Sheik's Counterpicks Against Specific Characters (Link current)

[Flamingo]

Essientially, Any stage that doesn't have ledges are good for Olimar. Generally of course.

CP Frigate Orpheon and Rainbow Cruise. I believe I know this matchup better than anyone else on these boards, for I play everyday against my doubles partner, whom is a great Oli player. The problem is, the Olimar will actually probably change their character before playing on these stages because it is so bad for him.

Reasons: Olimar's recovery is bad. It gets even worse when he doesn't have any edges to tether to. Both of these stages have limited 'edges' on them. Rainbow Cruise is big, and you can circle camp (if you must) with needles, etc.. and force him to play in the air where he is weak (Attack from below or side, not from above.) You are probably weakest while you are actually on he ship, just pull out the chain. DACUS works extremely well on the top of RC. Use it.

 

[Voyeur]

were is werekill =O

I agree about that totally though on limiting the area of tetherable ledges, even though it semi-hurts Sheik's own recovery but Vanish is still there with Fair I suppose for recovery.
But yeah, Norfair and SmashVille for Mario have been my 2 dominating stages against a lvl 9 CPU and 2 days ago against my own friend who uses him as a 2ndary.

 

[stealth3654]

Grab release to DACUS seems to work

 

[Flamingo]

Grab release to DACUS seems to work

Vs Mario? Or Oli?

 

[Voyeur]

Vs Mario? Or Oli?

mario I'm sure since on multiple accounts I've seen the grab release + dacus work, and Jabs from ftilt on him. I tend to play more of a camping game with Olimar.

 

[Flamingo]

mario I'm sure since on multiple accounts I've seen the grab release + dacus work, and Jabs from ftilt on him. I tend to play more of a camping game with Olimar.

Sweet. There is only 1 mario main where I live though, and he hardly plays. So yeah, I'll definately try it the next time I play him. How do Mario's fireballs work? Can they only bounce a certain number of times? Cause it seems like they go a lot further if shot in the air.

 

[rinoH]

just take mario to norfair lol

 

[FrozenFire13]

Ok, who are we discussing now? Mario or Olimar?

 

[Lore]

*sigh* sorry guys, I got caught up doing things related to school and all that. I'll update more now.

moving on, I guess olimar can be skipped since you guys have gone ahead and done his...

Added battlefield for oli since it is super easy to edge hog him there.

Skipping Luigi and putting the same as mario unless someone wishes to argue.

Now its meta knight.

 

[Flamingo]

Good choice... I've been waiting for this one. I suggest Battlefield because it (sort of) limits MK's air game... I am not too familiar with the MK matchup though.

 

[FrozenFire13]

I actually would suggest Luigi's Mansion. Granted I'm suggesting this without fully knowing MK's advantages there, but I know what we can do. We have needle locks to DACUS from bouncing them off the bottom ceiling. And when the mansion get destroyed, we have the grab release to DACUS. Final Destination is good for the grab release as well, but MK's advantages probably outweigh ours

 

[Blistering Speed]

I actually would suggest Luigi's Mansion. Granted I'm suggesting this without fully knowing MK's advantages there, but I know what we can do. We have needle locks to DACUS from bouncing them off the bottom ceiling. And when the mansion get destroyed, we have the grab release to DACUS. Final Destination is good for the grab release as well, but MK's advantages probably outweigh ours

Yes, they do. Never take a MK to Luigi's Mansion. Seriously.

MK is incredibly hard to counterpick, he adapts to virtually every stage well, he's reminiscent of Melee Fox (but atleast then there was lava abuse on Brinstar). MK really doesn't have any stage that I can think of where Sheik can abuse the stage's facets better then MK can.

 

[East]

Metaknight...

: **** it....

But on a more serious note, I'm not too knowledgeable on this matchup [though I should be, for tourneys sake]. I would figure any level without platforms [or at least too many] I don't like the idea of final destination because of metaknight possibly shuttle looping me at the point right under the ledge [Sheik already has enough problems trying to recover from there.] I'd like to say smashville, but really, the platform would only really serve to help metaknight further kill sheik. The only pros I see for the moving platform there are possible up smashes or DACUS kills. Personally I'd take him to Smashville, but I would like to assume I'm wrong and have better options.

 

[JackieRabbit5]

this one should be interesting...

what about norfair? Both are supposed to do well on it but i wonder who does better

 

[choknater]

I personally pick Battlefield and FD because I'm very comfortable on them. I'd imagine MK wouldn't have any stage disadvantages against Sheik, even on Norfair. Sheik has chain tricksies on Norfair, but MK has drill and shuttle loop tricksies on that stage too. He can move very well. On Battlefield, Sheik can at least use her short hop height and her utilt to utilize the platforms.

If you're very good at GR -> usmash, then pick FD. Do it at like 70% or so and he's gone.

 

[<π]

On FD you can pretend you can camp him.
I like norfair FD and battlefield for the same reasons as chok.

 

[clowsui]

Learn a secondary
If you get Sheik vs MK on the blind pick get Smashville BF FD; after that if he CPs you then pick a secondary, he will definitely pick a stage where you can't needle camp or grab reliably >__>

 

[rinoH]

yeah i agree with clowsui use someone else like for me i use diddy against mk

 

[FrozenFire13]

Learn a secondary
If you get Sheik vs MK on the blind pick get Smashville BF FD; after that if he CPs you then pick a secondary, he will definitely pick a stage where you can't needle camp or grab reliably >__>

yeah i agree with clowsui use someone else like for me i use diddy against mk

You don't HAVE to learn a secondary. In fact, if you're good enough, obviously, you shouldn't need to switch. I would also like to note that I'm extremely stubborn when it comes to match-ups lol.

But seriously, if you can just win the first fight, then they'll counter you, so you pick your secondary at their cp, then if you lose there, switch back to Shiek and take them to FD or Smashville for the grab release DACUS.

 

[Canvasofgrey]

The key to getting the best advantage against MK is a large stage. Battlefield is a bit too small for my liking on Shiek, but Final Destination is pretty nice and you can try to screw him over at Pokemon Stadium, but DACUSing will probably be limited there.

Oh, ban Rainbow Cruise.

 

[SinkingHigher]

Honestly, this matchup is all about out-fundamentalling MK. Essentially you're both characters in the same game and you have to adhere to the same physics and rules and such. Spacing and timing is key. Learning to wait for, see, and take advantage of opportunities is the only way to win.

You can't be agressive with him AS SHEIK because his defense game is near-perfect. Zelda, on the other hand, seems to do better if you know how to be consistently and intelligently aggressive.

This matchup is not impossible by any means. MK's different playstyles mean you need to learn how to adapt when he turns agressive. He can't camp you, so needle the hell out of him. Spam the ****ing things. I wouldn't advise using the chain so much. He seems to escape chainlocks quickly and his recovery (AKDNMGKLANMDGA) can get through chainguards.

Zelda, for the most part, seems to outrange him, and he multihit attacks are hard for him to escape, including the d-tilt lock, which aparently can lead to guaranteed lightning kick. This means you only need to get him to about 80% and transform.

This isn't a matchup where slow blows over time will win the race. You need to get him injured as fast and safely as possible (projectiles, locks, smashes) and then safely transform (if you take a hit, imo, so be it.) and either D-smash or lightningkick the mother.

Plz note this is a very general "strategy" and has to be adapted to YOUR playstyle as well as the MK you face, and it is just an opinion I have generated from personal experience.

 

[-Mars-]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Halberd yet.....that is imo the best stage not named FD that you could take MK too.

Grab release to DACUS kills earlier than on FD, Zelda's usmash kills earlier than on FD, and if you happen to get lucky and land an aerial with Zelda in this matchup it can kill at INSANE percentages.

Halberd is also a large stage that helps Sheik in forcing approaches. You can needle and chain camp fairly effectively here and the platform gives you more options against his various approaches. Sit under the platform and pull out the chain and if you use it right it could be a while before he is able to hit you out. The platform also can help you with landing tippers, utilt poking, and taking advantage of Sheiks great platform pressure game.

Sheik also has a wall cling on the sides of the stage....nothing too big but it is a nifty trick that you can pull out every now and again.

But yes, I agree you will lose most of the time on the MK players counterpick........but then you pick Halberd. I've considered picking up a secondary for MK, but i'm still very interested in the chains possibilities against him.

Edit: Sinking you shouldn't be using the grounded version of the chain against MK....only the SH version.

 

[Flamingo]

I found out my Sheik playstyle blows against MK the last time I faced a good one.

I concentrate on my aerial game. It's been a good two months. I will duel an MK tomorrow. I will report my results. PS: I vote for FD.

 

[stealth3654]

I found out recently that you can pivot grab MK out of his tornado.

 

[-Mars-]

I found out recently that you can pivot grab MK out of his tornado.

Please don't ever do that.....just throw a needle.

 

[Canvasofgrey]

I found out recently that you can pivot grab MK out of his tornado.

Why do that when needle is safer and longer range?

 

[clowsui]

I somehow forgot about Halberd
This is probably because I play Marth and Falco mostly and MKs always ban that vs. Marth or that if they don't ban FD for Falco
3 Best Options, in order:
FD
Halberd
Smashville

in general the strategy should be to needle camp as much as possible, putting up the shield to see his reactions when he tornados close by...if he keeps up the approach you'll probably want to try and roll out so you take some chip damage but you're at least out, if he sits in front of you you're going to want to try and chuck a needle or something or at least tilt up...wanna try to throw in simple ftilt combos, getting in the lock if you can - don't mess up because he'll up b or dair camp otherwise...don't get too hasty for grabs, MKs will space themsleves out of grab range and lord knows sheik's grab lags are TERRIBLE
oh yeah
DON'T GET PREDICTABLE WITH RECOVERY
Even if you take damage this way, recover from BOTH above and below the lip
Smart MKs will just put massive ledge pressure + edgeguarding pressure on you if you start dipping below the stage because if you go past a point it's very easy to see how you will recover because it's your best option and you will do it instinctively
zelda is NOT good for this matchup because she's fat and falls into tornado, i don't care how you want to put it -_- sheik is light enough to DI up and out and jump at least. further more zelda's horizontal spacing and DTilt spacing is WRECKED by MK's range. don't go zelda. you want speed at the very least >_>
keeping all these ideas in mind this means that flat stages with slightly larger blast zones are preferable to maintain optimal recovery conditions + needle conditions
avoid moving stages at all costs if you're staying sheik >__> unless you're REALLY confident
just...stay on flat stages. don't go norfairkuzza (chok am i doing it rite) x_X

Yoshi's is a terrible idea vs MK btw >_>

 

[Villi]

DON'T GET PREDICTABLE WITH RECOVERY

+1!

You can change up your recovery in lots of ways and he probably has an answer for all of them that will make you die.

Zelda isn't so bad in the matchup. Aggro Zelda gets her butt kicked, but she can punish him and space against him defensively. Just learn to punish his juggle pressure/escape it.

 

[-Mars-]

Clowsui, I don't think Zelda does that bad against MK. Zelda has a plethora of moves that beat the tornado......and she's light so she can DI up out of the tornado in some cases. I don't know what you're talking about when you say Sheik is light.....she's still a fastfaller. Zelda is far better at being able to DI up out of the nado.

Zelda also has dtilt and fsmash which are both fairly safe on shield while Sheik really doesn't have much safe on shield in this matchup. She also has naryus so you can take advantage of the invincibility frames on those MK's that love to dsmash twice as an OoS option. In fact, Zeldas OoS options are among the best in Brawl: bair, usmash, dtilt, naryus, dsmash....very lethal moves. The fact that she has the potential to kill MK at the 60-70% range is always going to keep her in the match imo.

Her usmash prevents MK from just making any aerial approach that he wants. Granted his aerials will outrange her usmash in most cases....but he has to space well or he will get punished. Also, we've recently learned that Zeldas utilt can trade with any move in the game and will never clank as long as you initiate the move in time.

True, she doesn't rack damage as effectively as Sheik, but her dtilt is decent for damage. Her grab also has good range....even though it's slow it's very underrated and each throw plus pummel does 12-15%. SHe also prevents MK from using his glide freely because of Dins.

 

[<π]

Zelda gets destroyed in the air by metaknight. like chained-offstage-destroyed.

Zelda isn't horrible... well she is horrible XD. She lacks the range for her fast out of shield options to be viable against a meta who is spacing properly. Conversely Zelda doesn't have a strong answer to meta's dair out of shield or shuttle loop OoS.

Sheik has bair which keeps you out of grab range, shuttle range, and dsmash range. And will shield poke (sheild stab, whatever) much better than Zelda's "pokes". And again similar OoS options, obviously dsmash, dtilt, nair, jab->jab->ftilt lock being one of the better ones, yeilding damage that zelda can't really get at those mid percents 30->70, and of course dash attack out of shield which can punish a shielded down smash if I'm not mistaken.

needles stop tornado. smash (Tap) DI up + nair will get you out of tornado so often.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

Zelda, for the most part, seems to outrange him, and he multihit attacks are hard for him to escape, including the d-tilt lock, which aparently can lead to guaranteed lightning kick. This means you only need to get him to about 80% and transform.

The LK isn't guaranteed because of MK's funky dizzy animation. Landing an aerial however, will kill at absurd percentages.

 

[Voyeur]

kek, what happened to the Luigi discussion?
Add Frigate orpheon to Mario CP because it makes it just as easy to gimp him there as Olimar.

Battle Field isn't that great for any sort of advantage against Luigi, in fact it gives him platforms to stop needle camping. Instead I would suggest Final destination for the total distance you can cover and camp more with needles and other viable stages would be Halberd and Corneria.

Halberd offers the same advantages as FD, the long ground to fight on for camping and during the moving stage you can abuse Vanish a lot more to recover and buy time, maybe even land some 15% hits
Corneria, I just love camping the nook at the back of the Great Fox and wall teching to save my *** from after DI from fire punches. Sure it forces you to be a more aggressive Sheik player, ditching more needle camping for Jabs, Ftilt to Nair and etc but you can get some real easy gimps with Fair or Chain from the back of the stage against Luigi.


As for MetaKnight......I honestly haven't fought enough to say. Any level where you can easily dash off to a side to deploy the chain quick enough.

 

[Flamingo]

As for MetaKnight......I honestly haven't fought enough to say. Any level where you can easily dash off to a side to deploy the chain quick enough.

I'm the same with inexperience against good MKs. But SERIOUSLY. Chain DESTROYS all the floaties I have faced.

 

[-Mars-]

Zelda gets destroyed in the air by metaknight. like chained-offstage-destroyed.

Zelda isn't horrible... well she is horrible XD. She lacks the range for her fast out of shield options to be viable against a meta who is spacing properly. Conversely Zelda doesn't have a strong answer to meta's dair out of shield or shuttle loop OoS.

Sheik has bair which keeps you out of grab range, shuttle range, and dsmash range. And will shield poke (sheild stab, whatever) much better than Zelda's "pokes". And again similar OoS options, obviously dsmash, dtilt, nair, jab->jab->ftilt lock being one of the better ones, yeilding damage that zelda can't really get at those mid percents 30->70, and of course dash attack out of shield which can punish a shielded down smash if I'm not mistaken.

needles stop tornado. smash (Tap) DI up + nair will get you out of tornado so often.

Sheik gets destroyed in the air by MK as well........in fact 90% of the cast does. Since when did Sheik have an answer to MK's OoS options?

Zeldas fsmash is a far better poke/spacing tool than Sheiks bair. I can't believe that you even said Sheiks bair will shield stab better than Zelda's fsmash.

Zeldas IDA can also punish a shielded dsmash from MK and her fsmash can as well iirc.

Dins fire and dtilt both stop tornado.

 

[Flamingo]

Zeldas IDA can also punish a shielded dsmash from MK and her fsmash can as well iirc.

Dins fire and dtilt both stop tornado.

What is IDA?

Din's fire only hits half the time vs MK's tornado. Trust me, I play a good Zelda where I live regularly, and I second MK.

 

[Canvasofgrey]

What is IDA?

Din's fire only hits half the time vs MK's tornado. Trust me, I play a good Zelda where I live regularly, and I second MK.

I imagine in Pends where you detonate Din's Fire. I think Above MK, Right at his center, and below him you'll beat out on Priority, but I don't think it apples to the sides.

 

[Flamingo]

Also, if Din is extended to maximum range (that means maximum power too), I believe that beats out the tornado too... but why would MK use tornado that far away?

 

[<π]

Sheik gets destroyed in the air by MK as well........in fact 90% of the cast does. Since when did Sheik have an answer to MK's OoS options?

Okay, okay agree, what I should have said was sheik has better options over all since her moves generally come out so much faster than zelda's. Dair helps to descend quickly, nair is a solid way to beat out shuttle loop, bair is awesome and will actually hit through meta's fair if you time it correctly (though I believe that is true with zelda as well). With sheik you also have much better recovery options, that is a huge plus against the meta.
Sheik doesn't really have an answer to metaknights OoS stuff but she can better avoid it thanks to low cool down on her moves better and better movement speed.

Zeldas fsmash is a far better poke/spacing tool than Sheiks bair. I can't believe that you even said Sheiks bair will shield stab better than Zelda's fsmash.

I've never in all my days shield poked with zelda's fsmash I've shield broken, but not shield poked. fsmash has what five hits? They pull the opponent in for the final hit to connect. just by the nature of the move it makes it very difficult to shield poke. The last hit of the move hits even further away than the first four so if those first jolts hit the shield you can rest assured the last one will as well.
A well positioned bair will shield poke pretty often of characters who hide in their shield since it's hit box is so small, or thin rather. as the shield gets smaller you can bair above it and get a connection with the character and avoid the shield. I do this several time a match.
The pro about sheik's bair that zelda doesn't have is it's speed both start up and on end. Even wiffed bairs are difficult to directly punish a wiffed fsmash will lead to a grab or some aerial approach 100% of the time against meta.

Zeldas IDA can also punish a shielded dsmash from MK and her fsmash can as well iirc.

I don't know about that, I'll definitely check it out though. IDA I could maybe see working, fsmash is hard for me if meta spaced his dsmash correctly.

Dins fire and dtilt both stop tornado.

I've seen meta blow right through din's but I've also seen it stop teh tornado as well. positioning it correctly is tricky and unreliable against a player a lot of the time espeacially when you concider the start up on meta's nado is much shorter than even an instant din's.
And dtilt really, that I did not know? If meta comes in that low sheik's dsmash probably could as well... I'll have to test that.
Naryu's can be a good answer to tornado I believe...


That said I'm not attacking your point or anything. I'm just trying to say sheik is viable against competent meta knights, even more so than zelda.

 

[Voyeur]

Level and counter pick discussion, not match up here =P
So considering everything you guys have said, what levels would give Sheik the edge over Meta Knight's game. I know usually Luigi's mansion is up there to put a halt on his aerial game.

Any others?

 

[Blistering Speed]

No, not Luigi's mansion. MK wrecks inside the actual walls, Tornado is freaking stupid there (amongst other things). Not to mention if it limits his aerial game it also limits ours and MK's ground game>>ours. Pillars stop needle camping whilst they hold no disadvantage to MK. High vertical ceiling IIRC, MK kills the vast majority of the time horizontally where as Sheik's will often try and rely on grab release U Smash.