Sheikah Survival Guide: A Sheik Match-up Thread

[stealth3654]

If we are gonna talk about this we should rediscuss the matchup.

Exactly what I was thinking. Since it seems no one is talking about PT anymore and we are already discussing MK, let's just continue the rediscussion of MK.

 

[saviorslegacy]

I'm that skill level
I eat MKs.

Meta has amazing tools, don't get me wrong but against sheik you can use them like you would against even characters like snake and D3. Sheik is way~ to fast to fall into alot of the spacing and camp traps other characters do. And conversly unlike most of teh cast sheik is flat out made to punish mistakes. dair nair fair bair, all of those can be punished on reaction by sheik with one of her aerials.
In lag, cuz MK has it, you can rack up big damage through ftilt locks and combos. fair/bair to tilts and grabs etc.
GRDacus is jawsome, though admittedly situational it opens up a lot of ops for kills at lower percents. sheik fortunately still has other kill ops in dsmash SSbair, nair, uair freash fair. usmash hits though nado I just found out lol.

MK has amazing tools, but trust me he isn't an impenetrable wall by any means. once sheik clears the gates she does some damage in there.

Ahhhh.. sorry <3
K, <3's cool and ***** MK. He also knows a lot about this match up. "YESSSS... another Sheik main that knows where I'm coming from."
Stated twice... just cuz (I was gonna put something epic right here but I forgot....)

Wait... punishing with Dair?
I mentioned Dair being a good attack in the Diary when used to attack people in the Air.
Dair attacking people on the ground= bad idea
Dair attacking someone in the air= good idea

BTW.... what's your opinion on MK Dair camping us and attack us from the air?

Exactly what I was thinking. Since it seems no one is talking about PT anymore and we are already discussing MK, let's just continue the re-discussion of MK.

K, not sure if we should invite MK mains cuz with me saying that Sheik has the advantage all hell will break loose! O-o
Worse case scenario is a scrub making a post in tactical saying that Sheik has the upper hand against MK! o.o'

 

[<π]

If I mentioned sheik's dair that was a complete mistake. dair is a bad move. especially against meta. It has high priorities because of it's weird hit box, but meta's stuff out ranges it.

 

[saviorslegacy]

If I mentioned sheik's dair that was a complete mistake. dair is a bad move. especially against meta. It has high priorities because of it's weird hit box, but meta's stuff out ranges it.

lol, I was gonna say...
I mean, Dair is useful but mainly against some like Donkey Kong (while he is in the air).

 

[clowsui]

Ahhhh.. sorry <3
K, <3's cool and ***** MK. He also knows a lot about this match up. "YESSSS... another Sheik main that knows where I'm coming from."
Are you trying to say that just because I don't agree with you I don't understand where you're coming from? Don't be so arrogant. I understand your argument, I don't agree with it.



K, not sure if we should invite MK mains cuz with me saying that Sheik has the advantage all hell will break loose! O-o
Worse case scenario is a scrub making a post in tactical saying that Sheik has the upper hand against MK! o.o'
I encourage you to post in the MK forums and debate Sheik matchup since they're looking for a matchup to discuss. I guarantee you that they'll prove you wrong...MK is adv. vs. Sheik.

Responses in underlines

 

[saviorslegacy]

Responses in underlines

Nah, that was poor wording on my part.
I wasn't trying to insult you.


Sheik is pretty advanced too. Ask Neo, Tristan, <3 or I. The information is floating around here and in our heads. Sheik might even have more stuff than MK. The Diary talks about many options that people don't know about.
(The reason why I still haven't released it is because I want to keep those options to myself.) (I want my opponents to have "WTF" moments NOT "ah, shoulda seen that comin moments.)

All we need to do is give a ***** slap to people who dis her by getting more pro's to play as her.
Since she is already low on the tier list people ignore her.

So the only solution is to do REALLLLLLY well. If no one else is willing to step up to the plate then I will do it.
My first problem is Mr. Broken. So I have done a TON of research on MK. Even used him for a while so I could learn his weakness;s better and a position that made me uncomfortable.
What made me uncomfortable was someone punishing my landing as well as getting in close and not backing off (as with most people). D3 feels uncomfortable in the air and so does Snake. That is why I think those character should be juggled more.

After researching MK for months, comparing counters for each other, looking at how well we can use a stage and our recovery/survival rate I have concluded that WHEN we can Grab Release> DACUS we have a 5 percent advantage. ALL other times it is strictly even.


Now let me ask you Clow. (No offense intended BTW dude.)
"How much research have you done or are you just going off what everyone else says?"
A wise man speaks his own words and walks his own trail.

 

[Judo777]

Just throwing this out there MK has lag but almost all of his moves have less lag than sheiks. When i was talking about the similar frame data sheiks move typically come out like 2 or 3 frames faster but mks moves tend to end about 5-6 frames faster. So MK can generally punish us as much as we can punish him because we have more lag than he does.

 

[CR4SH]

Fair, weak Nair, weak Bair, f-tilt , GR, f-tilt and jab all lead into grab at GR> DACUS percents.


He can however Dair camp to avoid it but that will only slowly get up his percent. It will reduce our grab options though.


At the rate I'm going I hope to be placing in tournies by 2010/2011.

A) Define lead into. If its not guaranteed, I don't want to hear about it.

B) Almost never will dair camping slowly raise his %. Almost always it will slowly raise yours.

C) not without ACTUALLY GOING TO TOURNAMENTS AND GAINING EXPERIENCE you won't.

Redundancy: Judo and chi actually go to tournaments, have played GOOD mk MAINS and know what they're talking about. Chill out and listen to them.

Just because you have more time to spend on smashboards and in training mode does not make you better or more knowledgeable. Promise.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Just throwing this out there MK has lag but almost all of his moves have less lag than sheiks. When i was talking about the similar frame data sheiks move typically come out like 2 or 3 frames faster but mks moves tend to end about 5-6 frames faster. So MK can generally punish us as much as we can punish him because we have more lag than he does.

Right, even
However, we can kill before him with GR> DACUS
If GR> DACUS isn't an option then it is 50 - 50

A) Define lead into. If its not guaranteed, I don't want to hear about it.

B) Almost never will dair camping slowly raise his %. Almost always it will slowly raise yours.

C) not without ACTUALLY GOING TO TOURNAMENTS AND GAINING EXPERIENCE you won't.

Redundancy: Judo and chi actually go to tournaments, have played GOOD mk MAINS and know what they're talking about. Chill out and listen to them.

Just because you have more time to spend on smashboards and in training mode does not make you better or more knowledgeable. Promise.

They are legit dude. You are trying to argue a match up and you don't even know if her set ups are legit or not. -_-

Then I guess he shouldn't attempt Dair camping.

I know

I believe they know what they are talking about but I also believe that they don't see Sheik the same way as <3 and I do.

lol @ last part
That's like saying "just because you have spent more time studying than me doesn't mean that your grade will be higher". Yeah, that is some what true but if I thought that was the case then I wouldn't be trying to prove a point. (No offense dudes, I respect ya both.)



Anyways, this is less of a match up discussion and more of a trying to prove the other one wrong debate. It will soon turn into a flame war and people will be throwing insults. So I would rather it stop here.

I will believe the way I believe and nothing youu say will change my mind. You probably feel the same.

 

[CR4SH]

Then I guess he shouldn't attempt Dair camping.

I feel like you must have misread.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHD54aUDcAw

I'll argue for mk in just about any matchup. Mostly because very very very few mks on earth actually know their matchups. MK has better options in pretty much every matchup becuase he has so much speed range and disjointedness. This gives him the option to attack when nearly every character has to shield or dodge. This applies to every matchup. The reason most mks don't know their matchups is because they don't have to. Playing mk solid, smart, smash style will win you most everything. This is an anomaly in smash, because in most matchups where your opponent is close to your skill level you have to play "the matchup" to win. That is, you have to know your options, their options, and what to do when. You have to know which moves to bait and how, which moves to punish and when. MK generally does not need to know this. So until you run into an MK that's good, and knows the shiek matchup, you really don't have a lot of room to talk. Go play judge.

 

[saviorslegacy]

I feel like you must have misread.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHD54aUDcAw

I'll argue for mk in just about any matchup. Mostly because very very very few mks on earth actually know their matchups. MK has better options in pretty much every matchup becuase he has so much speed range and disjointedness. This gives him the option to attack when nearly every character has to shield or dodge. This applies to every matchup. The reason most mks don't know their matchups is because they don't have to. Playing mk solid, smart, smash style will win you most everything. This is an anomaly in smash, because in most matchups where your opponent is close to your skill level you have to play "the matchup" to win. That is, you have to know your options, their options, and what to do when. You have to know which moves to bait and how, which moves to punish and when. MK generally does not need to know this. So until you run into an MK that's good, and knows the shiek matchup, you really don't have a lot of room to talk. Go play judge.

That= a lot of planking and avoiding

Sheik= faster than Falco
Sheik= second fastest jump
Sheik= Bair has more range
Sheik= Needle's and Chain destroy planking

We WERE talking about Sheik on paper vs MK on paper. So my personal experience with a MK that knows the Sheik match up doesn't mean squat.


BTW... I thought I said that this debate was over.
You cannot convince me. Anything that you say I have a counter for because I have already looked into it. In other words you are waisting your time posting you information and I am wasting my time posting a Sheik counter.


So yeah, I just remembered why I don't like match up discussions.

 

[CR4SH]

So my personal experience with a MK that knows the Sheik match up doesn't mean squat.

Seriously?

 

[saviorslegacy]

Seriously?

As far as mechanics go, "yes".

 

[Roxas1988]

Ive always thought of shiek as a good mk "counter". Reason being she has some moves that can outrange mk and the grab release dacus ***** mk.

 

[ddonaldo]

But at the higher percentages grabbing MK isnt easy, especially when the MK players finds out he shouldnt get grabbed. We must remember that there are intelligent MK players out there. They will avoid the grab at all costs and punish you HARD for it.
And avoiding grabs isnt that hard otherwise the ICs would be god tier seeing as grab can = death at all percentages.
Also when we do finally get the chance to grab MK, if we dont grab him in the right place = fail
if you are on a stage that isnt FD or SV, it wont work
I learnt this the hard way in battlefield, last stocks each, grabbed MK, GRed, and went for the DACUS only to eat a SL

I do like the positive approach to MK, but he can land a SL and dsmash way easier than we can land a grab in the right place, (if there is a right place)
and also I found out we are not invincible on pull-in with the tether recovery. =[

 

[kingcobra9]

Ive always thought of shiek as a good mk "counter". Reason being she has some moves that can outrange mk and the grab release dacus ***** mk.

well then we should have asked you a long time ago how to beat him

 

[saviorslegacy]

ddonaldo.. you used my name as a ver again. Just wondering what SL means....



I ask that the debate over MK stop. It was suppppposed to stop in this thread last night before any real fighter came about bu thanks to Clowsui it happened in the other thread too. -_-
So yeah, I request that we stop it right now before it gets any worse.
*slaps self for giving his opinion


Anyways... if you want to know my opinion on how to counter MK AIM me or PM me. If not then I guess we call it a 60 : 40 to keep everyone happy.

 

[ddonaldo]

aww but I like debates, I end up learning things I didnt know without having to ask lol
but yh i see your point, I guess we are just goin offtopic since most of us dont have much to say about PT.

oh and SL = shuttle loop

 

[saviorslegacy]

aww but I like debates, I end up learning things I didnt know without having to ask lol
but yh i see your point, I guess we are just goin offtopic since most of us dont have much to say about PT.

oh and SL = shuttle loop

yeah I just figured that out.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=8465501&posted=1#post8465501
****, I'm gonna get *****!

 

[clowsui]

Thanks for acknowledging my skill, you are going to get *****

 

[saviorslegacy]

Thanks for acknowledging my skill, you are going to get *****

pfffft.. not by you but by Red Halberd, Doom or any other MK main that wants to **** me.

 

[ddonaldo]

*Reads topic*
*Runs out of thread*
I will speak no more of the MK vs sheik matchup, things got scary in there
Would be so epic if you won though, gd luck anyways

 

[<π]

Ooo... I gotta go beat red halbred he lives a few miles from here... next gigs if he comes down.

I beat meta's without grab release dacus... just sayin' it is very situational you aren't always going to get the grab when you need it. BUT like I mentioned earlier... you have tons of kill options.

 

[stealth3654]

Yeah, you're not always going to have the luxury of being able to GR > DACUS. So instead you should keep your ftilt decayed so you can ftilt > up smash kill.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Yeah, you're not always going to have the luxury of being able to GR > DACUS. So instead you should keep your ftilt decayed so you can ftilt > up smash kill.

At f-tilt> USmash percents you can get a grab.

GR> DACUS only gets F'd up by platforms.

 

[ddonaldo]

but only if your ftilt is decayed which is hard when you have to spam needles alot, otherwise ftilt will send him way above your head.
EDIT: In fact we really have to use most of sheiks moveset so we cant really afford to spam ftilts to decay it

 

[saviorslegacy]

but only if your ftilt is decayed which is hard when you have to spam needles alot, otherwise ftilt will send him way above your head.
EDIT: In fact we really have to use most of sheiks moveset so we cant really afford to spam ftilts to decay it

hmmm.. good point

jab> grab is my answer

 

[Judo777]

the problem with GR>DACUS is that unless you are on FD it is really really situational cause all the other levels have platforms. Even on SV if you grab the mk at high percents he can wait for the moving platform to catch him when he breaks out. I mean if the mk is watching it pretty close its not very likely.

 

[saviorslegacy]

the problem with GR>DACUS is that unless you are on FD it is really really situational cause all the other levels have platforms. Even on SV if you grab the mk at high percents he can wait for the moving platform to catch him when he breaks out. I mean if the mk is watching it pretty close its not very likely.

Yeah I guess....

 

[gm jack]

Another answer to it is to keep Dsmash fresh. MK is very light. If you can get him near the edge, it is fast enough to be a viable kill move. Just need to find the kill percents for it now.

 

[Jupz]

GR-> Usmash is almost never going to work unless you grab him at the right spot on BF or something. Its not that much of a help in the matchup.

 

[gm jack]

I still don't know why this could be a Sheik advantage or anything. Sure if you play trump cards, Sheik has a fair few things on him. Realistically, MK simply has too many safe options everywhere. Bair out ranging doesn't matter because his laser priority will just hit your leg. He can just throw a lagless move out any time you get near. Chain camping simply has too small a range advantage to be safe for long. Grab releases are nice, but he simply has too many safe options all the time to get grabbed if he really doesn't want to get grabbed.

She has enough that 40:60 is pretty appropriate. It isn't ****, and it is more than winnable, but you will have to seriously outplay them to win consistently.

 

[Roxas1988]

I still don't know why this could be a Sheik advantage or anything. Sure if you play trump cards, Sheik has a fair few things on him. Realistically, MK simply has too many safe options everywhere. Bair out ranging doesn't matter because his laser priority will just hit your leg. He can just throw a lagless move out any time you get near. Chain camping simply has too small a range advantage to be safe for long. Grab releases are nice, but he simply has too many safe options all the time to get grabbed if he really doesn't want to get grabbed.

She has enough that 40:60 is pretty appropriate. It isn't ****, and it is more than winnable, but you will have to seriously outplay them to win consistently.

I use MK and went up against a really good shiek. As a matter of fact it was Snakeee's shiek wich really surprised me. I was destroying him early but come around second match when he chose shiek he had some pretty good moves to counter some of mk's. I was suprised to see her bair timed correctly could outprioritize the nadoe in the air. And the GR>Dacus is def his trump against mk. the only problem i really had was the decayed ftilt>usmash though as you said. We still won and moved on to lose to frickin ally and adhd. Those a holes lol. Shiek def has some option against MK though so check that out.

 

[j0s3ph]

Another answer to it is to keep Dsmash fresh. MK is very light. If you can get him near the edge, it is fast enough to be a viable kill move. Just need to find the kill percents for it now.

*cough*

To give a general idea of how much DI affects the percents, I tested Dsmash at FD edge in training mode with correct DI. I SDId the entire Dsmash up as well.

[B][SIZE="5"]Meta Knight 132%[/SIZE][/B]
[SIZE="1"]Mario 139%
Dedede 156%[/SIZE]

10char

 

[<π]

SSbair is a better kill than dsmash. nair as well i belive, hard to keep those fresh verus meta though.

 

[ddonaldo]

still sticking with 60:40 or 65:35 advantage MK
the fact we cant control the match or kill MK easily (most of the time) gives him the advantage.
to kill we have to approach which isnt good with our bad ranged attacks.
we cant shield grab MK, and MK racks damage better than we do

 

[<π]

no way the match up is more than 60:40 in mks favor.

I'd go with 50:50 or 55:45MK

 

[Roxas1988]

no way the match up is more than 60:40 in mks favor.

I'd go with 50:50 or 55:45MK

I completely agree. Shiek does have a good enough metagame against MK.

 

[<π]

what does meta game mean?

 

[clowsui]

LOL improper usage

metagame is just the collection of strategies and tactics associated with a specific character at a point in time/a period of time