Sheikah Survival Guide: A Sheik Match-up Thread

[Uffe]

It does, but that's not the only good stage for him. Places like Smashville also work. I'm not sure what stages are good and bad for Sheik. :/ For Ness, his worst stages are Yoshi's Island and Lylat Cruise. If Skyworld was a legal or counterpick, I'd throw that in as well. Anyway, Ness isn't bad on a lot of stages, but there might be some stages Sheik can use against him for various purposes. For example, if Distant Planet was legal [I'm not sure if it is in other areas or not] then you could just try and grab release him off the side of the stage. Unless that grab release only works for other attacks and not grabs like Yoshi's. But if it does work like Yoshi's, you could counterpick a Ness counterpick, Delfino Plaza.

 

[saviorslegacy]

It does, but that's not the only good stage for him. Places like Smashville also work. I'm not sure what stages are good and bad for Sheik. :/ For Ness, his worst stages are Yoshi's Island and Lylat Cruise. If Skyworld was a legal or counterpick, I'd throw that in as well. Anyway, Ness isn't bad on a lot of stages, but there might be some stages Sheik can use against him for various purposes. For example, if Distant Planet was legal [I'm not sure if it is in other areas or not] then you could just try and grab release him off the side of the stage. Unless that grab release only works for other attacks and not grabs like Yoshi's. But if it does work like Yoshi's, you could counterpick a Ness counterpick, Delfino Plaza.

We can do the grab release's at YI so I guess that works.

Meh, Delfino might mess up our grab release's.

 

[ddonaldo]

is needle spam effective against fairing ness if we are on flat stage?
anyways I do believe fd is our best neutral stage against ness since he doesnt have any platforms to retreat back to after f-airing.
I would go 60:40, ness is light enough to get KOed quite easily by sheik and his recovery can be dealt with quite easily if he is below or parallel to the stage. our fair and d-smash is good at sending ness at comfortable positions and needles can really deal with ness's recovery if he has to pk thunder.

Ness can quite easily build damage against us, but sheiks speed is at our advantage. not sure if grab release is confirmed yet though.
Ness can quite easily KO us though, at lower % than we can as well, which makes me consider 55:45

 

[Uffe]

is needle spam effective against fairing ness if we are on flat stage?
anyways I do believe fd is our best neutral stage against ness since he doesnt have any platforms to retreat back to after f-airing.
I would go 60:40, ness is light enough to get KOed quite easily by sheik and his recovery can be dealt with quite easily if he is below or parallel to the stage. our fair and d-smash is good at sending ness at comfortable positions and needles can really deal with ness's recovery if he has to pk thunder.

Ness can quite easily build damage against us, but sheiks speed is at our advantage. not sure if grab release is confirmed yet though.
Ness can quite easily KO us though, at lower % than we can as well, which makes me consider 55:45

I can't remember if fair can block out the Needle Storm. I know it can do that for R.O.B.'s Gyro, but that's an item that can be grabbed. And Ness isn't light, he's mid weight. He can survive at least 150% with DI and momentum canceling. If you want some good matches in high level play, look up Cazcom vs Gimpyfish. I know it's rather old, but both players knew what they were doing.

Saviorslegacy, you're probably better off using Yoshi's Island as a CP. But if you have other stages you can use against Ness, don't hesitate to do so. Again, Ness doesn't really have bad stages, but take a match with Ness vs Marth and have them on Battlefield, Marth is going to do really good on that stage even though that's not exactly one of Ness' worst stages. As for Delfino, I was talking about when there are walk offs. But I get what you're saying since it moves around quite a lot.

 

[choknater]

i just pick small stages like BF or yoshi's so that i can keep pressure on ness lol

i try not to let him space by being a step ahead and attacking a lot

 

[ddonaldo]

I can't remember if fair can block out the Needle Storm. I know it can do that for R.O.B.'s Gyro, but that's an item that can be grabbed. And Ness isn't light, he's mid weight. He can survive at least 150% with DI and momentum canceling. If you want some good matches in high level play, look up Cazcom vs Gimpyfish. I know it's rather old, but both players knew what they were doing.

Saviorslegacy, you're probably better off using Yoshi's Island as a CP. But if you have other stages you can use against Ness, don't hesitate to do so. Again, Ness doesn't really have bad stages, but take a match with Ness vs Marth and have them on Battlefield, Marth is going to do really good on that stage even though that's not exactly one of Ness' worst stages. As for Delfino, I was talking about when there are walk offs. But I get what you're saying since it moves around quite a lot.

sorry I phrased that horribly. what I meant to say is that ness is light enough to actually get sent offstage far enough by sheik.

ive seen those vids before, didnt mind watching them again actually but it seems that ness' heavy aerial game gives valuable chances for us to quickly get underneath with DACUS. I saw quite alot of chances for gimpy to do this but I remember gimpy not being able to get the controls down for a DACUS

 

[Uffe]

sorry I phrased that horribly. what I meant to say is that ness is light enough to actually get sent offstage far enough by sheik.

ive seen those vids before, didnt mind watching them again actually but it seems that ness' heavy aerial game gives valuable chances for us to quickly get underneath with DACUS. I saw quite alot of chances for gimpy to do this but I remember gimpy not being able to get the controls down for a DACUS

Um, if he's mid weight, chances are he's not going to be sent far enough. And SH > fair / > DACUS. Chances are the attacks will either be out-prioritized or both will get hit. As for the matches between Cazcom and Gimpyfish, I brought it up because one, both are or were good at Brawl and two, they show that Ness isn't as easy as some of you guys may think. Just like gimping Ness with your Needles, locking him to death, etc. I'm not saying Sheik can't do any of that, but it's not that likely.

 

[<π]

Needles are ****... but~ if ness is in your zone like he should be you can't really use them. fair is an amazing spacing tool for ness, multi hit long hit box with low/no landing lag. which means is he is hitting your sheild or forcing you to move or dodge you can't punish him for it like you can with so many other characters spacing tools as sheik.

Doing a side by side comparison of characters strengths don't mean anything for the match up. on paper snake is way better than sheik, more range, more damage, etc. That isn't the match up though. Like wise ness' "poor recovery" can be... whats the word I'm looking for... Mmm... It can be not as large of an issue with him if he uses good DI and saves his jumps. Even if he has to use it, when done correctly it is far from a free kill. good distance and crazy knock back and priority make it something you need to avoid. it's start up time is proablly less than zelda's horrible upB.

I don't know I can't put a number on it but I think sheik, despite my pro ness..ness, should still have a significant advantage. ness' approach tools are all aerial basses and sheik punishes air games hard with needles, espeacially short hopped aerials. from the front ness has fair, but from behind and below we should be winning because of our range and speed. Of course you should watch for trading with his bair.

Off stage we do have a good amount of safe gimp options since his recovery is so one dimensional. You don't have to approach if you did this would be a tough match.

 

[-Mars-]

Vids of players from back in 2008 really shouldn't be brought up as it doesn't really show both characters current metagames.......especially vids of Gimpy who just liked to mess around<_<

 

[ddonaldo]

the way I look at it, please correct me if you disagree
+sheik's close range ground game trumps ness's
+sheik's long range game is better than ness's (although none are particularly great for forcing approaches, needles are better than PK thunder and outrange PK fire.
+sheik can seriously harass ness offstage if he is not too high

-ness's aerial game is better than sheik's
-ness's KOing potential is better than sheik's
-ness can "kinda" harass sheik offstage

This essentially means that sheik can easily get ness to 40% at the start of the battle but will then be forced to resort to needle camping and waiting for openings while ness pressures sheik with his air control. this means that we will arrive at high damage at around the same time.
we can grab release into f-air to send ness at an awkward angle offstage for our KOs whereas ness can fsmash, uair or b-throw us.

The thing is while it sounds like ness has more KO options we have the easier KO option (the second ness has to PK thunder while level or below the stage, a good sheik can finish ness). ness's grab range isnt brilliant and we are not going to get hit by that f-smash most of the time nor are we going to let ourselves be above ness for the u-air. (we are fast fallers and quick on the ground)

So this pretty much amounts to us getting KOed at around the same time since we are bound to get grabbed eventually though.
so im sticking with either 60:40 or leaning towards 55:45. Either way I do believe he have the advantage though

 

[saviorslegacy]

Um, if he's mid weight, chances are he's not going to be sent far enough. And SH > fair / > DACUS. Chances are the attacks will either be out-prioritized or both will get hit. As for the matches between Cazcom and Gimpyfish, I brought it up because one, both are or were good at Brawl and two, they show that Ness isn't as easy as some of you guys may think. Just like gimping Ness with your Needles, locking him to death, etc. I'm not saying Sheik can't do any of that, but it's not that likely.

Have fun out prioritizing USmash.

CG's are hopeless for you guys, don't deny it in a match up discussion. This guy learned that.

My big beef with chaingrabs isn't about maining a character that gets infinited (at a time, Ness was my main, until I learned it was hopeless) or because I lose due to them, as Diddy is extremely difficult to land grabs on. No, in fact I encourage people to use chaingrabs to the best of their knowledge when playing against me, as it gives me the competitive edge when confronted with that obstacle in actual tournament play.

Now I tire of this 2+ page bicker.
Can we just put a number to it and call it a day?

 

[choknater]

but savior, sheik's cg's on ness are not guaranteed

i still say 55:45 sheik over ness, and its not a huge advantage.

like i said, u have to REALLY understand ness' strengths to understand

IMO i don't think i will lose to a ness simply cuz i understand his game, and i would only lose if the ness is really good at ness v sheik. just matchup experience, cuz sheik's advantage is only slight. u might not realize how early sheik can die against ness to random bairs, easy edgeguards (like edge hog... wait for vanish.... bthrow), random uairs, spikes, and throws in general.

dont get hit by pk fire :D

 

[Uffe]

Needles are ****... but~ if ness is in your zone like he should be you can't really use them. fair is an amazing spacing tool for ness, multi hit long hit box with low/no landing lag. which means is he is hitting your sheild or forcing you to move or dodge you can't punish him for it like you can with so many other characters spacing tools as sheik.

Doing a side by side comparison of characters strengths don't mean anything for the match up. on paper snake is way better than sheik, more range, more damage, etc. That isn't the match up though. Like wise ness' "poor recovery" can be... whats the word I'm looking for... Mmm... It can be not as large of an issue with him if he uses good DI and saves his jumps. Even if he has to use it, when done correctly it is far from a free kill. good distance and crazy knock back and priority make it something you need to avoid. it's start up time is proablly less than zelda's horrible upB.

I don't know I can't put a number on it but I think sheik, despite my pro ness..ness, should still have a significant advantage. ness' approach tools are all aerial basses and sheik punishes air games hard with needles, espeacially short hopped aerials. from the front ness has fair, but from behind and below we should be winning because of our range and speed. Of course you should watch for trading with his bair.

Off stage we do have a good amount of safe gimp options since his recovery is so one dimensional. You don't have to approach if you did this would be a tough match.

Bravo! O:

Vids of players from back in 2008 really shouldn't be brought up as it doesn't really show both characters current metagames.......especially vids of Gimpy who just liked to mess around<_<

You're right. But it still showed Gimpyfish try and gimp Cazcom's Ness, no pun intended, with Needles at some point. It also showed him using his f-tilt lock as well as a few other things that most Sheik's would do. It's hard to find matches of two good players playing in a tournament that are recent. Those weren't friendlies. There might've been some, but not all of them.

Have fun out prioritizing USmash.

CG's are hopeless for you guys, don't deny it in a match up discussion. This guy learned that.

I know CGing is part of the match up, but it doesn't make the match up alone, as I said before. Because if you're unable to grab your opponent, then what's the match up then? That's like Popo without Nana. Now that he can't CG, what other options does he have? The match up suddenly changes? Anyway, I'm still going with 55:45, Sheik.

 

[Suspect]

super secret ninja vanish

 

[saviorslegacy]

I know CGing is part of the match up, but it doesn't make the match up alone, as I said before. Because if you're unable to grab your opponent, then what's the match up then? That's like Popo without Nana. Now that he can't CG, what other options does he have? The match up suddenly changes? Anyway, I'm still going with 55:45, Sheik.

To stop the IC's you just need a well placed projectile.
They have few approach options.

Sheik has MANY grab set ups.

 

[My Cat Owns]

I say 55:45 sheik as well. I don't know much about Ness, but I've read the last 3 pages and it's deff not 60:40 but I don't think it's even at all.

 

[Uffe]

To stop the IC's you just need a well placed projectile.
They have few approach options.

Sheik has MANY grab set ups.

You don't even need projectile to beat the IC's. I brought the IC's up because as I said before, grab releases and/or chain grabs do not determine the match up alone. To top it off, Marth has better grab range than the IC's and against Ness the match up isn't 100:0, Marth just because of his death grab. There's more to it than just grabbing. So again, if you can't grab your opponent, then you'll have to think of a different way to win.

 

[choknater]

i think ness in particular is REALLY good at not getting grabbed, similar to wario how he can rely so well on his aerials

 

[ddonaldo]

so it seems we have come to an agreement of 55:45
if both know the matchup ness will camp in the air as long as possible until sheik has enough damage
and sheik will get ness to his 40% quickly and then wait for openings and not jump into his aerial barrage

sheik's needles really help

 

[choknater]

ness doesnt necessarily camp in the air
more like tries to autocancel stuff and space u/hit u with it

sheik might not be able to run in and grab, but fair -> ftilt -> grab, ftilt -> grab, and double jab -> are definitely a saving grace.

fair -> ftilt -> grab -> stuff, people! lots of damage vs ness

the grab alone might be hard to nail, but fairs are not... u should know how to be able to land fairs on any char, ness is no different. just wait till his own fair is not in the way

 

[stealth3654]

Alright then. Next up is Mario.

Discuss!

 

[kingcobra9]

if he does a cape as you vanish does it do anything

 

[<π]

yep, it reverses your left right input.

I don't find mario too too bad... I hear it's even I doubt it. needles make it very hard to be mario, and spare teh deceptive fsmash you have a lot of range and speed on him both in teh air and on the ground. if you are spacing well the match up shouldn't be too bad.

You do not have to approach ever. In this match just about every fire ball should be punished with either needles, or because of your amazing ground speed (I said that right) an aerial. One of the two.

Last word on Ness:
To counter ness's sh fairs/ AC fair you can needle for a punish everytime. the damage adds up.

 

[ddonaldo]

I believe we have the advantage in this matchup. but due to our fast falling nature a good mario can juggle us pretty well with utilts and uairs.
and like <3 mentioned, just watch out for that f-smash, with stutter step, its range is larger than you think which can throw you off quite a bit since mario is famous for his horrid range

 

[stealth3654]

We can grab release > DACUS on Mario. Watch out for his low % combos and don't underestimate his gimp game. I believe we have the advantage since Mario can't really camp Sheik with fireballs and needles only make it worse for him. I say take him to FD for the grab release kill or Frigate for the part of the stage that has no ledges because Mario's recovery is kinda bad.

 

[ddonaldo]

speaking of stages, mario dislikes lylat cruise for recovering. and iirc, mario isnt tall enough to poke through ledges without jumping whereas we can

EDIT: sorry its only the middle one mario cant poke through making it a nice ledge to camp on

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

I'll still say the matchup is 50/50, not in Mario or Sheik's favor. Sheik got the sexy DAC, good side-A tilts. Mario and Sheik is even on ground but Mario is better than Sheik in air. Both of dem share strength, of course. Sheik's recovery is better than Mario's. Mario and Sheik cannot outcamp each other due to projectiles. If you Sheik players use needles, we'll spam cape to reflect it back. Sheik can counterpick a stage for Mario, it depends what stage that Mario sucks on and put it into Sheik's favor. But Mario does very well on platforms like Brinstar and Norfair. Mario and Sheik can edgeguarding each other, Mario got the cape and FLUDD to edgeguard Sheik and Sheik got the side B to hang on to edgeguard Mario and have invisibility frames to make him not to grab the ledge. But yeah, the matchup is 50/50 which is interesting both of them in my opinion.

 

[ddonaldo]

but mario's cape cant send needles back at sheik since they dont travel that far when reflected and most of sheik's aerial have more priority and range than marios.

 

[Cyn]

how about sheik and diddy?

 

[saviorslegacy]

I'll still say the matchup is 50/50, not in Mario or Sheik's favor. Sheik got the sexy DAC, good side-A tilts. Mario and Sheik is even on ground but Mario is better than Sheik in air. Both of dem share strength, of course. Sheik's recovery is better than Mario's. Mario and Sheik cannot outcamp each other due to projectiles. If you Sheik players use needles, we'll spam cape to reflect it back. Sheik can counterpick a stage for Mario, it depends what stage that Mario sucks on and put it into Sheik's favor. But Mario does very well on platforms like Brinstar and Norfair. Mario and Sheik can edgeguarding each other, Mario got the cape and FLUDD to edgeguard Sheik and Sheik got the side B to hang on to edgeguard Mario and have invisibility frames to make him not to grab the ledge. But yeah, the matchup is 50/50 which is interesting both of them in my opinion.

I might agree with 50 50. Both characters have a lot going for them but almost nothing of what they have going for them destroys either one of them.
It is like a match of a bunch of pro's and no con's.

but mario's cape cant send needles back at sheik since they dont travel that far when reflected and most of sheik's aerial have more priority and range than marios.

What he said is true. We can effectively spam Needle's on reflecting character since they disappear after thrown so far (think half of FD). Besides, we usually use them as a combo tool/gimp tool/anti camp tool anyways. Needle's have to much cool down to be spammed correctly.

 

[My Cat Owns]

Can't mario upb out of our ftilt lock early too?

 

[A2ZOMG]

This matchup is ridiculously even.

Both combo each other a lot, and kinda don't KO each other very easily, and can kinda get ***** offstage, and they like camping each other.

Wow, lots of similarities.

Now anyhow to be serious, Sheik's F-tilt juggles are breakable by N-air if I recall. Mario's U-tilt juggles are harder to start up but harder to break out of once they start, and do slightly less damage. Outside of that, Sheik has better damage dealing capabilities in general and her F-air can make it tough for Mario to recover at moderately high percents. Oh and D-smash is gay.

As I said, getting the KO easily is not something that happens often, but Mario does this slightly better since his KO moves F-smash and U-smash are more practical in application. Sheik can be very easy for Mario to U-smash out of shield due to her relatively straightforward aerial mobility. F-smash has a disjoint and massive range/leanback, so never rapid Jab Mario k?

By the way, don't get predictable on recovery especially from below. I like N-airing Sheik's recovery a lot, and when it hits, I almost always get to edgehog.

I've played this matchup quite a lot. It's one of the more fun matchups in this game imo.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Can't mario upb out of our ftilt lock early too?

*To both of you*
Sheiks f-tilt lock is legit. You an get out of it when you go past her head, but that's it. If someone performs the f-tilt lock correctly then the only way for the person to get out is to take more knock back (ie Fox lol).

This matchup is ridiculously even.

Both combo each other a lot, and kinda don't KO each other very easily, and can kinda get ***** offstage, and they like camping each other.

Wow, lots of similarities.

Now anyhow to be serious, Sheik's F-tilt juggles are breakable by N-air if I recall. Mario's U-tilt juggles are harder to start up but harder to break out of once they start, and do slightly less damage. Outside of that, Sheik has better damage dealing capabilities in general and her F-air can make it tough for Mario to recover at moderately high percents. Oh and D-smash is gay.

As I said, getting the KO easily is not something that happens often, but Mario does this slightly better since his KO moves F-smash and U-smash are more practical in application. Sheik can be very easy for Mario to U-smash out of shield due to her relatively straightforward aerial mobility. F-smash has a disjoint and massive range/leanback, so never rapid Jab Mario k?

By the way, don't get predictable on recovery especially from below. I like N-airing Sheik's recovery a lot, and when it hits, I almost always get to edgehog.

I've played this matchup quite a lot. It's one of the more fun matchups in this game imo.

Meh, Fair should be used to combo. Nair should be used on recovering people.

The only legit strength that I could think of was our stage guard (if you want to call it that).
If a Sheik plays correctly once you get to the ledge, you will never see the stage again.
She is fast enough to punish anything you do with Bair/Fair, and Needle's/Chain takes care of planking (planking against the chain is suicide).

Beware of Vanish. It gets invincibility frames and if you try and close in on it you will defiantly get punished.

 

[<π]

perople need to be ftilt edicated I thinks.

this isn't a which character is better thread, it's a match up thread. mario is out camped. espeacially if you use needles as a punisher for full hopped fire balls and wiffed aerials which mario does a lot. we are faster/have more range in the air and on the ground. and have very little issue edge gaurding mario safely. mario can't recover safely from high so he almost always has to go for the edge some how, his options are far from versitile when he does.

cape is a joke in this match up.

Don't jump into mario's **** combo's space your attacks and play smart and you'll be fine. this is definitely in sheiks favor.

 

[choknater]

i would use zelda for KO's in this matchup

 

[My Cat Owns]

O.O sorry; new to character. Don't butcher me

 

[-Mars-]

Mario can upb out of the ftilt lock unless you have the decay right due to the invincibility frames on the move. I play the Mario matchup like the marth matchup.......two ftilts and then i shield. I really don't think Mario is killing earlier unless you run into a silly fsmash or something. I don't know what frame Mario's usmash hits on but I don't see how it punishes any of Sheiks pokes or faster moves.

 

[<π]

I do two ftilts and a grab on marth, lol or one and a grab now-a-days same with snake unless they don't know how to interrupt.

ftilt isn't a true combo on most chars till like mid thritys and thats fresh, after the point where we they have 5-6 frames advantage we can ftilt all we want without being punished. marth or mario can get out just about anyone can with a sheild. :/

THAT is why ftilt is never on top of my favored move lists it is a great move but at low percents (0-40) and higher percents (80+) it doesn't serve that pur[pose as a combo too anymore.
It's damage out put espeacially when comboed into itself is silly. 6 or 7 ftilts yeild less than 20 damage I think and you don't get any where near that on most characters you know?

Needles always serve their purpose; a high damage safe punisher, shield chiped.
Bair is always useful regardless of percent; low percents you can combo with it, high percent it becomes a kill move. it is always a great spacing tool.
jab; an amazing low frame long ranged punisher at low percents you get grabs and can use it to bait errors; high percents you can use it to combo into kills.

ftilt doesn't have that versitility at all percents.

 

[saviorslegacy]

O.O sorry; new to character. Don't butcher me

I wasn't butchering you......

Mario can upb out of the ftilt lock unless you have the decay right due to the invincibility frames on the move. I play the Mario matchup like the marth matchup.......two ftilts and then i shield. I really don't think Mario is killing earlier unless you run into a silly fsmash or something. I don't know what frame Mario's usmash hits on but I don't see how it punishes any of Sheiks pokes or faster moves.

*buzzer sound*
*puts on Tristan_Win hat*
The decay of the f-tilt only prolongs the total time that they spend in the f-tilt lock.

 

[-Mars-]

I think you might need to read up a little more on ftilt.