Should IC chaingrabs be allowed in tournaments?

[S_B]

It hasn't won tourneys, it hasn't proven to be broken.

First of all, I doubt you've heard word from EVERY SSBB tournament in the world to determine whether or not infinite grabs are being abused.

Second, if it hasn't won tournaments, then why does banning it pose an issue at all?

 

[napZzz]

You guys are still arguing over this? LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yeah, so it looks like you have some trouble. SOOOOOOO many people are against this. And I still dont see why you think things like laser locking or the other cg's are'nt cheap. Sure, they may not be cheap but they give the player almost an unfair advantage for getting fast damage without having to do much other than grabs (that if are frame perfect you cant escape).With DDD you can start the match out by taking no damage, then getting an easy 50% on yourself and get ready for plenty of juggles and his amazing keep away and defense game. Its the same with falco. And after his cg he STILL has his laser locking. His cg to dair is just as bad as the ic's infinite, because it can kill characters since his dair is a spike and even though its not an infinite you can still kill people without them getting out of it. There were PLENTY of infinites in melee, and for some reason because a few people *****ed about hylian ****** them in a tournament with cg's you think ZOMG I MUSTZ BAN THIS!! I SHALL MAKE THESE IDIOTS HAPPY!. Besides, the ic's cg is VERY hard to do and it takes more skill than just about anything else in the game, whereas DDD and falcos cg's can be mastered in a small amount of time. Go look at character tournament placings and see that too many ic's are placing high, and now you decide to take away one of the best things they can do? wow. Unless ic's are placing top at tournaments everywhere you go decide to ban them.

 

[S_B]

I don't see what's unreasonable about putting a 3-5 grab limit on all matches or something along those lines.

Grabbing isn't hard to see or hard to count, be it for the judges or the players. Just put that limit on and it prevents characters like Ness from dropping to bottom tier because Sakurai f*cked up.

And let's face it, he DID f*ck up. He's explained in article after article that he intended to level the playing field in SSBB as much as possible, meaning he completely ignored the competitive scene and let crap like this make it into the game because of a severe lack of beta testing (seriously, he must have had a bunch of 70 year olds beta testing this game. Had even ONE competitive player been hammering away at this, they'd have found this crap before it went gold master for certain).

So why should characters like Ness, Samus, DK, etc. be knocked to bottom tier because there's a counterpick who can **** them silly because the game's director has no concept of the competitive scene?

The worst of it is the massive insult to the intellect of Smash players everywhere. To not find this kind of thing beforehand either takes a massive amount of idiocy or a massive amount of apathy, and I'm guessing it was the latter.

He basically assumed that players would never take the game beyond the "mario party level of randomness" that he allegedly intended the game to offer. Was he completely ignorant of Melee's competitive scene? Did he even realize that people were playing his game in tournaments?

I guess the IC's chaingrab isn't much of a threat, but I don't see any reason infinites should be allowed at all.

And saying "NO ONE PLAYS NESS IN TOURNAMENTS! LOLOL!" doesn't cut it. Guess what? No one plays Ness in tournaments BECAUSE of the infinite combo Marth players can pull on him. If there was a 3 grab limit, I guarantee you'd see some more Ness players come out to tournaments. Same goes for Samus, DK, and all of the other potential victims of infinites.

 

[Aesir]

I don't see what's unreasonable about putting a 3-5 grab limit on all matches or something along those lines.

Because you're making that decision pre-mature based on assumptions that are not yet proven.

snakes ftilt is pretty good maybe we should put a limit on that as well.

Grabbing isn't hard to see or hard to count, be it for the judges or the players. Just put that limit on and it prevents characters like Ness from dropping to bottom tier because Sakurai f*cked up.

Don't use Ness against those characters then, No Johns.

So why should characters like Ness, Samus, DK, etc. be knocked to bottom tier because there's a counterpick who can **** them silly because the game's director has no concept of the competitive scene?

There was this character called shiek in melee who could 0-death chain grab 75% of the cast.

This was never banned, why? Because it was hard to land grabs. in brawl it's still not that easy to land a grab against smart players so these grab based infinites aren't as game breaking as you're making them sound.

The worst of it is the massive insult to the intellect of Smash players everywhere. To not find this kind of thing beforehand either takes a massive amount of idiocy or a massive amount of apathy, and I'm guessing it was the latter.

All you're saying is it's broken because it's an infinite and you've yet to prove why, all you've proven is IC and DDD have good grab games. They can't even do it to all characters it's only certian characters that can be grabbed like that.

First of all, I doubt you've heard word from EVERY SSBB tournament in the world to determine whether or not infinite grabs are being abused.

Second, if it hasn't won tournaments, then why does banning it pose an issue at all?

Because people like acting like scrubs when they think they can't beat something. It's a lot easier to blame something else rather then accept you made a mistake.

Cging didn't break the game in melee, and theres no evidence to suggest it's going to break the game in brawl.

ESPECIALLY since you can break out of grabs a lot easier in brawl now.

 

[Xyro77]

You people dont get the point.

I ban this cause i KNOW and have seen it beat people that actually stood a very good chance and beating the IC player.

Im not banning this cause im afraid of people winning with IC. IC are un popular and will never make a huge dent in tourney results. Im simply stoping innocent people from losing to a IC that ICG.

For the record, it has been PROVEN that ness/lucas CAN escape marths chain grab. there are vids. lz look them up. And, if you people would actually look at the first post of the Houston thread, u will see ive banned/reduced other things.

Another thing. Texas will not suffer in any way from this ban(or reduction). In fact, it will forced texas ICs to be more creative when fighting. creativity is part of being good.

@kal and the other dude: i didnt have to use logic 101 or and big words to get my point across.

 

[Aesir]

You people dont get the point.

I ban this cause i KNOW and have seen it beat people that actually stood a very good chance and beating the IC player.

Im not banning this cause im afraid of people winning with IC. IC are un popular ad will never make a huge dent in tourney results. Im simply stoping innocent people from losing to a IC that ICG.

For the record, it has been PROVEN that ness/lucas CAN escape marths chain grab. there are vids. lz look them up.

Another thing. Texas will not suffer in any way from this ban(or reduction). In fact, it will forced texas ICs to be more creative when fighting. creativity is part of being good.

@kal and the other dude: i didnt have to use logic 101 or and big words to get my point across.

With no evidence at all? Sorry but no tourney organizer is going to take you seriously unless you can prove it's as broken as you say.

You even said they won't make a dent, so you're just protecting horrible players form getting discouraged? That sounds scrub like no offense.

 

[Xyro77]

With no evidence at all? Sorry but no tourney organizer is going to take you seriously unless you can prove it's as broken as you say.

You even said they won't make a dent, so you're just protecting horrible players form getting discouraged? That sounds scrub like no offense.

First off, the phrase "horribe players" is an opinion. What i call horrible, u may find amazing.

2ndly, i run 80% of all the tournaments in texas. My turn out only increases, never decreases. If the public cant handle my pre-emptive ban/reduction of a move that cant be escaped, then they can go run thier own tournaments. The cool thing is, they wont. Cause they REALIZE that by banning/reducing an INFINITE CHAIN GRAB it will force the VERY FEW IC players out there that they wll need to be CREATIVE when using IC in the future. Being creative is not bad a all.

3rd, i need not show evidence of any kind. I dont care about you or what you think. U accept my ban/reduction or you dont. Argue/degrade/double team me till your blue in the face. I am doing some thing i KNOW has and will continue to cause a problem. Wether its on a small scale or a large one. Dont wanna go to my events? Dont. Its rather simple.

 

[S_B]

snakes ftilt is pretty good maybe we should put a limit on that as well.

If Snake can repeatedly use his Ftilt on an opponent until they die from it and they have no way to escape it, then yes, it should be limited.

Don't use Ness against those characters then, No Johns.

Translation: Ness is a counterpick only.

And "Johns" are the people who whine about not being allowed to use a broken game mechanic to defeat a superior opponent. Listen to what TGM is saying: IC players sound like they spend most of the match trying to grab people so they can infinite them to death.

All you're saying is it's broken because it's an infinite and you've yet to prove why, all you've proven is IC and DDD have good grab games. They can't even do it to all characters it's only certian characters that can be grabbed like that.

One grab should not = death for any character. It wasn't intended as a mechanic of the game and it just serves to further shrink the roster when it could easily be rectified.

Because people like acting like scrubs when they think they can't beat something. It's a lot easier to blame something else rather then accept you made a mistake.

Cging didn't break the game in melee, and theres no evidence to suggest it's going to break the game in brawl..

Infinte grabbing with Dedede isn't hard at all, and it breaks 5 characters. Are you suggesting that playing against Dedede means that getting grabbed once in the entire match should rightfully equate a KO?

Also, I checked the videos of Ness escaping Marth's infinite: last I checked, Ness can only jump out of it if the Marth player isn't hitting him at the time (and this is the case in the video) as opposed to just breaking out of it. Either that or the Ness player had to hit the jump button as the very last breakout button RIGHT between the Marth player's grab attacks, which is nigh-impossible to do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzRvPGGcdTE

The comments in the video corroborate this.

I know it's your tourney, but in your shoes, I'd ban all infinites. Not chain grabs, but infinites. I can't imagine anything more boring than watching a Dedede player infinite a DK player for a minute before tossing him off the screen.

I'd imagine it makes for piss-poor spectating when the only tension is "Will he screw up the infinite?"

 

[Foxy]

First of all, I doubt you've heard word from EVERY SSBB tournament in the world to determine whether or not infinite grabs are being abused.

This is completely backwards - something SO BROKEN THAT IT SHOULD BE *BANNED* IN TOURNIES is something that you shouldn't have to search through every Brawl tourney that has ever run to find word of it.

If it warranted a ban, don't you imagine it would be making a large impact and even those ignorant of the tourney scene would find it clear that it was breaking competitive play left and right?

Second, if it hasn't won tournaments, then why does banning it pose an issue at all?

Okay, so your first argument was poor, but WHAT THE HELL are you saying with this?

Are you saying that tourney directors should be able to ban anything they please simply because it hasn't won tourneys? On a scale of 0 to 10, that makes -99 sense. So they can ban MK's down b because doing so wouldn't cause a big argument?

I don't see what's unreasonable about putting a 3-5 grab limit on all matches or something along those lines.

If you're going to push for a ban on anything in Brawl, this is the most rational contender. It's the only technique in Brawl that nearly guarantees a win for a certain player. Now, I don't support bans on this, as it brings some spice to counterpicks, but if you want to oppose something like IC chain grabs, forget about those and go for this issue first. In fact, the existence of these broken regrab combos should make it obvious to you how balanced IC grabs are.

I guess the IC's chaingrab isn't much of a threat, but I don't see any reason infinites should be allowed at all.

Alt grabbing is the most difficult infinite in smash. The duration of it is entirely based on the player's execution, and I've never seen an alt grab chain past 5 throws from my friend who religiously plays IC's. They are very timing-specific and vary from character to character and with percentages.

Technically it's an infinite, and under a no-infinites policy it should be banned, but you will honestly RARELY see it go past 3 or 4 throws, which is clearly not infinite. Common sense, people.

Cause they REALIZE that by banning/reducing an INFINITE CHAIN GRAB it will force the VERY FEW IC players out there that they wll need to be CREATIVE when using IC in the future. Being creative is not bad a all.

This is a terrible argument. It's tantamount to saying that Snake's ftilt and utilt should be banned to cause Snake players to be more "creative" in their damage-dealing and KO-ing.

The ONLY time a specific move or tactic should be banned to make a character weaker and played with more variety is if said move/tactic either is so overpowered that the character has no option but to use the strategy exclusively if they want to win, or if it causes the character to become ridiculously better than any other characters in the game.

However, IC's are still mid-tier, don't win many tournaments, and cannot play completely based on their grab game or spacing will rip them apart. Their chain grabs are so far off from banning criteria that this discussion shouldn't even be occurring.

If Snake can repeatedly use his Ftilt on an opponent until they die from it and they have no way to escape it, then yes, it should be limited.

Landing Snake ftilts repeatedly for a 0-kill combo is about as hard as alting a competitive player 0-kill with IC's.

Translation: Ness is a counterpick only.

Now, I originally responded to the Ness arguments with something along the lines of "blind character picks and counterpicks exist", but you are completely true that it is incredibly difficult for a player to competitively main Ness exclusively or near-exclusively in tournies. Even with blind picks, a well-known Ness player's opponents will ALWAYS pick Marth or another character with the regrab infinite for the first match.

So, the Ness player could mindgame the opponent into playing Marth and bring a Marth counter instead of Ness, but that defeats the purpose of them being a Ness main.

As you said, what this means is that currently you can only use Ness as a counterpick. Now THIS is grounds for a ban, unless nobody cares about Ness.

 

[Xyro77]

I know it's your tourney, but in your shoes, I'd ban all infinites. Not chain grabs, but infinites. I can't imagine anything more boring than watching a Dedede player infinite a DK player for a minute before tossing him off the screen.

I'd imagine it makes for piss-poor spectating when the only tension is "Will he screw up the infinite?"

i have. i reduced it to a max of 5 grabs before he must toss a foe. this only applies to the 5 he can INFINITE. All locks(laser,ice block,jab) are banned as well. Wall infinites are too. people do not read what i post or dig deep and find out EXACTLY what im doing.

They just think:

1. He must have lost to a an ICG so he bans it as revenge.........[in fact ive never been ICG in brawl]

2. Hes a scrub and wants to help out scrubs by banning it.....[ obviously you dont know what a scrub is]

3. If you ban X then u have ban Y and while your at it u need to ban snakes F-tilt.......[ i guess you have done too many drugs to see how dumb u are]

 

[Metà]

First off, the phrase "horribe players" is an opinion. What i call horrible, u may find amazing.

2ndly, i run 80% of all the tournaments in texas. My turn out only increases, never decreases. If the public cant handle my pre-emptive ban/reduction of a move that cant be escaped, then they can go run thier own tournaments. The cool thing is, they wont. Cause they REALIZE that by banning/reducing an INFINITE CHAIN GRAB it will force the VERY FEW IC players out there that they wll need to be CREATIVE when using IC in the future. Being creative is not bad a all.

3rd, i need not show evidence of any kind. I dont care about you or what you think. U accept my ban/reduction or you dont. Argue/degrade/double team me till your blue in the face. I am doing some thing i KNOW has and will continue to cause a problem. Wether its on a small scale or a large one. Dont wanna go to my events? Dont. Its rather simple.

LOL @ telling them to be 'creative'

Know how you could be even more creative?

FIND MORE WAYS TO AVOID GETTING GRABBED

 

[Aesir]

Translation: Ness is a counterpick only.

And "Johns" are the people who whine about not being allowed to use a broken game mechanic to defeat a superior opponent. Listen to what TGM is saying: IC players sound like they spend most of the match trying to grab people so they can infinite them to death.

Johns are for people who like to make excuses because they lost.

You still haven't proven it's broken at all. you can send me youtube videos all day it's not proving anything just proving it's effective.

ANd despite what TGM said you do have to offer evidence for it to be banned otherwise you're just a scrub.

One grab should not = death for any character. It wasn't intended as a mechanic of the game and it just serves to further shrink the roster when it could easily be rectified.

Not really, it only makes a character less viable against a certain character. being able to infinite combo ness with one character doesn't mean you can't use ness against another character.

Infinte grabbing with Dedede isn't hard at all, and it breaks 5 characters. Are you suggesting that playing against Dedede means that getting grabbed once in the entire match should rightfully equate a KO?

If you took the time to learn it and apply it to your game, and if you were able to land that grab. Sure.

Banning infinites without any evidence at all simply because YOU think they break the game is a horrible way of thinking. It forces the community to not adapt, something good comes along and instead of finding ways around you just ban it.

What are we? 12

I know it's your tourney, but in your shoes, I'd ban all infinites. Not chain grabs, but infinites. I can't imagine anything more boring than watching a Dedede player infinite a DK player for a minute before tossing him off the screen.

I'd imagine it makes for piss-poor spectating when the only tension is "Will he screw up the infinite?"

Actually infinites are the most entertaining things in competitive play.

Theres a reason MvC2 is extreamly entertaining.

edit: Metà I <3 you.

 

[Foxy]

i have. i reduced it to a max of 5 grabs before he must toss a foe. this only applies to the 5 he can INFINITE.

Sure, I'd still attend a tourney with these rules, especially if I mained Ness or Lucas.

All locks(laser,ice block,jab) are banned as well.

There is no basis for banning these. They only last as long as the stage and usually don't do a ridiculous amount of damage. Also, they take specific set-up or capitalization from the player performing them, and aren't "free infinites".

Wall infinites are too.

Yes. This is fine, makes sense to ban at a tourney. Certainly the laser, ice, and jab locks at a wall could get a ban, or any other wall infinites.

1. He must have lost to a an ICG so he bans it as revenge.........[in fact ive never been ICG in brawl]

If you've NEVER been ICG'd then why are you trying to ban it? If a player can't even land it on you, then isn't it obviously not a "free infinite"?

3. If you ban X then u have ban Y and while your at it u need to ban snakes F-tilt.......[ i guess you have done too many drugs to see how dumb u are]

omg thats lyk teh best argment iv evr herd

For serious. What the hell kind of refutation is "you must be doing drugs"? Banning needs CRITERIA, and you can't ban one technique when another meets the same CRITERIA used to determine the first ban.

 

[S_B]

Are you saying that tourney directors should be able to ban anything they please simply because it hasn't won tourneys? On a scale of 0 to 10, that makes -99 sense. So they can ban MK's down b because doing so wouldn't cause a big argument?

From what Xyro was saying, he's seen IC scrub players use infinite grabs on players who he feels are superior to them but wind up losing because they got grabbed, then the IC players eventually come up against a player who doesn't get grabbed and get knocked out of the tournament anyway.

My point was that, if he felt the ICs weren't a problem with their chaingrab and didn't need it to compete, why should banning it even be a concern? (and I mean imposing the 3 grab limit, not making them stop after 1 grab).

If you're going to push for a ban on anything in Brawl, this is the most rational contender. It's the only technique in Brawl that nearly guarantees a win for a certain player. Now, I don't support bans on this, as it brings some spice to counterpicks, but if you want to oppose something like IC chain grabs, forget about those and go for this issue first. In fact, the existence of these broken regrab combos should make it obvious to you how balanced IC grabs are.

I don't want to come across as extra-harsh on the ICs: it does sound like theirs is the more difficult of any infinites, but as a Bowser mainer, I'm not exactly thrilled about the idea that I better never stop infinite jumping when I play against a D3 player because one grab = game over.

I realize that there are characters who are natural Bowser counters, but an infinite grab is dramatically different from a counter because skilled players can overcome the counter-advantage while an infinite grab is the end of a stock with a single mess-up.

Technically it's an infinite, and under a no-infinites policy it should be banned, but you will honestly RARELY see it go past 3 or 4 throws, which is clearly not infinite. Common sense, people.

The ICs would still get some nice damage and the potential to KO with the 3-4 grab limit (if they grab at a high enough %).

As you said, what this means is that currently you can only use Ness as a counterpick. Now THIS is grounds for a ban, unless nobody cares about Ness.

I'm more concerned about this because it DOES mean being a Ness main is pretty much impossible because you'll get "Marthed" at every tourney you try to go to once you become well known.

It's not like a triple chain grab isn't a solid advantage over an opponent: you're dealing great damage with little difficulty, but with the 3 grab limit, it's at least not guaranteed death from one minor mistake which leaves you open for a grab.

 

[Xyro77]

LOL @ telling them to be 'creative'

Know how you could be even more creative?

FIND MORE WAYS TO AVOID GETTING GRABBED

Find ways to not get grabbed?

In a game where shield stun is GREATLY reduced and in some cases GONE?

Impossible

In a game where grabbing as a whole is EASIER to perform due to loss of WD and L canceling?

Impossible.

In a game where the IC SPECIALIZE in trying to set up grabs because they suck other wise?

impossible.


that "dont get grabbed" crap doesnt work. it never will.

 

[ADHD]

Find ways to not get grabbed?

In a game where shield stun is GREATLY reduced and in some cases GONE?

Impossible

In a game where grabbing as a whole is EASIER to perform due to loss of WD and L canceling?

Impossible.

In a game where the IC SPECIALIZE in trying to set up grabs because they suck other wise?

impossible.


that "dont get grabbed" crap doesnt work. it never will.

Hylian couldn't pull it off against sethlon he seemed to keep messing up, I think it's way too early to ban it just yet.

 

[Metà]

Find ways to not get grabbed?

In a game where shield stun is GREATLY reduced and in some cases GONE?

Impossible

In a game where grabbing as a whole is EASIER to perform due to loss of WD and L canceling?

Impossible.

In a game where the IC SPECIALIZE in trying to set up grabs because they suck other wise?

impossible.


that "dont get grabbed" crap doesnt work. it never will.

Oh, I'm sure it does work, and if it doesn't now, then it will. But hey, think of it as another challenge! You'll just have to be even more creative! If you want to play the 'creativity' card, play it evenly; it can go either way.

Also, while I know it's hard getting away from a grab wh*re, keep in mind that there are more ways to avoid a grab than are to pull one off. It just leaves you with more...I dunno, options? Nonono....creativity! : D

 

[Xyro77]

ok well until this gets good ill be off for a while. PM me if u want to talk.

 

[Metà]

Oh, but this is already good! There's no point in arguing on the internet unless there's someone stupid to laugh at. XD

 

[S_B]

LOL @ telling them to be 'creative'

Know how you could be even more creative?

FIND MORE WAYS TO AVOID GETTING GRABBED

How about...

LEARN TO WIN WITHOUT USING A CRUTCH

In all seriousness, I can't think of anything less creative and scrubish than using an infinite grab to exploit an oversight in another character's design (not talking so much about the ICs as Marth and Dedede).

If you can't beat someone by out-skilling and out-mindgaming them, you don't belong in the tournament.

Johns are for people who like to make excuses because they lost.

Like people who whine that they can't win without infinites?

You still haven't proven it's broken at all. you can send me youtube videos all day it's not proving anything just proving it's effective.

You're not going to listen anyway, but then again, you're not running a tournament that I've heard of so I fail to see why your opinion should even be considered.

Not really, it only makes a character less viable against a certain character. being able to infinite combo ness with one character doesn't mean you can't use ness against another character.

I makes it impossible to main Ness, meaning players won't bother trying to main him because they know they'll get "Marthed", meaning Ness might as well not even be on the tournament roster.

Banning infinites without any evidence at all simply because YOU think they break the game is a horrible way of thinking. It forces the community to not adapt, something good comes along and instead of finding ways around you just ban it.

Adapt to WHAT?, not being grabbed for an ENTIRE match? I don't care HOW evasive a player is. In a match against a good opponent who is TRYING TO GRAB YOU THE ENTIRE MATCH, you're going to get grabbed.

What game are you playing where grabs are THIS hard to land? Do you have any idea how ridiculously one-sided it will make matches?

One character is going to be on super-defensive mode, afraid to do a move which will expose them to even the slightest chance of being grabbed, while the other is going to do nothing but wait, dodge and try to grab them.

I'm glad Xyro realizes the problems here and has taken steps accordingly.

 

[Foxy]

In a game where shield stun is GREATLY reduced and in some cases GONE?

You get your shield smashed, you aren't going to be in range for a shield grab.

In a game where grabbing as a whole is EASIER to perform due to loss of WD and L canceling?

Wavedashing and JC grabs are what made IC's grabs in Melee so hard to avoid.

In a game where the IC SPECIALIZE in trying to set up grabs because they suck other wise?

IC's are not particularly fast.
IC's have poor grab range.
IC's have no attacks (other than maybe a single jab) that can lead into a grab.
IC's have no strong approach options to bring them in grab range.

Next time, play the game before you try to put together an argument.

My point was that, if he felt the ICs weren't a problem with their chaingrab and didn't need it to compete, why should banning it even be a concern? (and I mean imposing the 3 grab limit, not making them stop after 1 grab).

Ah, I see. I misread your original statement. I agree with you here.

I don't want to come across as extra-harsh on the ICs: it does sound like theirs is the more difficult of any infinites, but as a Bowser mainer, I'm not exactly thrilled about the idea that I better never stop infinite jumping when I play against a D3 player because one grab = game over.

I realize that there are characters who are natural Bowser counters, but an infinite grab is dramatically different from a counter because skilled players can overcome the counter-advantage while an infinite grab is the end of a stock with a single mess-up.

This is exactly why infinite regrabs should be banned way before we even consider banning IC chain grabs.

I'm more concerned about this because it DOES mean being a Ness main is pretty much impossible because you'll get "Marthed" at every tourney you try to go to once you become well known.

It's not like a triple chain grab isn't a solid advantage over an opponent: you're dealing great damage with little difficulty, but with the 3 grab limit, it's at least not guaranteed death from one minor mistake which leaves you open for a grab.

I personally think that regrabbing is going to garner a soft ban - competitive players will hold an unspoken conduct of refusing to use regrab infinites, and any scrub that legally attempts to win a set with the infinite will only be beaten and disgraced by the much better and more experienced player who can avoid the grabs and punish.

This is the most likely and probably best solution. After all, what professional player is going to work so hard only to earn a reputation of being someone who fights without honor when handed broken game mechanics? It's somewhat the same reason that ChuDat doesn't wobble EVERY single grab he gets in Melee.

How about...

LEARN TO WIN WITHOUT USING A CRUTCH

In all seriousness, I can't think of anything less creative and scrubish than using an infinite grab to exploit an oversight in another character's design (not talking so much about the ICs as Marth and Dedede).

If you can't beat someone by out-skilling and out-mindgaming them, you don't belong in the tournament.

Meta was talking about IC chain grabs, not Marth/D3 infinite regrabs. IC chains are the subject of the thread and unless someone specifically refers to them, assume they mean the IC's to avoid confusion like here.

 

[Aesir]

How about...

LEARN TO WIN WITHOUT USING A CRUTCH

Scrub comments for the win?

Like people who whine that they can't win without infinites?

More scrub comments. cool.

You're not going to listen anyway, but then again, you're not running a tournament that I've heard of so I fail to see why your opinion should even be considered.

Mine my not, but OWM would considering majority of his tourneys have been well run and fairly ruled VLS doesn't count.

I makes it impossible to main Ness, meaning players won't bother trying to main him because they know they'll get "Marthed", meaning Ness might as well not even be on the tournament roster.

That sort of mentality is horrible.

Learn to not get caught in the infinite, find ways around it and stop johning. Or Pick a character that ***** marth.

Adapt to WHAT?, not being grabbed for an ENTIRE match? I don't care HOW evasive a player is. In a match against a good opponent who is TRYING TO GRAB YOU THE ENTIRE MATCH, you're going to get grabbed.

Sure a grab is inevitable, but grabs are easily escapable for one, another thing I'd like to point out. if you're keeping your eye open for grabs you'll be avoiding a good amount of them. Thus making it harder for them to land the infinite.

If you're better then them then you should win as long as you're avoiding a good amount of grabs.

What game are you playing where grabs are THIS hard to land? Do you have any idea how ridiculously one-sided it will make matches?

Do you know how incredibly ignorant you sound? this doens't make matches one sided at all, if you're good you'll still win. The infinite doens't break the game as much as you're saying it is.

One character is going to be on super-defensive mode, afraid to do a move which will expose them to even the slightest chance of being grabbed, while the other is going to do nothing but wait, dodge and try to grab them.

Mind games, Do you use them?

I'm glad Xyro realizes the problems here and has taken steps accordingly.

Scrubs flock to each other.

 

[Foxy]

That sort of mentality is horrible.

Learn to not get caught in the infinite, find ways around it and stop johning.

This is something that more people need to understand. I mained Marth for a while and I didn't three-stock every Ness/Lucas I played. Getting grabs is NOT that easy, against a skilled and actively thinking player.

While the infinite does give Marth a HUGE matchup advantage, a win for the Ness player is in no way impossible - I'm just suggesting that more players actually play this matchup and see how it really works. A Marth entirely focused on grabs is susceptible to a lot of easy approaches and combos.

 

[KevinM]

I'm done with this thread as the scrub mentality brawl has brought upon players has hurt my eyes. I can't wait for major tourneys, I'm going to learn the ICG just to chain grab the **** out of everyone from Texas just to hear them whine.

Texas seems to get scrubbier in Brawl by the second good **** TGM

 

[Excellence]

This is a post I made in the houston thread that I will put here as well responding to TGM:


Do you not understand smash at all? The entire game is based around gimping, and killing at the lowest %'s.






You don't even have your facts straight, yet you go and try to ban things?

DeDeDe can Infinite 5 characters. Samus included. If I play you in tournament again, I will make sure to remember to just pick DeDeDe and infinite you, since you didn't ban it. Also, its MUCH easier then anything the IC's can do.

So you only want IC's to be able to regrab 3 times? Thats what..not even 15%?

Falco can chaingrab you to 35%-50% depending on the weight of the character, and then he can dair, which is another 15% or so. So falco is allowed to do that but not IC's?

DeDeDe can infinite against walls, AND he can chaingrab all the way to the edge and ftilt, so that he is in the position to edgeguard and the opponent cannot do anything about it once they are grabbed. The IC's could do the same thing, Fthrow all the way to the edge to edge guard. It's the exact same thing, yet the IC chaingrab is sooo much harder and it's banned?

Also, Marth and Sonic CAN'T get out unless the Falco messes up. This is a another fact you have wrong.

Also, not getting grabbed is NOT your only option.

1. Keep the IC's seperated. This is not that hard considering nana lags 6 frames behind popo, and often gets hit when you shield.

2. Pick moving stages. They interrupt the chaingrabs. Stages with slopes also do this.

And not getting grabbed IS possible. The ics have a VERY short grab range, they don't have a wavedash to chase with like in melee, their approach is not great, and almost every character can hit their shield without fear of being shieldgrabbed.

Hey look, another thing you are wrong about! 32 of the characters in this game can do this to ness/lucas. Some have to move while doing it, but generally its an infinite with almost anyone. So you are saying ness and lucas should just be completely abandoned and never used in tournaments? Just because they are not as popular? That's horrible.

Also, if people will main IC's to infinite every character...THEN WHY AREN'T THEY? Did you know I am the only IC play to even place top 5 in a brawl tournament? AND I ONLY USED THEM 5 MATCHES THE ENTIRE TOURNAMENT. Maybe it's because, despite the IC's having an infinite grab, they are VERY hard to use and their are many ways to beat them. If this technique was broken then you would see IC players EVERYWHERE. WINNING everything. But you don't. Because it's not broken.



Um, I addressed this above. You are wrong.



Really? So does that mean I am only allowed to grab 3 times the entire match? Can I only grab them once? Do I have to do two attacks again before I can grab? 3? I am pretty sure if I throw them, then I fair them with nana, I just did a grab, and then an attack. I am still not allowed to grab? What if I do Throw, to fair, to iceblock? 2 attacks. Can I grab after that? What about, throw to fair to block lock to jab to grab? Is that considered a chaingrab?

You say I can't grab 3 times in a row. So I can still grab, throw 3 times, hit them with an attack, and then grab again? If that is banned then how many attacks am I allowed to do before I can grab again? Can I throw with popo, then footstool them with nana and grab as they get up off the ground? What if I footstool into Ice block into grab? There are so many things I can do with climbers, that you would basically have to ban every single one of my combos. Why not just ban IC's alltogether? What limits me from doing these things? I can infinite someone while only grabbing them once between like 3 hits. Thats not at all grabs in a row. If you ban this, you are going to have to tell me EXACTLY what I can't do, or I will do it. I have MANY death combos. I don't use them, because I don't need to. They are still there.



See above



That has NEVER Happened. In melee, Wobbling was legal at almost every large scale tournament, and it didn't effect the outcome one bit. The only two good IC's were Wobbles and Chu, and they bothed placed the same when wobbling was banned and when it wasn't. Random scrubs will NEVER beat pros. THIS TACTIC IS NOT BROKEN AND THERE IS NO EVIDENCE FOR IT BEING SO. You have ZERO proof that this will happen. It didn't happen in melee, that's for sure.



There was never a single tournament that was won by wobbling. People thought wobbles only beat caveman at evo south because of wobbling, but he also beat caveman when wobbling was banned. In several tournaments. He still lost to Xelic, even WITH wobbling. So lets see: Wobbles is allowed to wobble and he beats caveman and loses to Xelic. When he isn't allowed to wobble what happens? He beats caveman and loses to Xelic. The exact same thing. IT IS NOT GAMEBREAKING AND HAS NEVER AFFECTED TOURNAMENT RESULTS.



I don't have to compare it. The points addressed above are solid.



I don't like it, and I won't attend tournaments that support banning this, no matter where they are. Be open to change. It seems like you are just banning this because you don't understand it, or how to get around it. But it is by no means broken, and people are not going to start winning tournaments because of it.



I know.



Edit: I didn't even bring up Jab locks, Lazerlocks, Ice Block Locks, Stun Locks..Why are those not all banned?

Excellent response, I think you concluded everything I wanted to say.

 

[Infinityunl]

Whatever, just stay away from texas tourneys or something. From whats being said here only one tournament holder is banning this. I dont understand why this is a subject anyway when ice climbers arent popular anyway. I play to have fun. Why does a samus player complain with projectiles. My poor ike dreads seeing missiles in his face. its hard to get close please dont flame me im kinda weird in the head...or something... *shrug* =/

 

[omegawhitemage]

Well to add to my point earlier(and no I haven't wasted my time reading the garbage in this thread) this and other infinites like it(wobbling anyone?) should not be banned until they prove to consistantly WIN tournaments. Then and only then is it broken. You don't see good players *****ing about this or wobbling for that matter because "Don't get grabbed" is a viable way to play the game. Stay in the air, ban FD and other flatter stages(pictochat) and play characters that have good range and the problem is solved. The pre-emptive ban of something like this can and will affect the meta-game. Without having to worry about it we could lose out on someone accidentally stumbling onto a random new AT while attempting to find ways to escape the grab. There is a whole world of things you can do to avoid this and without any tournament results proving it's "Omg HAX!!!!111" then leave it alone and see if it's really that big of an issue.

And before I hear, "you don't know all the tournament results worldwide, how can you knwo if it's dominating somewhere else??" Think about this for a second, if it was really such a big deal, word of mouth will have brought this news to us. The only tournaments in which people would know how to do this are likely to be on these boards somewhere. If we haven't heard about it happening then maybe, just maybe, it's not such a big deal.

 

[Metà]

In all seriousness, I can't think of anything less creative and scrubish than using an infinite grab

Really? Well, I certainly can: banning it.

LEARN TO WIN WITHOUT USING A CRUTCH

I think banning a technique is a much sturdier 'crutch' than using something that's actually part of the game, don't you? If we're going to be banning crutches here, I think we should ban all of them. The only exception of course is stalling techniques and freeze glitches, but that's not a part of this debate iirc.

 

[InterimOfZeal]

What's "narrow minded" about suggesting that this wasn't an intended feature of the game and is, in fact, game ruining?

Competitive play wasn't an intended feature of the game. He essentially stated in his interviews that he thought that it would be unfair for the better player to win consistently.

Ness, Fox, Wolf, and a few others are going to become counterpick only characters. If you ban the IC infinite, then you're going to need to ban Sheik's ftilts, too. You know she can 20-death Fox, and put about 60-80% on Wolf, as well as 6 other characters, right?

Another problem is enforcing that kind of stuff. If an IC player plays against a random scrub who knows the rules, and sees no one is watching, then the scrub can report said IC as doing infinites, costing the IC either a stock, or the entire match/set. If you put a limiter, such as 3 consecutive grabs, then the IC will just grab 3 times, fair/dthrow jab/however long the combo string is>3 more grabs. The infinites will get more and more ridiculous, until you outright ban grabbing with ICs.

You guys are still arguing over this? LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hey, TGM, piss off, aight? You sucked in Melee, you suck in Brawl, and you're bringing Texas down, love.

Find ways to not get grabbed?

In a game where shield stun is GREATLY reduced and in some cases GONE?

Hit the ICs shield hard, they go flying WAAAAAAAAY too far to punish anything.

Possible.

In a game where grabbing as a whole is EASIER to perform due to loss of WD and L canceling?

Odd, I always thought WD with ICs and various other characters made it easier to grab. Don't use high lag aerials on the ICs shield if it's not going to push them away.

Possible.

In a game where the IC SPECIALIZE in trying to set up grabs because they suck other wise?

Wait... Wasn't that the same for Melee? I'm pretty sure they were known for grabs, and not desynch combos. Banning their CGs will only make them suck more. Way2scrub, since you can't overcome their only (self-admitted) strength.

Plausible? :D!

that "dont get grabbed" crap doesnt work. it never will.

And this is why you never placed well in any tournaments that mattered.

 

[S_B]

Scrub comments for the win?

How is telling people to get good at the game without relying upon glitches to win a scrub tactic?

If I fought a Ness player as Bowser and chaingrab him to 150% before tilting him (which he can't avoid), then I'd be the scrub because I clearly decided I couldn't beat the Ness player in a real fight.

Learn to not get caught in the infinite, find ways around it and stop johning. Or Pick a character that ***** marth.

I **** Marths with Bowser all the time.

Sure a grab is inevitable, but grabs are easily escapable for one,

For one, that's the point of Marth/Bowser's infinite grab on Ness: Ness breaks out and is immediately regrabbed because I'm mashing the grab button.

Second, in the case of Dedede's infinite, you grab and immediately hit down. Level 9 comps don't even have time to escape at 0%..

another thing I'd like to point out. if you're keeping your eye open for grabs you'll be avoiding a good amount of them. Thus making it harder for them to land the infinite.

If you're better then them then you should win as long as you're avoiding a good amount of grabs.

But what if you're not: what if you and your opponent are about perfectly evenly skilled? It's not at all unexpected to be grabbed a few times during any match, especially against an opponent who's on par with you.

Do you know how incredibly ignorant you sound? this doens't make matches one sided at all, if you're good you'll still win. The infinite doens't break the game as much as you're saying it is.

Just to make sure I know what I'm talking about, I went and tested D3's and Marth's infinite grabs in action: D3's is frighteningly easy to do on DK, but for Bowser, it might not be an "infinite", but requires D3 to take a half step forward every time. By the time you get to the end of the stage, you'll have at least 150% damage added to you, though.

Marth's, however, involves mashing the hell out of the Z button until Ness is at the damage you want him and smashing him. It's sad.

Frankly, the ICs' grabs have NOTHING on these two.

How does this break the game? Easy: it discourages players from trying to take these characters to tournaments at all.

I take issue with that because Marth's true potential in Melee wasn't really discovered until Ken began maining him and brought him up to first tier, and this was a while after Melee had been out.

How many characters are being pushed to the bottom tier without really being explored because no one will consider maining them due to counterpicks?

Mind games, Do you use them?

All the mind games in the world aren't going to save you from a equiskilled player intent upon grabbing you.

Scrubs flock to each other.

You know, you've been incredibly quick to insult me but not very quick to actually argue my points.

You want proof that these are game breaking? Xyro said it himself: no one even TRIES to take Ness, Bowser, DK, Samus, etc. into his tournaments.

You can say "It's not broken!" all you want, but you're basically arguing that you can't prove smog is harmful to the passenger pigeon because the species is extinct already.

The best, and I mean BEST, thing in the world for your argument would be a Ness player who regularly stomps Marth players at high profile tournaments. Show me that and you have a valid point.

Really? Well, I certainly can: banning it.

Are we talking about the IC infinite or the D3/Marth/Bowser infinite? Because I'm talking about the latter, not the former.

I think banning a technique is a much sturdier 'crutch' than using something that's actually part of the game, don't you?

You have no idea how much I'd LOVE to agree with this statement, but there's a big difference between "part of the game" and "intended part of the game" and when we have game developers who don't beta test properly, it unfortunately falls to the players to decide what they were actually trying to accomplish.

I mean, do you honestly think Masahiro Sakurai intended for Marth players to be able to continuously mash the grab button and run Ness up to 200% damage before smashing/titling him? It's not even hard to do, unlike the ICs' grabs which at least take some skill.

I don't see this as halting a game mechanic that seems overly powerful. I see it as halting a glitch which unbalances the character roster and clearly wasn't intended.

Hit the ICs shield hard, they go flying WAAAAAAAAY too far to punish anything.

Practically off topic for my discussion, but doesn't perfect shielding prevent knockback while shielded?

 

[Skler]

Hey, anyone who thinks the ICG is broken should just main the ICs and win all the tournaments they go to. Think about it for a second, if the technique is so broken you might as well cash in and get it banned by doing so! Not only do you make tons of money, you accomplish what you set out to do. Or...does the ICG not lead to people winning tournaments? Then it must not deserve a ban.

Either win with ICG or stop complaining about it. TGM, as much as I love your melee combo video(s), doing this is probably the most ******** thing ever. If it's broken win with it and then ban it, if you can't win with such a broken technique you either suck or the technique isn't really broken.

 

[Metà]

"intended part of the game"

Please don't EVER use this phrase again; it's stupid and irrelevant. Nobody cares if Sakurai intended anything, it doesn't change the fact that it exists, and using it to prove your point destroys any credibility you have in your arguments. Stop it. As it's been said before, Sakurai didn't even intend us to be holding these tournaments for $$$ in the first place. If that's true, then shouldn't we be canceling all our tournaments? Or can we make an exception for that? Besides, even if he had intended it (let's hope he didn't), would it be allowed then? Does it even make a difference at all whether he did or didn't? If not, DON'T BRING IT UP.

 

[thx]

i dont think it should be banned but i dont think you can compare it to d3s or anyone elses chain grab i mean with other characters you grab them and throw them to the end of the stage or whenever you wanna let them go but thats all you really do then they have to grab you again right? with ice climbers you can chain grab but give them a heavier amount of damage while chain grabbing them so with d3 or falco you get them to about lets say 50 and it was all because the first grab led up to it while ice climbers can deal a greater amount of damage with the first grab (an unfair amount) to death in some cases i dont see why were banning it now seeing as ice climbers havent moved anywhere because of it i would rather ban it if it becomes a serious issue where we see i LARGE amount of people doing this (i say large because if there was only one person able to do it within the span of this games life then the person must be really skilled)

if this was said already or anyone have an argument please dont bite my head off XD

 

[Aesir]

I think meta said it best.

But LOOOOOL at your mentality, you haven't proven it's broken yet, but you still say it takes no skill to win with?

Seriously try proving it's broken first which by the way you've failed to do. Until you do that you're just a scrub who can't help but john.


Kinda feel bad for skler that he lives in the same state as you >_>

edit:

I'm not arguing your points because they lack any sort of logic and you're not even proving your side just saying LOOK SO AND SO CAN DO THIS IT'S BROKEN

No it's not broken, you can avoid grabs, you can trick them into forcing a grab and punish them for a missed grab.

It's not their fault you're not smart enough to figure this out. If you already know how they're going to kill you (grabs) that puts you at an advantage you already read them you know what they're going to do. Use it against them, frankly it's not hard all you're doing is just whining so it's easier for you.

My points stand yours don't thats why I keep calling you a scrub.

 

[S_B]

Please don't EVER use this phrase again; it's stupid and irrelevant. Nobody cares if Sakurai intended anything, it doesn't change the fact that it exists, and using it to prove your point destroys any credibility you have in your arguments. Stop it. As it's been said before, Sakurai didn't even intend us to be holding these tournaments for $$$ in the first place. If that's true, then shouldn't we be canceling all our tournaments? Or can we make an exception for that? Besides, even if he had intended it (let's hope he didn't), would it be allowed then? Does it even make a difference at all whether he did or didn't? If not, DON'T BRING IT UP.

I don't believe in the "let god sort the dead" argument when it comes to these kinds of things.

Sakurai and team aren't infallible deities who imposed their absolute will. They're human and as such are subject to the same human failings as anyone, and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to point out parts of the game that are quite clearly broken.

The point of SSB or any fighting game is to outwit, outskill and outplay your opponent and defeat them within the confines of a system of checks and balances which attempt to present a level playing field to the best of its ability.

In the metagame, we learn that specific characters do not sit evenly in that they can easily fall victim to certain attacks or techniques of other characters. The ICs' infinite falls under the metagame heading, I suppose, due to the amount of skill and precision required to pull it off.

But Marth/D3's infinites are no where NEAR "metagame". I did them successfully myself after practicing for only a few minutes (or in Marth's case, mashing Z).

The way I see it, a tourney host can do one of two things:

1. Accept that the game is broken and impose mild rules to counter it (and they are MILD. 5 grabs is still a whole pile of free damage and is plenty reward enough).

2. Accept that some characters won't be seen in tournaments despite having real potential due to beta testing oversights.

And I'm not suggesting which one of these is the correct answer, this is just what you'll have as a result of choosing either option.

I personally think that regrabbing is going to garner a soft ban - competitive players will hold an unspoken conduct of refusing to use regrab infinites, and any scrub that legally attempts to win a set with the infinite will only be beaten and disgraced by the much better and more experienced player who can avoid the grabs and punish.

This is the most likely and probably best solution. After all, what professional player is going to work so hard only to earn a reputation of being someone who fights without honor when handed broken game mechanics? It's somewhat the same reason that ChuDat doesn't wobble EVERY single grab he gets in Melee.

Well said and I hope this is the case as well.

The actual infinite throw can take upwards of a minute to get the player up to the damage you want them before delivering the killing blow. I'd like to think that spectators would start booing or at least scoffing at someone using an infinite.

 

[DarkDragoon]

How is telling people to get good at the game without relying upon glitches to win a scrub tactic?

>_> Srsly though.
<_< Do you remember wavedashing? L Canceling? Shffling?
You know, those melee glitches everyone complained about, and all the scrubs said, "Hey, those break the game, play with out them because glitches suck and make you instantly win."

._. Yea, this is sorta just like that, except its a bit more unreasonable, because it is nearly impossible to do to a smart player, with a scarcely played character, and is completely preventable with a series of grab escapes or, go figure, killing Nana.

As it looks right now, the throws are really ALL the ICs have going for them, so you're basically looking at them, spitting in Popo's face, and then ****** Nana, and telling them to have a good life as you cast them to the bottom of the usability pool.

>_> Seriously, Brawl is pretty boring to watch, and having crazy chaingrabs/infinites are probably the only cool thing to see anymore, since they're so rare.

Oh, yea, and how can it be broken if no one is cashing out on it.

Srsly.

LOL @ "Pick-and-choose" definition of Metagame.
Metagame is just the game beyond its face value. The infinite grabs are part of this, laser locking is part of this. Heck, perfect shielding is a part of this to an extent.
The people who participate in the metagame are responsible for its development, and therefore the expansion of Brawl's (limited) competitive spectrum. This ban is only a gateway to a HUGE limiter on Brawl's metagame. If you limit infinite grabs to 5, then you'll soon be justifying the limiting of many other things that are deemed "unfair", based on the word "infinite", and not take into account the outside circumstances required to actually engage in the said action.

-DD

 

[S_B]

My points stand yours don't thats why I keep calling you a scrub.

You haven't made a point yet and your arguments have no legs to stand on, hence why you resort to insulting me instead of attempting to argue with my logic.

I've even given you a sure-fire way to win the argument: find me a Ness player who wins high-profile tourneys, crushing Marth players along the way.

Bring me proof of this (a video, an article, anything) and I'll admit that you're right about it not being a broken portion of the game.

If there's a Ness player out there beating some of the best Marth players in the world and avoiding being grabbed the WHOLE game, clearly, it's not broken.

>_> Srsly though.
<_< Do you remember wavedashing? L Canceling? Shffling?
You know, those melee glitches everyone complained about, and all the scrubs said, "Hey, those break the game, play with out them because glitches suck and make you instantly win."

._. Yea, this is sorta just like that, except its a bit more unreasonable, because it is nearly impossible to do to a smart player, with a scarcely played character, and is completely preventable with a series of grab escapes or, go figure, killing Nana.

As it looks right now, the throws are really ALL the ICs have going for them, so you're basically looking at them, spitting in Popo's face, and then ****** Nana, and telling them to have a good life as you cast them to the bottom of the usability pool.

>_> Seriously, Brawl is pretty boring to watch, and having crazy chaingrabs/infinites are probably the only cool thing to see anymore, since they're so rare.

Oh, yea, and how can it be broken if no one is cashing out on it.

Srsly.

-DD

Sigh...I'm not talking about the ICs'. I'm talking about Marth's infinite combo on Ness and D3's infinite on the 5 characters, one of which involves mashing a button and the other involves relatively easy timing on grabs.

The end result is that no one even tries to take these characters to tournaments anymore because they fear getting infinite grabbed to death.

 

[Aesir]

You haven't made a point yet and your arguments have no legs to stand on, hence why you resort to insulting me instead of attempting to argue with my logic.

Actually I have made points, I've said landing grabs are hard, you haven't addressed this just glossed over it.

I've already gone over why I insulted you, because you're acting like a scrub. Very scrubtastic.

Lets go over this my points are like this I'll actually be serious this time.

1. the grab is dependent on nana, so take out nana. (in the case of the IC)

2. Don't get grabbed, this might sound idealistic but it's entirely possible.

3. Play smart and space better.

Honestly the burden of proof falls on you to provide evidence, you haven't as of yet. Only youtube videos showcasing the infinite not one actually being done in a match, or even tourney results of IC cashing in on this.

Until you do your points are very pointful at all.

I've even given you a sure-fire way to win the argument: find me a Ness player who wins high-profile tourneys, crushing Marth players along the way.

This logic is fail because it implies that ness is an actual good character, which he may very well not be.

I think you're having a hard time dealing with the fact that ness is probably not that good. maybe Marth is just a better character and ***** ness? besides the burden of proof falls on you, you have to prove your case to me, not the other way around here buddy.

Bring me proof of this (a video, an article, anything) and I'll admit that you're right about it not being a broken portion of the game.

The burden falls upon you.

 

[omegawhitemage]

I love how i addressed most of these point and everyone ignores the most sensible post the thread has seen. LOL Anyway, I'm just going to learn this and start losing to players that know how to actually play anyway to prove how worthless it really is.

 

[DarkDragoon]

Sigh...I'm not talking about the ICs'. I'm talking about Marth's infinite combo on Ness and D3's infinite on the 5 characters, one of which involves mashing a button and the other involves relatively easy timing on grabs.

The end result is that no one even tries to take these characters to tournaments anymore because they fear getting infinite grabbed to death.

>.> Read my edit then.
Also, its not BAD that "no one" is using Ness Or Lucas anymore. Lucas was a pretty good character, as was Ness, but Marth still owns them without the infinite grab. Besides, its EASY to mess up that infinite grab, because more than once I've held down or tapped Z too long/fast and ending up shielding or jabbing, ending the grab.

Its not hard, but it isn't simple either.
-DD