Should Metaknight be Banned? **Take 2** (Post-podcast)

[Dark Sonic]

I bet if MK was banned, Sonic would be at least mid tier....

According to tournament rankings, Sonic is already mid tier, but nobody cares about that right?

That doesn't even make any sense. Sonic and just about any other character remains static whether MK is existing or not.

Marth would go up, Snake would go down, Rob would go up, ect.

Basically, characters who do bad against Metaknight, but good or decent (by decent I mean neutral) with the other top tiers would go up. Characters who have counters that fit this would go down because their counters would be seen more frequently.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Care to explain this? It may be just me, but I really don't see how Marth beats MK on Castle Siege. I can't think of any advantages MK has on Marth on that stage.

I don't see it either.

Note what they have in common, Jungle Japes is from Donkey Kong and Castle Siege is from Fire Emblem.

I think it's a "home field advantage", though we all know that the home field means little in terms of actual technical advantage.

 

[Daimonster]

Care to explain this? It may be just me, but I really don't see how Marth beats MK on Castle Siege. I can't think of any advantages MK has on Marth on that stage.

Ok here goes: talking about Castle Siege! Sure, there are basic strengths for Marth on this map against MK. I'll try my best to explain the match relative to the map in detail.

On the first transformation, If marth holds the left side, his f.air covers an insanely large portion of the air and ground in order to gain control. At 0%, a dancing blade string, f.air string or f.throw > sh.+n.air > f.smash will gain marth an edgeguard opportunity against MK. Marth has, a very strong amount of stage control on this transformation.

2nd transformation. Extremely powerful for marth. He has the opportunity to 0-death MK via grab release > f.air on the left and right side. The MK should obviously know of this threat and stay in the air. Whenever Marth is directly underneath the MK, he may abuse MK's lack of air mobility with an array of u.airs and b.airs. These u.airs will constantly pressure the MK throughout this entire transformation. If they aren't, that MK risks getting 1 hit dancing blade > grab release >death.

3rd transformation. Marth should defend the left side (the mole hill) with d.tilt and dancing blade pressure. This transformation being the weakest for marth; makes defending the mole hill a critical objective to the success of this counterpick map. We all know MK's d.tilt and f.tilt out range marths tilts and come out faster. However, because of the mole hill, MK will find himself tilting into non-existant hit boxes. The marth player's d.tilt and f.smash become infinitely more useful. If a MK approaches with his tilts, the marth can space his d.tilt and f.smash for free blows.

once the 3rd transformation is over, rinse and repeat previous pressure tactics for the win.

Also, jungle japes is super strong with DK vs MK because of DK being able to (situationaly) live to 200+% each stock while killing at ~60% with 9 winds, f.smashes etc. He lives at 200+% because his up.b stops all momentum. He is allowed to cancel the momentum and land in the water then recover.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

yeah, japes is dk's best stage. he can stage spike from the stage, his downb covers pretty much all of the mid platform, with proper DI and upb cancel (gdubs new trick works for dk too), i can get my stocks to 290 vs mk, peach, pit, and a few others. his dtilt, low angled ftilt, upb, and cargo dthrow can all combo into clap traps, his 3 spikes make for occasional wtf ko's, and he can stay invincible for a long time with upb ledge cancels. you can also force tech chases into usmash (on the platform, ko's mk in the 110 range on the stage) or fsmash (by the ledge, and japes is just ledges, if the dk knows how to space, he can eat all get up options with a fsmash)

there's more reasons, but dk is the best character on japes (if he's smart enough to camp falco till he hits 40%, cg to clap trap can be bad if he doesn't know how to avoid it). his upb shenanigans allow him to approach anyone, and his dsmash through platforms allows him to ko the people who try his shenanigans via stage spiking them.

EDIT: grabs ko at 60 due to the stage spike, if they tech it, dk gets an fsmash

 

[Master Raven]

wut? You guys misunderstood. I wasn't speaking in terms of just tiers, but the characters' overall capabilities. Sonic isn't gonna suck more or less with MK around.

 

[Justblaze647]

wut? You guys misunderstood. I wasn't speaking in terms of just tiers, but the characters' overall capabilities. Sonic isn't gonna suck more or less with MK around.

I disagree... I think everyone is going to suck a little more with MK around...

...except for MK of course

 

[ShadowLink84]

wut? You guys misunderstood. I wasn't speaking in terms of just tiers, but the characters' overall capabilities. Sonic isn't gonna suck more or less with MK around.

The above is true.
The overall performance of the character does not change simply because one matchup has been removed. All that would change is tournament placing not performance.

 

[Sharky]

Snake picked up a bunch of points this week in the rankings list. This is good. =D

 

[The Milk Monster]

You know what would be sweet?
If people stopped playing Meta as much in fear of him getting banned, and then picked up another character?
Yeah?

 

[Browny]

as of next month, the tourneys i go to are gonna enforce a '1 MK win per set' rule where you can only use MK in a best of 3 set provided you havent won a round with him in that set. Thats the best solution to this 'problem' ive heard in a while.

 

[The Real Inferno]

as of next month, the tourneys i go to are gonna enforce a '1 MK win per set' rule where you can only use MK in a best of 3 set provided you havent won a round with him in that set. Thats the best solution to this 'problem' ive heard in a while.

wtf that's just silly, applying Dave's Stupid Rule to a character

 

[Kirio]

On the first transformation, If marth holds the left side, his f.air covers an insanely large portion of the air and ground in order to gain control. At 0%, a dancing blade string, f.air string or f.throw > sh.+n.air > f.smash will gain marth an edgeguard opportunity against MK. Marth has, a very strong amount of stage control on this transformation.

2nd transformation. Extremely powerful for marth. He has the opportunity to 0-death MK via grab release > f.air on the left and right side. The MK should obviously know of this threat and stay in the air. Whenever Marth is directly underneath the MK, he may abuse MK's lack of air mobility with an array of u.airs and b.airs. These u.airs will constantly pressure the MK throughout this entire transformation. If they aren't, that MK risks getting 1 hit dancing blade > grab release >death.

3rd transformation. Marth should defend the left side (the mole hill) with d.tilt and dancing blade pressure. This transformation being the weakest for marth; makes defending the mole hill a critical objective to the success of this counterpick map. We all know MK's d.tilt and f.tilt out range marths tilts and come out faster. However, because of the mole hill, MK will find himself tilting into non-existant hit boxes. The marth player's d.tilt and f.smash become infinitely more useful. If a MK approaches with his tilts, the marth can space his d.tilt and f.smash for free blows.

Holy theorycrafting. I don't think marth has a large advantage on this stage, if any at all.

One thing you said just made me think very poorly of your post, sorry.

defend the left side (the mole hill) with d.tilt and dancing blade pressure.

I have no idea what defend with pressure means. The best thing I can think up is spamming those, but that can be punished with proper timing..

 

[Nic64]

I bet if MK was banned, Sonic would be at least mid tier....

he should rightfully be mid tier anyway(although the low end of it IMO), the current SBR list was just a first release, bound to be some hilarious mistakes(like olimar in mid tier). no higher than that though, MK is not the only character that destroys sonic and I don't think him being banned would greatly affect him. I honestly don't see the characters that are going to be massively affected by MK being banned, I don't think he single handedly invalidates any character, and many of the characters that he beats are countered just as or more effectively by snake or game and watch, who are also very common(and IMO GAW would become much more common if a widespread MK ban occured, he's the next easiest character to play effectively where you can barely ever play him and still do well)

as of next month, the tourneys i go to are gonna enforce a '1 MK win per set' rule where you can only use MK in a best of 3 set provided you havent won a round with him in that set. Thats the best solution to this 'problem' ive heard in a while.

how is that a solution? if you believe that MK is a problem for the counterpick system, only allowing one win with him still effectively makes him the only logical choice in round one(I no longer believe this to be the case, but even if you do this rule makes no sense)

 

[Master Raven]

GAW would become much more common if a widespread MK ban occured, he's the next easiest character to play effectively where you can barely ever play him and still do well)

lol I remember in my early Brawl days that I picked him up for THE FIRST TIME EVER and I managed to beat this Falco player who always wrecked my ***. >_>

 

[teekay]

lol I remember in my early Brawl days that I picked him up for THE FIRST TIME EVER and I managed to beat this Falco player who always wrecked my ***. >_>

This happens all the time when you pick up a new character against someone who doesn't know the matchup well.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I say we ban G&W.
The logic is infallible.

He is the only character that is truly 2D.
He is also the only character with a ****ed up power to weight ratio.

He also camouflages with smashville.
BAN!

 

[salaboB]

how is that a solution? if you believe that MK is a problem for the counterpick system, only allowing one win with him still effectively makes him the only logical choice in round one(I no longer believe this to be the case, but even if you do this rule makes no sense)

If you use him in the opener, you can't use him after you win and your opponent is about to CP you. It will at least add diversity to the matches without entirely making those good at MK lose their character.

 

[Daimonster]

I have no idea what defend with pressure means. The best thing I can think up is spamming those, but that can be punished with proper timing..

Thank you for degrading my theories based on something you don't understand.

Assuming the MK KNOWS that the 3rd transformation is his best section of the stage...you must also assume that he will be aggressive. To combat this pressure, spacing d.tilt and defending with dancing blade is the best means of getting rid of Mk's ground game (on the hill). Please don't disregard my posts as if they mean nothing.

 

[WiyamMang]

If Brawl was the Special Olympics, Meta Knight would be Usain Bolt popping out of no where and running the race at full pace like “yeah, I’m the sh**z” and not realizing that he doesn’t belong there.

There's this implication that all Brawl characters are evenly balanced in terms of strengths and weaknesses and Meta Knight's very existence in the game is debunks that completely. Rather than go into a pointless rant where I tear him apart like the toilet after Taco night, I'll just point out the rudimentary things. Basic as they may seem, they're enough to place him in the category of demi-god.

1) His dash grab is ridiculous. I can't even explain it fully. There's very little lag after a miss. "But he wasn't even near me!" Well, that's too bad. He grabbed you.

2) In some cases, in order to just escape his furious sword spinning attack, the only way to break out is DIing. You can trap someone in that little chasm of pain if they have no clue how to move away from it. And the saddest part is that it racks up ridiculous amounts of damage fast and all the Meta Knight user needs to do is press and hold A.

3) Regarding number 2, his hitframes are insanium in the cranium. What makes me say that? A Jigglypuff user has a little to no possibility of even scraping Meta Knight. You might think that doesn't say much but a skilled Jigglypuff can take down several characters. Or at least TOUCH THEM. But no. Meta Knight has a basically impenetrable wall that Jigglypuff can't even touch. Nonetheless, this applies to almost any character without a projectile. Meta Knight will **** them.

4) Again, about the stupid attacks. They rack up way too much damage way too fast. Sure, each hit does only minor damage but remember that he attacks so fast you can't even see it on the screen. Literally. Just pause the game. In that one pause frame, he's using three attacks all together.

5) He can spike. This wouldn't be such a problem to me if they didn't make Marth's spike so hard to use in Brawl but I still have to comment on Meta Knight's spikes and pseudo spikes. Not only that but you have to realize that just by using Up B, you can send opponent(s) flying. MUCH more deadly than Marth's Up B.

6) He has a disappearing move. DO I NEED TO REALLY ELABORATE ON THIS ONE?

7) All his B (Special) moves ares recovery moves. Add that to the fact that he can jump five times. I can go on forever on these major issues with the character but I won't. I do it for the sake of civility.

As I said, I wouldn't go on an excessively angry rant but here goes one complaint I can't sugarcoat:

8) The stupid tornado. I hate this moves. No. I abhor it. It's a **** mess. I can't believe they would give an already broken character such an incredibly lousy move. I'm not say 'lousy' as in weak. I mean 'lousy' as in 'it will frustrate anyone who has to deal with it'. I find that Meta Knight's hit frames minimize as much as they can when he's using this. It covers incredibly amounts of range. It can completely devastate a character by trapping him/her in the buttraping cyclone. Since there is maneuverability involved with the attack and little to no knockback until the final hit (which is like a nanosecond fast), it is virtually un-DIable. But my biggest gripe? The attack can kill you easily using it excessively.

So my verdict?

We shouldn't ban Meta Knight. No, I think it's fine to use him. Sure he’s literally a smack in the face to everyone else trying to play a fair game but go ahead. Just don't lose.
Never lose under any circumstance.
And don't say "Oh, that bob-bomb came out of no where and blew me up".
No. You don't get an excuse.
None.
It’s like me giving you an Uzi in a knife fight. You just can't lose. If you lose, you we lose all respect for you.

 

[brinboy789]

I say we ban G&W.
The logic is infallible.

He is the only character that is truly 2D.
He is also the only character with a ****ed up power to weight ratio.

He also camouflages with smashville.
BAN!

doesnt regular G&W blend in with final destination? O.o

 

[kirbstir]

There's this implication that all Brawl characters are evenly balanced in terms of strengths and weaknesses and Meta Knight's very existence in the game is debunks that completely. Rather than go into a pointless rant where I tear him apart like the toilet after Taco night, I'll just point out the rudimentary things. Basic as they may seem, they're enough to place him in the category of demi-god.

This is a straw-man argument. Nobody whose opinion should be taken seriously has implied that "all Brawl characters are evenly balanced in terms of strengths and weaknesses."

 

[Dark Hart]

There's this implication that all Brawl characters are evenly balanced in terms of strengths and weaknesses and Meta Knight's very existence in the game is debunks that completely. Rather than go into a pointless rant where I tear him apart like the toilet after Taco night, I'll just point out the rudimentary things. Basic as they may seem, they're enough to place him in the category of demi-god.

What kirbstir said.

5) He can spike. This wouldn't be such a problem to me if they didn't make Marth's spike so hard to use in Brawl but I still have to comment on Meta Knight's spikes and pseudo spikes. Not only that but you have to realize that just by using Up B, you can send opponent(s) flying. MUCH more deadly than Marth's Up B.

MK can spike? Why don't I know this?

He has a disappearing move. DO I NEED TO REALLY ELABORATE ON THIS ONE?

>_> <_< Really? That's one of your reasons? He can disappear? ...

 

[Nic64]

If you use him in the opener, you can't use him after you win and your opponent is about to CP you. It will at least add diversity to the matches without entirely making those good at MK lose their character.

it's still a wishy washy solution that will cause many people to give him up entirely being that he would not be a viable full time character, might as well just ban him if he's that much of a problem(he really isn't though)

 

[salaboB]

it's still a wishy washy solution that will cause many people to give him up entirely being that he would not be a viable full time character

You have proof I take it?

Or even strong evidence based on past behavior?

 

[Nic64]

I believe that based on human nature, I don't know if there is a specific precedent for that which we could look at but it seems highly illogical for me that a character that can not win a set on his own would not be affected in that way. why would you main MK when he can win you only one game? so much easier to use snake/falco/marth or someone else who has almost no bad matches full time, he'll still be common because he's an easy character to secondary, but if you can only use a character one out of three times few people are going to invest all of their play time into him. this itself may be seen as a goal for some people but I don't have a problem with how common MK is, I think he either has to be too good for brawl or not. it sends a mixed message, that may indeed reflect how conflicted the community is over it, but IMO doesn't offer a real solution. everyone that hates MK still has to deal with him, still has to feel like they are at an unfair disadvantage if they don't pick MK once, everyone that played MK exclusively still needs to suddenly pick up more characters and be months behind other people. I've gone back and forth on whether or not he should be banned but the one thing I have consistently believed is that it should be conclusive, ban or no ban, if he's not ban worthy there's no sense limiting him otherwise. I suppose that it may be just as much a philosophical bias here so I will state that these are just my thoughts, perhaps it makes perfect sense to other people.

 

[salaboB]

I suppose that it may be just as much a philosophical bias here so I will state that these are just my thoughts, perhaps it makes perfect sense to other people.

I can see where you're coming from, I just don't think people will not use MK because of this.

It's really no worse than practicing with a character that can be heavily CP'ed for those times you can bring him out, and if you do end up being unable to play another round with MK it means you won one already. Basically, it will force the MK mains to pick up a secondary to use if they win with MK. After all, if they lose with MK they can keep using him.

Really interesting would be to force this for every character, to make it so people simply must have at least two characters they can play well.

 

[~AceR~]

I still sometimes laugh at seeing how far we've come from thinking that "MK's attacks are weak and pointless. He's also one of the lightest characters".

Oh the joy of first impressions on a video game.

 

[St. Viers]

what will be great is when people get over their second impression ^_^

 

[salaboB]

what will be great is when people get over their second impression ^_^

I think we're on the third currently.

 

[King Funk]

Meta Knight is so overpowered he has a better theme song than anyone else. It's so unfair...

 

[St. Viers]

dude that last point is so valid--ban him

 

[The Milk Monster]

Someone said Meta can spike..
With what, may I ask?

 

[kr3wman]

Meta Knight is so overpowered he has a better theme song than anyone else. It's so unfair...

Falcon has the best theme song.

 

[Hence]

Temporary Bans, try them.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Temporary Bans, try them.

No. Besides, D3's infinite is much more broken than ANYTHING MK has, and for some reason a rediculous number of people won't ban it

EDIT the problem with a temp ban is during the time the ban is issued, nothing is being learned about the matchup anyway. It's also too inconsistent for a lot of people.

 

[ShadowLink84]

No. Besides, D3's infinite is much more broken than ANYTHING MK has, and for some reason a rediculous number of people won't ban it

EDIT the problem with a temp ban is during the time the ban is issued, nothing is being learned about the matchup anyway. It's also too inconsistent for a lot of people.

Those ridiculous number of people use their brains rather than go "WOMG ITS SO BROKEN!".

 

[Mr_Hero]

Nah, he's just waaaaay overused.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Those ridiculous number of people use their brains rather than go "WOMG ITS SO BROKEN!".

Actually, the D3 infinity is completely broken. It's only function is to break matchups.

 

[salaboB]

No. Besides, D3's infinite is much more broken than ANYTHING MK has, and for some reason a rediculous number of people won't ban it

The reason is the D3 infinites are only of limited viability, so people pretend they don't do damage to the game.

And in the case of making everyone play as D3 the way MK's capabilities threaten to make everyone use MK, they don't.

 

[Anonymous.]

People want MK banned because they suck and can't find a way around it.

Obviously.

I see 3 good players in the yes to MK banned out of the 45+ in the no.

get ***** democracy lulz