Should Metaknight be Banned? ***Take 3***

[thrillagorilla]

That's Eyada's magical ban criteria? I refuted that 20 or 30 pages back, using his own logic against him no less. I'll see if I can dig it up.

Lol, I guess the two or three people who responded to you didn't send you the PM you requested. Oh well, I'm sure you'll see it when you find it.

Someone: MK renders X amount of characters unviable!
Me: Please name them.

This is not a flame. This wasn't what I was referring to.

From here, there are two paths.
Path of the willfully stupid/ignorant/whatever: Refuse to acknowledge one was wrong to begin with and move on as if nothing happened.
Path of the logical/intelligent/whatever: Realize one was wrong and needs more education on the subject before debating it further and make a tactical (if temporary) retreat.

This is the kind of stuff I was referring to. I apologize, I shouldn't have used the term flame. Most people are aware of your stance on the subject. You are attempting to "shoot them down" before they might have a chance to speak. What is worse is that you have already assumed you are right, and assuming makes an *** out of you and me. All you are doing is baiting emotional responses with these kinds of posts. That has nothing to do with logic. If you were to go about this in even a half-calm manner, I might even be willing to discuss things with you. You would probably even convince me you were right. As it stands right now, all I see is someone getting emotional gratification out of something as idiotic as this topic.

 

[Yuna]

BTW, while browsing back to find my initial reply to Eyada's magical ban criteria, I found a few attempts to refute the "Popularity"-argument.

One went like this: "One of the biggest tournies ever had a top placing like this: MK, MK, MK, MK, Snake, MK, MK".

Congratulations. You just proved that he's the best character in the game and that many of the best players in the world have started using him. He's popular. Why is he popular? Because he's good. No one ever said anything different.

However, you cannot look at a results list and go "Ban!" because many of the Top 5 spots went to MK. Because that is popularity. If most good players are flocking to MK, it's only logical that MK would take most top spots.

Now prove how MK is too good and I'll support your ban. If MK is "too good" and so game-breaking, how come he's not taking every single Top 10 spot, winning every single tournament and doing so by such a margin only a fool would dream of maining anyone besides MK?

 

[Atomsk_92]

I like beating MKs with DDD XD

 

[Mew2King]

clearly if someone doesn't like inui (which i dont blame)

they're obviously biased

perfect logic amirite?

for the most part, or most of the time, yes

@Atomsk- Is NJ going to **** me? That's good to hear. I'll have friends around to help enforce you two to pay up when the time comes

he's not going to have to pay up anything cuz he's going to win

also diddy vs mk is at least even as far as neutrals are concerned

 

[AvaricePanda]

@Dekar, you not only again dodged how MK makes any character unviable, you completely ignored P1 and I's arguments about banana control. I'd appreciate it if you responded to every argument and actually answered all of the questions asked.

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

:flame:
OMG M2K IS HERE! Everyone, bow your heads before he cuts them off! YOU IN THE BACK, BOW YOUR HEAD ****IT!

But seriously, how are you doing, Sir?

And Avarice, isn't it easier to simply dodge something than to try to block and take it head on?
:flame:

 

[Atomsk_92]

LOL at everyone hating on Inui for horrible reasons

 

[Count]

"btw, i'm not a virgin"

Best end to a post..ever!

inui represent conservative smash players at apex, thx ^_^

/end troll

 

[Dark.Pch]

I like beating MKs with DDD XD

I like doing it with Peach. The joy of a mid tier beating his azz. so much damm win.

 

[Yuna]

I'd appreciate it if you did this again sometime soon. You're pretty. <3

Ryanair, Europe's largest low fares airline, will start flying from three European airports to various U.S. airports starting this November. One of these three European airports happens to be Stockholm Skavsta (a.k.a. where I live).

Incidentally, I plan on making another trip to the U.S. sometime after November 2009. Also, I am still very pretty.

Lol, I guess the two or three people who responded to you didn't send you the PM you requested. Oh well, I'm sure you'll see it when you find it.

And what, pray tell, would these PMs say?

This is the kind of stuff I was referring to. I apologize, I shouldn't have used the term flame. Most people are aware of your stance on the subject. You are attempting to "shoot them down" before they might have a chance to speak. What is worse is that you have already assumed you are right, and assuming makes an *** out of you and me. All you are doing is baiting emotional responses with these kinds of posts. That has nothing to do with logic. If you were to go about this in even a half-calm manner, I might even be willing to discuss things with you. You would probably even convince me you were right. As it stands right now, all I see is someone getting emotional gratification out of something as idiotic as this topic.

People who cannot see reason and realize that they were wrong and either admit to it and/or beat a temporary retreat are lost causes and not worth my time.

Because if you're a good debater/logical human being, you will not jump into a debate such as this one without first being armed with the facts.

If you think are armed with the facts but are proven wrong in a totally non-flaming or "violant" manner such as the innocuous demand that you prove your own statement, a.k.a. "Which characters does MK render unviable?" as a response to your "MK renders tons of chracters unviable"-comment, the smart and logical thing would be admit to being wrong and possibly retreat strategically until you have read up on the subject more because obviously one of your main arguments were proven to be total baloney.

I don't see how you could possibly have a problem with me refuting arguments in a completely civil manner such as simply asking people to support their own statements and arguments using completely neutral and civil language.

Only idiots would response with emotionally charged non-answers because they either lack self-control or realize they cannot possibly win the debate and therefore refuse to actually continue said debate and instead try to derail it. And none of this would be my fault.

I cannot be blamed for the idiocy of others. If you're going to blame someone besides the idiots themselves, blame their parents and/or whichever deity(/-ies) you happen to worship.


Regarding Eyada's ban criteria:
I give up. The same bug that gives this thread two extra pages which are impossible to access is probably also screwing up with the "Find post"-function. I'm trying to access the post in which I replied to Eyada using the "Find all posts by Yuna"-function but each time I get warped to a completely different page.

I'll try to reconstruct my reply from scratch later.

I like doing it with Peach. The joy of a mid tier beating his azz. so much damm win.

Tiers are meaningless if the match-up favors the lower placed character on the list (or it's pretty even). Individual skill > Individual match-ups > Tiers >>>>>> George W. Bush.

 

[Atomsk_92]

I am still very pretty.

I apparently am not XD




lol XD

 

[Dekar173]

Lol, this is dumb. You're comparing a bad player to a good player and then you're saying that the good player will control the bananas. Obviously, but that's not the deciding factor in a matchup. How about we talk about a good Diddy main who plays against a good Diddy that mains Mario, NOW who do you think will control the bananas more?

MK just simply doesn't have the tools to utilize them as well as diddy. He can use them somewhat well, but nowhere near diddy, no character can do that.

Diddy's match-ups aren't ONLY about bananas. From what you state, whoever uses bananas better, wins. Unfortunately for Diddy mains, this isn't the case.

 

[Inui]

Nothing is more satisfying than winning with Ganondorf...

@Count: <3

@Mew2King: You don't think I'll beat Dekar too?

 

[sMexy-Blu]

Who the hell started that political debate... I though we were discussing MK not politics.

 

[Yuna]

Diddy's match-ups aren't ONLY about bananas. From what you state, whoever uses bananas better, wins. Unfortunately for Diddy mains, this isn't the case.

And how, pray tell, does Diddy lose so hugely to MK if bananas are out of the picture? Also, bananas happen to be a pretty huge part of Diddy's metagame.

 

[swordgard]

I give up.

Yeah your right, give up, MK IS broken.


No but seriously, i am getting tired of this discussion. I am pro-ban for various reasons which i dont feel like explaining, but i'm getting really tired of people on the pro-ban side often giving either 1 liners or misreading/taking out of context stuff just to try and refute anti-ban like i just did. Lets make this clear, MK is not broken as in that he makes players 10x better than what they are. Pro-ban should make their arguments clearer, and more structured. Follow Thrillagorilla's way of arguing. Or yuna's, but only if you can bring facts to support what you say.


Finally, god****it, wtf does everyone has agaisnt inui. And dekarr, seriously, i hope you enjoy losing 100$ in 2 MMs, itl be costy for 4 games(yes, they will 2-0 you).

 

[Atomsk_92]

We don't need to think that you will

because we all know that you will

 

[sMexy-Blu]

This thret needs moar GAN0N

 

[Yuna]

I am pro-ban [...]. Pro-ban should make their arguments clearer, and more structured. Follow Thrillagorilla's way of arguing. Or yuna's, but only if you can bring facts to support what you say.

(I'm assuming that you're not accusing me of not bringing facts to supports what I say myself)

What, a pro-banner telling other pro-banners to start arguing the way I argue? Surely this must be a sign of the apocalypse!

 

[Mew2King]

you'll prolly both beat/**** him but I haven't been keeping up, i merely skimmed the last page really fast

 

[ADHD]

Diddy beats mk on all neutrals and ps1 55-45 That's IMO

 

[Atomsk_92]

DDD beats MK on BF Smashville Frigate and Yoshi's 55-45 That's IMO

 

[Dekar173]

Pretty confident, fellas.

I take it the wii we'll be playing on with have anti-trip installed, non?

@Yuna- If ADHD can't beat M2K WITH bananas how do you expect him to do so without them? We all agree that ADHD is the pinnacle of Diddy's metagame, correct? If the best of the Diddy's can't beat the best of the MK's with his bread and butter tools, what chance does he have without them?

@P1- How is Diddy so much better at use of bananas than MK? Last time I checked, z-dropping a banana into MKs Shuttle Loop isn't an instant gimp on the MK, (boy do I wish it was) the opposite can not be said of Diddy's recovery. The instant those barrels are dislodged with a banana or even a weak aerial and Diddy's not extremely close to the ledge, he's gimped.

As for all of this hatred and elitism against poor little Abq. NM; think whatever you may of me judging solely by where I live, it doesn't matter. In the end, all that will matter is that you'll be helping to pay for a meal for myself and my friends at Genesis

 

[Atomsk_92]

I'm gonna love the look on your face once you lose 100$ to NJ at Genesis Dekar

 

[Player-1]

Diddy's match-ups aren't ONLY about bananas. From what you state, whoever uses bananas better, wins. Unfortunately for Diddy mains, this isn't the case.

Lol, no I didn't say that. I was responding my argument towards your argument which was based on how if MK utilized the bananas as well as Diddy then he will win, but this isn't likely to happen between 2 evenly match players, one using Diddy and the other using MK simply because Diddy overall has more control over the bananas and the fact that MK simply doesn't have the tools to control the bananas as well as Diddy can. If you want me to go into an in-depth discussion on the MK Vs Diddy matchup then I will, but I wasn't pointing my previous argument toward that.

 

[Yuna]

@Yuna- If ADHD can't beat M2K WITH bananas how do you expect him to do so without them? We all agree that ADHD is the pinnacle of Diddy's metagame, correct? If the best of the Diddy's can't beat the best of the MK's with his bread and butter tools, what chance does he have without them?

Please name the apparently numerous MK players whom ADHD is unable to beat.

 

[Dekar173]

I'm gonna love the look on your face once you lose 100$ to NJ at Genesis Dekar

There's always the possibility that I may lose, but I don't think that will be the case.

@John not being a virgin- I dunno, I've seen what you look like. Date **** much?

 

[Nic64]

?

Iraq/Afghanistan, nuking Hiroshima/Nagasaki, Stem cell research, Gay Rights, Bush's presidency, Federal Reserve, LACK OF separation of Church and State, etc.

There are a lot of mistakes made by "the more educated elite" including the MK issue.

Not banning MK is analogous to nuking Hiroshima lmao

 

[Atomsk_92]

Please name the apparently numerous MK players whom ADHD is unable to beat.

More people should name the list of MK players I'm unable to beat XD

 

[deepseadiva]

Let me set up an imaginary situation, I wanna hear responses.

Apex and Genesis are, again, riddled with MKs in the top 10.

How does that affect your opinion on the possible ban?

 

[thrillagorilla]

People who cannot see reason and realize that they were wrong and either admit to it and/or beat a temporary retreat are lost causes and not worth my time.

Because if you're a good debater/logical human being, you will not jump into a debate such as this one without first being armed with the facts.

It depends. I entered the debate because I didn't know all the facts. Not everyone that posts here is trying to argue one side because they believe that they are correct. I suspended my own judgment and argued pro-ban earlier because I didn't see many questions getting asked that should have been, or questions that at the time weren't getting answered that have now been so.

If you think are armed with the facts but are proven wrong in a totally non-flaming or "violant" manner such as the innocuous demand that you prove your own statement, a.k.a. "Which characters does MK render unviable?" as a response to your "MK renders tons of chracters unviable"-comment, the smart and logical thing would be admit to being wrong and possibly retreat strategically until you have read up on the subject more because obviously one of your main arguments were proven to be total baloney.

I agree with this. I hate to use myself as an example, but I don't want to misrepresent someone else unintentionally. I made an argument earlier in the thread (by suspending my own judgment on the matter) and made an error in language. Nic64 pointed it out and I accepted that the wording of the argument, and possibly the argument itself was incorrect. I haven't been convinced that the over-centralization argument has been "debunked" or the "breaks the cp system" though. I entered this argument to find the facts.

I don't see how you could possibly have a problem with me refuting arguments in a completely civil manner such as simply asking people to support their own statements and arguments using completely neutral and civil language.

I don't.

Edit: I don't have a problem with you doing that. Sorry, should have specified.

Only idiots would response with emotionally charged non-answers because they either lack self-control or realize they cannot possibly win the debate and therefore refuse to actually continue said debate and instead try to derail it. And none of this would be my fault.

I cannot be blamed for the idiocy of others. If you're going to blame someone besides the idiots themselves, blame their parents and/or whichever deity(/-ies) you happen to worship.

lol. You don't have to answer the idiotic posts, you know... Most people that know at least a small amount of the facts will know immediately that such posts are uninformed (ie: OMFG! Metaknight is SO broken. We need to ban him now!).

Regarding Eyada's ban criteria:
I give up. The same bug that gives this thread two extra pages which are impossible to access is probably also screwing up with the "Find post"-function. I'm trying to access the post in which I replied to Eyada using the "Find all posts by Yuna"-function but each time I get warped to a completely different page.

I'll try to reconstruct my reply from scratch later.

I'll help you look, if you don't want to re-create the argument. I can also post the rebuttals. I don't mind taking the time to search.

Tiers are meaningless if the match-up favors the lower placed character on the list (or it's pretty even). Individual skill > Individual match-ups > Tiers >>>>>> George W. Bush.

lol.

 

[Kewkky]

Not banning MK is analogous to nuking Hiroshima lmao

When you put it that way.... Lmfao.

I'm sure Dekar won't show up, paying up entry fee just to lose $100.00 and get flamed/roasted by SWF shouldn't even be considered IMO. And apparently he hasn't heard of NinjaLink if he thinks that Diddy vs MK is hopeless.

 

[Dekar173]

More people should name the list of MK players I'm unable to beat XD

I don't think ADHD or yourself have beaten M2K to date.

NL beat M2K sending him into the loser's bracket because of a momentum defining point in their match (a 0-death gimp due to Diddy's face hump into an almost guaranteed footstool). M2K went on to win the tournament.

 

[TP]

And apparently he hasn't heard of NinjaLink if he thinks that Diddy vs MK is hopeless.

When the year is 2020 and we a younger generation is playing SSB5, people are still gonna be discussing the time NinjaLink beat M2K in a set at a tournament.

 

[Kewkky]

When the year is 2020 and we a younger generation is playing SSB5, people are still gonna be discussing the time NinjaLink beat M2K in a set at a tournament.

Hey, it's still a valid point in SSB3. ;D

 

[Dekar173]

Name one person who hasn't had trouble with the very first time they played against a good Diddy. Then name the person who went on (in the same tourney) to beat said Diddy player in that very same tourney: M2K.

For those who will ignore what was edited into my prior post-

NL beat M2K sending him into the loser's bracket because of a momentum defining point in their match (a 0-death gimp due to Diddy's face hump into an almost guaranteed footstool). M2K went on to win the tournament.

 

[Yuna]

Let me set up an imaginary situation, I wanna hear responses.

Apex and Genesis are, again, riddled with MKs in the top 10.

How does that affect your opinion on the possible ban?

If the metagame has progressed to such a state where MK wins tournaments by such a huge margin (i.e. his match-ups are so very advantageous all-around) no character stands a reasonable chance of beating him at a national U.S. tournament, I will be ready to, as I always have been, support the ban.

If he takes the majority of Top 10 for the same reasons as he's taking them at the moment, I'll go "Meh". While possibly eating pie.

It depends. I entered the debate because I didn't know all the facts. Not everyone that posts here is trying to argue one side because they believe that they are correct.

I wasn't specific enough. I, of course, meant "entering a debate arguing for a side", not merely entering a debate, as in being a part of it, asking questions and such.

I suspended my own judgment and argued pro-ban earlier because I didn't see many questions getting asked that should have been, or questions that at the time weren't getting answered that have now been so.

Asking questions is not the same thing as debating unless the questions themselves are actually debate arguments in the form of questions.

lol. You don't have to answer the idiotic posts, you know... Most people that know at least a small amount of the facts will know immediately that such posts are uninformed (ie: OMFG! Metaknight is SO broken. We need to ban him now!).

I don't even touch the obviously idiotic posts nowadays (because they number the gazillions). But "Meta Knight renders X characters unviable" might look like a valid argument to those who do not know better, which is why I address arguments such as these.

I'll help you look, if you don't want to re-create the argument. I can also post the rebuttals. I don't mind taking the time to search.

Thanks. I gave up after 30 pages.

I don't think ADHD or yourself have beaten M2K to date.

I don't think a jillion people, many of which are the very best in the world with their mains, have beaten M2K's Marth in Melee to date (since he started becoming really good with Marth, that is) either. Melee Marth is le brokens, Melee Marth needs bans NAO?

Also, I didn't know we were talking about players now instead of characters. So this is how we measure whether or not a character is capable of winning against Meta Knight, whether or not someone who mains them can beat M2K? Logic!

 

[Atomsk_92]

I don't think ADHD or yourself have beaten M2K to date.

I love how M2K = A list of MKs we can't beat. Its obvious we aren't going to beat a player who is a lot better than us

 

[Player-1]

@P1- How is Diddy so much better at use of bananas than MK? Last time I checked, z-dropping a banana into MKs Shuttle Loop isn't an instant gimp on the MK, (boy do I wish it was) the opposite can not be said of Diddy's recovery. The instant those barrels are dislodged with a banana or even a weak aerial and Diddy's not extremely close to the ledge, he's gimped.

1. MK's Glide. Long glidetoss? Yes. Extends the range of the banana? Yes. Game breaking at all? No. Diddy's glidetoss is perfect for bananas. MK's is easier to see coming, and most of the time it's user you're either far away from MK which you can easily see coming and block it with a shield or something of the sort, or you're a close distance away to MK which he just slides past you unable to do anything really. MK can't banana lock due to his glide toss, he can't combo as well, he can't punish as well, in fact it's probably better to do a dashing banana throw instead, it's even crappy to do a retreating glide toss simply because you can start peanut spamming afterward, lol.

2. His Dash attack. His dash attack is good and is probably one of the best for banana use, but it's still nowhere near Diddy's. Isn't it a 1 frame advantage on Diddy's dash attack and comes out on frame 3 I think, fastest dash attack in the game and simply flows together with the bananas much better than MKs.

3. I've versed some pretty good MKs in my time, some much better than me. But I'm pretty sure not 1 has EVER been able to control BOTH of the bananas for more than a few seconds. It's unlikely that MK will even get 1 banana under his control for more than a few seconds, but BOTH of them? Very unlikely. So scenario: MK has 1 banana in his control, Diddy has 1 banana in his control...who do you think will win this little banana war? 'Nuff said.

4. that z drop thing was stupid, scenario rarely happens and is easy to avoid even once you're in it.

 

[swordgard]

(I'm assuming that you're not accusing me of not bringing facts to supports what I say myself)

What, a pro-banner telling other pro-banners to start arguing the way I argue? Surely this must be a sign of the apocalypse!

See, i have always liked the way you argue. Yes, you are a bit condescending sometimes, but i dont mind. What i do mind is Pro-Ban bringing up random nonsense and bad facts, man strawing and taking out of context quotes. And unlike other people ive seen, you actually admit when you were wrong. Currently, I am pro-ban but not by much. I however, do not even feel like arguing with anti-ban anymore because pro-ban is so badly structured my own supporters would most probably massacre any logical argument i would use with biased opinions and non-facts before you even get a chance to reply. It's the first time im not in full agreement with what you are saying, however id like to know what you think on one thing. Pro-ban has been saying that the lower end of the metagame counts and if MK is overcentralizing there it counts as much as if he is at the top. I argued that if any character is overcentralizing, it only matters at the top of the metagame, aka i wouldnt give a shiz if he dominated 75% of the lower part if no MK broke the top 25%. Do you agree or not? Id like the view of a veteran player on this.

And yeah, dekarr, inui doesnt date ****. Besides the fact that he had legit sex, hes ***** countless players like you before, your not the first nor will you be the last.