Should Metaknight be Banned? **Take 2** (Post-podcast)

[~ Gheb ~]

2- Not everybody is Marth, lol.

It's funny that you - as a Bowser player - bring this point up

 

[ShadowLink84]

That's great but:
1- It was an example, you're reading too much into it.
2- Not everybody is Marth, lol.

Sonic can ftilt/Dtilt MK after he blocks the Dsmash.
Alot of characters can punish.
Pit gets an Fsmash.

 

[Inui]

So are you the opposite?
You seem more likable in person than you do here.

Yup!

I'm an arrogant prick overall, but really nice and less likely to be insulting towards people I am good friends with. Opposite of Atomsk in that area.

2- Not everybody is Marth, lol.

Yup. The actual top tiers can **** MK for mistakes instead of just doing ~14%.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Yup. The actual top tiers can **** MK for mistakes instead of just doing ~14%.

???
the actual top tiers?

 

[Flayl]

It's funny that you - as a Bowser player - bring this point up

Not sure what you're getting at.

Anyway I wish I had chosen a better example becasue people are just missing my point entirely.

 

[Emblem Lord]

lol

Inui: Marth can get a tipper f-smash, but I think he can get an u-smash too.

Either can kill well and U-smash does 21%.

DB is just easier to hit with.

 

[Inui]

???
the actual top tiers?

Snake gets his 21% f-tilt or an 11% d-throw into his oki.

Falco gets the CG for like 54% damage.

Dedede gets a b-throw for 16-17%.

Game and Watch gets a d-throw into his oki or a smash attack which can kill at very low damage.

Diddy Kong gets a banana toss into his crazy stuff.

Olimar gets a free grab which leads into big combos for ~40-50% at low damage.


All = more severe punishments than Marth's f-b because those characters are actually top tier while Marth's just high tier.

lol

Inui: Marth can get a tipper f-smash, but I think he can get an u-smash too.

Either can kill well and U-smash does 21%.

DB is just easier to hit with.

I haven't found those options to be consistent at all, but I guess they can work. The top tiers have better options in terms of consistency.

 

[Justblaze647]

???
the actual top tiers?

didn't you know? he means PT, Luigi, Zamus, and Ike.

jk

 

[AlphaZealot]

Inui has a bad rap from the forums but he is really nice in real life.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Oki is just wake-up game. Not guaranteed.

lol@ G&W's oki after d-throw.

That's ****. His opponent has too many options.

lol@Oli as top tier.

 

[Inui]

Inui has a bad rap from the forums but he is really nice in real life.

Thanks.

I'm looking forward to another epic set at Clash of the Titans. You better show up and bring Quivo so my crewmate can learn what an actual good Toon Link is.

Oki is just wake-up game. Not guaranteed.

lol@ G&W's oki after d-throw.

That's ****. His opponent has too many options.

lol@Oli as top tier.

Snake's is pretty much guaranteed if you react because of his range and speed. He's got the best oki, imo.

lol @ Olimar NOT being top tier. Come to tournaments, nub. You haven't played Atomsk or BlackWaltz's Olimars.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Not sure what you're getting at.

Anyway I wish I had chosen a better example becasue people are just missing my point entirely.

Because Bowser is a master of punishing MKs moves. You're saying "Not everybody is Marth". **** it. Bowser can do it better anyways

Snake gets his 21% f-tilt or an 11% d-throw into his oki.

Falco gets the CG for like 54% damage.

Dedede gets a b-throw for 16-17%.

Game and Watch gets a d-throw into his oki or a smash attack which can kill at very low damage.

Diddy Kong gets a banana toss into his crazy stuff.

Olimar gets a free grab which leads into big combos for ~40-50% at low damage.


All = more severe punishments than Marth's f-b because those characters are actually top tier while Marth's just high tier.

"Actually Top tier"? By your defeinition maybe. Either way, there are lots of other characters, who can punish MK badly enough, not only top tiers.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Good sh*t to them for being hawt sh*t.

Oli is still high tier.

Snake does have the best oki.

WTF@ shielding after d-throw to cut your opponent's options in half?!

**** like that is so crazy it's down right sexy.

 

[Inui]

Oli is still high tier.

False. A character with the ability to force approaches and completely shut down almost all approaches at the same time is clearly top tier. His weakness of getting gimped mearly makes him not bannable.

Snake does have the best oki.

WTF@ shielding after d-throw to cut your opponent's options in half?!

**** like that is so crazy it's down right sexy.

It actually cuts them more than that.

If you roll behind, he can f-tilt. He can punish normal get-up with a grab and block the get-up attack. If you roll away, he gets a dash attack.

If the Snake player has amazing reaction time, you're going to get hit again.

 

[Justblaze647]

lol @ Olimar NOT being top tier. Come to tournaments, nub. You haven't played Atomsk or BlackWaltz's Olimars.

lol @ EL being a nub...

 

[viparagon]

Snake does have the best oki.
QUOTE]

Sorry for being a nub, but whats an oki?

 

[Emblem Lord]

You have 4 options. Wake-up attack. Normal wake-up. Roll left. Roll right.

Shielding covers the first two without thinking which is what I meant. But yeah if you have good reaction you can cover their other options as well, but that's more dependent on you as a player.

The shielding thing makes it childs play though.

Oki is short for Okizeme. It's high level Tekken terminology meaning the art of keeping your opponent on the floor.

Other fighting game communities call it Wake-up game since when you get up from the floor it's kind of like waking up.

Wake-up game refers to any tricks or ways a character can cover their opponents options during wake-up and try to keep them in a bad position or punish them.


...

I know too much about fighting games. >__>

 

[NinjaLink]

You have 4 options. Wake-up attack. Normal wake-up. Roll left. Roll right.

Shielding covers the first two without thinking which is what I meant. But yeah if you have good reaction you can cover their other options as well, but that's more dependent on you as a player.

The shielding thing makes it childs play though.

Oki is short for Okizeme. It's high level Tekken terminology meaning the art of keeping your opponent on the floor.

Other fighting game communities call it Wake-up game since when you get up from the floor it's kind of like waking up.

Wake-up game refers to any tricks or ways a character can cover their opponents options during wake-up and try to keep them in a bad position or punish them.


...

I know too much about fighting games. >__>

Yea apparently most ppl who play smash dont play other fightin games competitively. Its also the only fightin game where u can get by without knowing frames...........also the fact that most ppl dont care. Its funny how M2K gets made fun of by knowing frames when its essential in every fighting game to begin with.....ppl are ignorant. >_<

 

[Steel]

emblem lord teach me to fighting game

 

[Inui]

lol @ EL being a nub...

Uh... I say this because, despite his impressive knowledge, he's not a top player in anything and always lost to me in Smash tournaments LOL.

Yea apparently most ppl who play smash dont play other fightin games competitively. Its also the only fightin game where u can get by without knowing frames...........also the fact that most ppl dont care. Its funny how M2K gets made fun of by knowing frames when its essential in every fighting game to begin with.....ppl are ignorant. >_<

QFT

 

[adumbrodeus]

Aren't Supreme Court proceedings and written opnions generally public?

Beat to the punch etc

Yes, but it's the DELIBERATIONS that I'm talking about.

The the deliberations of the SBR is what I'm comparing to the deliberations of the Supreme court.




Firstly...

Fourth, Supreme Court, and any court really, proceedings are public. The SBR is obviously not.

Incorrect, while every court does have sections of their proceedings which are public, the Supreme Court and indeed EVERY SINGLE JUDICIAL ENTITY IN THE US has sections of their proceedings which aren't public at all.

Jury deliberations and the deliberations of the Supreme Court are completely private. You also cannot see the cert process.

First of all, the Supreme Court guarantees life in office. The SBR obviously does not. This means that, to an extent, their actions should be held up to scrutiny, but they are not other than for the SBR itself.

Second, the Supreme Court gives massive, massive, extremely well-thought explanations for each judge's decision on each case on how they voted, even if it was to abstain and even if a discussed issue ultimately did not have a significant bearing on their decision. Obviously, the SBR does not do this.

Third, the Supreme Court is the final leg in a long, long, long, long judicial process, meaning smaller decisions are made on the way to the Supreme Court. This means that localized decisions often remain localized. Obviously, the SBR does not do this.

Fourth, Supreme Court, and any court really, proceedings are public. The SBR is obviously not.

You can't apply the Supreme Court's handling of this in any way. And the SBR is separate from scrutiny anyway because they don't depend upon constituents to keep themselves in office. If the SBR is the only deciding factor in staying in the SBR and the SBR does not kick people out just for having dissenting opinions, which they obviously don't, then there is no incentive to change your decision just to satisfy a group of people.

I will be the first to admit that the SBR is not the same as the US Supreme court, however you are missing the fundamental issue here.


Both are institutions which have NO POWER OF ENFORCEMENT WHATSOEVER. Because of that, their entire power lies in their legitimacy. If they are perceived as illegitimate then they become powerless.

That reason is what gives the SBR their need for private deliberations, because it removes them from even the perception being influenced by mob. By insulting the individuals from criticism based on their vote or reasoning, it allows them to make decisions based on what they honestly believe, instead of what the popular opinion is. This is needed to maintain legitimacy.

Furthermore, it removes their process from commentary, the actual process while effective, is often a cause for people who disagree to perceive it as illegitimate.



These two main issues are both ways for the SBR to lose legitimacy without even doing anything wrong. Instead it would simply be because less then 100% agree. Furthermore, it can actually taint their decisions. That's reason enough to preserve their privacy.

Frame data fails to take human reaction/speed into account. Saying, just for example, that MK's DSmash is unsafe on block doesn't matter if the character's fastest attack that could reach MK won't hit because of sheild drop + reaction time lag. You need to take into account how reliable it is to punish

You can't see how possible it is to follow up a certain move without playing against somebody who knows what they are doing. Think tech chasing.

Those are just examples, hopefully I won't have to provide more...

Human reaction time can be measured.

Actually it's player speed and guessing respectively, but yes, you can't grasp the mindgame potential of a moveset wihtout actually playing with/against it.

Actually, you can.

Options with unique required counters. Better if they're safe.

Yea apparently most ppl who play smash dont play other fightin games competitively. Its also the only fightin game where u can get by without knowing frames...........also the fact that most ppl dont care. Its funny how M2K gets made fun of by knowing frames when its essential in every fighting game to begin with.....ppl are ignorant. >_<

Who does that?

I was under the impression that M2K got made fun of for the opposite reason, that he never backs up what he says with real data.

I seem to remember being the one constantly referring to frame data each time I was debating him.


Still, people making fun of other people knowing and referring to frame data is, for lack of a better word, idiotic.

 

[Overswarm]

First of all, the Supreme Court guarantees life in office. The SBR obviously does not. This means that, to an extent, their actions should be held up to scrutiny, but they are not other than for the SBR itself.

Second, the Supreme Court gives massive, massive, extremely well-thought explanations for each judge's decision on each case on how they voted, even if it was to abstain and even if a discussed issue ultimately did not have a significant bearing on their decision. Obviously, the SBR does not do this.

Third, the Supreme Court is the final leg in a long, long, long, long judicial process, meaning smaller decisions are made on the way to the Supreme Court. This means that localized decisions often remain localized. Obviously, the SBR does not do this.

Fourth, Supreme Court, and any court really, proceedings are public. The SBR is obviously not.

You can't apply the Supreme Court's handling of this in any way. And the SBR is separate from scrutiny anyway because they don't depend upon constituents to keep themselves in office. If the SBR is the only deciding factor in staying in the SBR and the SBR does not kick people out just for having dissenting opinions, which they obviously don't, then there is no incentive to change your decision just to satisfy a group of people.

5th, the Supreme Court gets paid and aren't talking about video games

 

[brinboy789]

5th, the Supreme Court gets paid and aren't talking about video games

lol why are we talking about supreme court? are you guys trying to compare SBR to supreme court? i would compare SBR to the government. SBR is a collection of intelligent posters and/or amazing players. the government makes the rules. you SHOULD follow them, but you dont HAVE to.

 

[Inui]

Uh... The SBR is a group of supposed elites that is supposed to be the guiding force of the community and nothing more. That's it. This debate is dumb.

 

[Overswarm]

False. A character with the ability to force approaches and completely shut down almost all approaches at the same time is clearly top tier. His weakness of getting gimped mearly makes him not bannable.

It'd be nice if MK could be gimped.

 

[Overswarm]

lol why are we talking about supreme court? are you guys trying to compare SBR to supreme court? i would compare SBR to the government. SBR is a collection of intelligent posters and/or amazing players. the government makes the rules. you SHOULD follow them, but you dont HAVE to.

hahahahahahahaha

 

[da K.I.D.]

im getting tired of you ppl making me agree with inui

lololololololol

 

[brinboy789]

hahahahahahahaha

your funny. your real funny

 

[Serris]

It'd be nice if MK could be gimped.

Samus can spike him out of Shuttle Loop, but she gets hit, too. D:

 

[aeghrur]

lol why are we talking about supreme court? are you guys trying to compare SBR to supreme court? i would compare SBR to the government. SBR is a collection of intelligent posters and/or amazing players. the government makes the rules. you SHOULD follow them, but you dont HAVE to.

That's a terrible comparison.
The current american government is crap.
The people there aren't as smart as you wish, they're not economists, they're lawyers and politicians. They're also not bi-partisan at all and really hardly get anything done. Also, the government is elected by the populous. The SBR is elected by, uh, SBR? lol. You HAVE to follow the government laws too or there will be consequences. If you don't follow the SBR, who cares? Your the Tourny holder anyhow. =/ No, Supreme court to SBR is much better.

 

[da K.I.D.]

It'd be nice if MK could be gimped.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLWmsDhpDk4

roflmao

 

[brinboy789]

That's a terrible comparison.
The current american government is crap.
The people there aren't as smart as you wish, they're not economists, they're lawyers and politicians. They're also not bi-partisan at all and really hardly get anything done. Also, the government is elected by the populous. The SBR is elected by, uh, SBR? lol. You HAVE to follow the government laws too or there will be consequences. If you don't follow the SBR, who cares? Your the Tourny holder anyhow. =/ No, Supreme court to SBR is much better.

mm...i suppose. but wasnt there like a huge post about how SBR isnt like supreme court before? lol...

 

[aeghrur]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLWmsDhpDk4

roflmao

That was epic.

 

[Remzi]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLWmsDhpDk4

roflmao

LMAO, thats in NL's sig, right?

 

[NinjaLink]

WHY...............*looks at sig*........YES IT IS


LMAO XD..........wheeeeeeee
I gimp mks alot not just m2ks. I remember gimping fortes mk twice in teams. Dair fun. DOUBLE DAIR!!! (i watched that show when i was little lol)

 

[da K.I.D.]

lol @ characters other than falco pulling off double d-air spikes and surviving

 

[adumbrodeus]

5th, the Supreme Court gets paid and aren't talking about video games

Lol, true. But the reliance on legitimacy is the important thing and the point that I was making.

lol why are we talking about supreme court? are you guys trying to compare SBR to supreme court? i would compare SBR to the government. SBR is a collection of intelligent posters and/or amazing players. the government makes the rules. you SHOULD follow them, but you dont HAVE to.

Understand, the supreme court is technically like that.

They have neither the purse nor the sword, because of this they require people to consider them a legitimate institution otherwise they would not listen to the Supreme Court, and there'd be nothing the court could do.

Granted, not on the individual level, but a large enough group or another branch could.


For an example, take the example of the case Cherokee Nation v State of Georgia. The Supreme Court ruled that the forcible removal of the Cherokee tribe was unconstitutional, so what did President Andrew Jackson do? He said, "Judge Marshall has made his decision, now let him enforce it", and proceed to remove the Cherokees. Granted, the quote is likely not his, but the sentiment stands, we now know the event as the Trail of Tears.


Never will happen today, right? Wrong! Take the Legislative veto, ruled unconstitutional in INS v. Chadha. Never gonna be used again, right?

Incorrect, a significant number of bills with the legislative veto are on the books and have been enforced up to this day. Essentially, they ignored the Supreme Court and there was nothing the Court could do about it.

Uh... The SBR is a group of supposed elites that is supposed to be the guiding force of the community and nothing more. That's it. This debate is dumb.

Because in spite of their differences, the SBR and the Federal Supreme Court both derive their power from the exact same source, legitimacy.

mm...i suppose. but wasnt there like a huge post about how SBR isnt like supreme court before? lol...

To which I responded with a short post explaining that the SBR isn't like the Supreme Court in general, but shares one particular feature, the need for legitimacy. Therefore it's valid to suggest that things based around that need for legitimacy are generally valid for both (exempting impracticality).

 

[Remzi]

lol @ characters other than falco pulling off double d-air spikes and surviving

Lol I've done it with Marth.

 

[brinboy789]

Lol I've done it with Marth.

a double spike with marth??? thats amazing O.o

i think i've done it with falcon before...

 

[Overswarm]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06CvUjLgK5g

does anyone else hear this when Brinboy posts?