kamekasu
Smash Ace
The reason people started to consider banning the melee IC infinite was because Wobbles ***** so hard at NCT2. It doesn't look like there has been a single tournament so far where an IC player has done as well in Brawl.
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Should IC chaingrabs be allowed in tournaments?
- Thread starter Hylian
- Start date
- Joined
- Apr 23, 2005
- Messages
- 2,617
Actually the infinite on Ness/Lucas is silly easy to do but it doesn't remove them from being used. They will just be counterpick characters, the same as some characters were in Melee because of Sheik. No game is perfectly balanced and this is just another example. Deal with it and stop *****ing already.
Infinityunl
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Dec 15, 2006
- Messages
- 11
Hehe i got booed once for doing that infinite with marth on ness at a tourney. It was funny 
but i never really was able to do it 100%. My shield kept coming up =/
but i never really was able to do it 100%. My shield kept coming up =/
JPOBS
Smash Hero
can IC cg IC infinitely?
if they cant, then everyone jsut play Ic. simple. problem solved.
if they cant, then everyone jsut play Ic. simple. problem solved.
popsofctown
Smash Champion
They shouldn't have booed you. You play to win with all the rules that were given out before the tournament began.
Anyway, i think it is clear that you shouldn't ban the tactic until the Ice Climbers show some results. And that's when you know it needs to be banned.
And if that time comes, I don't think it should be banned by a rule. I hate playing video games by a rule, worrying about an input that will DQ me. It would be better to just create a stage that severely limits the Ice Climbers' ability to chaing grab, and then announce that that stage is "neutral", and so neutral that Ice Climbers' have to play there if their opponent requests it. It would also be available for counterpick. That means first round, they try to win without a stage that favors chain grabs, second round, they counterpick FD and chain grab a win, third round, they try for a second time to win without a stage that favors chain grabs. Two chances to win the whole set, pretty fair and balanced to me.
Anyway, i think it is clear that you shouldn't ban the tactic until the Ice Climbers show some results. And that's when you know it needs to be banned.
And if that time comes, I don't think it should be banned by a rule. I hate playing video games by a rule, worrying about an input that will DQ me. It would be better to just create a stage that severely limits the Ice Climbers' ability to chaing grab, and then announce that that stage is "neutral", and so neutral that Ice Climbers' have to play there if their opponent requests it. It would also be available for counterpick. That means first round, they try to win without a stage that favors chain grabs, second round, they counterpick FD and chain grab a win, third round, they try for a second time to win without a stage that favors chain grabs. Two chances to win the whole set, pretty fair and balanced to me.
Infinityunl
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Dec 15, 2006
- Messages
- 11
Heheh it was even funnier because a large percent of the entrants didnt know about the infinite xD
S_B
Too Drunk to Smash
No, I've pointed out that when pitting two players of similar skill against each other, it's safe to assume that they will land grabs on each other at some point during the match.
For the fifth time, I'm NOT talking about the ICs! In my last post, I even acknowledged that their infinite is so difficult to do that it qualifies as a metagame skill.
You've asserted that the game is not broken and that, as such, the problems with infinite grabs I've mentioned is incorrect.
That being the case, you ask me to "prove" that the game is broken because of these infinites and what they entail for specific characters.
Fair enough: there are no recent high-profile tournaments with money prizes where players have chosen Ness, Bowser, DK, Samus, Mario or Luigi when the other player could choose a counterpick.
These characters aren't all crap, but no one will dare pick them for fear that their counter will be a Marth or D3 who can infinite them.
S_B
Too Drunk to Smash
I found that it never fails if you hold shield while mashing A.
But what about Samus, DK, Mario and Luigi being infinited by D3 as a counterpick?
D3's good, but he isn't really a counter to any of these characters without having the infinite over them.
My discussion has long since left the ICs behind, but this is a good idea.
- Joined
- Apr 23, 2005
- Messages
- 2,617
It's actually a terrible idea as custom stages are near impossible to implement on a wide scale in tournaments.
Aesir
Smash Master
I never said the game was not broken I'm saying the infinite grabs aren't bad because they don't really break the game.
Other things break the game which I won't get into right now.
breaking 5 characters in just one match up is hardly game breaking at all. Its what we call a bad match up.
actually I've seen a good amount of those characters at 9th (I think) Esticle just don't use those said characters against their bad match ups. Or learn to deal with the infinite, thats what you're not understanding.
You just think if they can be infinite that it's a hopeless cause. Thats is simply not the case, just simply out play them sure it might be hard but it surely isn't impossible.
Welcome to competitive gaming, you'll find this the case in virtually all games on the competitive level.
S_B
Too Drunk to Smash
I was lobbying against infinites in general, really.
Given how easy they are to slap together, not really.
Depending upon how complex the stage is, it could take 2-3 minutes for the tournament host to build it, on average.
- Joined
- Apr 23, 2005
- Messages
- 2,617
It's not something that the TO should be worrying about. There are other more important things that need to be handled instead of creating a stage just so that the ic's can't CG someone. This idea will never happen.
So I won a tournament in Dallas last friday. ICG was not banned 
.
I was playing someone in tournament with ICs vs Ike, and started to infinite grab. Not only did the crowd cheer me on, my opponent was like " WOW!!! NICE!!!" while I was doing the 0 - Death.
Made me feel good. ICGs are fun to watch XD.
.I was playing someone in tournament with ICs vs Ike, and started to infinite grab. Not only did the crowd cheer me on, my opponent was like " WOW!!! NICE!!!" while I was doing the 0 - Death.
Made me feel good
. ICGs are fun to watch XD.
Big_R
Smash Champion
this should be banned cuz it doesn't look cool.
popsofctown
Smash Champion
I understand that at some point in this thread there was probably a lot of comparisons being made, and you got derailed. But you really should make a new topic if you want to talk about the other infinites, it gets confusing.
In general, I think create-a-stage has a lot of promise for competitive play. How can we complain about unbalances that were handed down to us by the creators, before we've made full and total use of the balancing tools they (accidentally or intentionally) gave to us?
Back on topic ~ Smash Brother, if you'd be so kind to make a new thread concerning only the Marth and Dedede chaingrabs, I'd love to join in.
S_B
Too Drunk to Smash
I know tiers would develop (happens with any fighting game) but I was saddened to see how quickly they developed in Brawl and to see how quickly certain characters plummeted to the bottom due to infinites against them.
I hear what you're saying, but this implies that you literally need to be 2-3X the player with Ness than the Marth player. I just don't see it as being realistic to expect a player to be so nimble and avoid grabs yet at the same time put up a solid offense. It's a moot point, though. It's in the game and most places don't seem interested in changing any rules.
He said that this could be done "If/when the ICs' infinite became a real issue". It'll likely never need to be enacted.
Sorry, I've managed to derail the hell out of this thread...
Aesir
Smash Master
People said the same thing about link vs shiek in melee.
Guess what skler does? >_> Beats Sheiks with link. (I don't think I've ever seen him loose to a shiek in tourney before.)
I don't think you've watched him play me before, no offense to skler, lol. It's a **** matchup.
It seems like most of the concerns you have about bad matchups, Smash_Brother, were already present and/or worse in Melee. So I'm not sure what you're getting at.
Aesir
Smash Master
nah just him beating plank over shadowed all the other **** times.
Xyro77
Unity Ruleset Committee Member
Smash Brother, keep it up. i like where this is going!
NO WHERE!!!!!!!!!
ROFLMAO
NO WHERE!!!!!!!!!
ROFLMAO
snadmonkey
Smash Journeyman
All i got to say is I played an IC that could kill me with 3 grabs. That gets really old really fast, when u consider how ez it is to land grabs in brawl. This guy didn't even use 0-death combos. This player couldn't even come close to me with his main, but with just rnadomly running around doing sidesteps rolls and dashes etc to grabs, made for an incredibly hard fight. D3 has the same concept with 1 of my mains but the biggest difference is that D3 can't kill me with his grab at 100% or less. Besides its not like the rest of IC's game is terrible, but the fact that I have to spend 95% of my time ensuring that he can't grab me just ruins the game for me. THis guy hasn't played the IC's for very long at all, and it saddens me that players can kill so easily. I'm still able to beat the player about half the time, but mostly because he jumps into my attacks, if he learned to be more defensive and mix up his approachs, I'd have no chance.
Ya ya, players like IKe can kill me in three moves or less to I know that, but they are a million times easier to avoid and punish.
Ya ya, players like IKe can kill me in three moves or less to I know that, but they are a million times easier to avoid and punish.
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
IC chain grabs should not be banned unless they have been proven to break the game. I'm talking ST Akuma kind of stuff. It's kind of nonsense to be banning things that haven't even been proven to be really "unfair." "Unfair" as in "the IC's are god tier because their chain throw bull**** is unbeatable."
Otherwise you're kind of arbitrarily imposing rules on something that might be fine; instead of coming up with a way to counter that strategy, you're running away from it. I'd rather let the metagame develop than limit it artificially. Then again, Brawl wasn't really designed for competitive play, so I'm open to the fact that "broken" strategies might very well exist - it's just that they should be proven to be detrimental to the metagame first, before they're banned.
Otherwise you're kind of arbitrarily imposing rules on something that might be fine; instead of coming up with a way to counter that strategy, you're running away from it. I'd rather let the metagame develop than limit it artificially. Then again, Brawl wasn't really designed for competitive play, so I'm open to the fact that "broken" strategies might very well exist - it's just that they should be proven to be detrimental to the metagame first, before they're banned.
InterimOfZeal
Smash Champion
Sounds more like you're not all that hot at DI, punishment, or prediction.
KosukeKGA
Smash Champion
1) Pick Meta Knight or Snake.
2) Kill Nana.
3) ????
4) Profit.
2) Kill Nana.
3) ????
4) Profit.
Metà
Smash Master
Give me proof of a Bowser winning tournaments in Melee, crushing Sheiks along the way.
Sheik vs Bowser in Melee is more broken than Marth vs Ness in Brawl, with or without infinites, so why didn't we ban those?
Also, stop using the word metagame. You have NO idea what it means, and you throw it around like it's just some fancy word competitive gamers like to use to prove their points. I'm not going to quote you here, but last page (i think?), you said IC's ICG "falls under the metagame category" or some BS like that. WTF does that even mean? Everything you do in the game in a competitive environment is a part of the 'metagame', whether or not it requires skill. It doesn't matter if you respect the usage of a technique you deem broken, it's still part of the competitive metagame if there are people who use it.
Here's an example of proper usage of the word:
"Snake is dominant in the current meta-game."
Or how about:
"Camping is an essential part of Brawl's meta-game."
Xyro77
Unity Ruleset Committee Member
metaknight and metagame share the word "meta".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNZf3aXpzD8&feature=PlayList&p=93DB718700AF0FC7&index=2
1) Almost no grabs
2) Grab cancel about a minute in on Final Destination, the sloped theory has just been debunked.
If grab canceling can be figured out, it pretty much blows completely to **** everyones anti-Brawl arguments. I don't even think the arguments hold much weight anyways, but having some sort of parry? There goes CGing, there goes shield camping (which isn't even a problem already), there goes basically every already invalid point most raise about Brawl.
IShotLazer
Smash Journeyman
Metagame actually means
Game about the game. Meta is usually something people just tack on to mean more depth however it doesn't mean that.
Anyway, Alpha you really sparked my hopes in Brawl. If you can get out of grabs, (Exactly at 1:05 you can clearly see it) that will COMPLETELY change the game.
I would say that the ICs grab should be banned/ready to be banned (Unless above claim is true) because they are much more... well versatile than the others. D3, whose grab everyone talks about isnt actually an infinite on any competitive stage or at least the majority of them. The ICs don't need a lot of room and right when you're grabbed that's it. Once a grab would take place that life would be over with nothing the other person could possibly do. However, I still say that we shouldn't ban it yet. Let some tournaments and the people do the experimentation for us.
Game about the game. Meta is usually something people just tack on to mean more depth however it doesn't mean that.
Anyway, Alpha you really sparked my hopes in Brawl. If you can get out of grabs, (Exactly at 1:05 you can clearly see it) that will COMPLETELY change the game.
I would say that the ICs grab should be banned/ready to be banned (Unless above claim is true) because they are much more... well versatile than the others. D3, whose grab everyone talks about isnt actually an infinite on any competitive stage or at least the majority of them. The ICs don't need a lot of room and right when you're grabbed that's it. Once a grab would take place that life would be over with nothing the other person could possibly do. However, I still say that we shouldn't ban it yet. Let some tournaments and the people do the experimentation for us.
IShotLazer
Smash Journeyman
After seeing more action of the IC chain grab I do not believe it should be banned.
Teh Uber Parachuter
Smash Cadet
I'm pretty sure that you could break grabs even in Melee, so the question becomes, was this grab-breaking figured out then (I really don't know, I didn't find out anything about competitive Melee until two years ago), and if so, can those tactics transfer over to Brawl?
There was no instant grab break in Melee.
Also, if people are intrested, you can watch my climbers vs Sethlons falco in tournament if you want to see the ICG in action.
Also, if people are intrested, you can watch my climbers vs Sethlons falco in tournament if you want to see the ICG in action.
S_B
Too Drunk to Smash
Meta:
Beyond; transcending; more comprehensive: metapsychology.
Metagame:
A level of gameplay which has thoroughly explored the physics, intricacies and nuances of the game to the point of maximizing the player effectiveness beyond the typical level of play.
Performing the ICs' chaingrab requires a player who has explored the metagame and uses this knowledge to perform a difficult chaingrab.
But there's a colossal difference between a player who understands how far the ICs need to move to catch a player in a chaingrab at each percentage and a player who mashes the Z button to run up damage on a Ness player.
It's a moot point anyway. Neither will be banned from most tourneys.
This gives me hope as well, but I can't believe further testing hasn't happened already. Are we sure he didn't just mash buttons to escape REAAAALLLLY fast?
This would bring many players back without concerning themselves over counterpick infinites.
And if this is a real, intended tactic, I take back some of my angst toward Sakurai.
hova
Smash Champion
how are the two grabs different in reference to the metagame?? In both situations it's to the players benefit to land a grab and try to infinite
one is just way easier than the other. simplicity does not equal being a scrub or having a less understanding of the game
one is just way easier than the other. simplicity does not equal being a scrub or having a less understanding of the game
InterimOfZeal
Smash Champion
Saying "an infinite is an infinite" is faulty. If that logic were true, Sonic's jab-lock would put him in high tier.
With Marth v Ness, you don't even need to try to do it. I did it properly my first time, and have never once messed it up. Hold shield, mash a, gg, Ness.
With Marth v Ness, you don't even need to try to do it. I did it properly my first time, and have never once messed it up. Hold shield, mash a, gg, Ness.
Metà
Smash Master
I understand that, and I agree with you. However, they're both part of the 'metagame', even though one takes far less skill.
S_B
Too Drunk to Smash
I suppose.
I just see it as something a player could figure out by accident the very first time they pick up the controller and start mashing buttons.
I'm going to start a thread about grab cancels, if one hasn't been started already...
I just see it as something a player could figure out by accident the very first time they pick up the controller and start mashing buttons.
I'm going to start a thread about grab cancels, if one hasn't been started already...
What I have learned from this thread:
1) Xyro is a joke
2) Xyro is a joke
3) Xyro is a joke
4) ICG looks nasty, but if I were to see it pulled off in a tournament I'd applaud the hell out of the IC player due to its difficulty in execution.
5) Xyro is still a joke
Education is fun.
1) Xyro is a joke
2) Xyro is a joke
3) Xyro is a joke
4) ICG looks nasty, but if I were to see it pulled off in a tournament I'd applaud the hell out of the IC player due to its difficulty in execution.
5) Xyro is still a joke
Education is fun.
lordaxl
Smash Cadet
wow i was so bored, i read the whole darn thread
now my head hurts haha, this was all one big logic-based flame war haha, IC CHAINGRAB FTW, even though i hate playing them =[
now my head hurts haha, this was all one big logic-based flame war haha, IC CHAINGRAB FTW, even though i hate playing them =[
House M.D.
Smash Apprentice
techniques should only be banned if they either break the game (mewtwo's freeze glitch) or they make a character so overpowered that they are the only character that wins tournaments (no examples, because ICs are not winning every brawl tourney)