Sheikah Survival Guide: A Sheik Match-up Thread

[choknater]

frame data is kinda irrelevant in the sonic matchup lol its mostly about trying to adapt to his movement

sheiks frame data ***** anyway... tho i do have a lot of trouble with zss and squirtle sometimes cuz they have better frame data :D

 

[stealth3654]

Hey Chock, I almost forgot. Did you still want to rediscuss Lucario for our next character?

 

[choknater]

yes sir!!! it would be ehlpful

 

[stealth3654]

Alright then, next up we will be rediscussing Lucario.

Discuss!!!

 

[choknater]

man i dont know what it is about this guy but i find him tough... i just run into fsmash and i dont know his hitboxes lol

can u guys give me tips?

i dont havem uch experience against him either

i just know to needles lol

 

[Judo777]

I have quite a bit of experience in this matchup. Firstly this MU is stupid. Its stupid because you have to rack lucario up to stupidly high percents to kill him and at that point jabs are doing like 8 dmg.

In this MU it is important to pressure with needles alot just make sure u arent trading with aura spheres of equal charge cause u lose the trade. at low percents watch out for force palm it chain grabs sheik up to like 60% maybe only 40 idk.

Learn Lucarios stupid hitboxes because they are enormous and last forever especially usmash which stays out FOREVER long. And dont run into fsamsh cause it has less cooldown than u think.

Things you should do: get in his face because we are alot faster than him upclose. Get in safe and hit him with quick jabs and tilts. His only comparing move up close is uptilt which if u block u can punish on shield with say a jab.

Every single time you knock him offstage u should be edge guarding in one way or another. If u dont edgeguard him u will not kill him at any decent percent. Gimping is a good idea in this MU just be careful because his aerials beat most of your if not all so make sure he isnt in a positon to attack or try to bait them. if you can hit him while offstage grabbing the ledge is almost a guarenteed stock provided there is no wall for him to jump off of. Another good tactic is to just grab the ledge and he is then forced to recover to the stage which u can ledge hop and punish. Edgeguarding is the most important thing IMO on this MU.

Things lucarios will do to you: they will try and gimp you too and they have alot of tools to do so. Fair will stuff almost anything you do offstage. Dair is also very ridiculous and can kill offstage very easily. Dair can make grabbing the ledge impossible if done right. So recover fast and unexpectedly or rather try and mixup your recovery. Also watch out for ledge traps. Lucarios love to sit a good distance back charging aura sphere and wait for u to get back on the stage from the ledge. If u decide to ledge hop which isnt a bad idea always do NOT waste your second jump unless u plan on jumping all the way over him. He will wait for u to land and u will take an aura sphere. Mixup your decisions coming back from the ledge cause aura sphere can punish all your options just about.

Lastly watch out for grabs at high percents they can kill and DO NOT ever spot dodge aura sphere if u can help it. It is very slow and at higher percents u have to be like almost frame perfect to dodge the larger spheres. Just block em or jump over.

 

[stealth3654]

This match-up is kind of hard for Sheik. Sheik has to get Lucario up to a high % in order to kill him, but he also gets stronger the more damage he takes. When he gets to really high %s, forward smash kills very early and pummels from grabs to about 5% each. I recommend switching to Zelda for the kill if you have not edgeguarded him yet. When Lucario is off the stage, you should be doing everything you can to prevent him from getting back onto the stage. If you don't gimp him, look at it as free damage . While Lucario is recovering with his up B from far away, don't just hang on the ledge because Lucario can wall cling the ledge and get back to the stage.

I'm not sure, but I think I read somewhere that the more damage Lucario takes and the more he is losing, thre more range, damage, and knockback his forward smash has. I also think I read somewhere that the tipper of his fsmash does more knockback.

I say ban Frigate since he can wall cling from his up B on the side without a ledge while you can't.

CP Final Destination or Battle Field.

 

[iLight]

I played against mirachael/RT and I have a new strategy vs lucario that drastically swings this match up in our favor, to like 60/40 or 55/45 sheik. To put it simply you camp and never approach, and even from that position its relatively easy to gain the lead. The only things you have to be good at/know are lucarios hitboxes/how to p-shield aura spheres/how to p-shield f-smash etc, then just punish out of shield every time and don't get grabbed which is pretty easy to solve by simply moving around with shield dashing. Lucario is simply not fast enough to properly punish sheik for this tactic, so as long as we play with patience we have the advantage here. The only reason why i say it may only be 55/45 is because i know that say someone like Lee Martin playing lucario will certainly be able to cross me up more than someone like RT/mirachael's lucarios, so i would have to learn a few harder things to watch out for, but generally the same rule applies and the matchup is still in our favor

 

[stealth3654]

Yeah, I have tried this tactic during a tournament match against a competent Lucario player that usually beats me. Using this tactic, I two stocked him both matches.

 

[<π]

yeah... do that against everyone. not just lucario.

 

[Tristan_win]

...Has anyone ever look at the ratios on the front page?

It's pretty **** funny how Sheik is "60/40" with Meta knight, Snake, ROB, Marth, Lucario, and Pikachu.

Sheik VS Snakes, Rob's, Marth, and Lucarios are not just as hard as Meta Knight to fight with sheik.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying meta knight is extremely hard to fight with sheik they just don't deserved to be on the same level of difficult.

 

[saviorslegacy]

...Has anyone ever look at the ratios on the front page?

It's pretty **** funny how Sheik is "60/40" with Meta knight, Snake, ROB, Marth, Lucario, and Pikachu.

Sheik VS Snakes, Rob's, Marth, and Lucarios are not just as hard as Meta Knight to fight with sheik.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying meta knight is extremely hard to fight with sheik they just don't deserved to be on the same level of difficult.

I agree, and have for a long time.
The people that discuss Sheik with us look at her as bottom of mid tier and she can't be anything other than 60 : 40.

 

[<π]

Noone knows anything about sheik. They just guess.

 

[iLight]

I always say ****s in sheik's favor and people look at me with eyes that say shutup lol

 

[choknater]

let's talk about lucario

 

[phi1ny3]

I was about to say, RT claims he's garbage lol. But he does do a decent lucario.
I'd say that this MU has gotten a little better for sheik, and yes, camping is really stupid in this MU. Unfortunately, this isn't as bad as say, falco's camping, where we pretty much have to try to bleed ourselves out and string falco hardcore to get worth out of whatever hit we connect with, and then he has that stupid IAP to reset.

Anywho, lucario's have been getting wiser about punish options.
For whoever wanted to know, aura increases in damage, knockback, and shieldstun (aka the higher he is in damage, the more safe his moves become on block), and lucario fair is very good in this MU if used correctly. Ftilt has become the newer punisher for entry attempts, it's fsmash's little brother that compensates for it's poor killpower with twin, lingering hitboxes with range comparable to marth fair. Utilt will also be a big option in this MU, setting up sheik in the air where we want her more.
lucario usmash shouldn't be worried about too much, just don't make a move that commits much (thankfully lots of sheik's moves don't). FP doesn't CG anymore, people can mash out of it like a normal grab. However, it can still be used to string up stuff that lands about the same amount % wise, so still keep away from doing anything punishable.
You'll want to swan combo or whatever it's called, since lucario has a good answer for a ftilt-happy sheik. Dair alone does a lot of things to help lucario in this MU. I still think it's in our favor, I don't know about ratios though. Oh yeah, watch out for lucario setup moves and frame traps, he's got a lot of them.
What exactly is the frame data for needles? This may determine what camping measures people have lol.
I'll post more later probably.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

In this MU it is important to pressure with needles alot just make sure u arent trading with aura spheres of equal charge cause u lose the trade. at low percents watch out for force palm it chain grabs sheik up to like 60% maybe only 40 idk.

I'm surprised this is still showing up.

Chain grab doesn't work, mash out like any grab and you'll break out.

 

[<π]

this match up scares me because Lucario has a fast grab that we turn into a kill with our low killing power I hate kill throws. you have to be very pateint in this match up and not make mistakes because small ones will cost you. never run towards him cuz you might trip and die.

SAVE DSMASH NAIR AND BAIR PLEASE. all of them. punish any errors with those dash attck sets him up pretty well for kill ops after like 150? ge isn't that great in the air against us IMO. not from really high above.

 

[Aurasmash14]

I played against mirachael/RT and I have a new strategy vs lucario that drastically swings this match up in our favor, to like 60/40 or 55/45 sheik. To put it simply you camp and never approach, and even from that position its relatively easy to gain the lead. The only things you have to be good at/know are lucarios hitboxes/how to p-shield aura spheres/how to p-shield f-smash etc, then just punish out of shield every time and don't get grabbed which is pretty easy to solve by simply moving around with shield dashing. Lucario is simply not fast enough to properly punish sheik for this tactic, so as long as we play with patience we have the advantage here. The only reason why i say it may only be 55/45 is because i know that say someone like Lee Martin playing lucario will certainly be able to cross me up more than someone like RT/mirachael's lucarios, so i would have to learn a few harder things to watch out for, but generally the same rule applies and the matchup is still in our favor

Actually, this just wont work. saying you can just PS AS everytime is like saying dont get grabbed when facing ICs. Fsmash and Aurasphere are incredibly safe, and i highly doubt shiek can punish them oos(IASA frames rule )In fact, living in your shield when facing AS is just wrong. Lucario is fast enough to attack in near conjunction with AS, and can wallop shiek with Fair>nair,>grab to upthrow chain if she doesnt try to escape. Lucario's punish game IS trashy, but you cant simply hop around and never get hit. Lucario has Lingering hitboxes on many many attacks and can control the stage quite well. I honestly believe the tactic wont work against a good lucario, and still believe its in lucario's favor.

 

[<π]

Pshield + dash attack is 6 frames? it has more range than fsmash too. sheik is really good at punishing OOS because of this.

 

[phi1ny3]

Not to bag on it, but we've learned how to get past PS a long time ago. Fsmash is now rarely used like it used to be (lol walling) and is only used often if the opponent is landing to catch frames, or if they're offstage/are sure the character can't punish it. Otherwise it's a bad risk.

 

[iLight]

Actually, this just wont work. saying you can just PS AS everytime is like saying dont get grabbed when facing ICs. Fsmash and Aurasphere are incredibly safe, and i highly doubt shiek can punish them oos(IASA frames rule )In fact, living in your shield when facing AS is just wrong. Lucario is fast enough to attack in near conjunction with AS, and can wallop shiek with Fair>nair,>grab to upthrow chain if she doesnt try to escape. Lucario's punish game IS trashy, but you cant simply hop around and never get hit. Lucario has Lingering hitboxes on many many attacks and can control the stage quite well. I honestly believe the tactic wont work against a good lucario, and still believe its in lucario's favor.

I completely agree with you in saying that of course I won't be able to run around and never be hit, for example if i played someone like Lee Martin I know he would definately be able to mind game and I'd have to adapt and understand where he is coming from next or how to get to him. On the other hand I do disagree and believe that I honestly can PS AS > 90% of the time. The same for f-smash at a slightly lower rate. My understanding and ability to win this match up come from the idea that I do in fact understand and realize where and how lucario's hitboxes are extended as I'm playing and move around with that idea in mind. Also I disagree, even a good lucario while exceedingly more patient and competent a stage control could fall prey to this tactic implemented properly bringing the match up much closer and potentially to sheiks advantage like I said before due to OOS options which are quite a few depending on the type of move lucario uses.

Now say lucario is good and uses the better option of u-tilts and f-tilts to punish for approaching, this limits their lag and makes it slightly different with the type of OOS option I have to choose when going in. Say i shield a f-tilt, if I don't mess up and shield the whole thing I would have enough time to jab>f-tilt>nair or even 2 jabs > f-tilt > nair depending on where I am in my list of sheilding/punish cross ups so I don't get punished.

Also on a final note about my ideas regarding this type of strategy that I'm detailing. When PS AS i don't approach while i'm powershielding them that's asking for trouble, I stand far far away especially if I have a % lead and PS them until lucario approaches or some positioning on the stage gives me a safe advantage etc.

 

[phi1ny3]

Oh yeah, and I can see Lucario's ability to keep in the air pretty well (not multiple jump well, but pretty darn close) will inhibit needle camping, at least slightly.
I think sheik has the potential to punish, but unfortunately, that gets diminished as lucario gets at higher percent, something of which will happen in this MU, and will cause sheik a whole slew of problems unless she gets a lucky early kill somehow. I'd say 45:55 Lucario's favor at least, there's definitely not an "even" in this MU.
As for stages, I think that Frigate would be a typical Lucario CP, so ban that. I'm not exactly sure what floats sheik's boat for CPs, but I'll say that low ceilings + decent distances to let you weave around and stay grounded is best, so possibly Halberd?
For Neutrals though, I'm at a bit of a loss to say what is outstandingly good for one character or the other, plus Neutrals very a lot depending on region.

 

[iLight]

i usually strike yoshis/ps1 or lylat vs lucario

as for CP i would ban one of those probably.

personally i love frigate/FD/halberd in this match up

the second part of frigate is very similar to halberd's moving part

I don't really rely on needles in this match up, like i said i prefer to just PS lucario's AS. as far as killing lucario, its really not so bad to either A ledge guard lucario which is how i get half my kills on people anyways or B land an u-smash/dsmash/nair on him to finish usually as a function of ledge guarding or outspacing after i get a grab. honestly i say this match up is at least 50/50

 

[phi1ny3]

Lucario AS is stupid for camping. It's good for frame trapping though :D.
I honestly can't see Sheik liking Frigate as much as lucario, but I'll give the nod if there's some explanation.
And I'm confused about the whole PS aspect, if you PS AS and you're able to punish lucario, the lucario usually did it wrong and fired it too close (unless he was attempting to punish something, since AS comes out faster than fsmash).
I really can't see it as even or in sheik's favor, merely because the options listed sound more along player error than merely character tool/metagame design. Then again, characters like sheik live on badly spaced stuff.
Also, I'm too lazy to quote, but I'd be veeeeery careful about saying that putting lucario up in the air for juggling's a good thing for sheik. If Lucario's misusing dair, he will get blown out many times, but Lucario is pretty much one of the hardest characters to juggle in this game, with a really good dair/stall method, great air maneuverability, long ranged horizontal aerials that linger, and B-reversal. In other words, whatever sheik has over lucario in juggling, Lucario probably has much better over sheik besides maybe setups.

 

[iLight]

I don't juggle as you say, my current strategy with sheik especially vs lucario is to go in, get 1-4 hits at most usually then retreat then approach again or let him come to me if I have percent lead. PS AS i don't usually punish, just like you said, because its a frame trap. Like i said generally i'm either slowly moving backwards and PS or standing and doing so. Generally i punish OOS or get a grab to get in those quick hits, I don't go for juggles because like you said lucario's dair is very dangerous. As long as I can get properly shield moves like f-tilt, f-smash, jabs, etc. while approaching I can fairly easily punish OOS from there. If they use aerials its a bit harder, some of them being very difficult to outspace with sheik such as fair and dair like you say, but if i'm patient and space well i can easily be grounded etc. to punish those as well.

As far as frigate goes, at least for me, like I said i love the second stage transformation, its almost identical to the flying part of halberd. Not only that, but while sheik is not really as good at walling as lucario is on the first part, she can still be very patient on the right side and if the situation permits control the left side to some extent. Both characters would have difficulty recovering in this match up if knocked off the right side going even or lower with the stage. While frigate doesn't give me as much space as I would like as FD to control my spacing, I do feel very comfortable there in this match up.

 

[phi1ny3]

Lucario actually doesn't have a big problem on the right side of the stage on the first part, and is unhoggable on all transformations of Frigate if done correctly (lucario can wallcling underneath the ledges on all transformations), the right side allows him to cancel his recovery into a wallcling, and the platform helps protect his recovery a bit against those who can't recover after edgeguarding the wallcling.
All the transformations really benefit lucario as well, the dip helps a lot with control and helps with approaching, and the first stage helps Lucario's already good gimp game.

 

[iLight]

I'm not saying lucario is bad there, or even that sheik is better there, just that myself personally i feel comfortable playing there in that match up and i listed reasons why, perhaps the walls really do help you more than they would me, but i don't really mind.

 

[phi1ny3]

I see, it's player preference.
Anywho, let's stick onto stages again.
I personally strike SV in most cases, it's like my least favorite neutral unless my character strongly outcamps others.

 

[<π]

I'd go FD verus Lucario I think. or halbred

 

[culexus・wau]

The Learning Curve on this match-up is definitely much much harder for sheik then for lucario,

but as both parties get as good as they possible can in the match-up I can see it being 45-55. [if you don't know the match-up you're gonna get rapeeeeeeeeeeeeed]

I really feel that Sheik really needs to work hard to get the 1st kill or else its hell for her, She has the tools to put really nice pressure and play a good hit and run game but ultimately it comes down to that 1st stock imo.

For stages I would personally avoid areas that give Lucario more time to live. Places with low ceilings and Small boundaries are the best, Halberd is usually the ban for this match-up and ircc brinstar isn't the best sheik stage :/

Stick to your preferences for this match-up.

The Neutral-ish Areas [YI,Lylat, PS1, Castle Siege] can give you slight advantages if you know the layout better.

 

[phi1ny3]

Yeah, don't do japes as sheik (unless sheik has some broken mechanic there that I'm not aware of).

 

[<π]

she can kill herself very well there. but Most characters can do that...

Japes is a bad sheik stage. turns her killing problem into a killing nightmare. I'd rarely ban it but I'd never CP it.

 

[phi1ny3]

I agree with FWK, if MK is a 40:60, lucario is probably pretty even at 45:55 disadvantage, merely because lucario can afford to play this MU a little more on his strengths than sheik, but sheik still can dish out some good punishment.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Needles work well in making some openings. Sheik can needle camp somewhat well and IMO, can out camp Lucario with them.

I used to play Shiek/Zelda before for a bit so I do know a little bit about this MU. Lucario's floaty nature puts some trouble with Shiek in the air and with the tilt lock, it ends earlier. This MU is much earier if Shiek can force Lucario to approach. Shield and punish will work until higher percentages when Lucario gets better shield stun.

On the ground Shiek has a much easier time punishing Lucario. I've found Dash attack, jabs, ftilt, were good punishing options. On Lucario's side I'd rather approach from the air unless your trying jabs or Ftilt, even Lucario's Ftilt is a bit sketchy on how safe it can be.

Still I find that Lucario's range is a problem for her. Granted at earier percentage the range is a bit more manageable and he can't camp Aura sphere, camping with aura sphere is LOL. This is mitigated by his better air game and the aura buff helping his moves become slightly safer and improve his kill power. Shiek on the other hand has some trouble killing outside of Upsmash, which makes Lucario happier when he can live longer.

At worst I can say this is 45:55 Lucario for Shiek, granted I still think this is a 40:60 if Lucario plays like a smart Lucario and not a dumb like mine has. (I've lost to Shiek/Zelda's in tournament a few times)

edit: If MK is rated as just a 40:60 then wither he's harder or Lucario is easier. Just put my ratio as 45:55.

 

[FrozenFire13]

How good Lucario's bair? I don't have alot, but from the experience I do have, if the Lucario has heavy focus on aerial combat, would it be unwise to dash under/behind and rise with a bair? Or would Lucarios dair punish that?

 

[Tristan_win]

she can kill herself very well there. but Most characters can do that...

Japes is a bad sheik stage. turns her killing problem into a killing nightmare. I'd rarely ban it but I'd never CP it.

I think japes is a great stage for those who main goal is to kill you off the top like snake.

 

[phi1ny3]

How good Lucario's bair? I don't have alot, but from the experience I do have, if the Lucario has heavy focus on aerial combat, would it be unwise to dash under/behind and rise with a bair? Or would Lucarios dair punish that?

Some lucario's will disagree with me, but it's pretty good to me imo. Lee's used it a lot, but the biggest things are that it's actually decently fast for it's range and speed (think Peach fair), has a nice hitbox across and above it, and while it's a vulnerable from underneath most of the time, if properly spaced and timed, it's pretty safe (except against some chars) because of it's IASA frames (think Ike fair), making it plausible SHFF material.
I think it's punishable by sheik though, but the main things I would be worried about are fair-> nair things, he can retreat nair which shuts down punishing and crossups pretty well.

 

[<π]

I thought that too against afro. snake has garunteed chain on all the plats spare the bottom level one. utilt kill at like 1 ftilt away. I think your main goal as sheik is killing as soon as possible so your opponent doesn't get damage on you. not trying to out survive them. sheik is always going to die at like half the percent of her opponent so try to use the stage to extend your life expectancy I don't feel is a wise choice.

 

[Tristan_win]

I thought that too against afro. snake has garunteed chain on all the plats spare the bottom level one. utilt kill at like 1 ftilt away. I think your main goal as sheik is killing as soon as possible so your opponent doesn't get damage on you. not trying to out survive them. sheik is always going to die at like half the percent of her opponent so try to use the stage to extend your life expectancy I don't feel is a wise choice.

meh, to each their own.