Sheikah Survival Guide: A Sheik Match-up Thread

[iLight]

unless you predicted wrong and at mid range samus traded with needle damage for a charge beam.

that said it shouldn't happen often. if samus is charging you are giving her too much breathing room. you can bait charge beam just as easily as she can bait your needles. except watch the start up for charge beam is way easier...

It can happen though if you aren't looking out. Charge beam for needles even fully charged is a trade I'd take all day. espeacially in that match up.

ew, i would not, **** camping at long range in that match up. like i said i'd rather sit mid ranged, powershield a few projectiles, run in and punish, then follow up with needles and do it again

 

[<π]

I think samus has the hardest time at mid range against sheik.

long range is free time to charge. too close you get ftilts and jabs that can be dicicult to get through. nair and fair actually I'd imagine being a good deturant to aerial attacks up close. mid range she has one option and you can punish it on reaction and pretty much force her to make bad choices.


EDIT:
OH!! Last post I forgot to add "If I was samus" on the end of that last sentence.lol

 

[Cherry64]

haha I honestly and truly disagree. mid range means the length of her z air, where that'd hit and have us NOT get by you because of our bad hitstun. that to me is mid range, is the place where our tilts would hit, and our second jab, aka the only things we would use (lol minus the second jab) so that, is medium length to me, and that is the perfect range to keep sheik at, she can't get ANY closer or we're ****ed.

 

[NO-IDea]

haha I honestly and truly disagree. mid range means the length of her z air, where that'd hit and have us NOT get by you because of our bad hitstun. that to me is mid range, is the place where our tilts would hit, and our second jab, aka the only things we would use (lol minus the second jab) so that, is medium length to me, and that is the perfect range to keep sheik at, she can't get ANY closer or we're ****ed.

The good part is that when they get close (there's no if, it happens,) they've got jab and f-tilt.

Samus can avoid f-tilt locks (or at least not suffer as much as the rest of the cast.) N-air breaks it once you get high enough, of which you can DI to get high enough because of her floatiness. And if Sheik uses jab 2, Samus can DI away and jump out.

Therefore, this limits Sheik to jab 1->followups or just f-tilt->followups.

jab 1-->/f-tilt/d-tilt-->aerial/f-tilt...

Or just f-tilt-->2nd f-tilt-->aerial/u-tilt. (N-air can break this after the 2nd f-tilt at nearly all percentages. Therefore, Sheik may just end the lock early.)

If you know Sheik, this is rather a small string compared to her other MUs.

There's also jab 1 -> dash grab, but if Samus mashes on A, there's not enough hitstun for Sheik to land the grab after jab 1 before Samus jabs. Only after jab 2 can they possibly land a dash grab, but Samus can DI and jump out higher percentages. At high percentages, jab 1 may have enough hitstun alone to chain dash grab, but that's only at high percentages. The jab 1->jab 2-> d-smash still won't work until very high percentages. (D-smash is still fast, mind you. They can kill Samus with that move stand alone.)

However, Sheik's moves are all good OoS too. Meaning almost every approach outside of Samus's missile cancling and z-air can get *****, and Samus being brought in close range. Then, Samus breaks out of close range and attempts to keep distance again. Essentially, it all boils down to Sheik trading off bigger and better hits than Samus.

Anyway, this is what I mean by knowing the match-up. Samus's floatiness decreases their millions of options to only hundreds. (hyperbole, but you get what I mean)

Sheik still wins though. She'll dish out more damage than Samus if the match always stays close range. But if the damage made is equal, Samus has the tools to kill and gimp her and pull the match in her favor.

 

[Cherry64]

oh I know the match up, and yes you are defnitely right, our weight schematics do help out here, but really wah'ts the diff between 3 hits and 4? they rarely ever sit there and side tilt all day, I suffered a big chain from a sheik, think it was jab>jab>needle throw and ended up in a grab, pretty sure there was a weak b air in there too.

If I had known they were going t do that, i would have DI'd it, but hell if I know what combo's sheiks can do, that was NOT a regular one. that was the most imaginary string I've ever seen. I know sheiks movements and I know that if you are smart with her and able to keep her moving, that she's hard to beat.

 

[NO-IDea]

Gosh. Samus mains invading the Sheik boards.

jab>jab>needle storm>grab? Haha, I do find that interesting. I don't think I've ever seen Sheik's use that (they do AAA combo>needle storm.) If they try needle storm out of jab 2, there's not enough distance to stop Samus's n-air. But, her **** is fast, and that string is really whack, so I don't think anyone would see it coming. Fair enough. lolz

Personally, I think there's a big difference when you reduce strings from 4 hits to 3. Mathematically speaking, it spreads across decay more (less f-tilt) and lowers each string's total ouput by 5% or more. If Sheik pulls 4 strings a stock, that's at least 20% difference, meaning she's got to add in another string. Which spreads across more decay, since f-tilt locks don't work. Moar work for her.

If a Sheik is going to use f-tilt, they either use it seldomly or a lot. In between and the decay system screws her over.

 

[Cherry64]

oh! it was jab>Jab>ftilt>utilt>needle>then some other attacks and finished off with a grab. it hurt. it took me from one side of final D to the other side and resulted in an F air off-stage. the sheik was BA.

 

[NO-IDea]

You can break it off at the 2nd jab by DI/jumping away. If you don't, you probably won't be able to n-air in between f-tilt>u-tilt unless you're at high percentage or if the 2nd jab lifted you high enough.

So yeah, one chance to break the string. You miss it, that's an easy +20% string right there. Not including the air chase once the string ends (you got hit by f-air, that's more damage.)

Get ownt ninja style.

 

[KillerJawz]

I'd give this 55-45 Sheiks favour, I may push to 60-40 but I guess Im just kinda good against Sheiks <.<....

Just something quick to note, Sheik can easily **** our bomb recovery with her fair, bair, nair or needle storm, seriously the amount of times this happened to me was unbelievable, she just has to be careful to not get hit by a bomb otherwise she'll be eating a dair.

 

[iLight]

nair can cancel bombs and still hit, at least i'm pretty sure thats the case

 

[Cherry64]

nair can cancel bombs and still hit, at least i'm pretty sure thats the case

Pretty sure the explosion of bombs is ascended priority. or it is like an item, similar to links bombss

 

[stealth3654]

Yoshi is our next character.

Agents are GO!!! (Discuss!)

 

[saviorslegacy]

Ah hah, finally a match up that I have good offline experience at with a good player/not basing my opinion off of pure data.

Yoshi is an evil little anti-Christ on the ground and will punish you easily.
Against Sheik his air game isn't that great. Our Bair pierces his Bair, his Fair is to slow, Dair is pretty much a joke, Uair is only good when used with his heavy armor and Nair is basically only good for getting out of combo's.
If you try to approach on the ground WHAT so ever he will out range you with either his pivot grab or egg lay. After the egg lay hit the c-stick around very fast and come out with either a Fair, Bair or Nair.
I also would like to mention that if it is a KO move stay in the egg so that you will not take any knock back. Counter after his move.

Also never approach the ledge. Very very very bad idea. He will just throw egg's. Just power shield or find a safe spot. Best thing to do is wait. If he doesn't get off the ledge counter with Needle's. If you play smart you'll power shield the egg's, get a full Needle Storm and punish him. His is foolish to plank for to long.

Recovering isn't that tricky against him either. Just go for the usual.
Also don't try and gimp him.
The idea with this whole match up is stage control, not ledge control.


As a final key note I want to say that you want to constantly be spacing with Needle's and performing Bair in this match up. If you do he has a real tough time getting at you.
I say 50 - 50 since both put each other against hard walls.

 

[choknater]

yoshi is weird

just throw a lot of needles

if he is too close when he throws an egg, go in and punish him with dash attack

or grab/dacus if ur baller

umm

his movement is very weird like ness, so just watch him closely and react to wherever he goes

also

know what yoshi can use to approach... his bair especially

 

[Judo777]

I have some decent experience with this matchup. Firstly yoshi is heavier than u think killing him is not an easy task if they DI well. Yoshi does have pretty solid air game all of his aerials are good (except maybe fair) when combined with his ridiculous aerial speed. Dair is not so much an offensive move more like a way of covering you from attacking from underneathe as he is moving across the stage. Uair is one of his best kill moves be careful of this. And be mindful of his grab games as pivot grabbing is his fastest grab and his egg lay gives him aerial mixups. Also do NOT underestimate his Down-B its a great punisher if he hits you with the pop up and if done on slanted surfaces (like lylats or YI sides) he can make it safe.

As for what u should do um needles are ofc key in this matchup. we can outspeed him on the ground so we should try to use our mobility here to our advantage. ftilt works just make sure you end it before he DIs too far or youll be eating a nair. If he is on the ledge watch out for egg throws but if im not mistaken he can only throw a set number of eggs on the ledge before he wont regrab cause he drops too far so you can approach after. You can try to gimp offstage just be careful because he can come up with some powerful attacks. Most yoshis save their second jump and throw eggs foiorst to make up distance and distract u from gimping. Also you have to hit him at a certain time to knock him out of his heavy armor (Im not exactly sure how that works) . If you feeling lucky or the yoshi is not double jumping with an attackk you can go for a footstool and he dies.

Yoshis jab is actually pretty good and fast so watch out. and focus hard on your ftilt to upsmash's otherwise killing him will be quite a task. Got to agree with saviors the matchup is about stage control.

 

[stealth3654]

If Yoshi does a running grab and grabs you at the ledge, he can GR > fair.

 

[bigman40]

Basically what previous people have summed up the matchup. Both characters will be wanting to get stage control. It might also get sort of campy since both characters can shut down their approaches, as a whole, both characters are extremely solid in this fight. I will try to input more, but I have homework to do, and dinner to cook.

 

[saviorslegacy]

If Yoshi does a running grab and grabs you at the ledge, he can GR > fair.

lol
That doesn't work, we can Nair out of it.

 

[bigman40]

lol
That doesn't work, we can Nair out of it.

Have you done frame testing on it? I've tested that recently and frame data shows that we can get a free Fair on you guys over the ledge via grab release. If I need to, I'll get the numbers again.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Have you done frame testing on it? I've tested that recently and frame data shows that we can get a free Fair on you guys over the ledge via grab release. If I need to, I'll get the numbers again.

I've not done the number but I have Naired out of it.
If it is legit then it has to be like frame perfect.

ps I just remembered something.
Chain guarding Yoshi is very effective since you can stay away from eggs (some times), you keep him from reaching the ledge and you take away his second jump. It is only good when he doesn't have his heavy armor though. :/

 

[stealth3654]

InnocentRoads posted a vid of Yoshi's GR > spike on Sheik frame by frame.

Edit: Here is the vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AMmAj1m1dM&feature=channel_page

Edit again: I also found this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Upk2A42cCRQ&feature=channel , but it looks like it needs to be frame perfect.

 

[saviorslegacy]

InnocentRoads posted a vid of Yoshi's GR > spike on Sheik frame by frame.

Edit: Here is the vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AMmAj1m1dM&feature=channel_page

Edit again: I also found this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Upk2A42cCRQ&feature=channel , but it looks like it needs to be frame perfect.

IDK what roads was thinking but that Snake one is not legit, not even close. I tested it with a friend in 1/4 speed for 15 minutes and he wasn't able to re-grab me once (unless I let him).
You can jab out of it. (I still need to make a video showing his blunder.)

As for the Yoshi one......
I've not tested it like crazy but I have Naired out of it before. Nair takes 3 frames to open. That was enough to get the Yoshi.

 

[bigman40]

The frame data for the spike:

Yoshi recovers on frame 30
Shiek recovers on frame 51 (21 frame difference)
Yoshi's Fair comes out on frame 18
Shiek's fastest option is Nair (?) 3 frames

We have a 5-6 frame window to hit you guys before you can do anything to stop us.

Of course, if the Yoshi is being slow, then he's not going to get the spike, but over the ledge, it's simple when you just need to smash forward and smash for Fair.

 

[<π]

yoshi is horrbile I've never lost a match to a yoshi. fighting for stage control, thats funny.

 

[Zankoku]

IDK what roads was thinking but that Snake one is not legit, not even close. I tested it with a friend in 1/4 speed for 15 minutes and he wasn't able to re-grab me once (unless I let him).
You can jab out of it. (I still need to make a video showing his blunder.)

Yes, because 1/4 speed is totally more accurate than frame-by-frame testing.

 

[ddonaldo]

I would say we have the advantage against yoshi especially since he hasn't really got anything to punish us for being stupidly aggressive. He is very heavy though and tied with his jump invincibility makes he quite a hard character to KO
I have never played a yoshi which was able to "dragonic reverse" though so once again I cant contribute too much, but yoshi's bad shield lets us do things we should never be able to do against good players

And yay 300th post!

 

[saviorslegacy]

Yes, because 1/4 speed is totally more accurate than frame-by-frame testing.

In that speed we knew we were buffering it correctly/being frame perfect.
When Sheik is on the ground like that we can actually throw out our frame 2 jab and hit Snake right before he can grab.

I would say we have the advantage against yoshi especially since he hasn't really got anything to punish us for being stupidly aggressive. He is very heavy though and tied with his jump invincibility makes he quite a hard character to KO
I have never played a yoshi which was able to "dragonic reverse" though so once again I cant contribute too much, but yoshi's bad shield lets us do things we should never be able to do against good players

And yay 300th post!

Nicalobe DR's, some

 

[Zankoku]

Yes, because 1/4 speed is totally more accurate than frame-by-frame testing.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Yes, because 1/4 speed is totally more accurate than frame-by-frame testing.

Now I remember why I don't like you.
Watch the video, you can clearly see 2 frames where Sheik can jab.

SO I wanted to see it for my own eye's.
Sorry I posted telling of what happened. -_-

 

[Zankoku]

I watched it, and saw 4 frames of landing lag (you can jab 7 frames after landing, 4 frames of landing lag, 1 frame of input, 1 frame startup, hits on frame 7). Assuming the video is frame-perfect (which it should be since it's done frame-by-frame), that means Snake grabbed Sheik three frames before she could perform her fastest action to deal with a grab (jab trade), and four frames before she could interrupt it (jab interrupt).

3-frame window of success. Realistically not worth it (even at 1/4 speed you only have 1/5 second to dash forward and hit grab or you'll miss it), but still indicative of the grab release regrab actually being possible and true.

Because 1/4 speed is... forget it.

 

[-Mars-]

Renegade placed 4th at a touny with Ike? Wow.

 

[Judo777]

Ehhh i dont think chain guarding works well against yoshi offstage simply because most yoshis throw and egg at you before they use their second jump so you wouldnt have time to get the chain out. If they are already on the ledge then they can throw eggs at u.

And yes yoshis shield sucks so our moves are alot safer on sheild than normal ftilts are almost completly safe (if not completely safe). But yoshi does have some good reach on his moves with some good lean back on startup so watch out. And his aerial speed combined with his grab mixups can be pretty annoying. And yoshis air game isnt bad either.

 

[ddonaldo]

ankoku has a very valid point SL, the video perfect control from melee is a good example of this arguement.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYlXIjMfWbE
on paper its possible, but we are only human

But anyways at least 60:40 imo
Cant really think of any stage in particular where we excel against yoshi tbh, stage with a low ceiling perhaps to assist our up-smash?

 

[saviorslegacy]

Renegade placed 4th at a touny with Ike? Wow.

Told you Ike was good. <,<

ankoku has a very valid point SL, the video perfect control from melee is a good example of this arguement.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYlXIjMfWbE
on paper its possible, but we are only human

But anyways at least 60:40 imo
Cant really think of any stage in particular where we excel against yoshi tbh, stage with a low ceiling perhaps to assist our up-smash?

I am more than impressed with that video.

I would like to see a Snake try that.
It is hard to be frame perfect out of a grab release.

 

[clowsui]

how many frames do we have as margin of error to dacus mk from GR lol

 

[Delta-cod]

Erm, right...

Well, from all my experiences playing Sheik, it's a very even MU. Both characters shut down the other's approaches fairly well. Mainly about reading the player's patterns and punishing. So, I'll just try and clear up some misconceptions you guys are having. =/

Yoshi is not as easily gimped as some of you are thinking. Highest air speed with his massive DJAD as well as egg tossing makes it quite difficult for you to gimp him. It's not incredibly easy for us to gimp you either, though coming from below gives us more options to do it.

Ftilt lock can just be DJ'd out of, and I believe it's possible to tank the Ftilt and then counter with a Nair, unless you're doing an usmash out of it. It's weird, but I don't remember why it happens like that.

If you're just attempting to wall Bairs, an egg can simply knock you out of it. Usmashing is possible as well. Not that it's easy for any of these characters to approach in this MU. Stage control is indeed key here.

For stages, anything with closer ceilings help us out just as much, if not more, than it helps you. We love our usmash, and uair is a very good killing move. Down B also kills vertically. =P

This MU just comes down to stage control and the players themselves. I'd call it even.

 

[<π]

yoshi can't shut down fast ground based approaches at all. eggs have I think 900 frames of start up, they are a horrible anti air, at least in this match up. Egg toss can be punished on reaction every time.

his silly air game makes punishing with needles easy.

his horrible shield is horrible; so you can beast the crap out of him without fear.

yoshi has nothing over sheik spare powerful but slow kill moves. playing intelligently they should be very easy to avoid. uair is scary though.

lol, yoshi bair approaches.

as always people need ftilt knowledge. on the plus yoshi can jump out of utilt combo really easy.

I've played good yoshi so many times I've never lost to one ever. he can answer anything sheik can do.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Ganon boards are discussing Sheik.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=202473

 

[Poltergust]

yoshi can't shut down fast ground based approaches at all. eggs have I think 900 frames of start up, they are a horrible anti air, at least in this match up. Egg toss can be punished on reaction every time.

his silly air game makes punishing with needles easy.

his horrible shield is horrible; so you can beast the crap out of him without fear.

yoshi has nothing over sheik spare powerful but slow kill moves. playing intelligently they should be very easy to avoid. uair is scary though.

lol, yoshi bair approaches.

as always people need ftilt knowledge. on the plus yoshi can jump out of utilt combo really easy.

I've played good yoshi so many times I've never lost to one ever. he can answer anything sheik can do.

Apparently I haven't left a good impression with our friendlies last month. =/

As mentioned before, stage control is key here. It is difficult for either character to gimp the other. So, most kills will come from KOs. Yoshi pretty much outclasses Sheik in this department, but Sheik can change into Zelda to remedy this. Both characters need to take as little damage as possible.

Based off of my experience, an aggressive Sheik can be annoying to deal with, but if the Sheik is too aggressive Yoshi can punish easily; we aren't completely defenseless in that shield.

Also, one thing that we do have on Sheik is our pivot-grab. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that it out-ranges pretty much every move Sheik has (disregarding specials). An overly-aggressive Sheik will fall into our pivot-grabs many, many times. And although they are not that threatening, they do break up your flow and put you in a disadvantageous position, so Sheik needs to be careful here.

Seriously though, I have no clue how the match-up ratio is. I never fought Sheik players in tournaments, only in friendlies (the people that I have fought were <3 and Ed). So, take what I've said with a grain of salt if you so prefer.

 

[Delta-cod]

yoshi can't shut down fast ground based approaches at all. eggs have I think 900 frames of start up, they are a horrible anti air, at least in this match up. Egg toss can be punished on reaction every time.

his silly air game makes punishing with needles easy.

his horrible shield is horrible; so you can beast the crap out of him without fear.

yoshi has nothing over sheik spare powerful but slow kill moves. playing intelligently they should be very easy to avoid. uair is scary though.

lol, yoshi bair approaches.

as always people need ftilt knowledge. on the plus yoshi can jump out of utilt combo really easy.

I've played good yoshi so many times I've never lost to one ever. he can answer anything sheik can do.

I was going to ask who you were playing, then Polter answered. <3 Polter.

Anyways, let's see here...

Eggs: Not a true anti air. They force you to approach predictably or put you in a bad spot for follow ups. If you're punishing ONE egg toss with a grounded rush, the Yoshi must have thrown it wrong, or was WAY too close against someone as fast as Sheik.

I don't get what you mean by silly air game. @_@

The shield is bad, but we have ways to get out of it without much pain. Polter must be shielding too much. =D (<3 you Polt.)

Yoshi has an excellent grab, air speed, relatively easier time gimping, as well as better kill moves.

lol, Sheik bair wall.

Why don't you impart your knowledge unto us, o wise one?

Polt sucks Lol at the sentence.

I've played good yoshi so many times I've never lost to one ever. he can answer anything sheik can do

Glad you agree! Sheik can do the same, so it's an even MU.