Sheikah Survival Guide: A Sheik Match-up Thread

[saviorslegacy]

I think you might need to read up a little more on ftilt.

I never really read, I was just told by the guy making the thread on the f-tilt.
F-tilt lock is legit until knock back knocks them out of a consecutive hit (unless you failed).

 

[-Mars-]

That is true except in cases such as Mario or Marth where the characer has a move with invincibility frames. I might be wrong on this but iirc that's how it works. You have to have it decayed enough or even fast attacks like MK's dair/uair can hit you out of ftilt.

 

[choknater]

mario's nair has invincibility frames????????

 

[Inferno3044]

perople need to be ftilt edicated I thinks.

this isn't a which character is better thread, it's a match up thread.

Thank you. Just because character is better doesn't mean they have an advantage over lower characters. Even high tier characters like diddy, kirby, and pikachu are even for mario. so thank you for putting saying this. Now on to my opinions.

mario is out camped. espeacially if you use needles as a punisher for full hopped fire balls and wiffed aerials which mario does a lot.

Mario's camping is better. fireballs are much more useful than needles. We don't have to charge them up and we can use it at different angles. Also even if we do get outcamped, we can use these to approach which you cant use needles for.

even we are faster/have more range in the air and on the ground.

Congrats, you said what almost every other character says about Mario. "Oh we have more range. It's our advantage" If that was true, DK would be top tier. Also I think our aerials are better due to very good combos with them. Also Fsmash outranges your attacks (It outranges Marth's fsmash if properly spaced)

have very little issue edge gaurding mario safely. mario can't recover safely from high so he almost always has to go for the edge some how, his options are far from versitile when he does.

We aren't a one trick pony. We have things to use to help us. We have fireballs, FLUDD, cape stalling, and our UpB isn't that bad. Maybe it's a bit predictable, but not that bad.

cape is a joke in this match up.

Don't jump into mario's **** combo's space your attacks and play smart and you'll be fine. this is definitely in sheiks favor.

We aren't gonna use cape against you. It's useless unless we can use it as a surprise to turn you around. But that's more of a mindgame. Also don't think we won't get in. We will get in and do some **** combos like you said.

I don't find mario too too bad... I hear it's even I doubt it. needles make it very hard to be mario, and spare teh deceptive fsmash you have a lot of range and speed on him both in teh air and on the ground. if you are spacing well the match up shouldn't be too bad.

You do not have to approach ever. In this match just about every fire ball should be punished with either needles, or because of your amazing ground speed (I said that right) an aerial. One of the two.

Needles aren't that amazing. They are predictable, take time to charge up, and only have 3 ways of moving (up, down, or straight). As said before, your range won't be too big a problem. We are used to it. You do have speed over us. Do you really think "if we can space we win" is true? WRONG!!! That's a lot of bull.

Who told you that we are completely vulnerable after a fireball? We aren't. Also, a good Mario won't use a fireball on the ground. It's dumb.

Shiek has speed/range and Mario has combo potential/edgeguarding. Power isn't a big difference. I don't see anything saying shiek has an advantage. To me, its 50:50.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Dudes, keep in mind, I play a legit Sheik player very frequently offline. You may or may not know of TonyGuacamole. He does have a single Brawl video up on youtube and a few other Melee vids, but I've played him quite a lot. I think he's a slightly better player than me in Brawl, but for the most part we've gone pretty even in this one matchup. What does matter is that I know this matchup pretty well.

Mario's U-smash is frame 9 by the way on the back hit which has the most range, and most of the time I use it out of shield in this matchup. I find that Sheik's ability to space is moderately limited by her awkward aerial mobility. I don't have much trouble landing this move when I need KOs.

Needle camping is gay, but fireballs are nowhere near useless either. They're more spammable than Needles too.

I should emphasize how easily Mario can land F-smash in general, because really. It's such a great move due to its massive range and leanback.

Also, seriously, Sheik's Up-B is constantly underestimated. You can treat it as a faux spotdodge -> punish option, and the advantage of it is that it's one of her better KO moves. This is one way Tony actually gets KOs in this matchup by reacting to an approach I put too much commitment too, and Up-Bing.

Otherwise the one other way Sheik can attempt to KO is with DACUS, which beware can be rather unsafe on block depending on the spacing.

I don't know what else to say besides emphasizing that Tony and I both consider the matchup even.

 

[Judo777]

Thank you. Just because character is better doesn't mean they have an advantage over lower characters. Even high tier characters like diddy, kirby, and pikachu are even for mario. so thank you for putting saying this. Now on to my opinions.



Mario's camping is better. fireballs are much more useful than needles. We don't have to charge them up and we can use it at different angles. Also even if we do get outcamped, we can use these to approach which you cant use needles for.



Congrats, you said what almost every other character says about Mario. "Oh we have more range. It's our advantage" If that was true, DK would be top tier. Also I think our aerials are better due to very good combos with them. Also Fsmash outranges your attacks (It outranges Marth's fsmash if properly spaced)



We aren't a one trick pony. We have things to use to help us. We have fireballs, FLUDD, cape stalling, and our UpB isn't that bad. Maybe it's a bit predictable, but not that bad.



We aren't gonna use cape against you. It's useless unless we can use it as a surprise to turn you around. But that's more of a mindgame. Also don't think we won't get in. We will get in and do some **** combos like you said.



Needles aren't that amazing. They are predictable, take time to charge up, and only have 3 ways of moving (up, down, or straight). As said before, your range won't be too big a problem. We are used to it. You do have speed over us. Do you really think "if we can space we win" is true? WRONG!!! That's a lot of bull.

Who told you that we are completely vulnerable after a fireball? We aren't. Also, a good Mario won't use a fireball on the ground. It's dumb.

Shiek has speed/range and Mario has combo potential/edgeguarding. Power isn't a big difference. I don't see anything saying shiek has an advantage. To me, its 50:50.

Sheik combos just as well as mario IMO as well as actually having real combos tho not many. Um also we can definitely outcamp mario. Needles may not be better than fireballs completely but for camping there is no question. We can charge them in the air and when u jump to fireball we can trade with u 18 dmg to 5 i think. We can only throw them in two directions we can't throw them up don't know where u got that. If u dont let mario get too high above u he cant upb out of the tilt lock and if he tries and we shield hes eating an Usmash. We are faster and have grab shena*****ns on him and we can gimp him a lil better than he gimps us. We do out range mario in like 90% of his attacks and that does matter when sheik is pretty **** inside.

 

[choknater]

fireballs are better than u think

i think fireballs and needles are of equal value in this matchup

 

[<π]

whats the lag on a fireball? If I remember correctly I punish mario every time he shoots one regardless of where he is as he shoots it. fireballs can be fair bair;ed nair jabed ftilted.... etc. needles can be caped shielded or dodged. this means we can attack through and approach through fire balls. not to mention with our fast and low run you can just run under and punish. you can't spam fire balls on sheik like you can with so much of the cast.

needles are predictable? You can predict punishment all you want, if you shoot a fireball miss an aerial, anything I get free damage. at what 8 frames to come out? and a high movement speed needles are the best projectile in terms of overall speed.

when I talk about spacing I mean not giving you options that allow you to deal damage. How do you deal with ftilt once you are past 40% when it is spaced properly? how about bair and fair? you have not strong answers to these moves as mario. UpB OOS doesn't have the range or speed, your grab range is too small even for fair :/

fireballs are good against zelda's horrible disjointed moveset.

 

[choknater]

mario should only fireball if he is far away

 

[<π]

still though. mario full hops and he is across the stage just run at him I bet he was going to shoot a fire ball. those things have so much lag, he can barely double jump after an aerial fireball.

 

[ddonaldo]

I thought mario SH his fireballs, and his lag isnt that bad considering he can go into nair from a SH fireball

 

[Tristan_win]

Mario vs Sheik is either dead even or in sheik favor or at least that's my thought after fighting Matador so many times in the past.

I'm talking like 55 Sheik to 45 Mario but it might be even closer >_>

edit: By the way if mario up B is giving you problems then just Smash DI it. He will only land one to two hits on you which isn't much damage.

 

[<π]

I thought you can't sh a fire ball.

 

[choknater]

hm yeah i used to think mario's upb's great priority was really good, but yeah with SDI the damage is so insignificant

 

[Matador]

....Why would anyone want to camp in this matchup? It's one of the most legit matchups in the game...

The beauty of SDI on Mario's upB is that you evade the last hit, which is the only one with knockback. The lesser damage is great as well, but the low knockback is what you want to capitalize on.

HOWEVER, Mario's upB invincibility starts on frame 3. That's the same frame that his Nair comes out, and you CAN'T SDI out of that. So be wary of mixups.

Anyways, nothing has really changed since the previous discussion we've had on this matchup. I wouldn't recommend switching to Zelda for KOs here. If you know how stale your Ftilt is, you can easily score that Ftilt -> Usmash, mainly because Ftilt beats fireballs (IIRC, I'd have to check) and Mario is generally behind every fireball he throws.

 

[ddonaldo]

mario is pretty much even with us on-stage. offstage though mario and us may have pretty 1-D recoveries, ours is better in this matchup and we can harass mario offstage more than he can to us as long as we are aware of the cape.
and thankfully for us mario isn't heavy enough to refuse going off the stage.
I'm going with 55:45 or 51:49 sheik if its allowed

 

[choknater]

choknater (4:04:39 PM): u got this : D
saviorslegacy (4:04:50 PM): I got what?

 

[<π]

I disagree, sheik has the advantage on the ground because of both range and speed, in this match up (screw over all) she has the better of the two projectiles. in the air again her speed and range give her the advantage. sure mario can combo us, but so can fox and look at how we rate that match up.
We fortunately can return the favor with high damage combos and unavoidle situations that lead to regrabs or damage. when he is edge gaurding us we have tons of options and generally should make it back if we are close enough to up B. mario doesn't have strong aerial punisher to get us bad for appearing on stage. he on the other hand has a pretty on dimentional recovery, spare a stall that if read can be easily punished normally has two options upB to the edge or upB just past it. we can punish the first by grabing the edge, and the second (ussually a result of you grabing the edge) with bair nair uair or fair. bair ussually being the best bet since it'd send him ack of stage.

The only mario I've lost to yet in tourney was Monk, and thats because zelda is horrible in teh match up. at least my zelda any way. fire balls ****... no not zeldas.

 

[ddonaldo]

i agree with you most part except for the combo bit. combos do mean a lot. We have come to agreement that the fox vs sheik matchup would be pretty even if f-tilt>death didnt exist.

Plus mario can approach and combo with his projectiles, but we cant (under normal circumstances) thanks to our major needle lag.
On-stage I would say our projectiles are as useful as each others.

 

[<π]

mario can't approach behind projectiles in this match up though. needles don't deal 5-4 damage, they deal 3-18. Needles have never been an approach tool they force approaches and punish pretty much any mistake. The two projectiles are used for very different purposes within the match up there is really no need to compare them on that level.

 

[choknater]

rolling around and needling works on wario, it'll work on mario as well! hahahah!

jk mario is faster i would rather just play him like i'm playing a marth. safe aggressive intuitive

until i have trouble with a mario.... i dont know what to say lol. hes not that hard to fight, i just fight him normal without a strategy in mind and i win

 

[ddonaldo]

I know what you mean chok and that prob why I can safely say that sheik has the advantage in this matchup. You simply dont have to adjust your playstyle against marios

 

[Matador]

You generally don't need to change much as a Mario coming into this matchup either; it's what makes this pairing so great.

There's no "watch out for Ftilt, it out-prioritizes everything we have AND deals 21%" or anything like that...it's just a very even matchup...and one of the more enjoyable ones at that.

Monk is amazing, one of the best Marios.

 

[<π]

Monks a beast! I haven't seen him lately though

Still I think "gay" sheik would have a noticeable advantage in the match up.

 

[stealth3654]

So what do we say the match-up ratio is and what stages did we cp/ban?

 

[ddonaldo]

imo CPs would be Frigate Orpheon and maybe LC.
These two places can really hurt mario's recovery and are relatively small so mario can't space us well here.

 

[-Mars-]

50-50. Ban Yoshi's Island.

 

[ddonaldo]

50-50. Ban Yoshi's Island.

I'm not arguing but may I ask why? I'm probably missing something relatively obvious

 

[A1lion835]

The Kirby boards are discussing Sheik! Any help with the discussion would be appreciated.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=236395

 

[choknater]

i made a post a1lion

are u a1 like a1 steak sauce?

 

[ddonaldo]

obvious but must be said, dont eat unnecessary damage. jump out of his u-air and u-tilt juggles. You may need smash DI as well for his u-tilt juggles if he is doing it well

 

[stealth3654]

Alright! Next up is Pokemon Trainer.

Discuss!!

 

[Judo777]

ivysaur gets ***** offstage.......

 

[choknater]

i honestly think squirtle has the advantage, he is so freaking fast

 

[<π]

squirts is freakin rough... good air maneuverability makes it hard to accurately react to what he is doing. He beats you in the air and comes dame close on the ground with that one frame jab of his... kill grabs. man that turtle is a monster.

Charizard can rocksmash Out of Ftilt lock at lower percents. that crap is gay. (Your ftilt hits his rock and breaks it which hits you but cancels the animation for charizard, then he can follow up with a grab or even gayer another rock smash.

Ivy isn't as easy to **** ofstage as you'd think huge disjointed hitboxes and a projectile :/ it can be hard. you can out camp IVy if you couldn't It'd be difficult. Ivy can BS out of ftilt ar lower percents

 

[Tristan_win]

To be honest until you learn the match up you might as well use Zelda since she does so good against all three. That's what I did for a while until I figure out 2 of the match ups.

squirtle, chain camp, needle camp, grab release chain grabs, grab release usmash, and pretend he's kirby but with only one air jump. I enjoy fighting Squirtles because of how good he is as a character IF you could use just one of the PT pokamon I would 2nd squirtle. I like him that much.

Charizard, he's heavy but his recovery isn't too grand so tilt combos, and instead of ftilt into usmash go for fair for the gimps. Vanish gimp FTW when he tries to glide or become rock smash happy.

Ivy, he's not threatening enough for me to care about him thus he gives me the most trouble of the three now because I just do whatever. Vanish does extra knock back and damage though so that's fun to use on him.

edit: If you ever see him do his bullet seed attack (his only move to note) then just smash di toward him just as you get hit into it. It's like DI Zelda fsmash but less scary.

 

[Bomber7]

i honestly think squirtle has the advantage, he is so freaking fast

Stated for truth.

In my experience I have found that Charizard does decent against sheik. Though I'd give it like a 55-45 advantage. Charizard takes some pain but sheik does have to approach and rock smash and his grabbing can cause some devastation.

 

[saviorslegacy]

I haven't had the pleasure of fighting a good PT yet.
I do believe that he is an awesome character and should be a lot higher on the tier list.

Just looking at statistics and a gut feeling though this is what I say:


He is light, good air movement, really fact moves and kills at mid high percents. His u-tilt combo's into itself for a tilt lock and since we are a FF a bet that we get hurt from that.

I guess the importance of this match up is spacing with Bair. Unless I am wrong it out range's him.
Also, FSmash him if he is in the air. BW to one side out of his attack and FSmash directly behind you. Since he is landing with an attack he can punish with a shield.
You can also try and use Vanish when he close's in. Just don't get predictable on where you are going to reappear. Also try and cancel it.
Needle's are good for messing up his shell shifting.

Chain at the ledge limits what he can do as well.



Ivy has few options for getting back onto the stage. He has a slow fair, Razor Leaf for planking, Nair and maybe Bullet Seed (IDK).
My focus would be knocking him off of the stage and not letting him back at lowish percents. When you can knock him away more you should follow up with this:
Needle Glide> Needle Cancel> Chain hog
That is an INCREDIBLY fast way of chain hogging. If you chain hog he will be lucky to knock yo off.



A fast faller that is heavy. Also, a scary dragon. O-o
Try and chain him at the ledge. Also, f-tilt> DSmash wouldn't be a bad idea.
I also believe that a non decayed Swan Combo works on him (like DK).

Needle's would help too. That and out spacing with Bair.





Just what I think would be effective. Correct me if I'm wrong since these were just stabs in the dark at how to fight them.

 

[stealth3654]

I believe Charzard's up B has either super armor or invinsibility frames so you can not chain guard him, but it does not sweet spot the ledge.

 

[-Mars-]

Nobody Boost Walks, nobody uses the Swan combo, and nobody needle glides. We shouldn't be mentioning these types of things in matchup threads until they are actually seen prominently in Sheiks metagame which they are obviously not right now lol.