Should IC chaingrabs be allowed in tournaments?

[Kal]

Thanks for the advice. I try too often to convert concise mathematical statements into English sentences, and it fails epically.

Yeah, in high school my English teacher thought it would be a good idea to teach us informal logical fallacies instead of actual English, and we learned "ad hominem" as what I mentioned earlier.

I like the "wait and see" idea. It doesn't seem sensible to ban the CG as a precaution against its excessive use. It makes more sense to wait until it becomes used in such a way to actually ban it.

 

[Sundown]

Banning is the LAST ANAWER to a problem, not the FIRST.

What he did is wrong, if in the future, 10 or 15 tournaments are all DOMINATED BY IC (and by that i mean 4 charcaters from the top 5 in every of the said tournaments are IC), then you can think about banning the tactic, but at this time.... oh god for crying out loud, tournaments are being dominated by SNAKE (look at tournament results lol and NO... im not saying we should ban snake). What im saying is that this is insultingly stupid... banning is the LAST answer, this guy is banning this technique before it even proves ban worthy... you can only ban a technique when it dominates the meta game... WHAT HAVE IC done in tournaments besides what hylian did???!!! NOTHING

Oh my god i cant believe it :S

 

[Nintendude]

This is pretty ludicrous. As others have said, I don't see why someone should even consider banning the IC chaingrabs when IC players are hardly getting anywhere in tournaments. Characters like MK and Snake, on the other hand, are owning tournaments everywhere. Why place limits on a character not doing well to begin with?

 

[KosukeKGA]

You guys should allow Hylian to do his infinite ICs CGs. Go out there and show everyone how unbalanced Brawl is, Hylian! =]

 

[kagemaru696]

I did get the chance to read up both arguments and considering that ICs 'could be' or 'possibly' broken from CGing well that like saying...

(Capt. Olimar) "Well with my slaves, i'll just spam my way to the top! No one can top the constant throwing of my pikmin, while unearthly racking up damage, I'll just throw them or down smash them to obvilion!!!!!"

*gets knocks off stage and is "properly edgeguarded"*

Dammit, forgot about that....

...Sorry getting back on topic...

The as others have said, the ban IS too quick to be given since, even seeing videos of the ICs CGs in action, they are not broken. A good Ike can beat ICs... like mine... *smiles*

But seriously, Falco and DDD are far more threating than those dirty little mexicans. But there are ways to counter such things, even DDD's standing infinites and Falco's laser lock and such. But truthfully, banning the CGs and other things will not stop other techniques to be found. We lost l-cancel and wavedashing to dashing up-smashes (all characters), "superarmor".

To be truthfully, I saw someone type something like "banning wobbling to late, we could only say sorry to the ones that was beaten by it" or something like that. I say... so what? Hell I was beating terribly by wobbling before, but found a way to overcome it with training my luigi, and gotten pretty good. I didn't get a chance to fight that guy again, but well, hey who to say I wouldn't his *** if we battle again. But to end my little speech here with this.

"Everything is not all what it seems..."

 

[Rob_Gambino]

TGM, you should have stuck with only being known for your dash attack jokes.

 

[omegawhitemage]

Until it starts winning tournament, no decent tournament organizer will ban it. End of story.

 

[S2]

Until it starts winning tournament, no decent tournament organizer will ban it. End of story.

Quoted for truth.

Discussion over this is minor since the infinite grabs haven't landed ICs into big tournament wins yet.

If IC infinites become a problem, then the community will figure out what to do about it. Nothing get's banned due to it's theoretical impact on tournament play.

 

[Aesir]

The fact that Samurai panda's post got ignored really speaks loudly about how narrow minded some of us are.

Dazwa pointed this out to me during MM9, he was able to break right of a grab instantly while he was trying to do a jab combo.

Honestly I haven't seen an IC place well ever, hell I've never even seen an IC win a match, this is so premature it would have been like for TO's to ban SHL back in 02'

 

[Dark Sonic]

In the SBR, we've begun to notice a few things about breaking grabs, but nobody has gone through and tested things out yet. It seems that there are 2 things people have been throwing around here and there: Timing the A button, or timing the shield button, at the same time as you're grabbed results in you breaking the grab. Of course, I'm not talking about grabs breaking because of elevation differences.

If someone here would like to test this out some more, please do. And try not to use training mode, it seems there are quite a few things that are different in training mode for some reason.

WHY HAS NO ONE BEEN TESTING THIS!!!!

Goodbyd DDD chaingrab. Goodbye Falco chaingrab. Goodbye Ice climbers infinites
(though the release grab things still work if you still use the grab break animation).

Seriously, me and my friends are going to definately check this out this week.

 

[wWw Dazwa]

Until it starts winning tournament, no decent tournament organizer will ban it. End of story.

this

Dazwa pointed this out to me during MM9, he was able to break right of a grab instantly while he was trying to do a jab combo.

not only did I never demonstrate it to you
1. I told you on AIM about it
2. I told you another person had posted saying that
3. I told you I had instant-broken before but didn't know if it was an actual technique or simply due to a glitch
4. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSfyVYEEoK8

 

[Aesir]

I totally misunderstood you then LOL, my bad D:

 

[Melee1]

The only offical gamesite is MLGpro and banning iceclimbers will never happen. TGM sucked at melee and he has no right to bann them. It takes skill and timing to use cg and countless hours to master. Why not bann everyone?

 

[Xyro77]

i sucked at melee? ROFL! you 07-08 members know nothing. you never have and it will take u about 2 years to knwo anything.

if u want the whole low down on why i banned the broke move, go to the IC baord and read on the last or 2nd last page.

 

[Aesir]

you're banning it pre-mature, which is scrub like..>_>

 

[Sundown]

It doesnt matter if he was godlike in melee, what matters is that he is doing a premature ban before this proves itself ban worthy, and thats scrub-mentality :S.

As i already said, go ban this when IC dominate tournaments thanks to these technique the way Snakes are ****** tournaments as of now... i really cant believe this dude is KILLING the metagame before it even develops, its just amazing what hes doing hahaha. Sucks to be Texan, no one else will pull this **** off

 

[IronChief]

IC users get so much ****, next thing you know IC will become banned.

 

[Qzzy]

It's not even a matter if they start winning a majority of tournaments. Snake as a whole character is doing that right now and we're not trying to ban him. That just means they're good characters. Top tier.

We should only ban the infinite if it comes to the point where no other character has a chance fighting against infinite using IC's, (which i really don't think will happen, but whatever).

We should not be banning it just b/c we _think_ they it will make IC's become broken, or else we'll deprive ourselves developing.

 

[tsl]

TGM got pwned by Hylian. Kal got pwned by labyrinth. That much is clear. Now let me tell you what will happen:

This thread will mean relatively little in the history of Brawl, and IC's CG(s) will not be banned at the majority of tournaments. Those pwned in this thread, however, will ban IC CG(s) because they will not want to admit that they were wrong. Hylian (among others) will never attend another Houston tourney. This is what will end up happening and there is nothing anyone can do to stop it.

[/end discussion]

Proceed to move on with your lives.

 

[M3D]

Anyone banning the IC chain grabs at this point in the game is a moron. Plain and simple. If they make stupid bans like that, just don't go to their tournaments. If no one is going to tournaments with moronic rulesets, the TO can either change the rule to get people to come back or keep having worthless little 5-man tournaments that no one cares about anyways. You guys have the power. If the rules suck, don't go.

The moral of the story? Don't go to a tournament hosted by Xyro.

 

[dawgbowl]

This is why pokemon stadiums should be the only two neutral stages and all the other legals should be counterpicks. (but that not the topic at hand, but it would solve some problems.)

Anyway, I agree with all the people who said IC's shouldn't be banned until they are cleaning up every single tournament with the infinite. Chances are with the "ZOMG SNAKE/METAKNIGHT/FALCO/PIT" players which amounts to 80% of tournaments this issue will never get out of hand.

As of now, they aren't even coming close to destroying in tournaments so I say let'm keep on chain grabbing.

 

[tsl]

This is why pokemon stadiums should be the only two neutral stages and all the other legals should be counterpicks. (but that not the topic at hand, but it would solve some problems.)

Pokemon Stadium 2 is hardly neutral. I'm surprised this stage is even allowed as a counterpick. The transformations are as bad as Wario Ware in terms of impeding a match. It should be banned altogether.

 

[thesage]

Actually about that instant grab breaking out thingy. That has happened to me multiple times. One time I jump broke immediately out of a grab at like 164 percent w/ Ness. This could be the solution to ruining grab-release cgs.

 

[SabinFigaro24]

I see any attempt to ban any character for any reason, no matter what it is, as an attempt to undermine an individual. The amount of drama that would have been created by ICs winning a tournament with an 'exploit' couldn't hold a candle to this.

Not to mention that it's obviously way too early in this game to start banning moves or characters, when nobody actually understands the nuances yet. There's a whole lot of "hey, I broke a grab early doing x and it might be possible to ....." with nobody refuting it - but the ban is still being considered?

Next, moves are going to be banned after we watch a few trailers before it's even playable. Ban Kirby's downsmash in '2012! I know I'm being melodramatic, and the slipperly slope argument won't hold around here, but I honestly don't get why this is even an issue until it's presented itself as one.

 

[Metà]

i sucked at melee? ROFL! you 07-08 members know nothing. you never have and it will take u about 2 years to knwo anything.

I've already been beaten to the punch with every point I wanted to make in this thread (in support of ALL infinites in Brawl), but I can't resist responding to this.

Could you be any more elitist? Do you really think you're better than someone (or even more knowledgeable about Smash in general) because you registered before them? I've seen you post, and I've seen you play, and I can tell you that on average you couldn't be more ****ing wrong. I know the only two things you can take pride in are being a '03 SWF member and having coining the 'TGM Combo', but your arrogance is still completely un-warranted.

In short: stop being a presumptuous d*ck.

 

[omegawhitemage]

Anyone banning the IC chain grabs at this point in the game is a moron. Plain and simple. If they make stupid bans like that, just don't go to their tournaments. If no one is going to tournaments with moronic rulesets, the TO can either change the rule to get people to come back or keep having worthless little 5-man tournaments that no one cares about anyways. You guys have the power. If the rules suck, don't go.

The moral of the story? Don't go to a tournament hosted by Xyro.

QFT .

 

[InterimOfZeal]

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

Wow, this thread was too much fun to read. TGM sucked at Melee, and he sucks at Brawl.

Hylian, screw Houston. Texas sucks at Brawl anyway, mmhmm. Come out to Colorado, where people are actually decent at the game. We need an IC player, anyway. I can't, for the life of me, dedicate enough time to bother learning the IC infinites. The timing is pretty precise, and it's so much easier to just pick Snake, or something stupid like that.

 

[R i p]

I'm not going to get too deep into. I'll just quote a few lines of what I thought was a poor post and say own opinion.

The goal is to have Brawl as a competitive game. I think some people might have missed the memo or somewhere forgot what that means. Banning something is a big thing. It has to be absolutely necessary and has to have strong evidence to do so.

The questions must be answered:

Why will you ban this?

If the answer can only be answered with theorycraft then it is already invalid. You can say something is unfair and broken, but those are just words. They have no meaning. You MUST post evidence or your ban is destroying the integrity of the game and yourself. I have yet to see evidence for the case that they should been ban, yet I can clearly see a lot of evidence on why they should not be.

Evidence. Not "I theorize since IC can chaingrab they are the most broken characters in the game". No, that is not evidence. It is a theory. You need evidence. If tournaments(full of people who play to win) are being dominated by IC, then that would be evidence. Have I stressed this enough? Evidence.

Now, more importantly: If you cannot prove that the chainthrows do not upset the metagame that means they are not unbalancing not matter how "cheap" they are. In this game, nothing is cheap. Infinites, camping, chainthrows, and so are acceptable as long as they do not upset the metagame. So what if some characters can instantly kill certain characters with a grab? You adapt. This is how competitive gaming works. Provide evidence that Ice Climbers will destroy the metagame or otherwise I don't see the point. Understand you are changing the gameplay. I can only hope you do, but the fact you are doing it without evidence makes me wonder.


Kal, I've only read one of your posts and it is the only one I intend on reading.

ad-hominem.

I'm sure you know what ad-hominem is right? Then why are bringing it up when Hylian hasn't committed this fallacy. Just to be safe I'll explain it to you. Hylian is providing an argument. And saying "You are wrong" is not ad-hominem. I really, really hope you don't make this mistake again. It's not becoming of you.

 

[ShadowLink84]

It makes no sense to ban one infinite unless you ban all of them.

 

[Rebel581]

M3D pretty much summed it up. It's not ban worthy yet. It may eventually get banned, but it has to win major tournaments first.

 

[KevinM]

Whoops TGM got beat in a logical argument, QUICK bring up join dates!

*nods*

As M3d said and OWM said, no major tourney is going to ban it this prematurely especially when it's not proven game breaking

 

[Gindler]

I think they should be allowed in tournaments. I mean at my last tournament I was allowed to infinite a wario with my yoshi (and he was probably better than me, but with an infinite it's hard to lose), and someone was allowed to infinite my ness with marth. The "officials" didn't know what to do at all since it's still early in the game so they just let it happen, as for IC chaingrabs I've never seen a deadly one I seems to escape when they try to do the spike one thanks to super armor, but I'm sure it's not as easy as the yoshi/wario or the marth/ness infinites so I think they should be allowed to some degree at least.

 

[Ice Climbers P and N]

They should be allowed, most people use the Ice Climbers just to master the grabs.

I on the other hand, used them since 2001. Favourite at first sight....

 

[S_B]

Any and all infintes should be banned.

The point of any competitive game is to win within the confines of the mechanics of the game, true, but in a perfect world, Sakurai would've spent less time on the pathetic and worthless single player mode and more time beta testing the game to ensure that fewer game-breaking mechanics slipped through the cracks.

Banning it is simple: you get three chain grabs and can't regrab in the same chain again. It's easy to count the number of grabs and people will know in the rules that it's not allowed past three.

Any player who uses an infinite grab to win a game (I don't care how "hard" it may be to do) probably isn't the best player there and therefore doesn't deserve to win.

We have to accept the fact that just because something is in the game, it doesn't mean it was intended to be in the game and it could very well ruin the competitive continuity of the game.

Ness players shouldn't have to fear someone counterpicking Marth because Brawl wasn't properly tested.

 

[Aesir]

Any and all infintes should be banned.

The point of any competitive game is to win within the confines of the mechanics of the game, true, but in a perfect world, Sakurai would've spent less time on the pathetic and worthless single player mode and more time beta testing the game to ensure that fewer game-breaking mechanics slipped through the cracks.

Banning it is simple: you get three chain grabs and can't regrab in the same chain again. It's easy to count the number of grabs and people will know in the rules that it's not allowed past three.

Any player who uses an infinite grab to win a game (I don't care how "hard" it may be to do) probably isn't the best player there and therefore doesn't deserve to win.

We have to accept the fact that just because something is in the game, it doesn't mean it was intended to be in the game and it could very well ruin the competitive continuity of the game.

Ness players should have to fear someone counterpicking Marth because Brawl wasn't properly tested.

First off lol.

Secondly, okay I'm assuming you haven't been in competitive play very long to have such a narrow minded view of infinites. It shouldn't be banned because it's an infinite it should be banned if it proves to break the game.

There isn't any solid evidence that it breaks the game. Only hearsay and frankly that isn't enough to ban a technique.

 

[S_B]

First off lol.

Secondly, okay I'm assuming you haven't been in competitive play very long to have such a narrow minded view of infinites. It shouldn't be banned because it's an infinite it should be banned if it proves to break the game.

There isn't any solid evidence that it breaks the game. Only hearsay and frankly that isn't enough to ban a technique.

This isn't a "technique". Wavedashing was a technique, and it wasn't game breaking because it added to the game without easily taking a player from 0%-death.

But this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WiW90quHDqg&feature=related

And this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dijmBkC3_HE&feature=related

What's "narrow minded" about suggesting that this wasn't an intended feature of the game and is, in fact, game ruining?

If you need an infinite combo to beat someone, you don't deserve to win, plain and simple.

How is this even a debate?

 

[Xyro77]

You guys are still arguing over this? LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[S_B]

You guys are still arguing over this? LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

To be fair, this is my first time in this thread so I'm technically the one throwing fuel on the fire here.

 

[Foxy]

IC chain grab banning has no basis and should never be implemented. I have a friend who plays IC's very well, and he recently took them to a tourney and even though his chain grabs dealt a ton of damage and were inescapable, they weren't at all game-breaking and didn't win him the tourney or any match by default.

In fact, I beat his IC's every match with nearly any character simply because his game is focused around grabs and I space well enough to punish his attempts.

Without wavedashing (which made IC grabs in Melee VERY hard to avoid) and JC grabs (another thing that made their grabs faster), players should have no problem beating IC's in Brawl if they space right.

And come on - they can't even wobble, and the equivalent 0-kill is a lot more difficult to perform in Brawl. Let's reward practice rather than prematurely banning something less broken than Snake's ftilt.

 

[Aesir]

This isn't a "technique". Wavedashing was a technique, and it wasn't game breaking because it added to the game without easily taking a player from 0%-death.

But this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WiW90quHDqg&feature=related

And this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dijmBkC3_HE&feature=related

What's "narrow minded" about suggesting that this wasn't an intended feature of the game and is, in fact, game ruining?

If you need an infinite combo to beat someone, you don't deserve to win, plain and simple.

How is this even a debate?

It hasn't won tourneys, it hasn't proven to be broken.


It's narrow minded to think a few videos showcasing it is going to get banned. You haven't proven it's broken only good. Since when did we start banning things that were good? I'm pretty sure we haven't become ******** yet and our minds can comprehend good and to good.


It's not broken because it hasn't proven to be broken yet, when it's proven to be broken then we'll start talking about banning things until then quit your *****ing.