Sheik's Counterpicks Against Specific Characters (Link current)

[Lore]

I decided that since we didn't have a stage counterpick against specific characters thread, that we could use one. I'll just start off Bowser, then we move down the list every couple of days. This should help at least a little.

Norfair applies to everything.

Lylat Cruise, Battlefield

Brinstar, Battlefield

FD, Lylat Cruise

Battlefield, Rainbow Cruise

Rainbow Cruise, Norfair, Frigate Orpheon

Battlefield

Battlefield, Frigate Orpheon, Yoshi's Island

Battlefield, Yoshi's Island

FD, Smashville, Luigi's mansion (if legal)

Battlefield, Final destination

Battlefield, Rainbow cruise, Frigate orpheon

Battlefield, final destination

Final Destination, Norfair

Current

Undecided

Undecided

Undecided

Undecided

Undecided

Undecided

:shiek: Undecided

Undecided

Undecided

Undecided

Undecided

Undecided

Undecided

Undecided

Undecided

Anything without Bread, Undecided

Undecided

Undecided

Undecided

Undecided

Undecided

Undecided

:mewtwo: Unbeatable.

Every few days (or when we decide on one) I'll update this thread and change the current character. Hopefully we can get this finished soon, but we do need to discuss the character well if we want to get anything done.

 

[JackieRabbit5]

In-depth stuff...yeah i think a lot of ppl forget that counterpicking stages shouldn't be based just on how good ur char does on that stage but opponents too.
for example i (as Sheik) was playing a Samus the other day who CPed battlefield. Maybe Samus is supposed to do well on that stage but Sheik does better i think (well cuz i won hehe, and more easily then on FD)

anyways seems like u have to have some knowledge of the opponents char and what makes them good on it then compare to what makes Sheik good on it

 

[Squidster]

Go ahead and put Norfair next to all undecided until we get to them.

As for Bowser...

Norfair

 

[Tristan_win]

~copies... paste~
When it comes to sheik counter picking stages it really comes down to only a few

Battlefield for like everything it should be your go to if you ever question what level to pick

Halberd if your opponent can't kill off the top easily and doesn't have multiply jumps or can't float

Corneria Same reason as Halberd but range holds less value and gimping is no longer a big concern since the level sides are so small. Which is nice if you just not able to gimp your opponent like at all.

Rainbow Cruise if your opponent depends on there ground game heavily or have poor recoveries.

Final Destination if it's a **** match up like Sheik vs Ike or Sheik vs Ganadorf or really anyone with very crappy range game.

Norfair because sheiks a ****ing ninja on that level

Luigi's Mansion if your opponent can't get around the chain and has no range attacks.

Jungle Japes, I use this one solely for Snakes as both characters are unable to kill until a decently high percent and in a match of who can deal out damage the fastest Sheik wins ever time against Snake since Snake can't combo. If anything after say 120% you can switch to Zelda and go for the kill like that while Snake by then is tried and needs to refresh his moves.

...Make sure you keep approach him from above so he will be dumb enough to keep hitting you away with his utilt. If you manage to get hit with it a few times and live it will benefit you greatly in the long run...Also stay on the right side of the stage.

One more thing, Snake is so tall needle camping works on the side platforms just make sure you watch out for the grenades. You wont be able to effectively camp there but it's good to mix it up.
~~~~~~

Anyways for Boswer I would either pick Battle field or Lylat Cruise. I've never fought a Boswer that has wowed me online, maybe because the grab release is so hard to pull off really but even so since he has a chain grab on sheik we should avoid stages that allow easy grabbing which is why platform levels would be the best. With that said Norfair maybe a good choice but at the same time we have to worry about the range of boswer air game and raw power on a stage that isn't that large.

 

[Lore]

..and now Tristan basically completes the thread. XD

I guess I'll put Bowser for Battlefield and Lylat Cruise. Lets move on, unless someone has something to add.

 

[Yingyay]

Sheik Counterpick against Yoshi?

Smashvile?
-He cant uair you easily if youre on the ground plus its easier to camp needles

 

[jehonaker]

I'd say Luigi's Mansion, simply because Yoshi doesn't seem to deal well with the platforms and pillars. Corneria might go well for you, with its lower ceilings, but Yoshi kills vertically most of the time...

Oh, and Yoshi is a lot tougher to gimp than you'd think, so stages you think will hurt his recovery probably won't.
You just might want to go Smashville or Battlefield on this one.

 

[Tristan_win]

I have no idea. I really don't know much about yoshi at all besides he has a grab release into fair spike on Sheik, sheik uair can beat his dair...that's about the extent to what I do know other then his bair is like a faster version of game and watches bair, his fsmash and usmash is not to be messed with, and his dsmash is a joke.

Anyways this might help for future decision making

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=156908

That topic contains plenty of data about stage ceilings and vertical survivability. It's all relative, but the general trends will apply to Shiek as well as anyone else.

 

[JackieRabbit5]

Yoshi! i should know this one...

i don't think platforms help him out as much as they do for Sheik since they can get in the way of his eggs and downB so i would think Battlefield would be a good choice (probably always is heh). I don't think his chaingrab works very well on Sheik so no need to worry about walk-off stages, in fact as a Yoshi player myself i'd be disappointed that i couldn't use edge-cancelled egg throws on such a stage. Yoshi can move pretty well especially in air and can control the flow of battle if u let him.

I might go on a limb here and say Brinstar...small stage doesn't give him much space, can't do any kind of chain grab, eggs from the edge no good, platforms and stage obstacles get in the way...yah i doubt Yoshi could do much on it

 

[choknater]

nice thread. i would put norfair in every slot imo but...

haha, anyway

i'd listen to jackie and say brinstar. iono, sheik just feels right on metroid stages. he also plays yoshi.

i would just stay away from lylat and yoshi's island since he can do funny tricks on sloped stages. better to increase your own capabilities than yoshi's.

rainbow cruise would also be a good pick. yoshi can't really use his recovery well there, and yes he actually does have a good recovery. sheik can control the stage a lot better since yoshi has to wait for his double jump to peak which forces him to be precise with his jumps. catch him with an aerial after his double jump and he is potentially screwed

 

[Blad01]

If you counterpick right, your opponent will just change his char though...

 

[Zankoku]

I love Battlefield when it comes to fighting against Yoshi. The platforms give me a ton of flexibility because Sheik is good at platform-dropped aerials, and Yoshi doesn't have a lot of options when it comes to taking advantage of platforms. Also, tipper usmash on the side platforms is always nice.

 

[choknater]

If you counterpick right, your opponent will just change his char though...

yeah, true. it's just a matter of knowing your opponent and which chars he uses. then you can work around that knowledge.

 

[demodemo]

i don't know about yoshi, but i'd just like to comment i don't do so hot on norfair, and do significantly better on halberd, on generally all matchups

 

[-Mars-]

I love Frigate Orpheon against characters without multiple jumps. I like just win everything on that stage and use it as my personal go to counterpick lol.

I don't see why everyone is putting Norfair as an excellent stage against Bowser. Similar to how Link can auto cancel his dairs like mad on this stage........Bowser can ledge cancel Bowser Bomb all over the place. He can stay out of the way of needles fairly well and his uses of all the edges would work to his advantage. I really don't think I would take a Bowser to Norfair.....but that's just me. I think Frigate would be devestating for Bowser only because of his recovery issues. You get him offstage on the right and he's pretty much dead. Halberd would be decent as well, but Sheik dies awfully early so I try to stay away from Halberd in most cases.

I have no idea for Yoshi so i'm not even going to comment.

 

[<π]

stages you can upsmash and uptilt through are so good. but shiek can do really well on big stages because needles give her a really strong camp game. sheik does well on a wide variety of stages. she can camp and be aggressive, so both small and large stages work well for her.

I don't like stages without grabable edges. frigate being the only one that comes to mind it limits my gimp game more than I'd like.

EDIT:
no... bowser doesn't gain much spare upB cancels from the edges bowser bomb is slow as hell and can olnt be used off the ground on the left more and right most platforms other wise...well yeah. I play bowser a lot and while because of up B cancels I wouldn't use that stage as a counter I wouldn't call it the worst stage for him

 

[Lore]

Ok then, put down Brinstar and Battlefield for Yoshi. Once again, if anyone has anything to mention later, post it.

Time for pokemon trainer.

 

[Tristan_win]

You don't need to counter pick, FD or Battle field most likely FD so Ivysour can't have a shield over his AA gun called bullet seed.

Then again PT recovery isn't very good at all so maybe Rainbow Cruise would be a good choice ~shrugs~ I just pick FD and switch to Zelda in this match up because Zelda has a easier and more solid answer then sheik.

Oh and keep in mind that fire does extra knock back on Ivysour so vanish and din fire will be more deadly to him.

edit: Hey isn't Zelda attack electric, does anyone know if those type of attacks effect PT?

 

[choknater]

just pick your best stage. pokemon trainer has so many options and strategies vs every character that you just have to play well. sheik destroys ivy because he is too fast for him, but squirtle can match sheik's speed and actually beats her in most situations. vs charizard don't get hit by the power stuff, and watch the flamethrower.

this matchup is MUCH more about the matchups than the stage because they can also (mostly squirtle) adapt to any stage.

just stick with sheik's best stages: bf, fd, and norfair/luigi's if they're allowed

haha, ironically, you can also pick pokemon stadium 1 to get low % tipper usmash ko's, and to mess up squirtle/charizard's recovery. they all have powerful usmashes though so be careful.

if u guys didnt notice, i main PT now ^^

 

[JackieRabbit5]

yah kinda hard to counterpick against PT since hes 3 chars in one
i was surprised with how a squirtle did against my sheik once b4

anyways maybe a stage where he'd have trouble switching out would be good, i'd probably go FD

and i don't think electric attacks do effect PT...just fire, water, grass but fires the only useful one heh

 

[Tristan_win]

If you have trouble with Squrtle just chain camp him. That's what I did before I just switch over to Zelda purely for this match up.

 

[choknater]

squirtle can just water gun u. chain is an annoying, laggy keep away, and so is water gun.

squirtle is actually the best against zelda out of the 3 pokemon, tristan. weave in and out, get in close... its kinda like wario vs zelda, just gotta know the openings and zelda is beaten fairly easily

 

[Tristan_win]

squirtle can just water gun u. chain is an annoying, laggy keep away, and so is water gun.

squirtle is actually the best against zelda out of the 3 pokemon, tristan. weave in and out, get in close... its kinda like wario vs zelda, just gotta know the openings and zelda is beaten fairly easily

The water gun is odd, I recall hearing it can do damage but then I see it not do any damage to me when I had the chain out. Also I wouldn't call the chain laggy myself just hard to use.

Anyways even if squirtle does water gun you off the side of the stage sheik will end the move thus allow you to recover.

A good PT is no push over for Sheik that's for sure, he has enough options to really f*** you up and with his changing between stock so you are force to remember lots of percentages and are force to mix it up to approaches. Most likely what's happening when I pick Zelda is that the players I'm fighting isn't that knowledgeable about sheik or Zelda and don't know how to dismantle Zelda so that's why my Zelda does so much better.

Mix that with me not really caring much about PT so I don't really brother learn all the % for combos and such like I would for top and high tier.

 

[East]

Squirtle's watergun does damage up-close. I'm talking ridiculously up close. He has to basically be humping your leg. I was shocked when I found out too.

I find myself picking Lylat for this matchup. I feel that it's easier to get the Pokemon off the edge and just gimp them. Their recoveries are pretty crappy after all. Then again, I don't play a whole lot of pokemon trainers, and the ones I do play probably aren't any good...

: x

 

[Palpi]

Yeah since Lylat would be the best stage to gimp their bad recoveries and because of its straight forward layout with plats it can be a good pick for aerial combos ground combos and needles. Too bad Lylat is super A.D.D. and i can't concentrate on it.

 

[choknater]

charizard has a decent recovery if he was hit high, cuz he can glide with one jump and still have his next one

if squirtle recovers high he can withdraw to have an invincible recovery, but if u attack him he will be turned around and he is totally screwed. footstooling withdraw also ***** squirtle but that's hard to do

we all know about ivy's recovery lol

 

[Palpi]

How good it is?

 

[East]

How good it is?

we all know about ivy's recovery lol

lol, that good.

 

[Flamingo]

I think Lylat Cruise is Sheik's best. Against everyone I have faced, I could be missing someone though.

 

[Tristan_win]

I think Lylat Cruise is Sheik's best. Against everyone I have faced, I could be missing someone though.

I hate Lylat for it's moving edge and nearly constant leaning the stage does.

It makes it harder to recover and makes it nearly impossible to camp at times. I just don't like that stage, heck at times if you start the transformation it takes even longer then normal.

Anyways we should move on to someone else.

 

[<π]

I don'tthink you can upsmash through all the platforms either...

I like it and Luigi's because it his harder to be camped by say wolf and pit(to an extent...) who have faster projectiles than you. the ship some times nullifies that option. The moving edge can be troubling (play there a lot and you can figure the error margins into your head) But it effect a bunch of characters negatively. (for the most part the horizontal recovery characters the most, then the aiming, vertical characters a generally uneffected)
Zelda has it the worst with recovery there I think she doesn't sweet spot and her travel distance is so long that even slight changes can mean the difference between over, under and sweet.
Transforming can take longer if you are fighting with the stage transformation. And that is bad...

Tristain is right though next char.

 

[Lore]

Ok then, I just was busy with power going out and whatnot so I wasn't able to change the thread.

Next up is Samus.

I think we're doing good so far.

 

[Tristan_win]

Samus is a character of control, her whole game revolves around keep away only to come in close if given the opportunity to safely or is force to fight up close which sheik destroys her in. Because of that multiple level stages, moving stages, and small stages give her trouble as she is unable to keep that control.

I think I would pick Battlefield or Rainbow Cruise for this match up.

 

[Flamingo]

I hate Lylat for it's moving edge and nearly constant leaning the stage does.

It makes it harder to recover and makes it nearly impossible to camp at times. I just don't like that stage, heck at times if you start the transformation it takes even longer then normal.

Anyways we should move on to someone else.

Are you not a gimping Sheik? If not, Battlefield might be for you, although be wary of Marthas, mind you. As for me, I love any off the edge game, and find that Lylat is my CP when playing as Sheik. Why? Running off the edge, bair-ing people off the stage, so they get hit under, or if they are far away, f-air-> chain recovery. These can gimp at 30-60ish if you can lure them into your trap. Remember. People hate that stage because it tilts away from them as they are trying to recover. My fellow Sheiks, it will happen to you as well if you Vanish recover. The tether recovery seems like it does not even factor the stage tilt. USE THE CHAIN.

And to add to the current discussion... Samus, as I am biased toward Lylat in he first place, I believe I can add some facts that may make you guys believe Lylat is in our favor. Okay. You know how the stage is shaped like /-----\ roughly... (with the ---'s being a bit higher) well we can use our tiny progectiles and skim over the stage while on the far left or right. I'm going to check later, but I believe on the extremes of the stage, Samus's missiles/plasma cannon might actually hit and be stopped by the floor of the stage. This pretty much eliminates Samus's ability to camp and gives it to Sheik. Which allows us to play a more defensive game. This is what I think. Tell me what you think about what I had to say please.

 

[Zankoku]

Uh, what kind of player lets himself get hit by a reverse bair and DI it so poorly that it sends them under the stage?

 

[JackieRabbit5]

well i think Battlefield is a no-brainer for one, Samus projectiles less effective just watch out for zair and its easier to get close and rack up damage

ironically i think her own stages would be good cps too lol...Frigate Orpheon and Norfair

 

[Flamingo]

Uh, what kind of player lets himself get hit by a reverse bair and DI it so poorly that it sends them under the stage?

IDK, PEOPLE TRYING TO RECOVER???

Actually probably the kind of player who gets beat up by a Yoshi his 1st stock then has to switch to zelda to kill him for one life.. hmmmm... i wonder... Ankoku *cough* btw although it was a comeback, please dont post that crap in the best player's vids btw.

 

[Zankoku]

Oh snap, talking about a vid of a match that happened before you even joined Smashboards. Real great ad hominem there. Next you should refer to the vid of me playing back in February as a measure of my skill, lolz.

Anyone who's trying to recover without getting killed in a really stupid way will either try to recover safely from above the stage or properly cover himself with either lasting attacks or projectiles on the way back. If you drop down trying to connect with a bair, anyone who has a reaction time of a typical human being will Up+B because Samus' Screw Attack outright beats out the bair.

 

[JackieRabbit5]

yeah that was uncalled for flamingo...and i hope ur not underestimating Yoshi too

 

[Flamingo]

Sorry Ankoku I did not mean anything personal, I actually get a lot of those kills with that b-air if the opponent makes an error. Sorry I got a little flustered You might know this already, but if the other person drops down while hanging on ledge to jump up that way, I have an opportunity to stage spike, and if they mis-time the attacking recovery, Sheiks leg will hit them on-stage from the back.

And I wasn't talking about solely Samus, and perhaps I used the example at the wrong time, I like using it on Diddy etc. We dont have a good Samus player where I'm at. But we do have a LOT of skill.

And Jackie, im sorry but imo Sheiks should beat Yoshis in general.