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Should IC chaingrabs be allowed in tournaments?
- Thread starter Hylian
- Start date
Zanix
Smash Cadet
What I have learned from this thread:
The arguement, at least against Xyro is pointless. He obviously doesn't care about what anyone thinks, as he hasn't posted anything useful for a while.
I however support the CG. Whatever gets you the win and doesn't break the competitive scene right? I look at it the same way I look at RTS's now-a-days. Most competition in RTS's have boiled down to who can produce the most of a single unit in the shortest amount of time. Is it stratagy? I don't think so, but it works, so people use it. While that doesn't really compare to this too much, it just shows the basic competitive drive to win. Something may go against how other people think you should play the game, but if it helps you win, and doesn't make everyone just go to using that same thing all the time, why worry about it until testing is done?
The arguement, at least against Xyro is pointless. He obviously doesn't care about what anyone thinks, as he hasn't posted anything useful for a while.
I however support the CG. Whatever gets you the win and doesn't break the competitive scene right? I look at it the same way I look at RTS's now-a-days. Most competition in RTS's have boiled down to who can produce the most of a single unit in the shortest amount of time. Is it stratagy? I don't think so, but it works, so people use it. While that doesn't really compare to this too much, it just shows the basic competitive drive to win. Something may go against how other people think you should play the game, but if it helps you win, and doesn't make everyone just go to using that same thing all the time, why worry about it until testing is done?
Xyro77
Unity Ruleset Committee Member
BBQ???????????
rogueyoshi
Smash Rookie
due to its insane difficulty (plus the fact that you need different timings for lots of different characters) i think the ic chaingrabs should be allowed. its only useful to those that bother to practice it, and thats fine in my book.
hippochinfat!!
Smash Lord
I really don't like them but they're hard to do unlike other chainthrows.
People seem to be forgetting that their range sucks. In melee they had wavedashing to make up for this but not anymore.
People seem to be forgetting that their range sucks. In melee they had wavedashing to make up for this but not anymore.
SonicLucario
Smash Journeyman
While I may not like them.They are hard to do and have bad range.So, I say leave it alone.
everlasting yayuhzz
Smash Champion
You people do realize difficulty isn't a factor in determining this, right? If it's possible, it will be mastered.
gantrain05
Smash Master
well i know this is a big subject, but being as i do play bowser a hella lot, i don't really like those IC grabs but, when im in a tourney when am i seriously gonna be using bowser unless its doubles? so i guess idc if they ban it or not as i dont' use it at all, but when i'm playing someone who's gonna use it im not gonna be a character who's easy to do it to anyways.
N1c2k3
Smash Lord
I've been an advocate since ppl started complaining about it in Melee. I've always used the "play another fighting game like Marvel and you'll have nothing to come back and complain about" argument, but I don't think this pertains to this aspect specifically. I think it should stay, moreso than I did even in Melee, and here's why: Just think about how the physics of the game have changed. The removal of WD'ing, easier spacing, and all around increased "safeness" of most attacks must equate to an increased difficulty in grabbing (just for IC's, I'm talking). I 1st thought this was going to be the result of these changes when Brawl first cameout, and even though I haven't played the game extremely extensively yet, it seems to me that my guesses were correct. Again, I know this doesn't pertain to the difficulty of performing any of the techniques, nor the possibilities escaping, but I believe it's necessary to consider these factors when debating the subject. That's all...
old king coal
Smash Journeyman
Gindler
Smash Champion
If you ban them you're going to have to ban Diddy cause he has bananas, metaknight and marth cause they have swords and snake cause he has nades. If you went after every characters best attribute we'd only get to choose from a very limited amount of characters.
S_B
Too Drunk to Smash
Characters were not balanced around infinite grabs. Dedede's "best attribute" is not the ability to kill certain characters with a single grab.
Please stop comparing unintended errors in the physics of the game to a character's useful moves.
socandrewcer
Smash Lord
The Ice Climber chain grab is skill.
And skill should not be banned.
And skill should not be banned.
I have to say I am just begining to pick up the IC's and That rule is the stupidest rule ever.
If you are going to Limit IC's CG to 3 AND INCLUDED A NANA GRAB AS COUNTING TOWARDS THAN NUMBER!
you have to Limit DDD to 3 also not 5 It is bull**** to put a tighter limit on Ice climbers CG's than DDD's
Especially since IC chaingrabs at higher %'s are much more difficult to do than DDD's D throw.
I am refering to the huston thread by the way
If you are going to Limit IC's CG to 3 AND INCLUDED A NANA GRAB AS COUNTING TOWARDS THAN NUMBER!
you have to Limit DDD to 3 also not 5 It is bull**** to put a tighter limit on Ice climbers CG's than DDD's
Especially since IC chaingrabs at higher %'s are much more difficult to do than DDD's D throw.
I am refering to the huston thread by the way
Tee ay eye
Smash Hero
It's not about skill, really. Thing is, this is pretty easy to do consistently if you have it down. And another thing is, it's impossible to get out of this 0-death CG.
Also, I've seen a CGing ICs place second at a tourney with some pretty good people at it. The person who placed first used Meta Knight and exploited that horrible matchup for ICs by spamming d-airs and tornadoes in case you want to know.
I've allowed it to a certain percent to prevent stalling.
But that's it.
When the majority of North American tournaments declare it banned in their tournaments, I'll ban it too =_=
But that's it.
When the majority of North American tournaments declare it banned in their tournaments, I'll ban it too =_=
gantrain05
Smash Master
i don't understand why this would be banned, hell i main lucas and ness, and just about every freakin character can infinite me, but u know what i get around it and i actually place pretty well in tournies, (5th out of 29 just last week) and honestly, the IC's probably have the hardest chaingrab to pull off, and its not like there are alot of ice climbers out there anyways, im more concerned about the rediculous amound of snakes and metaknights, THOSE are broken characters, leave the IC's alone, being a ness/lucas main i know how it feels to be gimped and to be infinite grabbed, but there are always ways around it, counterpick stages, u can ban stages, play more defensively, do anything, its not gamebreaking it should be allowed.
QFT
You either ban all infinites, or leave them alone. I'm going for the last one.
Metà
Smash Master
Who are you to say it was unintended? They intended for the move to have set knock-back, and they gave him a good grab reach; by doing an infinite using this, we're just working with what they gave us, regardless of whether it was 'intentional' or not, because that doesn't matter. You don't know what they intended, even though you can use your best judgement to deduce it. Just play the game with the set of tools that the game gives you and play to win, or don't play competitvely; nobody is making you play against people that would use this technique.
Deal with the game through playing it, not by banning what you think is cheap or 'unintended'. We ban stages, items, and other things like that, we only ban techniques when absolutely necessary, and I honestly don't see banning infinites as being necessary; at least not at this point in the game.
I don't care if it gets limited.....I am just pissed that the huston thread wants to puts diffrent limits on diffrent characters chaing grabs.
3 for IC 5 for DDD and nana counts as a CG
Just because one CG is better than another doesn't mean it should be limited more. If that were the case I would make everybody play metaknight only once out of thier 3 matches and make them choose a low tier character for the other 2. (that is an extreme case of exageration when you use diffrent limitations)
3 for IC 5 for DDD and nana counts as a CG
Just because one CG is better than another doesn't mean it should be limited more. If that were the case I would make everybody play metaknight only once out of thier 3 matches and make them choose a low tier character for the other 2. (that is an extreme case of exageration when you use diffrent limitations)
Xyro77
Unity Ruleset Committee Member
YoU ARE STILL F*CKING crying about this? DEAR GOD, LET iT GO! Its MY city, so its MY rules. I get 80+ people at my events EVERY TIME. They can deal with the rules so why cant you? Oh wait, yor probly one of the 2007-2008 members who picked up DDD or IC just so you can win becuase you F*CKING suck at this game.
When a move cannot be escaped from easily....ill deal with it. But when a move works on ANY character at ANY % on ANY stage and it can be stoped only when the person who is doing it wants it to. THATS AN INFINITE. DDD chain grab becomes an infinite on 5 chars....F*UCK THAT, its banned. Marths infinite on ness and lucas.........H3LL NO, its banned. IC infinite is a no brain-er ban.
I tried talking to you about this in PMs but i guess you are a DUMB **** and cant handle that ONE D@MN city in ENTIRE USA is banning INFINITES.
I am firm on my standing and the entire city of HOUSTON,TX backs me up..........so STFU and deal with it.
PS: just for you(wimp) ill extend IC gabs to 5.
takeurlife2
Smash Ace
InterimOfZeal
Smash Champion
Wait, you're banning DDDs and Marth's? Okay, now we're talking. You and D need to get ahold of me, so we can fine-tune this stuff.
okiyama
Smash Ace
QFT
Althoguh you can only control your own tourneys, not all of a city, like if I made an ICs only tourney and banned all stages but FD and banned all moves but grab in houston I'd get a small turn out but you couldn't really stop me.
But if you do convince an entire city and they choose to ban it themselves that's fair.
gantrain05
Smash Master
lmao, "your" city ah good stuff.
Aesir
Smash Master
I'm pretty sure "your city" belongs to the USA.
Dekar173
Justice Man
Caps Lock Cruise Control Steering Used For Extra Emphasis
Ness And Lucas Can Both Be Chaingrabbed To Death By Marth. Why Am I Saying This? Well, Marth's Chaingrab Requires Much Less Skill, It's Holding R And Pressing A, Two Buttons. Ice Climbers Is Memorizing Exactly When To Input What Buttons On Which Character, All The While Taking Into Account Sdi Which Can In Fact Be Used To Escape The Grab, You Are A Woman If You Believe That This Skillful Use Of A Part Of The Game Should Be Banned From Tournament Play. Someone Found Out That Nana Actually Listens In This Game, And Used It! Get Over It, You Are Extremely Bad. The Most That Should Be Enforced In This Case Is A Limit On Exactly How Many Grabs Can Be Performed In A Row, Not A Ban Entirely.
I Am A Ness Main, And I Have To Put Up With Marth Players And Am Required To Avoid Being Grabbed At All Tourneys. You Can Do Likewise Against The Ice Climbers, Considering You're A Samus Main And Don't Even Have To Get Up Close To Actually Hit Someone. I Need To Use Caps Lock Because Speaking In An "indoor Voice" Via The Forums Isn't Going To Communicate My Point Properly. Sdi Out Of The Cg, Don't Get Grabbed, And Stop Being A Woman.
tl;dr IT'S A PART OF THE GAME, JUST AS WAVEDASHING AND L-CANCELING WERE. LEARN IT AND USE IT YOURSELF, OR DON'T WHINE AND PLAY CASUALLY WHERE YOU BELONG.
Ness And Lucas Can Both Be Chaingrabbed To Death By Marth. Why Am I Saying This? Well, Marth's Chaingrab Requires Much Less Skill, It's Holding R And Pressing A, Two Buttons. Ice Climbers Is Memorizing Exactly When To Input What Buttons On Which Character, All The While Taking Into Account Sdi Which Can In Fact Be Used To Escape The Grab, You Are A Woman If You Believe That This Skillful Use Of A Part Of The Game Should Be Banned From Tournament Play. Someone Found Out That Nana Actually Listens In This Game, And Used It! Get Over It, You Are Extremely Bad. The Most That Should Be Enforced In This Case Is A Limit On Exactly How Many Grabs Can Be Performed In A Row, Not A Ban Entirely.
I Am A Ness Main, And I Have To Put Up With Marth Players And Am Required To Avoid Being Grabbed At All Tourneys. You Can Do Likewise Against The Ice Climbers, Considering You're A Samus Main And Don't Even Have To Get Up Close To Actually Hit Someone. I Need To Use Caps Lock Because Speaking In An "indoor Voice" Via The Forums Isn't Going To Communicate My Point Properly. Sdi Out Of The Cg, Don't Get Grabbed, And Stop Being A Woman.
tl;dr IT'S A PART OF THE GAME, JUST AS WAVEDASHING AND L-CANCELING WERE. LEARN IT AND USE IT YOURSELF, OR DON'T WHINE AND PLAY CASUALLY WHERE YOU BELONG.
Jack Kieser
Smash Champion
If tournament entry numbers are to be believed, Xyro77 is also one of, if not the, premier TO's in the Houston area. If his tournaments are as big as the numbers suggest, then for all intents and purposes his rules will most likely end up being the rules of Houston (at least until the SBR gives us something concrete to work with). If this is the case, and his rules are not only working, but are successful and are pulling in many entrants, who are we to judge him? Sure, the ego in his statement might need a tweak, but with the numbers Houston area tournaments have been pulling, it can afford to be (to a degree).
The man has a system for the Houston area, and more importantly, it's working. That says something.
The man has a system for the Houston area, and more importantly, it's working. That says something.
LeeHarris
Smash Lord
Houston has the coolest smashers and the coolest arcade in the world.
I thought this topic went down a long time ago...anyway I will still stand by the argument that chain grabs have always been part of the game and banning them is both silly and ultimately unenforceable unless you are recording every station. Just be prepared for both false and true accusations of chain grabbing and be aware that you will likely never know who was right.
Nevertheless, xyro is right that he can run his own tournaments the way he wants to.
Nevertheless, xyro is right that he can run his own tournaments the way he wants to.
Doggalina
Smash Lord
http://www.sirlin.net/ptw/intermediates-guide/what-should-be-banned/
With CGs in general, you're going to either going to have to ban them completely or not ban them at all. If for instance, you say that ICs can only grab 3 times in a row, then that's what they'll do. Then they'll stop, jab or something, and do it 3 more times. If you ban DDD infiniting for 5 regrabs, then what he'll do it for 4. Then he'll let his opponent go, jab or something, then start over again.Sirlin said:
Ayaz18
Smash Champion
nahh that's too much I say they can try it once per stock on their opponent, the IC I play can do a zero to death CG on their first or second time usually. And the "don't get grabbed" statement is bull crap. In melee grabs were their specialty but still the speed was so high that it was hard to get grabbed, and every grabbed missed could be punished into a combo where in Brawl if the IC mess up the after lag of the grab isn't too punishable, the most you can punish it is probably a tilt which isn't really effective (unless your Snake).
Xyro77
Unity Ruleset Committee Member
Again, you people dont get it.....im not banning CGs. Im banning INFINITE CGs.
TGM...just don't respond. It doesn't matter what they think really.
To everyone else:
I hate TGM's rules. I don't think ANY of the stuff he has banned should be. Wall infinites banned? LOL. Reguardless of what you think, you are NOT going to convince him. So don't bother. They are HIS tournaments. He will run them how he wants. You can't change that.
Even when the SBR releases the ruleset and most of America uses it, I doubt TGM will. So leave him alone.
To everyone else:
I hate TGM's rules. I don't think ANY of the stuff he has banned should be. Wall infinites banned? LOL. Reguardless of what you think, you are NOT going to convince him. So don't bother. They are HIS tournaments. He will run them how he wants. You can't change that.
Even when the SBR releases the ruleset and most of America uses it, I doubt TGM will. So leave him alone.
Xyro77
Unity Ruleset Committee Member
When SBR releases thier rules.....i will fully accept thier orders.
Xyro77
Unity Ruleset Committee Member
in melee i did the same thing.Wow really???
O.O. If so, I just gained a lot more respect for you.
im just in waiting for the brawl sbr rules. hylian i know you probly cant say much about what u see back there....but are the close to posting some sort or rule set?
Immortal_One
Smash Apprentice
I main with the IC's, and the chain grab is something that has to be mastered, it's not anything easy to learn, so I wouldn't be in favor of banning it. It took me a while to perfect the chain grab, what with the aiming and all.