Should Metaknight be Banned? ***Take 3***

[Kewkky]

so now there's just a difference of 10% (5% before both end up tied) between "Yes" and "No"... If the "Not Sure" option wasn't there, this poll would be much more agreeable with in my eyes. Right now, it just seems that it depends on the "Not Sure" category who will be in the lead or not (and the very few who haven't voted, and the ones who changed their opinions).

 

[DanGR]

Anti-ban has refuted all of Pro-ban's points practically... The only one left is "MK break the counterpick system", but... It's not like the game DEPENDS on counterpicks, people usually pick the stages they feel most comfortable in rather than give lots of thought to the machup's advantage (emphasis on "usually", meaning not everyone does it that way)... Counterpicks ARE an important part of Brawl, but it's not a "counterpick right, or lose" thing. So, the argument of "MK breaks the counterpick system" is quite weak... And it's their best argument so far.

You have no idea what you're talking about. MK breaking the counterpick system is monumental. This game is based around the counterpick system and breaking it heavily subtracts from Brawl's competitive/tournament value. That should be a given.

The real debate behind this point is whether or not it's safe to say that MK actually does or does not have any bad matchups, and whether (if he doesn't) there is a chance that one of his closer matchups may become a disadvantage. [Intelligent] pro-ban advocates usually argue that he does NOT have any bad matchups, his matchups are growing more into his favor, and that there's no way any character ever will have an advantage over MK. [Intelligent] anti-ban advocates usually say either Diddy or Snake have an even or advantageous matchup against MK, or that it's too soon to tell (or some matchups are too close).

On top of this, players that want to win can, have, and will begin to slowly switch to MK simply because there is NO REASON for anybody that's goal is to win to use any character other than one that has no bad matchups. This means they don't have to work as nearly as hard as they would keeping up with two characters (or just using one and putting a lot of time into learning/studying bad matchups). This is DIFFERENT than Melee. There's a triangle of character matchups (Fox>Sheik>Marth>Fox) that balances the game and keeps the counterpick system in check.

We pointed out that the most MK's have dominated tourneys (in the worst scenarios) has been like 21% of the whole tourney, IN THE WORST CASES. In normal tourneys, MKs are picked as much as any other character (according to the other tourneys I have seen in the Tourney Results forum), meaning they aren't dominating in terms of outnumbering everyone else, just that they are simply overall better than the rest of the cast... Which is normal in a fighting game, there will always be a character which will be better than the rest... Hence the results that are piled together to create "tier lists". So, the argument of "MK dominates all the tourneys" is weak, if not invalid.

"MK dominating all tourneys" is a plainly false statement, and so it isn't even a good pro-ban argument. All you're doing (sadly) is using strawman to argue against a moot point, which is in turn, irrelevant.

We also pointed out that if MK is banned, most the MK mains will probably spread across the tier list... But of course, the higher tier'd characters will have the most attention, meaning the lower tiers will go practically unchanged (since people keep saying it's "PLAY TO WIN, not PLAY TO HAVE FUN"), which in turn points to the lower tiers' metagame progressing exactly the same as now (advancements and standstills would happen at more or less the same rate). So, the argument of "Banning MK will mean the lower tiers' metagame progress faster" is invalid.

MK doesn't make any characters unviable in a way that can contrast with D3's or IC's infinites... In fact, in most of the cases, MK isn't even the other characters' worst matchups! They're at a disadvantage, but it's usually around 60/40, sometimes leaning towards a neutral matchup than a disadvantageous one... Which means that in most of MK's matchups, the winner is determined by player skill... Which is not a bad amount, considering some other characters make OTHER characters literally NON-viable. So, the argument of "MK makes others non-viable for tourneys" is invalid.

And last thing I want to add... When was the last time you saw an MK-maining nobody beat a non-MK pro at a tourney? Obviously experience has to do with how MK mainers are winning the tourneys, so MK's character traits isn't EVERYTHING that's at fault here! The thing is that, overall best players PLUS overall best character meas overall best results... Resulting in the placings we see now and then in tourneys like WHOBO, CoT:4, and Hobo 11. So, the argument of "Anyone can pick up MK and win any tourney" is invalid.

Strawman, strawman, strawman. You have to do better than that.

And nobodys rarely/never beat great players because great players know how to fight bad MKs. That doesn't subtract from the fact that they're ALWAYS fighting an uphill battle when they're fighting MK.

 

[gallax]

Thanks Meno.
(:


Here's an interesting thread for you Galax:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=231789

are you just trying to support what i said? look at how many people said that they counterpick, then look at those who say they CP with MK. lolz.

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

You said you'd been practicing ZSS for your bad matchups, then decided to pull out MK at a tournie.

If you had been practicing MK for serious tournament use, you certainly did not mention that fact.

:flame:
Sorry about that. For someone that wants clarity and respect in a discussion over something like this, I usually oversite very small details that could lead to huge issues.

I constantly play the 12 characters that are in my signature. I was going to play the Pokemon Trainer, until I saw that Sonic made it in Brawl. But once Brawl was released, I played the characters based on the SubSpaceEmissary. That was where I got most of my experience with them (until I started playing online). After I unlocked them all, I decided to see who else I could play, and joined the community. Once I did, I found out that most of my preconceptions in Brawl were completely discredited (Mario and Captain Falcon being bad characters, Sonic and PT being only medium characters, Dedede and Olimar being good). So, I started looking around, and soon I found the MetaKnight issue. Seeing that scared me, since I always loved (and still love) playing as Metaknight. So, I went to ask the Lucario boards what I should do about my secondary (Lucario was my main the second I murdered Metaknight after the mountain level in the SSE. He's like Zelda + Samus + Uberness + Poweredup).

Then, I decided to use ZSS to cover my bad match ups. However, this didn't stop me from cycling through all my options (eventually getting me to pick up Ike, and regrabing Fox and Mario). And one of the tournaments I went to, I decided to see how people reacted to Metaknight. While playing, I learned an important lesson very quickly. Metaknight =/= instant win, and match ups are not necesarily concrete. Not only does he not play at the same rhythm as I do, but so many people were paranoid about him that they were ready to slit my throat for throwing him out for fun. I switched back to Lucario, begged for his appology, and since then, he has always been my "Best Foot Forward" approach when it comes to battling.

I love all of the characters I play as. And I honestly don't think that it's too fair to scare people from playing with them, just for debatable reasons. I remember when the game first came out; Ike was considered Tabuu. Then Snake was the person to ban. And now it's Metaknight. People, leave the characters alone, and just stick to player skilll! ;.;

(Not trying to insult anyone, and I appologise if I did so. These are just my own experiences/views).
:flame:

 

[Kewkky]

You have no idea what you're talking about. MK breaking the counterpick system is monumental. This game is based around the counterpick system and breaking it heavily subtracts from Brawl's competitive/tournament value. That should be a given.

The Counterpicking System is obviously a must in the Smash world, but it's not something that would kill the community without. Broken by a character or not, the CP system still serves its purpose when fighting MKs: helping you choose a stage that will hinder MK the most, even if it doesn't fall under the category of disadvantage. If you can't counter MK by using a stage, then learn a character that doesn't have a disadvantage against him (or has a slight one), rather than learn MK (which is also a neutral matchup, with the smartest player being victorious). If you're good enough, and you've practiced your game well enough, you shouldn't have as big a problem as everyone else in that stage. Look at ADHD in RC when he fought M2K, that's a good example of what I mean... And, obviously there will be better character choices than others, so trying to stay as Link or CFalcon against an obviously good MK is a bad idea. Not much thought to it.

And nobodys rarely/never beat great players because great players know how to fight bad MKs. That doesn't subtract from the fact that they're ALWAYS fighting an uphill battle when they're fighting MK.

Top players are ALWAYS fighting uphill battles against other top players, hence why they're "Top Players". They play smarter than the average guy, meaning that usually it's "whoever outsmarts their opponent the most, wins"... As we know, some top players main one character (Ally, M2K, Anther, SK92...) and not two, which means that these top players earned their status by playing in a different fashion against their alleged disadvantaged matchups. The counterpick system doesn't do much here, because the non-MK mainers would just strike the disadvantageous stage, plus they should be maining stand-alone characters, meaning it really IS smartest person wins.

And top players that main two or more characters also fight uphill battles, since MK has no literally disadvantageous matchups, and it's still up to whoever plays the smartest, and who makes the least mistakes. The counterpick system just makes them switch between characters, which shouldn't be happening unless they didn't strike the stage they should've at the start of the set.

PS: I dunno... I feel weird about what just wrote, but I'm gonna post it anyway, cuz I gotta do some stuff right now and can't write up something better.

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

so now there's just a difference of 10% (5% before both end up tied) between "Yes" and "No"... If the "Not Sure" option wasn't there, this poll would be much more agreeable with in my eyes. Right now, it just seems that it depends on the "Not Sure" category who will be in the lead or not (and the very few who haven't voted, and the ones who changed their opinions).

:flame:
There are still those that are on the Ban side that probably voted for it since they want a Temporary or Soft Ban, or that wanted a nerfing of MetaKnight's moves (which actually has been done before:Can you say Infinite Cape Glitch Ban? That was a nerfing of the Dimensional Cape. Why not nerf something else?). That's just a few things I've heard from other players and seen talked about before. If all of the options were considered, it'd be much more evenly spread. If it was just Yes and No, it'd probably be an exact tie.

I also love how there was a notable increase the Anti-Ban since AA's awesome posts. I saw the percents rising and falling at that point.
:flame:

 

[Dekar173]

?

Iraq/Afghanistan, nuking Hiroshima/Nagasaki, Stem cell research, Gay Rights, Bush's presidency, Federal Reserve, LACK OF separation of Church and State, etc.

There are a lot of mistakes made by "the more educated elite" including the MK issue. It's not that the SBR is full of idiots, it's more the fact that a lot of you have vested interests (I win with MK, I need him to win!) It's being put upon the shoulders of those of us who run tournaments and keep the gaming scene alive in our areas (TOs in other words) to lead the ban, as the SBR seems to be a bit slow in doing what is right for the metagame/community in general.

I want a healthier, better Smash community. I promote both Brawl and Melee at any and all tournaments I run (including all other fighters the Abq players want run at my events) and I work VERY hard to keep my community going strong. I have come to the conclusion that the Smash community as a whole would benefit greatly from the banning of MK, as many more people would be willing to participate in tournaments where they wouldn't have to worry about playing against an MK player every other round, and with added diversity, it's MUCH more fun.

Regardless of what any of the MK mains on the anti-ban side try and convince you, this game is better without MK. Ask anyone, it's more entertaining to watch, it's more entertaining to participate in, and it's much more entertaining to newcomers. What will become of newcomers in an MK legal Smash scene? They won't exist. Think Melee. New players are literally nonexistent in Melee, and Brawl is well on its way to that fate. Without newcomers, who's going to fund the pot at tournaments? No one.

MK will eventually be banned, of this I am absolutely certain. Until then, I'll have to sit by and watch scrubs like Inui chant their ignorant, regurgitated, poorly veiled attempts at flaming.

HOBO 16 was a success, as was my MK banned tourney held last night. By simply advertising that MK would be banned, I ensured a higher turnout than usual, despite HALF of the normal smashers being absent due to work/school.

Is anyone "anti-ban" going to even address my post?

 

[feardragon64]

HOBO 16 was a success, as was my MK banned tourney held last night. By simply advertising that MK would be banned, I ensured a higher turnout than usual, despite HALF of the normal smashers being absent due to work/school.

Is anyone "anti-ban" going to even address my post?

How's new mexico smash community going for ya?
I'm kidding.

One smash tournament doesn't say much about the overall attendance. I went to a tournament where mk wans't banned and it had a huge attendance. What's your point?

 

[Inui]

Iraq/Afghanistan, nuking Hiroshima/Nagasaki, Stem cell research, Gay Rights, Bush's presidency, Federal Reserve, LACK OF separation of Church and State, etc.

There are a lot of mistakes made by "the more educated elite" including the MK issue. It's not that the SBR is full of idiots, it's more the fact that a lot of you have vested interests (I win with MK, I need him to win!) It's being put upon the shoulders of those of us who run tournaments and keep the gaming scene alive in our areas (TOs in other words) to lead the ban, as the SBR seems to be a bit slow in doing what is right for the metagame/community in general.

I agree with Bush's presidency and think Obama is a horrible failure already. Nuking Hiroshima and Nagasaki was entirely necessary. We were dealing with extremists. The fact that they kept fighting after one bomb proves how extreme and insane they were. It took two to finally make them give up. You should probably educate yourself instead of being a liberal brainwashed by the media.

The SBR will make the decision based on what I said. Does MK destroy competitiveness of the game? Does he damage the community to the point where upsetting hundreds of MK mains is better than keeping MK in the game? Is he actually too good? We're not going to vote on stupid crap like a lot of people in this poll have.

I want a healthier, better Smash community. I promote both Brawl and Melee at any and all tournaments I run (including all other fighters the Abq players want run at my events) and I work VERY hard to keep my community going strong. I have come to the conclusion that the Smash community as a whole would benefit greatly from the banning of MK, as many more people would be willing to participate in tournaments where they wouldn't have to worry about playing against an MK player every other round, and with added diversity, it's MUCH more fun.

Oh, wow, me too. I happen to be a major host and a top player in my region. Banning MK would be extremely unpopular because NJ is strongly anti-ban overall. In order to maintain a healthy competitive scene in my area, I must keep MK allowed.

Beyond just my region, I think MK is just fine.

The more skilled and knowledgable a player is, the more likely they are to vote anti-ban. This is a trend I have noticed in the poll here and the poll in the SBR. It's because we're good at fighting MK and can overcome match-up disadvantages with intelligence and skill. We define the metagame, not players that see MK as some unbeatable broken God. The weaker players want MK out of the game because they don't have the reflexes to punish something that's like -25 on block, they can't powershield enough, they're making bad decisions while fighting MK, etc. Low tier players want one less top tier to worry about. There's an extreme amount of personal bias in this poll, which is why the SBR won't let it be the decision maker.

Regardless of what any of the MK mains on the anti-ban side try and convince you, this game is better without MK. Ask anyone, it's more entertaining to watch, it's more entertaining to participate in, and it's much more entertaining to newcomers. What will become of newcomers in an MK legal Smash scene? They won't exist. Think Melee. New players are literally nonexistent in Melee, and Brawl is well on its way to that fate. Without newcomers, who's going to fund the pot at tournaments? No one.

Yes, watching Falco camp lasers and CG people is fun. Watching Dedede run at people and shieldgrab is fun. Watching Olimar throw Pikmin and pivot grab is fun. Watching Game and Watch b-air all day and just do whatever he wants is fun.

At my college, they all want to keep MK in the game. Why? They're all a bunch of scrubs. There's like 30 of them that play Brawl with me and Izumi (15th in NJ) all day, and we both use MK a lot. Shouldn't they hate MK since we overwhelm so much?

Nope, because they're all pretty experienced against MK. There's a Lucas player at my school that I find harder than most tournament players because of how good he is vs MK. He almost beat dmbrandon's MK in tourny with his Lucas. He likes fighting MK, and would prefer fighting MK over Sonic and Olimar.

They'd rather watch me and Izumi do cool stuff with MK, actually fight, and do more things. It's boring for them to watch our one good Olimar player just camp forever, or watch our decent Ness player just f-air all day, or watch our decent Zelda player run aways helplessly and camp Din's Fire. Fighting against Olimar and Falco's camping is boring, and watching it is boring.

So, they like seeing and fighting Izumi and I when we use MK.

MK will eventually be banned, of this I am absolutely certain. Until then, I'll have to sit by and watch scrubs like Inui chant their ignorant, regurgitated, poorly veiled attempts at flaming.

MK will never be banned in Atlantic North. Of that I am absolutely certain. We are the furthest along in the metagame. This is a fact. Other regions will catch up and realize MK doesn't need to be banned.

Yes, I am a scrub, which is why I can win tournaments in the hardest region in the nation and I can actually beat top MK mains.

HOBO 16 was a success, as was my MK banned tourney held last night. By simply advertising that MK would be banned, I ensured a higher turnout than usual, despite HALF of the normal smashers being absent due to work/school.

Is anyone "anti-ban" going to even address my post?

Texas is always crushed by Dojo, so of course they'd love to see him crippled. The MK-ban didn't create more diversity. It just made MK not exist in the results and let low tier heroes place one spot higher.

Um... I've never heard of anything out of New Mexico. No big events, no top players...nothing. >_>;

 

[Kewkky]

HOBO 16 was a success, as was my MK banned tourney held last night. By simply advertising that MK would be banned, I ensured a higher turnout than usual, despite HALF of the normal smashers being absent due to work/school.

Is anyone "anti-ban" going to even address my post?

With all the "MK is too good!" trend here and there, it's only natural that a lot of people would attend your tourney, more than normal (the MK haters would turn up because they'd still feel they had a chance at victory, even if they didn't even have nearly enough skill to end up top 10 last time when MK was around).

 

[Palpi]

A political debate fueled by propaganda isn't what we need here lol.

Epic post inui. (minus the first part haha)

 

[Melomaniacal]

Inui, remind me to never, ever, ever bring up politics with you.
I don't think we can be more opposite xD

But that's not for this thread. MK is not broken, I don't see how you can even argue that he is in any respect.

 

[Overswarm]

I agree with Bush's presidency and think Obama is a horrible failure already. Nuking Hiroshima and Nagasaki was entirely necessary. We were dealing with extremists. The fact that they kept fighting after one bomb proves how extreme and insane they were. It took two to finally make them give up. You should probably educate yourself instead of being a liberal brainwashed by the media.

Just to give you a lesson in history and culture, there are several intelligence documents that have since been revealed that showed Japan could not keep up an attack and would inevitably surrender. The showing of the nuclear bomb wasn't to deter the Japanese; it was to deter FUTURE enemies. The japanese were already defeated, and we knew it. The whole "deter future enemies" thing started the Cold War, so it didn't work out too well.

As for them being "extreme" and "insane", their refusal to admit defeat wasn't because they believed they could still win or even that they could still fight. It was a matter of pride and honor. The Japanese weren't crazy.

Just FYI.

 

[Dekar173]

I can't wait to take $20 from you at Genesis Inui

Republitard much?
http://www.mediabistro.com/fishbowlLA/original/rush_limbaugh_0213.jpg
Is this guy your idol?

The mere fact that Obama got into office was a success on America's part. The entire world was mapped as Blue for this election. Then again, I'm not going to argue against someone who probably doesn't even know what cryptography is, nvm OS covered it.

As has been stated by others, though, this isn't a political debate, this is a debate on whether MK is detrimental to the overall metagame of Brawl or not. He is, which is a fact, and as such will eventually be banned.

What'd you place at WHOBO again, top player? How much money did you lose in MMs again, top player?

You speak of yourself so often that it's become a boring subject. Yes, you're self-revered and the self-proclaimed best smasher in the universe. Now move aside so less narcissistic people can post up some (hopefully) meaningful information.

My e-peen is not only fatter, but also much longer than yours, and I really wish you would have accepted a MM at WHOBO so I could have shut your scrub *** up for good while we were both in Houston. I wouldn't be angry at all at the fact that you dodged me there, had you not RIGHT AFTER accepted (and lost) that MM to Ruddy.



Tell me people, of all of you MK mains, how many of you would actually quit Brawl just because your main (who you most likely weren't maining at the beginning of Brawl's metagame) was banned?

 

[thrillagorilla]

But that's not for this thread. MK is not broken, I don't see how you can even argue that he is in any respect.

Who exactly is arguing that? Who was that in response to? I didn't see anyone claim that on this page. I've seen it elsewhere. I didn't agree with it when I saw it then and I don't agree with it now. Most people who know what they are debating don't claim that for the pro-ban's main platform, so please stop accusing them of doing so.

Edit: Just in case... This statement is in agreement with Melomaniacal if I am reading it correctly.

@Inui: You didn't say whether or not Eyada's criteria was debunked in the BR. If you haven't debunked it, then how can you disagree? I don't understand.

@AA: Did you post your thoughts in the BR discussion? If so, would you mind re-posting here? If not, no worries. I don't want to rush you, I'm just curious. If nothing comes of this thread other than worthy ban criteria to deter more situations like this one, I'll be happy.

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

:flame:
Overswarm, is that really why they did it? All of my teachers taught me (and using this on my essay was probably what got me a 600 on the writing section of the SATS) that by the time the Japanese surrendered, there would have been more killed by invading them and trying to end it that way than by using the Atomic Bomb to ensure an instant win, and that though using the Bomb seemed bad, it actually saved more lives than it killed... a bad, but still vital tactic.
:flame:

 

[Inui]

I can't wait to take $20 from you at Genesis Inui

I don't know if I'll be able to stand your presense for such a meager amount of money. Care to go higher? $50?

What'd you place at WHOBO again, top player? How much money did you lose in MMs again, top player?

17th due to suicides and a terrible choice against Hylian. Lain got 33rd or 25th, he's 2nd in Midwest. I'm pretty sure Gnes, Fliphop, Roy_R, Santi, Le_Thien, and other top players did extremely bad compared to what's expected of them. Stuff like that happens, and top players move on and **** other events, which I did in NJ.

I profited overall in MMs while in TX, and I won both doubles events.

You denying that I'm a top player doesn't really matter. You're obviously biased because you don't like me. Overall results say I'm a top player, so oh well. Who are you, exactly? Certainly not a top player or a famed host.

You speak of yourself so often that it's become a boring subject. Yes, you're self-revered and the self-proclaimed best smasher in the universe. Now move aside so less narcissistic people can post up some (hopefully) meaningful information.

I posted perfectly meaninful information. You're just too biased. You see who posted it, and that's all that mattered to you.

My e-peen is not only fatter, but also much longer than yours, and I really wish you would have accepted a MM at WHOBO so I could have shut your scrub *** up for good while we were both in Houston. I wouldn't be angry at all at the fact that you dodged me there, had you not RIGHT AFTER accepted (and lost) that MM to Ruddy.

Your e-peen is tiny. Look at my status here and my status as a player and a host. Then look at yours. I'm a powerful person in the Fire Emblem communities and famous around there as well. Do you not even know what an e-peen is?

Ah, yes, the famed MM with that Fox player kid that I accepted knowing 100% I'd lose because I wanted to go Snake in order to learn a match-up. This truly proves that I am terrible!

I don't like doing MMs or even playing Brawl friendlies much. I don't like you, so I don't want to sit down next to you and play you. You aren't someone important. You're not someone I can learn from. I sat down and played with people like Mew2King and Infinity because I like them and can learn from them, but such is not the case with you.

It sounds like you're butt-hurt over a top player you dislike refusing to play you.

Get over it. It's not your God-given right to play me or anyone else. I have a right to refuse, and I will refuse to play a random player I don't like.

Tell me people, of all of you MK mains, how many of you would actually quit Brawl just because your main (who you most likely weren't maining at the beginning of Brawl's metagame) was banned?

Who cares? I'm sure plenty of MK mains will keep playing, but they will be crippled initially or permamently. I want to main Snake and Wario, so I don't care too much personally about the MK ban. I just strongly disagree with banning MK because I think it's a scrub decision.

 

[Furbs]

clearly if someone doesn't like inui (which i dont blame)

they're obviously biased

perfect logic amirite?

 

[Kewkky]

Who cares? I'm sure plenty of MK mains will keep playing, but they will be crippled initially or permamently. I want to main Snake and Wario, so I don't care too much personally about the MK ban. I just strongly disagree with banning MK because I think it's a scrub decision.

I feel the same way as you in that point, 100%. To me, the ban would mean one less obstacle in the tourneys I'll be going to, since I couldn't care less about using him... I just don't want MK banned because he makes the game more fun for me when I fight him, people can learn how to fight him if theyREALLY want to beat him, and he doesn't fall under the "bannable" category IMO... Pro-bans just want you to feed them common sense by chewing up their food and giving it to them in spoonfuls, rather than giving them the whole steak, a fork and a knife.
And apparently, I'm not the only one.

 

[kr3wman]

Your e-peen is tiny. Look at my status here and my status as a player and a host. Then look at yours. I'm a powerful person in the Fire Emblem communities and famous around there as well. Do you not even know what an e-peen is?

You say that as if it's good or something.

 

[Inui]

clearly if someone doesn't like inui (which i dont blame)

they're obviously biased

perfect logic amirite?

Saying someone's points aren't valid based on who they are is indeed bias. That's what Dekar did, because what I posted was most certainly legit.

In fact, I vaguely mentioned some things going on in the SBR in order to let people know what was going on. That should ease some hearts around here, lol.

You say that as if it's good or something.

Maybe it is. I just wanted to prove someone wrong.

 

[Master Raven]

Tell me people, of all of you MK mains, how many of you would actually quit Brawl just because your main (who you most likely weren't maining at the beginning of Brawl's metagame) was banned?

I've mained MK since the beginning.

As for the former, no, I wouldn't quit.

 

[|RK|]

I'm typing on a Wii, so I'll make this quick: Dekar, your points and flaming are laughable. You really should use logic rather than bias. Can you provide an actual reason that Meta-Knight should be banned?

And both you and Inui should attempt to keep this civil and on topic. Inui is a top professional. He is in the SBR. Yes his opinion does matter so long as logic is involved. Remember that. And when it happens that you, Dekar, speak of the SBR and Inui separately, remember that he is part of the SBR. Please be civil to one another. Thank you.

 

[Cirno]

are you just trying to support what i said? look at how many people said that they counterpick, then look at those who say they CP with MK. lolz.

Why do I have to be supporting or arguing against anything?

I just thought it would be an interesting thread for you to look at.




If you feel it supports the idea that we depend on a counterpick system, then I guess that's more ammo for your future arguments. I personally feel that if we did depend on it, you wouldn't even see hardly as many disadvantaged matchups, because instead of going up against 60:40s, 65:35s, and 70:30s ( let alone winning them) people would just counter immediately.

I dunno, maybe I'm putting too much faith in player skill. I keep telling myself that if I'm a better player this match, I will win, especially if the odds aren't stacked against me like Fox v Pika.

But if skill really has such a minimal effect on our matches, isn't it more like rock,paper scissors than a fighting game?

It's not that he's the best. It's that he weakens the required skill level and overcentralizes the metagame.

Weren't people crying the same thing about G&W being to easy?

And before every other post had " You can win with MK by just spamming D-smash."

There were post saying "You can win with Snake by spamming f-tilt."

If he's overcentralizing, please explain how.
He is the best, we know that, his worst matchup is even, we've got that. He's obviously the best choice if you play to win, that's a given.

But so was Yun.

The only person who has even mentioned how you could consider this is different was Praxis, but when it comes down to simplicities like the points people are arguing(no reason to use any other character), and with the solid agreement that MK is beatable why is it a problem for Brawl but not for SF3rd Strike?

The latter is obvious and has been gone over literally a thousand times.

If it was that obvious there wouldn't be any discussion.

His worst matchup (character or stage) is even.

Characters is debated. Even is winnable, which will show the better player, which is what we should be aiming for anyway.

MK doesn't have disadvantaged stages, but he does have stages where he is not as good on.
Wario also shares this trait.

He has several advantageous matchups.

So does Marth, with his only bad matchups being MK himself, DDD (which some people argue), and Snake .

No other character shares this property.

In Brawl.

It's currently happening as well in the street fighter scene as well.
With much less complaining however.

Thus, the obvious strategy is to main MK, which has been increasingly adopted by top level players.

The obvious best strategy in any competitive game is to main the best character.

In Brawl, SF:3rd Strike, and SF4, however the best characters just happened to have even matchups at worst.

And yes, top level players tier *****. This is nothing new.
Often it's the top level players that end up making the characters place where they do on the tier list.

Becoming proficient with any other two or more characters requires more skill than becoming profieint with Metaknight.

Should using two characters be easier than using one?

o_o

Thus, MK in the metagame is decreasing the skill required to place highly.

The best characters/options in a game often share the trait of ease in doing whatever it is required in the game to win.

If it took an extreme amount of skill compared to the other characters/options to use effectively, it wouldn't be the best. This is why even though in many games a certain character may have an incredible option against every other character(often an infinite) they do not end up being the best because of the amount of skill it takes to perform the option.

If DDD had that infinite on every character he would obviously become the best through the ease of getting his grabs, and continuing the process. Where as ICs who do have this option on every character, have short grab range and can be separated easily in most situations.

Look at a high level SF4 match with Sagat and tell me you can't emulate it.

My Melee Roy which I played from day 1 always had problems against Marth. Falco, even though he's disadvantaged did INCREDIBLY better.

Most people can pick up Cervantes from SC3 and do better than friends who have had the game since it came out (and not played competitively). And in Competition, he does outstanding for the amount of skill you need to perform his grab combos.


But when it comes down to equal skill, the better player each match will more often than not win.

MK isn't doing anything new in this game that hasn't been done for decades upon decades already.

If metaknight didn't exist, M2K would be forced to learn a secondary for his D3's Falco matchup, or be so good with D3 that he can overcome the disadvantage. This takes more skill than being good with Metaknihgt.

And learning Yoshi and winning with him takes more skill than every tier above D.

Learning every character so you can counter with each character's worst matchup takes even more skill !

Why is this relevant?

At the highest levels of play it's more player vs player than anything, and that's where skill should really matter to a competitive scene.

This game is based around the counterpick system.

Many people would disagree with there, sir.
Mainly because if you base any type competition around a counterpick system. It essentially becomes Rock, Paper, Scissors.

The counterpick system used in competitive gaming is, has, and always will be a support system to the tournament scene.

Even in a game with a fully function counterpick system like in Melee you can see there is no dependence on it or base around it.

Melee Fox would be much better off learning Sheik so he is able to deal with Marth.
But he doesn't have to and in most cases of top players-- simply won't.

On top of this, players that want to win can, have, and will begin to slowly switch to MK simply because there is NO REASON for anybody that's goal is to win to use any character other than one that has no bad matchups.

Why would this change if MK was disadvantaged to Snake?

There would still be NO REASON for anybody that plays to win to use any character other than one that has no more than one bad matchup.

Hell, if MK is banned Marth will have one bad matchup and one debateable (DDD).

There would be NO REASON for anybody to use any other character than him if they are playing to win.

Going completely on matchup numbers, we can squeeze Wario in there and there'd be NO REASON to play anyone other than these two if we want to win.

This means they don't have to work as nearly as hard as they would keeping up with two characters (or just using one and putting a lot of time into learning/studying bad matchups).

If you're playing to win, you should be learning all of your matchups anyway.

OS' claim to losing to a Sonic with his MK was that he didn't know the matchup.
Maining MK takes just as much time and studying matchups to analyze why the matchup numbers are the way they are, what options he can usually use that he can't as freely in this match (Shuttle Loop vs ZSS or Diddy can very easily end in a spike for him if he does not know the matchup)

This is the same process characters with a bad matchup take, seeing why the numbers are what they are, what can't I usually use that I could against a character like Ganon, or what is it I have against Diddy (for Olimar) that makes this in my favor where it wouldn't be against Kirby.

Ofcourse the best character in the game isn't going to work nearly as hard as any other character. Isn't that a given?

 

[aeghrur]

No offense Inui, but I didn't ask if the FSBR agreed or not, but rather, has it been debunked yet, like thrilla said.
So, anyone debunked Eyada's ban criteria yet?
If not, where are the places that the FSBR believes are illogical?

 

[Twin_Scimitar]

@Inui: You didn't say whether or not Eyada's criteria was debunked in the BR. If you haven't debunked it, then how can you disagree? I don't understand.

Hey Inui, I realize you have your hands full arguing with people etc., but I was hoping you could clear this up. Or even let us know what specifically is the problem the sbr has with it. It would be awesome to at least end up with ban criteria that we can apply in the future.

Jeez quite a few disgruntled people on smash boards right now.

Edit: Apparently I'm not alone in seconding Thrillagorilla's request, lol my bad.

 

[Dekar173]

He's not too likable, online or in person. :D

$50 it is.

"17th due to suicides and a terrible choice against Hylian. Lain got 33rd or 25th, he's 2nd in Midwest. I'm pretty sure Gnes, Fliphop, Roy_R, Santi, Le_Thien, and other top players did extremely bad compared to what's expected of them. Stuff like that happens, and top players move on and **** other events, which I did in NJ."

Does your name happen to be John?

"Ah, yes, the famed MM with that Fox player kid that I accepted knowing 100% I'd lose because I wanted to go Snake in order to learn a match-up. This truly proves that I am terrible!"

You knew you would lose because he's a better player than you, plain and simple.


Another question I'd like to address to everyone: if you were dead certain that you'd crush someone in a game of Smash, would you really turn down a $10 MM?

Methinks someone was a scared little newb hoping to take money from Ruddy (but actually got stomped).


Anyway, I've already posted concerning the ban and the fact that MK (when played properly) makes MANY characters unviable.

Name the best mains for each character, and I'll name several MK mains who they couldn't possibly beat in tourney. In fact, I'll do it before you do:

M2K, Dojo, Tyrant.

You can tell me they're hands down better than everyone else at the game in its entirety, but I honestly don't think so. It is merely the character they all use that pushes them further than everyone else, coupled with their skill. I'm not downplaying how good they are, I'm stating my unbiased opinion. To my knowledge, M2K hasn't lost a single big tourney since his mastery of MK. The same can not be said of when he mained D3.

Lol @ Inui arguing over e-peen using Fire Emblem as his way of establishing supremacy. I played CS professionally longer than you've even known what the internet was cutie (this is the first and last time you'll ever be called cutie, on the internet or irl, so you may want to sig this John).

 

[thrillagorilla]

No offense Inui, but I didn't ask if the FSBR agreed or not, but rather, has it been debunked yet, like thrilla said.
So, anyone debunked Eyada's ban criteria yet?
If not, where are the places that the FSBR believes are illogical?

Thank you for asking again. I was about to re-post myself. If nothing else other than solid ban criteria come out of this discussion, I'll be happy.

@Cirno: Did you have a look at the links I gave you yet? I'd like to continue our discussion. Also, you said earlier that Lucario also breaks intrinsic priority rules just like Metaknight. I just clanked with all of his grounded move-set in testing, so you were wrong about that.

Edit: @Twin_Scimitar: Didn't see you had posted, didn't mean to ignore you. Sorry. And yeah, people are getting a little too emotionally involved methinks...

 

[kr3wman]

this is the first and last time you'll ever be called cutie, on the internet or irl, so you may want to sig this John).

I lol'ed.

I would sig it if all the space wasn't already taken.

 

[thrillagorilla]

I read the text in your sig, kr3wman. It is by far the most entertaining thing I've seen all day.

 

[sMexy-Blu]

Yes, I am a scrub.

Thats so LOL.

 

[Inui]

He's not too likable, online or in person. :D

$50 it is.

Ok, sounds good to me.

You knew you would lose because he's a better player than you, plain and simple.

Yup, he's ranked 4th in a very powerful state, wins tournaments, dominates in doubles at 100% of the tournaments he enters, takes out huge names a lot...

Oh, wait, no. You're just a biased moron.

Another question I'd like to address to everyone: if you were dead certain that you'd crush someone in a game of Smash, would you really turn down a $10 MM?

Methinks someone was a scared little newb hoping to take money from Ruddy (but actually got stomped).

Yup. I do not like you. If I had to sit next to you for longer than a minute, violence could possibly occur. I loathe you. I do not want to be near you. $10 isn't enough to make me want to be near you.

Ruddy barely won, and I did indeed go into that MM knowing I'd lose. I played him earlier. I knew he was a good Fox.

Hey Inui, I realize you have your hands full arguing with people etc., but I was hoping you could clear this up. Or even let us know what specifically is the problem the sbr has with it. It would be awesome to at least end up with ban criteria that we can apply in the future.

I'm not allowed to leak specifics. I can say that we don't agree with what he said about skill and diversity being directly linked in the way he said they were.

 

[Master Raven]

. To my knowledge, M2K hasn't lost a single big tourney since his mastery of MK. The same can not be said of when he mained D3.

What tournies did he lose in as DDD? The MK-ban tourney where he took 4th doesn't count since top 4 decided to split and not play out.

 

[Cirno]

Another question I'd like to address to everyone: if you were dead certain that you'd crush someone in a game of Smash, would you really turn down a $10 MM?

A lot of people will say it's scrubbish, but it depends on the opponent.
I like playing Smash the way the competitive community has shaped it, and if I can't have fun playing against someone I won't

If I wanted to do something I didn't like for money I'd get another job instead of spending my free time on competitive gaming since the money is often better and always guaranteed.

Anyway, I've already posted concerning the ban and the fact that MK (when played properly) makes MANY characters unviable.

This can be said for many characters though, most notably ICs.

 

[AvaricePanda]

Dekar, your posts seemed to be based on bias and basically no facts. You said, "MK is detrimental to Brawl's metagame," then backed it up with ABSOLUTELY NO FACTS OR STATEMENTS.

Also, I'm tired of having to post something about MK not breaking the CP system like every time I post here.

Bad Stages:

What makes a stage bad for a certain character, honestly? A LOT of characters really don't have bad stages, just stages that aren't as good as the rest. For Meta Knight, this is Final Destination. For Diddy, this is Rainbow Cruise for some matchups and Brinstar for some matchups. For Wario, this is Final Destination even though he really isn't bad on this stage, just worse (people say Mansion, but that really shouldn't be legal). For Snake, it's Rainbow Cruise, but this can easily be stage banned and he doesn't have to worry.

As I've said countless other times, MK doesn't break the stage CP system because he has no bad stages. A lot of character have no bad stages, or they only have one bad stage, in which case they can ban it. Does this mean that each of these characters, like Snake, Wario, and Diddy, break the stage CP system too? Most people will say no, but for whatever reason say yes to MK.

Bad matchups:

Matchup numbers, as aforementioned, are often very subjective things. Consider this dilemna:

In the Diddy vs. Marth match-up, Marth's offstage game against Diddy is very good. Marth has the options to either gimp Diddy if he tries to use rocket barrels, or cover most of Diddy's get-up options from the ledge if the Marth can't get the gimp (if the Diddy has a banana in hand, he has more options to get up). It's been widely accepted that Marth has a clear advantage offstage against Diddy.

Question: How much does it matter?

Some may argue that this is extremely detrimental to Diddy's game, and would say that because Marth has the tools to get Diddy offstage, this makes the matchup another 5-or-however points in Marth's favor. Some may argue that Diddy has the tools to stay onstage and recover high so that he doesn't have to worry about getting gimped, and they would argue that it doesn't affect the matchup that much.

Things like these can't be unanimously accepted. To some, 60-40 is a huge disadvantage, while to others it's only notable or slight. Things like this mean that matchup numbers are really subjective and only give a rough basis as to how the matchup is, and at the highest levels of play, even or near even matchups are a test of skill.

Now how does this pertain to MK?

People complain that MK has no counters (even though in the "How many of you actually CP Characters?" thread, not many people admitted that they did). However, is this true? And do some of the other characters really have counters, or just slightly disadvantageous matchups? And do these matchups have the potential to improve?

Snake, Wario, and Diddy are often agreed to be the closest matchups to MK. While I can't speak for Snake or Wario, the majority of the Diddy boards have agreed that MK has a slight advantage in the matchup. Now, slight advantage means 55-45 to some, 52-48 to others, 58-42 to others...but generally at top levels of play, it's been agreed that it's a contest of skill. Not only that, but many either believe or have recognized AlphaZealot's stance on the matchup...

Overall its slightly in MK's favor. However I still firmly believe with more time it will become Diddy's favor. There are so many things that still need to be worked into my game for me to even think I'm close to mastering the character, not the least of which are: single nana locks, non-dash attack picks up, instant throws, shield bouncing, using more than just the F-tilt, etc etc. Despite lacking of all these things I'm still the best Diddy Kong in the MW and the only MK I probably can't beat is Judge, who I have yet to play (and think I would stand a good chance to win at least a game off of him).

Essentially, I have tons of room to improve with Diddy Kong and I am considered close to the top of Diddy's current metagame.
How much more room do Meta Knights have to improve at the top of MK's metagame? What things are have been discovered recently that makes MK better? What type of things can MK do that are limited in a players execution/technical skill like Diddy's nana lock (answer, everything MK does is easy to perform, so there isn't the same learning curves as Diddy).

Diddy is a character that went from 20th, to 14th, to 11th, to 10th, to 7th, to 7th, to 5th, and now currently 4th on Ankoku's list. He is a character that still few people play. He has far more potential than anyone is utilizing. He is also been moving on a curve up the ranks of characters, and that curve has yet to stabilize (Diddy is just a stones throw away from third on Ankoku's list). To assume we know anything about Diddy's potential, when even just 3-6 months ago many thought Diddy had peaked, would be naive.

I've seen posts like this through a lot of boards about the MK matchup; I've even seen a blog by Atomsk on AiB about him saying that the D3 vs. MK matchup could be close to even, you just have to change your playstyle from normal. What it all basically means though, is that some of the top players of all of these characters believe that the matchup is even or slightly in their character's favour.

The fact that he has even matchups should be a firm enough reason to not ban him, but not only is there room to improve with some of these matchups, but as of now they can be arguably against his favour at the top levels of play.

edit: I think it's clearly obvious that M2K has invested a hell of a lot more time in his MK than he ever has on his D3 against top players in the current metagame. The fact that he even split for first on the MK banned tournament with a character he didn't use nearly as much is a huge testament to his skill.

 

[Yuna]

Logical stuff.

Many of us (like, say, I) have been saying the exact same things since the very first "Ban MK NAO!!!"-thread. Surprisingly enough, logic and facts didn't matter then and they probably still do not matter much for the pro-ban side.


Also, this Dekar vs. Inui nonsense is laughable. Take it to PM, folks. This is clearly off-topic on such a level it might warrant warnings and/or infractions. Also, Bush is an idiot.

 

[Punishment Divine]

Who is Dekar? And why is he bashing Lucas even though he probably has never met him before?

Inui is an incredibly cool person irl and online if you actually know him. Although you don't matter, because I've never even heard of you, I will set out to prove you wrong: Inui actually knows what he's talking about/ No matter how elitist he may come across he backs up a majority of it WITH FACTS.

You're simply making personal attacks on him, which is not standard for debate. And why would you diss his knowledge of FE? He's a top FE debater...

Wow. Smash noobs annoy me so much. I really hope I get to see that MM, because you're probably going to get your **** wrecked

 

[Kewkky]

flame made to look like pro-ban arguments

Shut up. If you have nothing to say, then don't say anything at all. What may sound to you like the perfect answer to everything, is just an opinion-based truth that covers only PART of what's been (and is being) discussed.

Plus, we don't care about what you make out Inui to be. What the hell does that have to do with the topic?

 

[aeghrur]

A lot of people will say it's scrubbish, but it depends on the opponent.
I like playing Smash the way the competitive community has shaped it, and if I can't have fun playing against someone I won't

Cool.

If I wanted to do something I didn't like for money I'd get another job instead of spending my free time on competitive gaming since the money is often better and always guaranteed.

Job money isn't guaranteed if you can't find a job in this economy.

 

[kr3wman]

Plus, we don't care about what you make out Inui to be. What the hell does that have to do with the topic?

Inui cares otherwise he wouldn't respond to him and encourage him to take it further.

Basic internet stuff.