Sheikah Survival Guide: A Sheik Match-up Thread

[saviorslegacy]

Nobody Boost Walks, nobody uses the Swan combo, and nobody needle glides. We shouldn't be mentioning these types of things in matchup threads until they are actually seen prominently in Sheiks metagame which they are obviously not right now lol.

I use all of those (well.. kinda the BW).
Minus BW Tristan and <3 use them and I know Tristan is working on BW.

There tech's too. If effective why not use them?

 

[choknater]

im only scared of squirtle lol

his jab reaches way farther AND comes out faster than ours

talk about speed, people

his frame data is like, just as good as sheik's, except with better movement and more range

at least we have needles and he's easy to edge guard (if he's coming from low... which is like never lol)

 

[ddonaldo]

swan combo = ftilting > nair/fair > ftilt right?
if so then I agree, charizard is very prone to ftilt combos

 

[saviorslegacy]

swan combo = ftilting > nair/fair > ftilt right?
if so then I agree, charizard is very prone to ftilt combos

Actuallyit is just Fair but you got it right.
f-tilt> Fair> f-tilt> fair> ect.
The idea is to end with USmash. Though when I do it I usually end with DSmash.

 

[stealth3654]

Does no one have anything else to say?

I believe that the match-up ratios are 50/50 for squirtle, 60/40 Sheik for Ivy, and 55/45 Sheik for Charzard.

The stage I would CP is Frigate since you can't grab one of the ledges on that stage. I would ban..... Pokemon Stadium? XD

 

[ddonaldo]

I've never ever played a good or even decent PT, so I dont have anything to add unfortunately since all I have is theory and not experience =[

 

[codeman0624]

I've faced a few decent Pokemon Trainers. I don't have any real suggestions on how to counter them, but I do know a few things to watch out for.

Squirtle - As was mentioned, u-tilt at early percents racks up a lot of damage, especially when they end it with his u-smash. When you're at higher percentages, avoid a grab at all costs, his throws have a lot of knock back and can kill pretty easily. His shell-shifting can be tricky...if he's running in the opposite direction, don't be fooled, he can quickly shift around into a grab or u-smash or something else painful.

Ivy - A good one will abuse his b-air. It has a huge range and decent priority, so it's good for approaches or retreats. The only way I've found around this is to needle camp them until they stop spamming the move. Also, try not to get too predictable with aerial approaches, since getting caught in the bullet seed hurts.

Charizard - If you get knocked off the stage, make sure you recover low. His f-air will gimp us easily if he can land it, and his multiple jumps make it so he can get back to the stage safely, or even grab the edge to edge-guard us. Also, I tend to be punished hard by rock-smash because of my predictable approaches. But if you can get around that, he is quite heavy, so f-tilt combos work really well.

Not sure if that helps any or if it's just stating the obvious, but that's been the gist of my PT experience so far.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Now this I can agree with a little more.

A few match ups like MK I think we have the advantage but over all I like this list.

 

[ddonaldo]

I would also agree with MK except that MK seems to love gimping our recovery. his dsmash sends us at an awkward angle which MK can prey on.
On paper though it does seem like we should have the advantage, tilt to 30ish>hit and run with attacks needles till 80ish> grab>DACUS.
However grabbing MK and the hit and run section is a different story

Also where is that list from since us having an advantage against olimar stuck out like a sore thumb

 

[Snakeee]

I would also agree with MK except that MK seems to love gimping our recovery. his dsmash sends us at an awkward angle which MK can prey on.
On paper though it does seem like we should have the advantage, tilt to 30ish>hit and run with attacks needles till 80ish> grab>DACUS.
However grabbing MK and the hit and run section is a different story

Also where is that list from since us having an advantage against olimar stuck out like a sore thumb

I actually have an easier time recovering vs Meta with Sheik than ZSS now. If you react quickly and correctly you'll almost never get gimped but often still take some kind of hit which isn't the end of the world. I definitely would not go as far to say it's Sheik's favor. 60/40 sounds good to me, but it could be 55/45.

I like the list, the only things I really don't agree on are Lucario (the CG is seeming less and less legit), and DDD. DDD I think is evenish or an advantage if youre also using Zelda. Zelda beats DDD on her own though I believe so I'd just stick with her for that one....well I'd use ZSS over her but just saying. I also think Sheik has a good adv against Mario.

 

[East]

I'm pretty sure that list is ooooooold.

 

[saviorslegacy]

I would also agree with MK except that MK seems to love gimping our recovery. his dsmash sends us at an awkward angle which MK can prey on.
On paper though it does seem like we should have the advantage, tilt to 30ish>hit and run with attacks needles till 80ish> grab>DACUS.
However grabbing MK and the hit and run section is a different story

Also where is that list from since us having an advantage against olimar stuck out like a sore thumb

We have it on paper yes.

I wont lie MK is a *****. We have to space him with Bair perfectly and play smart other wise we are gonna get *****. So space, take advantage of MK's weakness's and beat M2K.

It is from Germany/Austria/Romania/across the Atlantic.

I actually have an easier time recovering vs Meta with Sheik than ZSS now. If you react quickly and correctly you'll almost never get gimped but often still take some kind of hit which isn't the end of the world. I definitely would not go as far to say it's Sheik's favor. 60/40 sounds good to me, but it could be 55/45.

I like the list, the only things I really don't agree on are Lucario (the CG is seeming less and less legit), and DDD. DDD I think is evenish or an advantage if youre also using Zelda. Zelda beats DDD on her own though I believe so I'd just stick with her for that one....well I'd use ZSS over her but just saying. I also think Sheik has a good adv against Mario.

We just have to play like Link players do. If you watch their vids the first thing they do is SDI UP so they can recover.

But yeah, you can usually predict if the MK will edge hog or gimp.
Its just when he goes to gimp but decides to hog that is annoying. The plus side is if he shuttle loops trying to edge hog and you beat him with the chain he is screwed.
So I guess I would call it a toss up, Better SDI up and Dair to the ledge.

Speaking of Dair to the ledge. I was fighting a EU Sheik online today (he was pretty good) and he stole that during the middle of the match.
If EU Sheiks/Armada starts using that THEN will you guys believe me that it is useful?

I'm pretty sure that list is ooooooold.

Not really....
*April 09


:EDIT:
I am currently trying to spy on every country that plays Brawl to steal anything/talk to other Sheiks. Some guy is gonna try and hook me and Armada up. I am also gonna get into contact with a guy named Biggad.

Luckily those EU people speak English. It is a ***** to navigate the Japanese Smash site!

BTW.... did you know that in EU Sheik is about to move onto high tier just by shier tourney results? I am told that Sheik's are growing over there and you see a pro Sheik at almost every tourney. Here: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=229417

Oh, the last thing that I am trying to do is spread information about Sheik.
Apparently not everyone knows what we know and we don't know all of what they know.

 

[Tien2500]

On the subject of PT.

Squirtle- I'd say Squirtle has the advantage over Sheik. Squirtle has the advantage over her in the air for sure. Bair has very good priority and will be useful against Squirtle but be careful because it can be punished if baited. Other than that I believe Squirtle is a tiny bit faster in most of his aerials and can take advantage of the blindspot underneath Sheik.

On the ground Squirtle has his jab which is a problem. You can DI and PS the last hit but its not as easy as blocking some other jabs. Ftilt lock can be escaped easily and his Utilt can combo into itself and then into Uair (not really Usmash though).

Both characters will probably be looking to grabs to KO. Sheik can grab release-Usmash I believe and Squirtle will just Dthrow. Sheik can KO at lower %s but Squirtle will probably have a somewhat easier time grabbing. If its fresh Squirt's fair is also very powerful. His Usmash KOs too but thats harder to land.

Both of you can gimp each other about as easily as the other.

Ivy- Bair is great and will help shut down an agressive Sheik. You have a better projectile. Bullet seed will rack up a lot of damage so make sure you DI out of the initial hit. It can also break up an ftilt lock if you screw up the timing.

Ivy's recovery is bad but it isn't a free stock or anything. Good Ivy's will B reverse so they can use their bair to fight off edgeguarding. An aggressive Ivy can also gimp you. Bair can take you out of recovery range, and dair and nair can both spike.

On the ground he has better range but you have better speed.

Ivy has a good array of KO moves but none of them are that easy to hit. Fair, Uair, Vine whip, Fsmash, Usmash and at higher %s Dash attack and Bthrow. Dtilt will set up for a switch to Zard.

Zard vs Sheik is an interesting battle. You can both take off big chunks of life quickly. Sheik can have trouble breaking out of flamethrower and Rock Smash can do 45% or so in one hit. Sheik can do mean things to Zard with Ftilt.

Zard has super armor on Up B so you'll have to be a little bit tricky to edgeguard him. His fair or Dair will gimp you. It you mess up your recovery and he gets you off the ledge with flamethrower you'll wind up eating about 40% damage before you get back on the stage.

His grab range is great so be very careful when approaching with aerials. He has decent grab release options so don't get predictable. For instance if I notice that you spotdodge most of the time I'll Fsmash which will hit you right at the end of the dodge.

Your air game is much better. If you get Zard in the air don't let him get back to the ground. Charizard's airspeed is poor and while his aerials aren't horrible Sheik's are better.

Zard can KO very well. Dtilt is his best KO move. Its quick, ranged, and poweful. Usmash is also incredibly fast for how strong it is. Rocksmash is also a great KO move. Ftilt can KO but is made mostly obsolete by Dtilt. Utilt can KO if Usmash is diminished.

Sheik can rack up damage really quickly but in a few spacing mistakes Charizard can also hurt her badly. This would be solidly in Sheik's favor but the power/weight difference makes it very close to even.

I'd say 55:45-60:40 in Squirtle's favor.
40:60 in Sheik's favor against Ivy.
50:50 against Zard although that can easily be 55:45 in either direction.

Overall on a neutral stage its about 50:50. You should both have about 55:45 on your CPs. Trainer mains like Smashville, Lylat, and RC since they let trainer switch without lag using the moving platforms. Brinstar is also generally a good Trainer stage. I would imagine Sheik would do well on FD or Battlefield. I'm not sure what cp stages are really good for Sheik.

I'm a bit tired so some of that may be hard to understand but I hope the info helps.

 

[<π]

you are invincicble during up B you should be getting gimped by meta unless you are already dead. sheik has too many option for meta to cover them all ussually.

 

[ddonaldo]

you are invincicble during up B you should be getting gimped by meta unless you are already dead. sheik has too many option for meta to cover them all ussually.

thats what annoys me though, I simply dont survive as long as I want to against MK since he puts me in a situation where I have to vanish earlier than I wanted.

P.S. I disagree with peach, I think we are 50:50, a very legit matchup imo

 

[saviorslegacy]

thats what annoys me though, I simply dont survive as long as I want to against MK since he puts me in a situation where I have to vanish earlier than I wanted.

P.S. I disagree with peach, I think we are 50:50, a very legit matchup imo

Chain... if he is out away from the stage and you have the option of the chain you need to use it.

In many ways I think the Chain is a very legit way to recover.
The only road block is edge hogging. Then again, if they stay on the edge to long and you are close enough they risk a stage spike.....


:EDIT:
Here is my opinion on the match ups (I didn't edit many of the Sheik+Zelda match up things cuz I'm not terribly knowledgeable over Sheik+Zelda)

 

[<π]

Its rarely this simple but if he is coming of to get up deep of stage you can chain, (sheik is invincible on pullin) at those ranges where chain isn't an option use up B you get similar distance on vansih plus invlu.

upB at max length will at worst yield a hit deeper into the stage. Learn all the reapear point for vansish so you can always land on stage when you need to or avoid it if there is a heavy smash waiting.

 

[Judo777]

sry but i do not think that we have the advanatge against mk there is just no way. MK is better than sheik in almost every aspect of the game except for having less movement speed and not having a projectile. GR > DACUS does not change the matchup because grabbing mk is hard and its really hard to pull off.

 

[ddonaldo]

thanks for the tips <3 and savior
im sure this is known by everyone but I didnt know we were invincible on pull-in, I just always assumed it was because we move so fast that the opponent is never able to hit me lol.

Nice background on the matchup =]
Apart from snake and MK I agree with that list. But I dont think we have advantage against DK, I would have gone 50:50 at best and marth at 55:45 at best.
Also I did hear someone mentioning a CG and ive never played a main lucario, but I dont know why we have a great disadvantage against lucario

 

[saviorslegacy]

sry but i do not think that we have the advanatge against mk there is just no way. MK is better than sheik in almost every aspect of the game except for having less movement speed and not having a projectile. GR > DACUS does not change the matchup because grabbing mk is hard and its really hard to pull off.

I strongly disagree.

MK's Fair/Bair < our Bair
We can attack through this according to <3.

MK's Dair camping= wait
No rush, just punish the landing with Needle's. There is a landing point and when he does land get after him.
If he use's it offensively just try and power shield/tilt your shield up and counter with u-tilt.
If all else fails boost into him with a Vanish.

I played a MK yesterday from EU that got 9th out of 100 and he couldn't Dair camp me because I played like this.

Needle's/Chain go through the Nado.

If we SDI into the stage and touch it we lose our hit stun from the Dair and we can tether the ledge.

We have a 30+% f-tilt lock on him.

We can chain camp him.

We can kill him with GR> DACUS after 90%.

We have a GR CG that can lead into Needle's.

If push comes to shove we can ignore his Dair camping, punish with a Needle Storm, wait for him to approach, punish with f-tilt/u-tilt and try and follow up if you can. You will eventually be able to f-tilt/jab> grab> GR DACUS or f-tilt> USmash.
If not then punish until you get to higher percents.


So let me ask you, what does MK have against us? Oh wait, I just remembered that gimp game. Wait... we can SDI up and Dair down. Never mind.....



I lol at people thinking he is invincible and saying that Sheik is mid tier.

 

[ddonaldo]

you're actually starting to convince me. I actually never play "campy" enough against MK. My sheik is quite chain heavy but whenever I play MK I needle until he approaches me and then disregard everything I have learnt and play him like I'm playing a falcon or link for some reason

I'll probable jump into some AiB matches 2morrow

 

[saviorslegacy]

you're actually starting to convince me. I actually never play "campy" enough against MK. My sheik is quite chain heavy but whenever I play MK I needle until he approaches me and then disregard everything I have learnt and play him like I'm playing a falcon or link for some reason

I'll probable jump into some AiB matches 2morrow

Link= crawl approach
We can duck under his Zair, Rang (unless angled down), Bomb's (unless thrown straight down) and arrows (unless they fall on us). Most of the time you know when you will be hit so just hit shield. The only attack I have a problem with is the Rang.


DK= we have a legit Swan Combo on him w/o decay. It also finish's with a USmash.
So we can do something like f-tilt lock> Fair> Swan> end with DSmash if you aren't close to the edge or end with USmash

Meh, Marth= us with a little more range with Fair (our Bair basically), no tether, a tipper, no Chain, no projectile and a good Up+B.

Snake= juggle the shiz out of him
(BTW, D-Throw makes an explosion... but U-Throw doesn't.)
He has few option for landing. All of the options he does have we can see coming.
Such as Nade pulling. Depending on when he pulled it you should either grab> U-Throw or Needle's and make it blow up in his hand.
If he throws Nades to where they drop on you just be aware of when they will blow. Try and pick them up if you cam and throw them away. Use the nades against him.

C-4> blow up on us is lol. We will be around him and if he lands on his C-4 he wont blow it up.
We can easily stand away from it and wait for him to land.


Lucario is really hard to combo and he has really good range so it makes it hard for us to approach.
I have played a really good Lucario before. They are beatable. I found that shield dash in close and abusing jab> grab was really good against him.

 

[Judo777]

SL i have to disagree. A few things MK has on us.

1: if he swings his sword when we attack he always wins with very few exceptions MK has laser prioity on most of his attacks.

2: if the MK is smart he can bait our needles by acting like he will land and then jump again which he has 6 trys to try and bait if you count the inital jump. If he thinks we ever arent going to throw them then he can safely land it is very far from guarenteed against mk. I play a luigi who is good at this trick and he has 1 mid air jump.

3: we DO have grab release DACUS, grab release pummel regrab on aerial release. These are good and if you can perform the GR > DACUS then you have a relaible kill setup provided u grab meta in the right places and can perfrom it properly but if theyre are platforms that becomes much harder. Also we have GR > 1 needle since all the others can be avoided by sdi and jumping i have tested fairly thoroughly so its really better to throw unless they arent paying attention.

4: Aside from tippered Upsmash MK kills alot earlier than us because his SL and Dsmash are retardedly good. And gimping with MK is easier than most characters and if we screw up once offstage that costs us a stock.

5: his frame data is almost just as good as ours (if not better) most all of his moves come out maybe (max) 2 frames slower than our but end an average of like 7 frames earlier. Granted all of these are pretty general but its close and hes got sick priority.

6: Chain can mess with MK some but he does have several ways of getting around it like coming from behind. I know we can hit him behind us but its very hard to hold him at bay since you cant hit him near as often and his moves come out so fast its not a safe bet. Also anystage that allows you too come up thro the stage prevent all chain camping,since you cant come up from underneathe , such as Halberd, Delfino,Brinstar etc

 

[clowsui]

you can't dair camp properly on wifi, saviors

and you can't space perfect on wifi either with mk

we have at least 2-3 mk in ohio that have near perfect defensive spacing, it's ********

once you face them you will understand...this matchup is dumb hard for sheik because she's the one doing the work to beat his zoning tools

also consider that an mk will never pick you to a stage without platforms...so you can't wait for their landing and throw needles because they're just going to land on the platform with their 6 jumps

and it ALWAYS comes down to the push shove situation...in which you're waiting for him to mess up. wait, what? is that how matchups work, now? we discuss them based on how the opponent messes up? realistically, of course they're going to mess up, but when you talk about matchups you're talking about consistent play that doesn't involve many mistakes if at all >__>;

by the way good luck sdi'ing up through a semi spike dair and dairing onto the stage, fair isn't his only gimp move, neither is tornado, up b, uair, nair...he has a whole arsenal

you don't understand since you haven't ever played a real mk. i've done this matchup even against mediocre metaknights and it's ridiculously difficult. i'll grant that i wasn't playing it well though, and i invite you to try this in tournament and i'll laugh as you get destroyed trying your theoretical tricks.

 

[saviorslegacy]

you can't dair camp properly on wifi, saviors

and you can't space perfect on wifi either with mk

we have at least 2-3 mk in ohio that have near perfect defensive spacing, it's ********

once you face them you will understand...this matchup is dumb hard for sheik because she's the one doing the work to beat his zoning tools

also consider that an mk will never pick you to a stage without platforms...so you can't wait for their landing and throw needles because they're just going to land on the platform with their 6 jumps

and it ALWAYS comes down to the push shove situation...in which you're waiting for him to mess up. wait, what? is that how matchups work, now? we discuss them based on how the opponent messes up? realistically, of course they're going to mess up, but when you talk about matchups you're talking about consistent play that doesn't involve many mistakes if at all >__>;

by the way good luck sdi'ing up through a semi spike dair and dairing onto the stage, fair isn't his only gimp move, neither is tornado, up b, uair, nair...he has a whole arsenal

you don't understand since you haven't ever played a real mk. i've done this matchup even against mediocre metaknights and it's ridiculously difficult. i'll grant that i wasn't playing it well though, and i invite you to try this in tournament and i'll laugh as you get destroyed trying your theoretical tricks.

I have spent a long time studying MK and I know him on paper perfectly. I also know that Sheik on paper is better. You just don't have a Sheik on paper, and neither do I, yet.

If he picks BF then good jab for him. He just gave us more options. Now we have Vanish Glides, Needle Glides (which are actually a good escape tool), Vanish Cancel spots and tipper set up. We also have chain stuff but that is pretty situational so it's not worth mentioning.

If the bozzo decides to land on a platform then we can u-tilt through it. It has a lot of range. We can also get up lose to the platform that they are gonna land on and punish with Chain. We also have DACUS punishing options. His only real safe option is the top center platform. Keep in mind that we have the second fastest jump speed, a fast Uair and the tip of her foot is not a hit box.

Dair camping is a JOKE.

Dair camping at BF only makes it more likely that they wont get punished by Needle's.
We can still jump up onto the platform and punish with Needle's.
Except, we get tipper options!


BTW, it is harder to space Sheik on wi-fi than it is MK.
Ball with multi jumps > fast falling quick jump Ninja
The ball is easier.

 

[clowsui]

i'm not arguing this lol

it should be obvious based on mk's tools alone, compared to sheik's, that the matchup is in his favor

that's all i'm going to say

by the way your utilt strategy loses to shielding -> drop punish

your "jump prediction" strategy loses to 6 jumps

fast uair/whatever doesn't beat perfect shielding...mk can react to whatever the f*** you try to do to him on a platform so long as he's on the top middle platform

 

[saviorslegacy]

i'm not arguing this lol

it should be obvious based on mk's tools alone, compared to sheik's, that the matchup is in his favor

that's all i'm going to say

by the way your utilt strategy loses to shielding -> drop punish

your "jump prediction" strategy loses to 6 jumps

fast uair/whatever doesn't beat perfect shielding...mk can react to whatever the f*** you try to do to him on a platform so long as he's on the top middle platform

Then I guess our timing needs to be so that we hit upon his landing or slightly before. About as hard as it would be for him to perfect shield.

You are basing your opinion on times you have been punished instead of mechanics.
All we need is a skilled Sheik.


Ninja Tools > Bat Tools
I already stated that Sheik on paper beats MK on papaer.

Meh, it's debating, not arguing.
Arguing= when two people are mad at each other
Debating= solving a disagreement through words w/o angering one of the people involved

 

[Judo777]

Ok SL i like your enthusiasm but there is no way in hell that we are better than MK on paper. MK is better than EVERYONE on paper! Everything about MK is stupidly good on paper. MK has amazing priority, good grab reach, awesome OoS options, amazing recovery, excellent frame data (tho ours is about as good). Everything about him is ridculous. Vanish tricks are good but vanish by definition forces you to trick your opponent for it to land. So vanish should never apply to considering a matchup. We have cool things like needles and ftilts to rack dmg but meta racks dmg just as well. he doesnt have to jump on a platform to avoid the needles he can wait and see if we are gonna throw them and if we do he can just jump again. He kills easier than us gimps better and racks dmg about as well. I know a good deal about the MK matchup too and sheik has to outplay meta sooo much in order to win.

 

[CR4SH]

Savior, judo and clow know what they're talking about. You, obviously, do not. Hush.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Ok SL i like your enthusiasm but there is no way in hell that we are better than MK on paper. MK is better than EVERYONE on paper! Everything about MK is stupidly good on paper. MK has amazing priority, good grab reach, awesome OoS options, amazing recovery, excellent frame data (tho ours is about as good). Everything about him is ridculous. Vanish tricks are good but vanish by definition forces you to trick your opponent for it to land. So vanish should never apply to considering a matchup. We have cool things like needles and ftilts to rack dmg but meta racks dmg just as well. he doesnt have to jump on a platform to avoid the needles he can wait and see if we are gonna throw them and if we do he can just jump again. He kills easier than us gimps better and racks dmg about as well. I know a good deal about the MK matchup too and sheik has to outplay meta sooo much in order to win.

Most Sheiks (Neo, Tristan and Light) say their only beef is the recovery.
All of the other stuff is purely even.

I gave us the advantage because of Chain Camping and GR> DACUS.

I do have to agree that everything that MK has is incredibly good, but we have options that even it out.
That is my opinion.


Everyone has this mental block that MK is a god. He is good but the reason why he is so freakin good is meta game advancement. I have all of Sheiks meta game in my head and I'm starting to put percents for each combo on every character in there too. Including combo's that you all are unaware of.
Maybe on BF it is dead even, but where we can get a GR> DACUS we have a 5% advantage.

Spoiler

I have a combo that I am working on that gives us these kind of results

Meta Knight

Strong Nair= 40%
Nair second stage= 110%
Sweet Spot Bair= 34%
Strong Bair= 50%
weak Bair= 94%
Fair= 57%

Snake

Strong Nair= 50%
Nair second stage= 130%
Sweet Spot Bair= 42%
Strong Bair= 62%
weak Bair= 105%
Fair= 69%

Some of you might no what that is. It doesn't involve DACUS and the percents listed are kill percents.

 

[CR4SH]

If (and its a big if) grab release to dacus was as big of a deal as you seem to think it is, MKs would find a way around being grabbed. Or even more specific, avoid getting grabbed at percents that make grab release to dacus a big deal. Tell me MK doesn't have the tools for that.

Also, there are ways around chain camping. You're not a robot and neither are they. Plus, you can't chain camp when you're behind.

MK is better, live with it.

 

[saviorslegacy]

If (and its a big if) grab release to dacus was as big of a deal as you seem to think it is, MKs would find a way around being grabbed. Or even more specific, avoid getting grabbed at percents that make grab release to dacus a big deal. Tell me MK doesn't have the tools for that.

Also, there are ways around chain camping. You're not a robot and neither are they. Plus, you can't chain camp when you're behind.

MK is better, live with it.

Fair, weak Nair, weak Bair, f-tilt , GR, f-tilt and jab all lead into grab at GR> DACUS percents.
He has to avoid all of our good options and fast moves then.

He can however Dair camp to avoid it but that will only slowly get up his percent. It will reduce our grab options though.

I am trying to make myself a robot at the chain.

I will never accept that.
I have three goals.

#1 Max out Sheiks meta game.

#2 Prove Sheik is at least high tier quality at a tourney.

#3 Prove that Sheik is better than MK not only by shier data but by tourney results.


At the rate I'm going I hope to be placing in tournies by 2010/2011.

 

[Judo777]

SL you can't use information that is not out there for the community as evidence. You can't say that u have combos we dont know about because there is no way to prove that. I could say i found an infinite meta has on sheik out of a grab at all percents but im not gonna tell you what it is. And Dair camping racks up our percents easier than we rack up his by reacting. I think thats a safe argument because if it was easier to rack up metas dair camping than it is for him to hit us people would be doing it already. And no there is no question that meta has better almost everything i listed. sheik has very few OoS options meta has a ton. Metas priority is better period. And he has more grab range period. With the exception of the OoS options and possibly the frame data (simply because which is "better" doesnt have a definite meaning) everything i said is true and cant be debated.

I agree that MK meta game is far advanced and that does give him a boost but he is still a better character on paper. On paper rarely determines what happens in the actual game.

Also you can't use perfect chaining as an arguement either cause if you are perfect you are out playing your opponent who is not perfect.

 

[saviorslegacy]

SL you can't use information that is not out there for the community as evidence. You can't say that u have combos we dont know about because there is no way to prove that. I could say i found an infinite meta has on sheik out of a grab at all percents but im not gonna tell you what it is. And Dair camping racks up our percents easier than we rack up his by reacting. I think thats a safe argument because if it was easier to rack up metas dair camping than it is for him to hit us people would be doing it already. And no there is no question that meta has better almost everything i listed. sheik has very few OoS options meta has a ton. Metas priority is better period. And he has more grab range period. With the exception of the OoS options and possibly the frame data (simply because which is "better" doesnt have a definite meaning) everything i said is true and cant be debated.

I agree that MK meta game is far advanced and that does give him a boost but he is still a better character on paper. On paper rarely determines what happens in the actual game.

Also you can't use perfect chaining as an arguement either cause if you are perfect you are out playing your opponent who is not perfect.

That was a match up chart IMO. I don't have to go elaborate why I believe how I believe.

hmmm...

Dair Camp to attack us > u-tilt/power shield u-tilt

Yeah, he does have more OoS than us. We have DSmash, f-tilt and jab which covers us pretty well.

So what if he has better grab range. If you include Ganons >B then he has like the best grab range.

Priority doesn't exist.
He has a few attack with like that priority that can't be beaten though. We have Chain, Needle's and Vanish.

MK doesn't have better everything listed.

Bottom line is... "We have a counter for every options he has + a better camp game and a legit KO move that works below 100%!"

Perfect chain is like Wave Shine. Hard at first but you'll get it.


When I have talked to Light about MK he doesn't talk about stupid things that we have counters against. He talks about a TRUE weakness. Which is what your argument should be focused on. MK ***** us over the edge + we are light.


Seriously stop and take a look. I wouldn't come out and say that we have the advantage w/o talking to people that know what they are talking about, comparing options, looking at situational's and looking at KO moves + KO set ups.

 

[<π]

lol, anti-saviors.

Seriously I don't think he is that far off. meta can't dair camp sheik effectively. her aerial game is too fast. and short hopped aerial used to space should be punished by needles 9 times out of ten.
His longer dash animation means he should eat needles more often as well if he tries to use his ground speed to compensate for his poor aerial speed.

I don't know meta is a hard match up but once you start to understand where the holes are it is so much easier Meta doesn't have many solid approaches on sheik simply because she is so fat. His approaches rely on mind games for the most part as do his follow ups . recovery isn't that big of an issue IMO, with good DI you should be surviving till 130-150 at least each stock, you guys are giving meta way way too much credit.

 

[saviorslegacy]

lol, anti-saviors.

Seriously I don't think he is that far off. meta can't dair camp sheik effectively. her aerial game is too fast. and short hopped aerial used to space should be punished by needles 9 times out of ten.
His longer dash animation means he should eat needles more often as well if he tries to use his ground speed to compensate for his poor aerial speed.

I don't know meta is a hard match up but once you start to understand where the holes are it is so much easier Meta doesn't have many solid approaches on sheik simply because she is so fat. His approaches rely on mind games for the most part as do his follow ups . recovery isn't that big of an issue IMO, with good DI you should be surviving till 130-150 at least each stock, you guys are giving meta way way too much credit.

wow.. if I didn't already have a sig I would sig "lol, anti-saviors.".

Hey, another one to the corps.

The holes are what I was trying to get at (or at least holes that Sheik can make). Sheik can counter everything he does to us. Some may be harder than others but she can do it.

I agree, people view him to much as a God instead of someone that is OU, advanced and and has some broken qualities.
(Sheik= under used, getting advanced and has a few broken qualities)
Like Tristan said, when Sheiks meta game will be fully advanced she will practically be a MK (I don't know about you but I think she is advanced... at least in my head she is).

Oh, BTW thanks <3.

 

[Judo777]

Ok well i'll conieide in the debate for right now simply because talking about this wont get us anywhere. I'm not trying to shoot you down either saviors so dont feel that i am against you. If we are gonna talk about this we should rediscuss the matchup. However i will not be convinced until i see tourney results that say otherwise. A sheik consistently beating someone like Judge or Affinity might change my mind.

 

[clowsui]

lmao i find it funny how you're trying to neutralize all our arguments by saying that we believe mk is a god character...

Close Range: Dtilt - 4-frame startup zoning tool that outranges or trades with most moves in the game
FTilt - legitimate shield pressure tool that can vary in hit structure so as to change its usages.
Tornado - mobile pressure tool that exhibits shield pressure, creates a juggle trap and is essentially safe save characters who have quick moves that outprioritize it (MK), good shields (Diddy) or grenades (Snake).

Mid Range - Fair - excellent zoning aerial that can be autocancelled and used to punish aerial approaches or misspaced punishments.
Dair - when rising, can be used as a form of shield pressure. Also sends opponent at awkward angle, so excellent method of approach provided it is used in a rising fashion.
FSmash - creates a wall on the ground that prevents any sort of approach
DSmash - 6 frame startup punishment tool with good KB

Offstage - Nair - 6(?)-hitbox move that is MK's strongest aerial and by far his most useful in terms of edgeguarding.
Dair - semi spike, nuff said
Shuttle Loop - 5 frame startup, can be cancelled into a glide attack and has excellent angle on most of its hitbox's duration
Glide attack - so long as MK has at least 2 jumps he can descend into a glide and use the glide attack

Juggle traps - UAir, Tornado, DAir, Nair, Fair - All can be utilized in conjunction with 6 jumps

Long range - nothing.

Misc. - Good spotdodge, poor horizontal/vertical aerial mobility, poor/mediocre rolls, good full hop height, average short hop height given aerials
--

In order to properly argue about MK, we have to agree that on a common set of tools. Would you like to add or remove anything from this list of MK's tools?

 

[saviorslegacy]

Ok well i'll conieide in the debate for right now simply because talking about this wont get us anywhere. I'm not trying to shoot you down either saviors so dont feel that i am against you. If we are gonna talk about this we should rediscuss the matchup. However i will not be convinced until i see tourney results that say otherwise. A sheik consistently beating someone like Judge or Affinity might change my mind.

Problem is we don't have any Sheiks of that skill level.
You could easily say that Snake is good but if he didn't have people playing as him it would just be people saying he is good and a few people trying to prove it.

lmao i find it funny how you're trying to neutralize all our arguments by saying that we believe mk is a god character...

Close Range: Dtilt - 4-frame startup zoning tool that outranges or trades with most moves in the game
FTilt - legitimate shield pressure tool that can vary in hit structure so as to change its usages.
Tornado - mobile pressure tool that exhibits shield pressure, creates a juggle trap and is essentially safe save characters who have quick moves that outprioritize it (MK), good shields (Diddy) or grenades (Snake).

Mid Range - Fair - excellent zoning aerial that can be autocancelled and used to punish aerial approaches or misspaced punishments.
Dair - when rising, can be used as a form of shield pressure. Also sends opponent at awkward angle, so excellent method of approach provided it is used in a rising fashion.
FSmash - creates a wall on the ground that prevents any sort of approach
DSmash - 6 frame startup punishment tool with good KB

Offstage - Nair - 6(?)-hitbox move that is MK's strongest aerial and by far his most useful in terms of edgeguarding.
Dair - semi spike, nuff said
Shuttle Loop - 5 frame startup, can be cancelled into a glide attack and has excellent angle on most of its hitbox's duration
Glide attack - so long as MK has at least 2 jumps he can descend into a glide and use the glide attack

Juggle traps - UAir, Tornado, DAir, Nair, Fair - All can be utilized in conjunction with 6 jumps

Long range - nothing.

Misc. - Good spotdodge, poor horizontal/vertical aerial mobility, poor/mediocre rolls, good full hop height, average short hop height given aerials
--

In order to properly argue about MK, we have to agree that on a common set of tools. Would you like to add or remove anything from this list of MK's tools?

K, there are MK's tools. Here are Sheiks.


Ground game-
jab- comes out at frame 2 and can be canceled into a grab
This is great cuz it can lead into a grab or semi lead into an f-tilt.

An f-tilt lock that also sets up for loads of combo's including a KO.
It is also safe of shield when spaced properly.


Our Bair is a perfect spacing tool that also sets up for combo's. Fair and Nair are similar. All three can be auto canceled.

We can do an out of shield Fair/Nair while DIing to where you want to go. Nair comes out on frame 3 BTW.

Our options off stage are Fair, Bair, Nair, Needle's and Vanish.

Ground traps include OoS Fair> f-tilt/Needle's. We can also jab> grab> D-Throw and set up for anti airing him with u-tilt.
We also have OoS Vanish to get on a platform or a plain Vanish to try and catch him or punish any attempt to harm us.
However, our best trap is Chain as it sets up a chain lock and MK doesn't really have any way to deal with it.

jab> jab> d-tilt> retreating Nair is safe on shields
You can also jab> jab> grab.

Long range= Needle's they go through every single attack he has


Misc. GR> DACUS, good shield dash, good Boost Walk, second fastest jump and decent, good short hop and good full hop



The whole idea here is to punish him trying to camp you in the air and fight him on your terms... the ground.
MK's ONLY strengths in this match up is juggling and gimping. He also out ranges us for the most part in the air. However, those two things don't make it a bad match up.
If anything he makes it even for us except for when we have the option of GR> DACUS. IMO GR> DACUS gives us enough of an edge to swing it into a 45 : 55 for him.

 

[<π]

I'm that skill level
I eat MKs.

Meta has amazing tools, don't get me wrong but against sheik you can use them like you would against even characters like snake and D3. Sheik is way~ to fast to fall into alot of the spacing and camp traps other characters do. And conversly unlike most of teh cast sheik is flat out made to punish mistakes. dair nair fair bair, all of those can be punished on reaction by sheik with one of her aerials.
In lag, cuz MK has it, you can rack up big damage through ftilt locks and combos. fair/bair to tilts and grabs etc.
GRDacus is jawsome, though admittedly situational it opens up a lot of ops for kills at lower percents. sheik fortunately still has other kill ops in dsmash SSbair, nair, uair freash fair. usmash hits though nado I just found out lol.

MK has amazing tools, but trust me he isn't an impenetrable wall by any means. once sheik clears the gates she does some damage in there.