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Should Metaknight be Banned? **Take 2** (Post-podcast)
- Thread starter SamuraiPanda
- Start date
- Status
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
yeah that. Which means everyone can punish it.
Ulevo
Smash Master
Most (if not all) characters do. Most grabs come out on Frame 4, and there are many, many attacks capable of punishing within the time alloted. I don't know what version of Brawl you've been playing.
cutter
Smash Champion
Most grabs hit on frame 6, but that doesn't change the fact they come out fast.
Inui
Banned via Warnings
All standing grabs are 6 frames, IIRC. Tether grabs, sans Olimar's stupidly broken one, are 8 frames. Snake has an 8 frame grab for some reason.
Ulevo
Smash Master
Tomato, tomato. The same idea applies. Still, I thought it was frame 4. My marbles are falling out of my head.
itsthebigfoot
Smash Lord
this is why people wanna ban mk, they're too dumb to realize what his attacks actually do
mk's dsmash hits in front of him on frame 5, behind him on frame 10, and if you block it you have 25 frames to do whatever you want to him. 25 frames is a lot, that's a donkey kong sideb with a few frames to spare
EDIT: inui, bowser and dk's standing grabs are also frame 8, it's probably just all the slow characters
Inui
Banned via Warnings
Yup. People suck, so they want the best character banned.
I didn't know this. Thanks for the info.
What about Dedede's grab?
lolololololol
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
What about DDD's?
both of you really need to stop with blanket statements since you just look ******** when you make them.
idiots will always be the loudest ones, but assuming the pro bans argument based on such a notion is foolish and only serves to hurt your argument.
itsthebigfoot
Smash Lord
i dunno, maybe, i only know dk and bowser frames, i'll look it up though.
and shadowlink, we make blanket statements because it covers 90% of the people
and shadowlink, we make blanket statements because it covers 90% of the people
Ulevo
Smash Master
What argument exactly?
The vote for SBR has already been casted, and it is very clear that no constructive progress has been made since the beginning of this thread, or the previous one. This thread will only serve the continuous slander of members by other members because arguments will go around in circles.
There's no reason to argue anymore. You could point out that SBR is not the law, and that this could serve to influence the decision of TO's, but they could have done that before, during and after this mess anyway.
Is it just me or is Dedede's grab amazingly good (IE I feel it connects among the fastest of all grabs + has huge range).
Inui
Banned via Warnings
It's overall the second best grab, probably. Olimar wins. Dedede does more damage with his grabs and has the CG, but Olimar has silly combos, more range, and killing throws.
dawgbowl
Smash Ace
its to keep him from being banned, obviously... those 2 frames are the most important frames in the universe.
Olimar's grab is more exploitable due to the properties of killing the Pikmin intended to grab you. Also, like all tethers, its range varies as a function of time, making it more interruptible than melee grabs like Dedede's.
mariofanpm12
Smash Ace
What we really need is some sort of Ban Criteria or something to help us.
itsthebigfoot
Smash Lord
i think it's just it's stupid range
i couldn't find frame data on the grab, i'd guess it's frame 8 though, because of how the infinite works
d3's grab has a second hit that has 7 frames of hitlag (6 when diminished)before they are pushed out of range. during this time they're stuck right in front of dedede. the infinite works on all 4 characters (excluding bowser cause it works for a different reason) because they either have a hit animation that extends they're hitbox so that it's within grab range for an extra frame (mario, luigi, samus) or the retardedly programmed 3 extra frames (dk... ****ing sakurai)
anyway, because of the extra hitlag from the second hit, if i remember right, when dedede finishes the opposition is stuck in his range for a grand total of 7 frames (unless they're about to get butt****ed by the infinite) if d3 had a 6 frame grab, everyone would get infinited, it would have to be 8
again, i did my testing on d3 in may, and only on the infinite, because of how stupid it was. but if i remember right, those are the numbers, which would give d3 an 8 frame grab
unless i forgot, idunno, i wiped my hard drive in july toget rid of a bug, so i don't have the old data
i couldn't find frame data on the grab, i'd guess it's frame 8 though, because of how the infinite works
d3's grab has a second hit that has 7 frames of hitlag (6 when diminished)before they are pushed out of range. during this time they're stuck right in front of dedede. the infinite works on all 4 characters (excluding bowser cause it works for a different reason) because they either have a hit animation that extends they're hitbox so that it's within grab range for an extra frame (mario, luigi, samus) or the retardedly programmed 3 extra frames (dk... ****ing sakurai)
anyway, because of the extra hitlag from the second hit, if i remember right, when dedede finishes the opposition is stuck in his range for a grand total of 7 frames (unless they're about to get butt****ed by the infinite) if d3 had a 6 frame grab, everyone would get infinited, it would have to be 8
again, i did my testing on d3 in may, and only on the infinite, because of how stupid it was. but if i remember right, those are the numbers, which would give d3 an 8 frame grab
unless i forgot, idunno, i wiped my hard drive in july toget rid of a bug, so i don't have the old data
MuBa
Smash Lord
I know a lot of you guys are probably against Hacked Brawl but with the increased hitstun Dedede's and Falco's CGs are gone...and no more tilt/jab locks either >_>
And uuuuuh...MK is not that broken?
And uuuuuh...MK is not that broken?
cutter
Smash Champion
Can you say irony?
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
@adum
i called you adam brodeus, because i thought your SWF name was your actual first and last name.
@MK
theory time!!
i block MKs down smash
question. you say his frame disadvantage on block is 25, does that mean 25 frames between the 1st and second down smash or 25 frame before he returns to a controllable neutral position. cause if it is the 2nd that mean it takes another 5 frame to get hit by the second down smash
the second sounds right so i will go with that for the time being.
lets say that the MK knows i will punish and therefore runs away as soon as he is in control again.
so:
i block down smash
i have 25 frames before he gets out of my range (im sonic, my range is terrible.)
dropping shield takes 7 frames
i have 18 frames left
if i remember my frame data correctly, forward smash hitbox comes out on frame 13
MK still has 5 frames of immovability.
HOLY SHIZ, I CAN HAZ PUNISH DOWN SMASH WITH SONIC F-SMASH?
TO THE TESTING LAB!!!!!
edit how does chaingrab not work with more hitstun?
i called you adam brodeus, because i thought your SWF name was your actual first and last name.
@MK
theory time!!
i block MKs down smash
question. you say his frame disadvantage on block is 25, does that mean 25 frames between the 1st and second down smash or 25 frame before he returns to a controllable neutral position. cause if it is the 2nd that mean it takes another 5 frame to get hit by the second down smash
the second sounds right so i will go with that for the time being.
lets say that the MK knows i will punish and therefore runs away as soon as he is in control again.
so:
i block down smash
i have 25 frames before he gets out of my range (im sonic, my range is terrible.)
dropping shield takes 7 frames
i have 18 frames left
if i remember my frame data correctly, forward smash hitbox comes out on frame 13
MK still has 5 frames of immovability.
HOLY SHIZ, I CAN HAZ PUNISH DOWN SMASH WITH SONIC F-SMASH?
TO THE TESTING LAB!!!!!
edit how does chaingrab not work with more hitstun?
cutter
Smash Champion
Something doesn't seem right though.
When you block Dsmash you get pushed back and sent out of range. This is actually notable if you don't have a good grab range or the MK spaced his Dsmash.
So if you attempt to punish without a grab you get 25 frames - 7 for shielddrop, but then you still have to reach MK to punish him with something which takes more time. Am I missing something here?
When you block Dsmash you get pushed back and sent out of range. This is actually notable if you don't have a good grab range or the MK spaced his Dsmash.
So if you attempt to punish without a grab you get 25 frames - 7 for shielddrop, but then you still have to reach MK to punish him with something which takes more time. Am I missing something here?
Unless you're Ness, you can probably do something.
cutter
Smash Champion
I'm not saying that you can't do anything, but getting pushed back does limit your punishing options.
popsofctown
Smash Champion
I'm pretty sure this is wrong. You can kill fsmash pikmin and think you've blocked a grab, you can hit olimar himself and disrupt a grab, but you cannot hurt the pikmin intended to grab you. I'm pretty sure on this.
The Milk Monster
Smash Champion
Well you can kill the Pikmin before they grab you if thats what you're implying.
hizzlum
Smash Journeyman
k about finding the podcast showme ya moves, and the MK should be banned episode, what is that episode titled on i tunes in in the show me ya news podcast? i cant find it anywhere, it would help if someone told me
Justblaze647
Smash Lord
gantrain05
Smash Master
like kill the pikmin while they are coming out to grab you? cuz if thats the case...then no you can't they don't have a hurtbox, you can kill them if olimar throws them or possibly from a smash. but not while he's in grab animation.
It works with Wolfs blaster. It KOs the pikmin while Olimar grabs you to release him. That's because Oli has no grab bArmor. Wolf can just stand there and fire blaster all day long. It has transcending priority and always kills Pikmin in one shot
Can someone who has played fighting games other than Smash explain the situations of characters in other games and why they were banned, then show the similar links and see what MK has in common in that criteria.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
90% of people within a given party WILL be idiots.
That does not excuse presuming an argument based on that idiocy.
off the top of my head I can think of severa debates where the majority of people n both sides are stupid.
Abortion, homosexuality, religious discussion.
Ye we refrain from makin lanket statements since that presumes the argument based on those who are not qualified to speak and are vocal.
Do we make the assumption that is the argument we should listen to? Or do we listen to those who are logical, and go to lengths to prove their argument.
Again blanket statements are bad. Don't make them.
NinjaLink
Smash Master
Good
Example is Al Gol from SC4. he got banned cause of the bubble wall. Only 3 characters can actually beat that tactic because of long range. Anyone else basically loses.
Watchful_Eye
Smash Apprentice
Metaknight does not break the game physics or something in any way, he only seems to be 1 "Tier" higher than any other character.
Would you ban Fox in Melee if Marth, Falco and Sheik didnt exist?
Would you ban Fox in Melee if Marth, Falco and Sheik didnt exist?
brinboy789
Smash Champion
well there is a comparism between MK and yun (SF3). yun had no bat matchups, and arguablyone neutral. MK has at least one (snake) and several that are arguably are neutral or 45:55. yun was NOT banned. pro-ban people go SF3 has no bad stages, so the comparism fails, but yun was worse then MK >_>
Snake doesn't counter MK.
Overswarm
is laughing at you
- Joined
- May 4, 2005
- Messages
- 21,181
If Peach and ICs didn't exist as well, yes.
Witchking_of_Angmar
Smash Lord
What exactly do Peach and IC's have to do with banning Fox? They both get ***** by him.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
I'm actually very security conscious so I'd never do that.
Not that it matters much anymore cause if people look hard enough there's enough info to tie me to myself IRL because of some infrequent tournament attendance, but that's because this is a competitive community, and it's part of being an active participant.
So? Don't listen to the idiots, regardless of their opinion, and consider the debate in terms of the people who actually know what they're talking about.
Most people are not informed enough about a given topic to debate or too blinded by personal biases, but does that mean that we ignore everyone and just make arbitrary decisions?
No, instead, we separate out the stupidity by refuting it and consider only that which holds a basis in fact, the legitimate arguements.
Edit:
I only talked about that stuff because people somehow managed to connect it to the topic.
The Supreme Court has the same requirement for their decisions to be enforced as the SBR so they are a good metaphor, and the SBR just came up with their decision which people were commenting on, including methodology.
Scientific theory related to who had the burden of proof in the debate.
If you can find a way to make say... String theory relevant to the discussion of MK's ban then I'll explain it. Seriously, though, don't try it.
But overall, I bring up these topics because they are relevant and somebody said something incorrect. I don't just randomly start talking about the supreme court.
Yes, he does
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