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Should Metaknight be Banned? **Take 2** (Post-podcast)

Should Metaknight be banned?


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DRaGZ

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One of the primary rules of the SBR is to keep the SBR discussions private. Our releases are to the public and only by a few members of the SBR that have been appointed to do so. This is so what we say is coherent.

Considering teh vote was lost with the SBR we had, I think that is the decision as it stands. While there will almost undoubtedly be a vote again if MK's dominance increases or stays consistent, that is what it is for now. You can't just copy/paste things from the SBR or tell people waht goes on behind closed doors, especially when most of the AIM conversations get reported back to us anyway.

Just keep your head down =P
I really don't like that the SBR isn't transparent. The rest of the smash community looks up to the SBR like it's a governing body. Sure, you technically have no power, but in any other practical sense you are the guiding force of this community, so it only makes sense that people would like to at least see what is going on. That way, people can judge for themselves whether the ongoings of the SBR are impartial or not, because, quite frankly, that's one of the biggest gripes people have with the entire idea and probably why other communities thinks the Smash community is elitist and arrogant.

I mean, you're not elected officials, but you basically function as such. It'd be nice to have a bit of transparency somewhere, not even necessarily viewing of posts but rather more like weekly updates as to what is going on in the room currently, since it'll at least give more of a vibe of "people working for the benefit of the community" rather than "secret Stonecutters organization trying to take over the Smash world".

EDIT: This would also solve any BS that SBR members say outside of the SBR. People could just refer to a contradicting post and just go "no, that's a flithy lie, you flithy liar".
 

gantrain05

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I really don't like that the SBR isn't transparent. The rest of the smash community looks up to the SBR like it's a governing body. Sure, you technically have no power, but in any other practical sense you are the guiding force of this community, so it only makes sense that people would like to at least see what is going on. That way, people can judge for themselves whether the ongoings of the SBR are impartial or not, because, quite frankly, that's one of the biggest gripes people have with the entire idea and probably why other communities thinks the Smash community is elitist and arrogant.

I mean, you're not elected officials, but you basically function as such. It'd be nice to have a bit of transparency somewhere, not even necessarily viewing of posts but rather more like weekly updates as to what is going on in the room currently, since it'll at least give more of a vibe of "people working for the benefit of the community" rather than "secret Stonecutters organization trying to take over the Smash world".
someone let this guy into the SBR
 

ShadowLink84

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I do agree, one of the major issues is that no one really knows what is going on within the SBR unless we are told which is rather rare.
I think it would help to ease the tension that goes on in smashboards if they give their opinion more often on those issues.

*shrug*

I can't really understand why they wish to be incredibly quiet about what hey discuss. Some things I can understand, other things I would like them to be more open about.
 

kirbstir

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Hahaha, they kicked me out of the SBR today for posting the info about how there are hardly any tournament players in the anti-ban side. The Smash community has awesome leadership
Why are you surprised by this? You know the SBR rules, and you broke them; it didn't really matter what the context of breaking that rule was. Especially since you were on probation to begin with.

That said, the notion that you needed tournament experience to debate an argument that is largely based on emotion and ideology when you can look at facts from different regions that point otherwise is rather silly to begin with.
 

XienZo

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OMG, Sakurai secretly made MK BORDERLINE broken like this JUST to cause rebellions and splits among the SWF, eventually leading to the doom of the competitive scene!

And we thought his only weapon against us was tripping...

Sakurai probably no idea what the **** was going on with his game. He wasn't used to running huge projects like Brawl, and his primary focus seemed to be rallying the different parts of the Nintendo company to gather content for his game, not balancing gameplay.
that what he WANTS you to think.
 

DRaGZ

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Sakurai probably no idea what the **** was going on with his game. He wasn't used to running huge projects like Brawl, and his primary focus seemed to be rallying the different parts of the Nintendo company to gather content for his game, not balancing gameplay.
 

DRaGZ

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I am sorry Dragz but I disagree. Sakurai could not have been so blind as to see how terrible Link's recovery is, or so blind as to see how stupidly fast MK is in comparison to the others as well as the range.
He would have if all he cared about was FFA with items on.

I could actually see the game being somewhat balanced-looking under such circumstances, but that would only be because a four-way with items with opponents of similar skill levels usually seem to end in random victories anyway.
 

Flayl

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That said, the notion that you needed tournament experience to debate an argument that is largely based on emotion and ideology when you can look at facts from different regions that point otherwise is rather silly to begin with.
I wouldn't trust anyone commenting on MK's moveset without the proper tournament experience, and I hope the rest of the smash community agrees with me.
 

adumbrodeus

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Most of them are intelligent posters from the Melee era. You can't understand something like the MK issue simply by reading text.
Actually... you really SHOULD.

No individual match can illustrate MK's overall dominance so personal expirience is relatively speaking, moot.

Granted individuals who are more skilled TEND to have a better understanding of the overall metagame, but when we're dealing with the SBR the primary qualification for continued membership seems to be intellectual ability, which when dealing with calculating large-scale effects on the metagame, is what you need.

The only exception is TO expirience, which is still very limited in applying to a scale as massive as the overall metagame.


When the discussion focuses on individual match-ups, more experienced players do however, have a decided advantage in understanding. However, that is not an insurmountable obstacle because a high enough level of logical ability can trump understanding gained through more expirience, and there are correct shots in the dark. That's why appeals to authority don't work in reality.


Overall however, there's no way to judge this overall other then theorycraft, and if MK isn't a big enough issue that text cannot convey it... well that puts his ban-worthiness in serious doubt.


then how do you explain losing the poll =/
Average player tends to have a knee-jerk reaction, and banning MK is a knee-jerk reaction to losing a lot.

Hahaha, they kicked me out of the SBR today for posting the info about how there are hardly any tournament players in the anti-ban side. The Smash community has awesome leadership
That's because you broke the rules dude.

I'm sorry but the backroom is private for a very good reason, and aside from official releases, and maybe generalities ("here's why it didn't work out", "I didn't vote like this(and only I, outing others is a no-no)", etc.) discussions in the backroom should REMAIN THERE.

It's like the supreme court, if they are to be held personally liable for their decisions, that might make them choose differently. That's why the discussions are always private in both forums.

Furthermore to maintain legitimacy, I would argue that the SBR requires privacy, because their methods of arriving at conclusions might seem to the average tournament goer, wrong. Being able to pick apart the process in such a way definitely will hurt their legitimacy and might compromise their position as a governing body. I didn't realize this before, but after studying the US Supreme Court, now I do.



So please Lee, you are in the wrong here. Don't compound the issue.

lol Overswarm I won't deny that I'm a jackass sometimes, but I've done a lot in tournaments and earned a bit of arrogance. :p
Arrogance is never earned because it blinds you to the truth, not in any specific case but in general it hurts your ability to make logical decisions.


I would think it impossible to "argue" frame data considering it never changes.
Argue BASED ON frame data, I'm pretty sure he meant that.


I do agree, one of the major issues is that no one really knows what is going on within the SBR unless we are told which is rather rare.
I think it would help to ease the tension that goes on in smashboards if they give their opinion more often on those issues.

*shrug*

I can't really understand why they wish to be incredibly quiet about what hey discuss. Some things I can understand, other things I would like them to be more open about.
I understand why you'd want that.

But realistically speaking, it wouldn't be a good thing. The loss of legitimacy would be too fracturing to the community and it would make the members to vulnerable to being influenced by the mob mentality that these issues bring up.


Having elected reps participate in discussions MIGHT help ease the situation without compromising the legitimacy and independence of the SBR, but transparency is a BAD idea.
 

ShadowLink84

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Eh i'll be undecided on Sakurai's intentions since we cannot confirm them

I understand why you'd want that.

But realistically speaking, it wouldn't be a good thing. The loss of legitimacy would be too fracturing to the community and it would make the members to vulnerable to being influenced by the mob mentality that these issues bring up.


Having elected reps participate in discussions MIGHT help ease the situation without compromising the legitimacy and independence of the SBR, but transparency is a BAD idea.
Don't misunderstand, I don't argue for complete transparency. only transparency on some key issues such as the MK Ban. The SBR would still remain free of mob mentality since I highly doubt they would be influenced to begin with.

I feel that if we had the SBR bring up and update about their decision on the MK ban every now and then, it would benefit more primarily because they retain their privacy and aren't forced to disuss something just because the public wants to.

more like a request on their part rather than a demand.
 

Emblem Lord

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The man isn't stupid.

Of course he knew.

Thing is..why would he give a ****?

Would you?

If this game was gonna make you **** near rich, would you give a **** what kind of broken mess it is? Maybe you would, but alot of people wouldn't.

I'm all for SBR letting you guys in on what the deal is.

Then again I'm sure some of you noticed that I'm not afraid to announce my official stances on matters of importance and most of the time I choose to sit on the sidelines and observe.

For instance I have stated multiple times I had no direct influence on the tier list made by the SBR and I have yet to even vote on any poll on whether or not MK should be banned.
 

DRaGZ

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It's like the supreme court, if they are to be held personally liable for their decisions, that might make them choose differently. That's why the discussions are always private in both forums.

Furthermore to maintain legitimacy, I would argue that the SBR requires privacy, because their methods of arriving at conclusions might seem to the average tournament goer, wrong. Being able to pick apart the process in such a way definitely will hurt their legitimacy and might compromise their position as a governing body. I didn't realize this before, but after studying the US Supreme Court, now I do.
First of all, the Supreme Court guarantees life in office. The SBR obviously does not. This means that, to an extent, their actions should be held up to scrutiny, but they are not other than for the SBR itself.

Second, the Supreme Court gives massive, massive, extremely well-thought explanations for each judge's decision on each case on how they voted, even if it was to abstain and even if a discussed issue ultimately did not have a significant bearing on their decision. Obviously, the SBR does not do this.

Third, the Supreme Court is the final leg in a long, long, long, long judicial process, meaning smaller decisions are made on the way to the Supreme Court. This means that localized decisions often remain localized. Obviously, the SBR does not do this.

Fourth, Supreme Court, and any court really, proceedings are public. The SBR is obviously not.

You can't apply the Supreme Court's handling of this in any way. And the SBR is separate from scrutiny anyway because they don't depend upon constituents to keep themselves in office. If the SBR is the only deciding factor in staying in the SBR and the SBR does not kick people out just for having dissenting opinions, which they obviously don't, then there is no incentive to change your decision just to satisfy a group of people.
 

kirbstir

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I wouldn't trust anyone commenting on MK's moveset without the proper tournament experience, and I hope the rest of the smash community agrees with me.
Nobody is commenting on his moveset.

EDIT - Well, some are commenting on his moveset, but they're missing the point about actual tournament results not displaying this brokenness they claim.
 

Emblem Lord

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Why the hell would I need to go to tournaments to see if a characters has an amazing moveset or not?

You don't need to go to tournaments to see that Akuma's legs are invulnerable when he does any crouching kick in ST. You just need to do some playtesting.

Yes. That's right. His legs are invulnerable.

You CANNOT compare MK to ST Akuma.

YOU CAN'T DO IT!!!!
 

DRaGZ

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Why the hell would I need to go to tournaments to see if a characters has an amazing moveset or not?

You don't need to go to tournaments to see that Akuma's legs are invulnerable when he does any crouching kick in ST. You just need to do some playtesting.

Yes. That's right. His legs are invulnerable.

You CANNOT compare MK to ST Akuma.

YOU CAN'T DO IT!!!!
You kinda can in terms of how the communities interpreted them, but that's already been done and it's no longer relevant since we have already decided thus changing any sort of analogies we might have had before.
 

cutter

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IIRC, there is also a sequence where Akuma can keep the opponent in permanent blockstun, resulting in an eventual death from chip damage.

Akuma was a boss character that was DESIGNED to be ridiculous from the start. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that Akuma and Meta cannot be compared in terms of "brokenness".
 

Remzi

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LeeHarris does bring up a good point which is that the public has very little say on existing SBR that clearly don't deserve their SBR status anymore. If you care I can search up some very idiotic posts made by SBR members in the recent past. Even in the weekly "character discussion" there's some very inaccurate information regarding the characters.

I don't think anyone that lacks Brawl experience or knowledge should even be in the SBR. If they had their time in the melee days then perhaps create a seperate Melee Back Room but the community as a whole has moved onto Brawl.

Let alone having them vote on something like a MK ban seems ridiculous. Don't get me wrong though I don't think the public opinion should be the one that's taken seriously but... the MBR needs a roster change.
SBR, lol. Too much Marth xD
 

Flayl

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Why the hell would I need to go to tournaments to see if a characters has an amazing moveset or not?
Frame data fails to take human reaction/speed into account. Saying, just for example, that MK's DSmash is unsafe on block doesn't matter if the character's fastest attack that could reach MK won't hit because of sheild drop + reaction time lag. You need to take into account how reliable it is to punish

You can't see how possible it is to follow up a certain move without playing against somebody who knows what they are doing. Think tech chasing.

Those are just examples, hopefully I won't have to provide more...
 

ShadowLink84

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Frame data fails to take human reaction/speed into account. Saying, just for example, that MK's DSmash is unsafe on block doesn't matter if the character's fastest attack that could reach MK won't hit because of sheild drop + reaction time lag. You need to take into account how reliable it is to punish

You can't see how possible it is to follow up a certain move without playing against somebody who knows what they are doing. Think tech chasing.

Those are just examples, hopefully I won't have to provide more...
That falls into he category of mindgames which cannot be measured.
Humanr eaction, behavior, what the person does when the other user attacks them. Those are too varied to create an answer accordingly.

Players can show what a character can do but once something along the lines of "if I do this my opponent will do this or reac this way
comes into play you'll find issues.
 

ShadowLink84

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Actually it's player speed and guessing respectively, but yes, you can't grasp the mindgame potential of a moveset wihtout actually playing with/against it.
Which is why it is never discussed.
again what El aid still stands.
You don't need to experience a characters moveset to know if it is good or not.

? MBR stands for Marth Back Room.....
I could have sworn you said SBR.

Steak break room XD
 

Emblem Lord

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I play Marth. I can punish MK's D-smash on block on pure reaction.

Why? Because he does two slashes and because the attack has a distinct sound that let's me know it's a d-smash that let's me know I can shield drop to DB.

It's not hard.

If it's not spaced properly I can just up b and thanks to the buffer system I don't even need to be perfect. As long as I'm near the frames when the shield stun ends MK will eat Dolphin Slash for dinner.

Frames and punishment is just math. I DEFINITELY don't need to go to a tournament to learn math.

I would HOPE no one else would either.
 

Zankoku

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The way tech chasing works is by taking advantage of the small window of vulnerability the character has when that character cannot take any actions yet. There is nothing strictly safe on block in Smash, especially if you include powershielding. The only reason people say that MK fsmash is safe on block is because a 3-frame disadvantage isn't enough to work with from a normal shield. MK's dsmash is most certainly not safe on block unless you didn't see the dsmash coming at all and just happened to be shielding. This will maybe happen like two or three times a game per person, when they're psyched into shielding against some potential attack that might happen. This does not happen on nearly every dsmash that MK will do.
 

Emblem Lord

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MK's D-smash leaves him at -25.

That's...a long a$$ time for a fighting game.

More then enough time to shield drop punish.
 

Flayl

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I play Marth. I can punish MK's D-smash on block on pure reaction.

Why? Because he does two slashes and because the attack has a distinct sound that let's me know it's a d-smash that let's me know I can shield drop to DB.

It's not hard.
That's great but:
1- It was an example, you're reading too much into it.
2- Not everybody is Marth, lol.
 

Emblem Lord

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I'm just saying that if you know what to look for, it's not hard to analyze movesets.
 
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