for them being banned, but you are taking advantage of that being the start scenario)

 

[Yuna]

Only because the ones that would allow one character easy wins (Dedede tends to have huge stage advantages, I believe) are banned.

You've created a self fulfilling prophecy here by banning all the stages that could have a large impact on the metagame if they were allowed before saying that banning stages doesn't have as much impact on the metagame as banning a character. (I know *you* personally are not responsible for them being banned, but you are taking advantage of that being the start scenario)

There are several criteria for banning stages, all of which boil down to:
These stages are anti-Competitive.

Many stages are banned for being anti-Competitive. Some have greater impact on the metagame than others.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Let me point something out.
How many times have we asked "should MK be banned"? A: enough to know that the matter will NEVER GO AWAY! There are so many MK mains that they will keep on sayin "no" and alot of the other mains will be like "yes". Eventually there will be enough people that hate MK (that is if over 50% of us are not MK users) and will DEMAND a ban. After that of course we will have "unban MK?" topics. -_-

The above should tell you one thing... "THERE IS SOMETHING SERIOUSLY WRONG WITH MK!"

 

[salaboB]

There are several criteria for banning stages, all of which boil down to:
These stages are anti-Competitive.

Many stages are banned for being anti-Competitive. Some have greater impact on the metagame than others.

That doesn't mean that many of them should be so easily discarded - obviously MK is demonstrating that anti-Competitive can be hard to really reach consensus on. Were a number of already banned ones re-enabled I suspect the overall metagame could be made to shift as much as banning MK would cause.

 

[Yuna]

The above should tell you one thing... "THERE IS SOMETHING SERIOUSLY WRONG WITH MK!"

There's something seriously wrong with Brawl in general. I suggest we ban Brawl.

Seriously, MK being really good is not reasons enough to ban him. There's something wrong with him, yah. He's just not "wrong" enough.

That doesn't mean that many of them should be so easily discarded - obviously MK is demonstrating that anti-Competitive can be hard to really reach consensus on. Were a number of already banned ones re-enabled I suspect the overall metagame could be made to shift as much as banning MK would cause.

How many times must I say this:
If you feel there are stages which are banned but which should not be, crusade for them to be unbanned!

 

[Ravin]

MK has no disadvantages the limit his playstyle on any stages. FD or BF.

Please name a few reasons why a neutral neutral stage limits MK. Ive looked over the MK forms as well as people like Dojo and M2K have no issues on either of these stages....

Soo....

 

[swordgard]

He played marth against anther in winner's finals. Sandbagging?

Yes, ally told me before hand hed try to go marth only. He did the same at ffyf2 using gaw, got sent to losers, then went snake. He only goes snake when he isnt sandbagging fyi. Please stop assuming stuff.

 

[da K.I.D.]

FD is MKs worst stage because othre than his inherent advantages he has nothing super gay to take advantage of. Like sharking on delfino and halberd or multiple ledges like norfair, or super close blast zones, like corneria, or green greens.

Its by no means a BAD stage for him cause hes still a broken character but the lack of stage exploits makes it his worst stage.

BF is just a stage on MKs expansive CP list because he can manuver around it easily and can easily take characters that do bad on that stage there and wreck them.

 

[salaboB]

How many times must I say this:
If you feel there are stages which are banned but which should not be, crusade for them to be unbanned!

This is irrelevant - I am using stage banning criteria as an example for an inconsistency with the anti-ban MK argument, not saying I have any stages in particular I care whether they're banned or not.

You may say it as many times as you want, but it won't debunk my example by your doing so.

 

[Yuna]

This is irrelevant - I am using stage banning criteria as an example for an inconsistency with the anti-ban MK argument, not saying I have any stages in particular I care whether they're banned or not.

You may say it as many times as you want, but it won't debunk my example by your doing so.

How about you name a few stages which you feel were banned even though they didn't have to be banned for once?

 

[CR4SH]

There's something seriously wrong with Brawl in general. I suggest we ban Brawl.

I know you're being sarcastic, but apart for the punchline of the joke, people need to take this sentiment more seriously.

Brawl is broken, brawl needs fixing. We play competitive pin the tail on the donkey for all intents and purposes. Most of us play it for the love of the game, and if we need to fix certain things for the good of the game (broken stages, broken items, broken playstyles and even broken characters) so be it.

 

[salaboB]

How about you name a few stages which you feel were banned even though they didn't have to be banned for once?

When you explain why examples are relevant.

My point was that stages can shift the metagame as much as banning a character (Depending on the stage), and banning them limits people's options. This was in direct opposition to your statement that they had less impact than banning a character. If I cared to do a "This stage should be unbanned" discussion then yes, I'd need examples -- but that's not what I'm doing here.