Sheik's Counterpicks Against Specific Characters (Link current)

[FrozenFire13]

No, not Luigi's mansion. MK wrecks inside the actual walls, Tornado is freaking stupid there (amongst other things). Not to mention if it limits his aerial game it also limits ours and MK's ground game>>ours. Pillars stop needle camping whilst they hold no disadvantage to MK. High vertical ceiling IIRC, MK kills the vast majority of the time horizontally where as Sheik's will often try and rely on grab release U Smash.

But ask yourself this: How does a Meta Knight get out of the tilt lock? Shuttle loop?

Is shuttle loop the only option? Or can MK get out of it another way? Cuz the lower ceiling wall makes it so they can't go high enough to jump or shuttle out of (I think. I could be wrong, somebody should test it) and we also have needle lock possibilities inside the walls. I think we can rack up good damage if we play right. And if the mansion gets destroyed? Then we have a bigger FD for GR DACUS and needle camping.

 

[Canvasofgrey]

But ask yourself this: How does a Meta Knight get out of the tilt lock? Shuttle loop?

Is shuttle loop the only option? Or can MK get out of it another way? Cuz the lower ceiling wall makes it so they can't go high enough to jump or shuttle out of (I think. I could be wrong, somebody should test it) and we also have needle lock possibilities inside the walls. I think we can rack up good damage if we play right. And if the mansion gets destroyed? Then we have a bigger FD for GR DACUS and needle camping.

Metaknight can get out with good DI when utilized and with his ridiculous DI and aerials, he can pop a Nair like Peach's Nair to escape a ftilt lock.

 

[-Mars-]

What is IDA?

Din's fire only hits half the time vs MK's tornado. Trust me, I play a good Zelda where I live regularly, and I second MK.

Instant Dash Attack.......done by quickly tilting the control stick and flicking down on the cstick. The fastest possible way for you to do a dash attack. Zeldas isn't slow either.

Okay, okay agree, what I should have said was sheik has better options over all since her moves generally come out so much faster than zelda's. Dair helps to descend quickly, nair is a solid way to beat out shuttle loop, bair is awesome and will actually hit through meta's fair if you time it correctly (though I believe that is true with zelda as well). With sheik you also have much better recovery options, that is a huge plus against the meta.
Sheik doesn't really have an answer to metaknights OoS stuff but she can better avoid it thanks to low cool down on her moves better and better movement speed.


I've never in all my days shield poked with zelda's fsmash I've shield broken, but not shield poked. fsmash has what five hits? They pull the opponent in for the final hit to connect. just by the nature of the move it makes it very difficult to shield poke. The last hit of the move hits even further away than the first four so if those first jolts hit the shield you can rest assured the last one will as well.
A well positioned bair will shield poke pretty often of characters who hide in their shield since it's hit box is so small, or thin rather. as the shield gets smaller you can bair above it and get a connection with the character and avoid the shield. I do this several time a match.
The pro about sheik's bair that zelda doesn't have is it's speed both start up and on end. Even wiffed bairs are difficult to directly punish a wiffed fsmash will lead to a grab or some aerial approach 100% of the time against meta.

I don't know about that, I'll definitely check it out though. IDA I could maybe see working, fsmash is hard for me if meta spaced his dsmash correctly.

I've seen meta blow right through din's but I've also seen it stop teh tornado as well. positioning it correctly is tricky and unreliable against a player a lot of the time espeacially when you concider the start up on meta's nado is much shorter than even an instant din's.
And dtilt really, that I did not know? If meta comes in that low sheik's dsmash probably could as well... I'll have to test that.
Naryu's can be a good answer to tornado I believe...


That said I'm not attacking your point or anything. I'm just trying to say sheik is viable against competent meta knights, even more so than zelda.

Zeldas dtilt hits on frame 5, naryus on 4, dsmash on 4, usmash on 6, bair on 5, and iirc nair is like frame 5 or 6. Zelda's certainly not a slow character in terms of horizontal aerial movement speed and moveset speed. Out of those attacks I mentioned......bair, nair, dtilt, and even her jabs and fsmash have extremely low cooldown time. Of course Sheik is faster but there seems to be this common misconception about Zelda being a slow character that abuses the cstick all of the time.

Honestly I think Sheiks recovery is horrible if your opponent is competent enough to grab the ledge and take away the tether from Sheik. Zeldas recovery is readable as well, but at least she has a hitbox upon reappearance and Naryus for stalling in the air and such.

Maybe i'm confused as to what shield poking really is......but I still believe Zeldas fsmash is safer on block than Sheiks bair.

Oh and yes you have to have Dins almost at the maximum hitbox for it to hit him out of the nado so it's usually not the most reliable option. Dtilt has insane priority believe it or not. Naryus can also work.......my point was that Zelda isn't ***** or anything by his tornado.

I agree Sheik does decent against MK.....but I think Zelda does just as well.

But ask yourself this: How does a Meta Knight get out of the tilt lock? Shuttle loop?

Is shuttle loop the only option? Or can MK get out of it another way? Cuz the lower ceiling wall makes it so they can't go high enough to jump or shuttle out of (I think. I could be wrong, somebody should test it) and we also have needle lock possibilities inside the walls. I think we can rack up good damage if we play right. And if the mansion gets destroyed? Then we have a bigger FD for GR DACUS and needle camping.

MK can dair or nair out of the tilt lock I believe in certain cases. But honestly, ban Luigis against Mk if you have any sense at all.

 

[FrozenFire13]

Ok, so apparently I don't fully understand. But would Luigi's Mansion be ban worthy? Is a MK gonna take you there if you don't? Or does he have better stages? I'm assuming no by the way everyone is talking?

 

[Canvasofgrey]

Ok, so apparently I don't fully understand. But would Luigi's Mansion be ban worthy? Is a MK gonna take you there if you don't? Or does he have better stages? I'm assuming no by the way everyone is talking?

No, while MK does have the advantage in Luigi Mansion, He has better advantages on other stages like Rainbow Cruise, or Delfino. So it's not ban worthy certainly since Shiek has advantage plays on Luigi's Mansion.

Pretty much, you ban the stage that gives MK the most strengths and Shiek the least weaknesses, and try to play on stages that MK has the most minimal amount of advantage points in.

 

[Flamingo]

Level and counter pick discussion, not match up here =P
So considering everything you guys have said, what levels would give Sheik the edge over Meta Knight's game. I know usually Luigi's mansion is up there to put a halt on his aerial game.

Any others?

Our matchup discussion is basically dead. Don't bash on something that will help us overall, but indeed I agree that our matchup discussion should be more 'discussed'.

Instant Dash Attack.......done by quickly tilting the control stick and flicking down on the cstick. The fastest possible way for you to do a dash attack. Zeldas isn't slow either.

Maybe i'm confused as to what shield poking really is......but I still believe Zeldas fsmash is safer on block than Sheiks bair.

Oh and yes you have to have Dins almost at the maximum hitbox for it to hit him out of the nado so it's usually not the most reliable option. Dtilt has insane priority believe it or not. Naryus can also work.......my point was that Zelda isn't ***** or anything by his tornado.

But honestly, ban Luigis against Mk if you have any sense at all.

Read -- I responded by color.

Thanks for clearing that up. I do that with MK and to DACUS with Sheik I think if that's the same thing

Sheild poking is where your attack's hitbox hits a part of the enemy uncovered by the enemy's shield and thus hits the enemy regardless of his shielding. Like... Try hitting someone with Sheik's tipper Usmash while their shield is low and standing on one of BF's side platforms

I think if you detonate Din's over the middle of MK's tornado, it will hit him... he is usually vulnerable in that spot.

I disagree. AND I HIGHLY STRESS WHAT I AM ABOUT TO SAY. MK has many stages where he will **** us, CPs like Luigi's, Rainbow Cruise, Japes, Frigate Orpheon, and all those small stages where we are not allowed to needle camp. Among those CPs are actually an equally bad "neutral" stage for us. Yoshi's Island. I highly recommend banning this stage because of it's higher percentage of being played in the 1st match determined by random neutrals. WE MUST WIN THE FIRST MATCH. I think that by "sacrificing" the second match by not banning Luigi's, and banning something with a greater probability to be played, instead of Luigi's which is equally bad as all the other CP's if not more favorable to us than others... we have a greater chance of winning the set consequentially by having a greater chance of winning the first match. That is just what I believe. Scenario: 1. Play FD, SV, or BF 1st match, win. 2. I suggest changing characters, but if you are chivalrous enough to play MK on a stage of his own choice, more glory to you. let's say you lose for scenario sake... 3. BAM. We CP FD or SV (whichever wasn't played in the first round) and have a greater chance of winning.

Ok, so apparently I don't fully understand. But would Luigi's Mansion be ban worthy? Is a MK gonna take you there if you don't? Or does he have better stages? I'm assuming no by the way everyone is talking?

Read the cyan please.

 

[rathy Aro]

I'd hope that the first stage gets picked by stage striking. Random can be ******** many times. Speaking of which, assuming the neutrals are BF, FD, Yoshi's Island, Lylat, and Smashville, which ones should we strike first. I'm guessing Yoshi's Island and Lylat?

Edit: Might be helpful if the original post included this ^ information along with which stage should be banned and some reasons for each decision. I know its more work, but if you have the time it'd be cool.

 

[Tristan_win]

Woah, woah, woah, Luigi's mansion is a meta knight counter pick for sheik. With a little effort with the chain meta knight has a extremely low chance of winning there until he starts destroying the pillers but until then sheik has a easy to use chain camp with a solid ceiling to protect her from one of the hardest things to stop meta knights dair.

Also japes isn't a bad stage to fight meta knight on either, you just have to not try to gimp him and keep your kill moves fresh. In fact I pick jungle japes usually when I'm counter picking not just because it wrecks a lot of characters but so they usually switch to someone who has a "advantage" on that stage like meta knight or falco... Meta knight does do well on jungle japes but I think picking japes is a much better stage to counter pick then something like "rainbow Cruise" just because you know who they are going to switch to half the time.

Oh and why is Yoshi's Island bad for sheik again? I don't follow.

If I was to ban a stage against meta knight it would be Rainbow Cruise since that fight is very difficult to win other then that all his "counter picks" aren't too bad against sheik.

 

[<π]

Zeldas dtilt hits on frame 5, naryus on 4, dsmash on 4, usmash on 6, bair on 5, and iirc nair is like frame 5 or 6. Zelda's certainly not a slow character in terms of horizontal aerial movement speed and moveset speed. Out of those attacks I mentioned......bair, nair, dtilt, and even her jabs and fsmash have extremely low cooldown time. Of course Sheik is faster but there seems to be this common misconception about Zelda being a slow character that abuses the cstick all of the time.

Sheik has three standard attacks that come out slower than 5 frames, usmash, fsmash and dair. Zelda is a slow character. the majority of her attacks have either rediculous start up or rediculous cool down. naryu hits much later than frame 4, but thats besides the point. my point was that OOS zelda doesn't have the range to punish properly spaced aerials from meta, it wasn't about the speed of her moveset.
Zelda OoS options are not bad that is not what I was trying to say. usmash OoS is rediculous agianst a lot of the cast, but unless meta is nairing your sheild it inst going to be too viable.

Honestly I think Sheiks recovery is horrible if your opponent is competent enough to grab the ledge and take away the tether from Sheik. Zeldas recovery is readable as well, but at least she has a hitbox upon reappearance and Naryus for stalling in the air and such.

Sheiks recovery may not be on par with a lot of the cast, BUT, like falco and fox, sheik has multiple options to take advantage of. And what I think makes her upB so strong and very long amount of invincibility time combined with low lag time on land. And in most cases the explosion will clear the edge for you to catch the edge.

Maybe i'm confused as to what shield poking really is......but I still believe Zeldas fsmash is safer on block than Sheiks bair.

okay, that is... kinda true. I think fsmash has more sheild stun than sheiks bair, BUT a sweet bair has more than enough shield stun (and knockback) to keep sheik safe from meta.
What I was getting at was Fsmash starts I believe frame 16 which means you have to plan 16 frames ahead if you are going to connect with the meta. he may not work according to your plan and you may miss. even in a perfect world predictions don't always come true, so you will miss with fsmash. meta's lateral speed is such that he can punish that miss very quickly with a grab and a dash attack.
bair comes out frame 3 which significantly lowers the amount of guess work. but even on miss you can throw out a jab to defend against and approach or jump again and set up for another spaced bair or fair.

Oh and yes you have to have Dins almost at the maximum hitbox for it to hit him out of the nado so it's usually not the most reliable option. Dtilt has insane priority believe it or not. Naryus can also work.......my point was that Zelda isn't ***** or anything by his tornado.

cool

I agree Sheik does decent against MK.....but I think Zelda does just as well.

okay, fair. I can see a zelda doing well against a meta. especially after the point you've brought up. But so much of the match up with her (and this is true for all characters with enough speed to punish her ftilt and fsmash) is based on guess work. Her bair, love, and dtilt help to fill that little gap and add a new form of pressure. but even still it's an up hill battle against characters with good disjointed stuff...

MK can dair or nair out of the tilt lock I believe in certain cases. But honestly, ban Luigis against Mk if you have any sense at all.

OH YEAH!
stage discussion. despite what I've heard about the chain I'm punished way to much even on hit.meta has the nado crap here and the pillars to hide from needles if he couldn't already fly over them. It is harder to kill here for sheik but Zelda may be able to remedy that. on the other hand you live so much longer with good di too. I wouldn't ban it but it isn't in our favor.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

OH YEAH!
stage discussion. despite what I've heard about the chain I'm punished way to much even on hit.meta has the nado crap here and the pillars to hide from needles if he couldn't already fly over them. It is harder to kill here for sheik but Zelda may be able to remedy that. on the other hand you live so much longer with good di too. I wouldn't ban it but it isn't in our favor.

I'm sure it is bad for us in the matchup, by my best records against MK with sheik are on this stage. Maybe it's just because I know the stage really well and the MKs I've played do not. Just saying it's not awful enough to ban it.

 

[Blistering Speed]

Tristan, I don't include the chain at all in any discussion at the moment because it's confusing as to where and when we can apply it, when someone starts applying it in matches as well as theoretics, then I'll include it.

<3, you're pretty ignorant of Zelda, refrain from discussing her until you get informed.

Note, I said MK benefits more from Luigi's then Sheik, not that you should necessarily ban it. Luigi's is bad, but you should always foremost ban RC.

Honestly, with MK there are no counterpicks, just go with a stage that you are comfortable with that doesn't have any facet that MK can take advantage of more then you.

 

[FrozenFire13]

Ok, well Tristan agrees with me (thank you) and we've stated all the advantages that Sheik has (at least for the most part)

Sheik: Chain camping/jacketing? Needle locks and other combos using the solid ceiling, and grab release DACUS.

MK: Tornado

I'm not trying to make this look like a "I just proved you wrong" post. The tornado is the only thing that immediately came to mind, so that's all I put. What else can anybody contribute to either side here?

 

[Villi]

I've also been hit out of my chain, even after hitting MK with it. It might be necessary to rack up enough damage so that the chain has enough knockback for MK not to be able to hit you before you can hit him again.

 

[Flamingo]

Whoa this thread is HOT!

STICKY PLS.

Oh and why is Yoshi's Island bad for sheik again? I don't follow.

Because it's small and he will be up in our faces, thus not allowing us any chance at all to needle camp. We do have walls to wall cling though on Yoshi's, but that's near pointless in a MK fight.

Anyways

Woah, woah, woah, Luigi's mansion is a meta knight counter pick for sheik. With a little effort with the chain meta knight has a extremely low chance of winning there until he starts destroying the pillers but until then sheik has a easy to use chain camp with a solid ceiling to protect her from one of the hardest things to stop meta knights dair.

Very interesting, I will definately have to try his out. It may just nullify everything I said from my last post.

I've also been hit out of my chain, even after hitting MK with it. It might be necessary to rack up enough damage so that the chain has enough knockback for MK not to be able to hit you before you can hit him again.

BUT.... Yes, I hit MK with the chain fairly often but it doesn't create enough hitstun for him to use the first hit of Fair or something like that to hit me out of the chain right after. Also, I must admit I don't have very good chain control, unless I'm gimping floaties.

This is usually how it has been in past experiences, I will work on my chain control, and then go to Luigi's.


I still say ban Yoshi's btw. - - -
REASONS.
1. Small, allows MK to be in our face 24/7 of the match, nullifying needle camping and the like.
2. Big, gigantic, slanting, buttsex-liking platform in the middle that lets him camp with Uairs and Shuttle Loops and Tornados under it while he continues to juggle us. (seriously besides air dodging, what do we do vs Uair?

Pros of Yoshi's for us...
1. Oh... yeah... Those little platforms can come up and save us. >.<

PS this is just in theory, and would be what I would do with my MK vs. any Sheik. As a MK secondary, I would much less rather fight ANY CHARACTER WITH PROJECTILES on FD, SV, or even BF. Especially b/c many character's projectiles get screwed over by the slants on Yoshi's like Lylat. This is just my input as a decent MK, invite a better MK in and ask him what he thinks, I'm thinking it will be a similar response.

 

[Tristan_win]

I've also been hit out of my chain, even after hitting MK with it. It might be necessary to rack up enough damage so that the chain has enough knockback for MK not to be able to hit you before you can hit him again.

Yeah... That does happen quite often for me too if I try to use the chain too early. Usually I wait till around 50% before the chain can really **** the **** out of meta knight. You can do it sooner but I think it's possible for meta knight to man it at like 30% or so with fast falling into sheik while spamming dairs.

So you cannot start a match with a chain camp, also it's risky to attempt so since jacking the chain within the first 10 moves or so will cause the game to freeze.

 

[Flamingo]

Yeah... That does happen quite often for me too if I try to use the chain too early. Usually I wait till around 50% before the chain can really **** the **** out of meta knight. You can do it sooner but I think it's possible for meta knight to man it at like 30% or so with fast falling into sheik while spamming dairs.

So you cannot start a match with a chain camp, also it's risky to attempt so since jacking the chain within the first 10 moves or so will cause the game to freeze.

So when we are talking about using the chain vs. MK... are we assuming already that we are using the jacketed chain? Does the regular chain still wreck him?

 

[Tristan_win]

So when we are talking about using the chain vs. MK... are we assuming already that we are using the jacketed chain? Does the regular chain still wreck him?

Normal jump into chain.

Honestly I don't know if the jack chain is any better then the normal jump into chain since it has priority thus it can over powered or it can cling with attacks while the normal chain transcend priority like the needles do.

 

[Flamingo]

Normal jump into chain.

Honestly I don't know if the jack chain is any better then the normal jump into chain since it has priority thus it can over powered or it can cling with attacks while the normal chain transcend priority like the needles do.

Well, as I have already stated, I play MK quite a bit (Sheik more though ) Anyways, basically the only MK attack that 'cling' with other attacks other than B moves is the glide attack. I cling with the glide all the time, usually all the other attacks will override any others I encounter. I probably just don't notice if any of the other attacks 'cling' or not because if anything interrupts them, I'll just throw out another Dsmash. So, basically what I am trying to say is that if MK's sword transcends priority, then there will be nothing to 'cling' with our jacketed chain, thus, he gets hit... as long as we don't get hit FIRST.

 

[Zankoku]

Side+B will clash cancel with Chain Jacket as well.

 

[Flamingo]

Anyways, basically the only MK attack that 'cling' with other attacks other than B moves

Yeah, I would imagine that Tornado probably would too. Depends what move you jacket though I assume.

Ankoku, which chain (jacket or normal) do you think is more effective against MK?

 

[Zankoku]

Well, seeing as how doing a grounded Drill Rush at a jacketed chain immediately negates both attacks, I think using chain jacket is more trouble than it's worth.

 

[<π]

<3, you're pretty ignorant of Zelda, refrain from discussing her until you get informed.

Refrain? What did I say that was false, did you read my post? I've already pulled the topic away enough, but if you'd like to tell me over AIM or IMs I'd be more than happy to hear where I'm in the wrong so I can have your permission to voice my opinions.

My main trouble with the chain is with faster characters in the air. I can stop an initial approach from the air but I can't move the chain back fast enough to prevent a follow up. THis is more evident on characters like marth and meta and sheik who have attacks that come out very fast. hit stun on the chain is minimal (think like diddy's peanuts) so unless you have a ground lock going fast attacks can come out almost instantly even after hit.

Also I wanted to bring up the pass through stages (halberd, brinstar, delfino to a slightly lesser extent). Not awesome in the match up. meta can come through the bottom of those stages with uair and tornado and is pretty much untouchable down there. You don't get a similar advantage.

What do you guys think of PKM Stadium? It is actually a pretty large stage the death zones are a good distance which is good for DIing Dsmash, fsmash and such. platforms are well positions and you also get access to locks because of the walls that pop up, you know, if anyone is silly enough to jump there and wait. It's also really wide which gives you a lot of room to run and bait with needles when the stage is neutral.

 

[-Mars-]

Also I wanted to bring up the pass through stages (halberd, brinstar, delfino to a slightly lesser extent). Not awesome in the match up. meta can come through the bottom of those stages with uair and tornado and is pretty much untouchable down there. You don't get a similar advantage.

What do you guys think of PKM Stadium? It is actually a pretty large stage the death zones are a good distance which is good for DIing Dsmash, fsmash and such. platforms are well positions and you also get access to locks because of the walls that pop up, you know, if anyone is silly enough to jump there and wait. It's also really wide which gives you a lot of room to run and bait with needles when the stage is neutral.

I think Brinstar is an mediocre Sheik stage......Halberd and Delfino aren't too bad in the MK matchup; if MK tries to attack from underneath the stage I just hop on the platform.

I'm personally a big fan of Pokemon Stadium and the weird ledges don't really affect Sheiks recovery all that much. I don't know if it is THAT good of a stage for Sheik where I would actually counterpick with it.......maybe against characters that get screwed by the ledges if Lylat isn't available.

 

[Villi]

Brinstar is ok, but not great. You can get low percent up smash kills +++ decay ftilts on the stringy things.

 

[Blistering Speed]

I'm not trying to make this look like a "I just proved you wrong" post. The tornado is the only thing that immediately came to mind, so that's all I put. What else can anybody contribute to either side here?

You quoted a post where I say reasons other then the tornado.

 

[Flamingo]

I think Brinstar is an mediocre Sheik stage......Halberd and Delfino aren't too bad in the MK matchup; if MK tries to attack from underneath the stage I just hop on the platform.

I would not advise going to Brinstar. He can SHARK when the lava is down, then come up when our shields are low with Tornado. He can KO with Shuttle Loop off the sides fairly well if I recall correctly, havent played that stage in a while though... I just know that we can be sharked like a wh*re cause that's what I do when I play that stage with my MK haha

 

[TGYDK]

Well I used to main metaknight and theres really not much you can do as a CP for him. there probably aren't any pickable stages where Shiek gets an advantage to metaknight, but there are stages that make the match less one sides to metaknight.

Im not sure if what im going to write about stages to pick is really towards helping out sheik, but they i know it'll help a bit cause i've experianced these things



we all know MK is light, so picking stages where there are small boundries (low ceiling especially) make the match much easier on your side, cause then he dies easier.

FD is a bad place to take metaknight, the stage is big so you can needle his *** a lot, but in the end its not going to help much. MK gets a lot of chances to shuttle loop you becuase of the free space.

battlefield is probably a better stage to pick against metaknight. shiek naturally does good there, but so does metaknight, but it gets rid of the chance to constantly shuttle loop, also shieks air attacks come out fast, so it isnt hard to use the platforms to your advantage to beat on metaknight, only problem is that we all know metaknights air game is just to good.

to be honest, I find yoshis island and smashville good places to fight mk on. I remember hating those two stages when i was playing as metaknight, its something about them that gets him killed fast.

yoshis island is a small stage, so you wont be able to hide from metaknight or anything, but the lack of a good platform (yeah. i dont think that big platform in the middle of thestage is very good at all) keeps MK from abusing platforms to combo you and such. plus you can wall cling on yoshis island, it probably wont help you, but hey wall clinging is cool

smashville im not sure why. i just hate that stage as metaknight. I think the reason he gets beaten a bit harder on those two stages is the fact that they are small, metaknight is always going to have someone on his *** that way.



you might have noticed i only listed neutral stages for the most part (i cant remmeber if i mentioned lylat, and im to lazy to check) thats mostly because almost all the CPs we have gives metaknight some kind of advantage, so i looked things over on my game and tested mk a bit and it seemed like all the neutral stages bring MK down just a bit, if anything.


This probably didnt help much, but it might open more discussion that could help us figure this one out.

 

[Voyeur]

I know it's been noted that Norfair is for all CP's but this one especially.
Just take 'em to Norfair. It's Sheik's playground.

 

[choknater]

Metaknight's really good on Norfair too though... Shuttle loop and drill tricksies and overall mobility rival or even surpass Sheik's movement on Norfair.

I agree with TGYDK's thoughts on the neutrals.

You want to confine Metaknight to a small stage... Battlefield and Yoshi's Island are both good. Sheik can keep up with him here. MK is one of the FEW characters that can outmaneuver Sheik. (Others being Wario, good Sonic... perhaps Yoshi? Haha)

Go to FD only if you can grab release DACUS. Otherwise, there are better choices lol

 

[Flamingo]

Go to FD only if you can grab release DACUS. Otherwise, there are better choices lol

Not for needles too?

Plus, if someone were going to Grab Release->Dacus, they would want to do it on a stage with a lower ceiling I presume... But indeed, it is easier to do it on FD probably because of a constantly stable, big stage.

 

[FrozenFire13]

Grab release - DACUS ***** MK lol especially when they don't DI correctly at 0% lol. I've semi tested this, and if you can grab release DACUS MK at 0-5% and they don't DI correctly, the second part of the Usmash makes them go right into position for a regrab release. 60 damage ftw lolz. (Highly unlikely it will happen much though, so nobody get their hopes up

 

[Voyeur]

well some where with low Ceilings for DACUS and tipper KO's to make a bigger impact, wider horizontal KO zones so we have higher survivability against Shuttle Loop and Dtilt from Meta Knight.

I can't think of many levels like that except maybe Delfino ?

 

[jc_off_the_heezay]

Not for needles too?

Plus, if someone were going to Grab Release->Dacus, they would want to do it on a stage with a lower ceiling I presume... But indeed, it is easier to do it on FD probably because of a constantly stable, big stage.

But MK ***** on FD.
He can Gimp Sheik easily.
As if her recovery wasn't bad enough.

 

[jc_off_the_heezay]

Halberd has a low celling. "/
But IDK about the stage being to good for Sheik.
What do ya think?

 

[Leafplayer452]

But MK ***** on FD.
He can Gimp Sheik easily.
As if her recovery wasn't bad enough.

Metaknight can gimp Sheik on any stage, so yea FD is the best stage but if the MK bans it I say go Luigi's Mansion cuz iy has a very low ceiling where u can ftilt lock quite easily tne usmash. Other than that, Smashville cuz its the closest stage to FD

 

[sniperworm]

My vote is for FD. It's the easiest for grab-release DACUS (since it's rare that a grab cannot become a grab release DACUS) and needles actually sort of matter there. It's also a decently large stage which means he'll have to hit you farther to get you off the stage (and by extension kill you) and it just gives you more stage to work with in general.

Neutrals in general are the way to go. MK is a much more adaptive character, so we should keep the stage out of the matchup as much as possible. FD and Smashville are probably the best. I definitely think Battlefield is a bad choice because of how small the actual stage is. One shuttle loop or Dsmash at almost any percentage puts you offstage (aka were you can be gimped).

I'm honestly of the opinion that large horizontal blast zones mean little in this matchup. Since we're so easily gimped, even if we do survive because of a larger offstage area, it's unlikely that we'll get back to the stage.

Oh, and ban Rainbow Cruise. At least give yourself a chance when they CP...

 

[SinkingHigher]

I like Battlefield. :/

I find it easy to space myself from MK there. Shuttle loop is a fairly easy to punish move, but you have to know how to pick your battles.

Anyway, to justify my statement, MK can still be GRUSTed on Battlefield. His jump release isn't high enough to reach to top platform, but DACUS practically takes you from one end of the stage to the either. You can still GRUST him if he lands on the lower platforms. You can still f-tilt him aswell, which means you can f-tilt to Usmash if he lands on those platforms, which would tipper and kill.

The ledge gives him an advantage, but fortunately you get a bigger advantage since MK can edgeguard pretty well.

Also, you can drag him down from the lower platforms with a chain and trap in him in a chainlock for a few secs.

I guess it depends how you play him. Imo you have to be the agressive opportunist and use a LOT of mindgames. Sheik is agile and has projectiles, which gives her two ups on MK. Imo taking advantage of openings is the only way to win, but you have to play smart and play hard. Approaching him from a 45 degree angle is the best method, which, once again, makes MK easier to handle.

As for said mindgames, running or dashing at him and jumping when just outside his sword zone works really well. Do it a few times. Just shorthop when outside his zone and go backwards and forwards. It will always bait an attack. Wait for the right attacks and go in for an f-air or b-air to f-tilt to whatever is your best option. To be fair though, you have to know your enemy which means playing them before hand, so meeting a good MK at a tournament is pretty ****ty.

I'm still learning this matchup and I've only played DM's MK, so perhaps there are other techs I don't know of. Feel free to correct me.

 

[sniperworm]

I like Battlefield. :/

I find it easy to space myself from MK there. Shuttle loop is a fairly easy to punish move, but you have to know how to pick your battles.

Anyway, to justify my statement, MK can still be GRUSTed on Battlefield. His jump release isn't high enough to reach to top platform, but DACUS practically takes you from one end of the stage to the either. You can still GRUST him if he lands on the lower platforms. You can still f-tilt him aswell, which means you can f-tilt to Usmash if he lands on those platforms, which would tipper and kill.

The ledge gives him an advantage, but fortunately you get a bigger advantage since MK can edgeguard pretty well.

Also, you can drag him down from the lower platforms with a chain and trap in him in a chainlock for a few secs.

I guess it depends how you play him. Imo you have to be the agressive opportunist and use a LOT of mindgames. Sheik is agile and has projectiles, which gives her two ups on MK. Imo taking advantage of openings is the only way to win, but you have to play smart and play hard. Approaching him from a 45 degree angle is the best method, which, once again, makes MK easier to handle.

As for said mindgames, running or dashing at him and jumping when just outside his sword zone works really well. Do it a few times. Just shorthop when outside his zone and go backwards and forwards. It will always bait an attack. Wait for the right attacks and go in for an f-air or b-air to f-tilt to whatever is your best option. To be fair though, you have to know your enemy which means playing them before hand, so meeting a good MK at a tournament is pretty ****ty.

I'm still learning this matchup and I've only played DM's MK, so perhaps there are other techs I don't know of. Feel free to correct me.

I guess it's really up to preference then, because you're not the only person that's suggested BF. I really don't like how he can potentially gimp Sheik at such low percents though (since we'll always be close to the edge of the stage on BF). Also, it should be noted that platforms are nice for Sheik, but they're even better for MK. Sheik is helpless if she's standing on one of those platforms with MK underneath her (barring vanish which doesn't even count since he's so close to you). MK on the other hand, can easily challenge you with SH Dair, SH Nair, or even the Tornado (lol) if you try to attack him from underneath.

Halberd seems like suicide to me just because the moving part of the stage is one giant sharkfest waiting to happen.

On a side note, I've actually seen you play against DM (and his MK). If you're playing him on a weekend, he's probably using his Wii at my house.

 

[SinkingHigher]

Ha, no way! Rofl. How long ago was this? He told me I was playing his friends at one point. Was that you?

Anyway, I see what you mean about him having the upper hand with platforms. I guess it's a matter of spacing at that point, but why give yourself the added grief. MK seems to be more and more of a personal issue. He's VERY good at punishing weaknesses and adapting to playstyles which is probably what makes him universally hard to beat.

I guess ultimately he's hard and there's nothing we can do about it.

halberd lol. And that new star fox stage. Death for recoveries.

 

[FrozenFire13]

My vote is for FD. It's the easiest for grab-release DACUS (since it's rare that a grab cannot become a grab release DACUS) and needles actually sort of matter there. It's also a decently large stage which means he'll have to hit you farther to get you off the stage (and by extension kill you) and it just gives you more stage to work with in general.

Neutrals in general are the way to go. MK is a much more adaptive character, so we should keep the stage out of the matchup as much as possible. FD and Smashville are probably the best. I definitely think Battlefield is a bad choice because of how small the actual stage is. One shuttle loop or Dsmash at almost any percentage puts you offstage (aka were you can be gimped).

I'm honestly of the opinion that large horizontal blast zones mean little in this matchup. Since we're so easily gimped, even if we do survive because of a larger offstage area, it's unlikely that we'll get back to the stage.

Oh, and ban Rainbow Cruise. At least give yourself a chance when they CP...

Agreed. FD is the best place I can think of.