Sheikah Survival Guide: A Sheik Match-up Thread

[Metatitan]

Lol if you guys seriously think yoshi's killing is a big advantage in this matchup you are seriously mistaken.

Also yoshi camp is redonkulously easy to get past. Burntsocks got past like the campiest yoshi's campgame with FALCON. I don't think sheik would have trouble with this.

Also couldn't sheik just outcamp yoshi with needles? *did not read anything in this thread and is only here to partially troll*

 

[choknater]

metatitan: yes, sheik easily outcamps yoshi with needles

guys: i want to discuss lucario again........ lol

screw the low tiers i get off on them all day

 

[stealth3654]

If everyone is fine with rediscussing Lucario, then sure we will discuss him next.

 

[choknater]

i approve

guys let's do this

i KNOW there are better ways to beat him

we gotta collaborate

 

[Poltergust]

But... I thought this would turn into a healthy discussion. How disappointing.

 

[stealth3654]

Ok. Next on the list is Sonic.

Discuss!

 

[choknater]

lol alright

umm sonic is too fast and has erratic movement

i HIGHLY recommend knowing all of sonic's movement tricks (IMO, by learning how to use sonic) so that you are not hit by anything unexpected

this includes SH down-B shield cancel -> grab, dont fall for that stuff.

most of his movement tricks are on the ground so keep charging needles a lot. obviously he's gonna be afraid of ftilt so he's not gonna wanna be close to you, his movement is too fast for him to space accurately so most sonics are just gonna be running around and shielding a lot to try to get a good position for spinning attacks. this means u are gonna have a lot of time to charge/throw needles

besides the needles.... just wait till he gets close and fight him. its not that hard

i would say the matchup is pretty close

i dont have a lot of experience to say whose favor it's in. i would say sheik's cuz of needles but i'm biased

IMO we should invite sonic players in here (but they are really weird at debating matchups...)

 

[Leafplayer452]

Sonic....

Overview: Treat him like Marth, what I mean by that is Sonic can escape pretty much all of Sheik's combos (which I think includes ftilt? not 100% sure)

Approach: Don't, thats what the Sonic wants you to do in most cases, your better off camping and forcing Sonic to approach you

Fighting Sonic: Counter attack, read all of his spin dashes and once they moves pass you and jumps out of spin dash, use your backair

Edgeguarding Sonic: Chain, chain jacket also, and air needles work also, dont forget to edgehog

Killing Sonic: Best way is to gimp or if you see if the Sonic uses dair alot, mindgame the Sonic into a Vanish or if you can a Usmash

Recovering: Sonic will most likely try to edgehog you rather than gimp you in the air, if the Sonic is the "speedy type" which they move away from the edge once they THINK your not going to make it, try to trick them by up bing in a different direction bu still close enough to grab the edge at regular fall speed

 

[-Mars-]

I've played __X__ a couple times and the main thing in this case is knowing the matchup. I went from getting easily two stocked to nearly winning.....I just need more matchup experience lmao.

 

[choknater]

lols im pretty sure we all need experience in this matchup

i usually just think 'needles' and i usually win

imma ask the sonic mains to come help

like i said though, they are really weird..

 

[chaoechidna]

We're not weird...

The main sheik I play gets gimped pretty easily by sonic. Not sure, but the recovery is pretty predictable. With her light weight, once she's off the stage, we follow up and take her further, then gimp. But your needles are pretty amazing, i'll agree. I don't think they help a sheik win this match, but it makes it harder for us to win for sure. And I gotta agree, MU exp is important with sonic. Still, you gotta watch out, we have a lot of tricks up our sleeves...

I don't think it's 60:40 sonic. That's too much. I still think we have slight advantage due to an insane recovery. Edgeguarding us is very, very hard. I've never been edgeguarded by sheik before, i don't think chain will be that effective. Sonic would spring a little further from the chain's range then return to the stage and prob get over sheik completely. And i don't know about watching spin dash and waiting for us to jump then using back air. Doesn't our bair outprioritize yours? And isn't ours more powerful too? Not sure, my knowledge on sheik is actually pretty limited for some reason. I gotta find more sheik mains to play..

Definitely know the MU. You guys keep saying that, and it's true.

And how are we weird?

 

[Tristan_win]

I think Sheik vs Sonic is 55/45 in Sheik favor maybe 50/50 but it really depends on the stage.

Keep in mind everyone with platforms that sheik can only weakly force approach against sonic and with his good speed the range in which it's unsafe to throw then if they miss is much larger and that you will rarely land the Ftilt against sonic as good sonics typically wont land on the ground helpless. Usually when punishing sonics I find that nearly all of which happen in the air as on the ground I almost always throw needles. Although Sheik has good OoS options and can counter all of sonics mix up aerial approaches but because you lose your Ftilt you lose sheik greatest feature, her combos.

The reason why for so long I've though sheik had a very good advantage against sonic was because on stages like BF she can chain camp him very safely but a good sonic will stage strike BF and then ban it if he's smart. FD isn't smart for obviously reasons, Yoshi island they can bypass the chain using the curves on the sides to break though the chain with invulnerability kinda like DK up B, Lylat Cruise I fear could have that happen as well and smashville is just like FD but with a platform.

So really we don't have any stage advantage on the first match but neither does he. Let's say we lose where do we counter pick? Well my first thought was chain camp but BF is banned so what stage to pick.

Halberd is most likely the best choice because of it's low ceiling and long platform but roughly half the time he can beat it by going below the stage and attack from below.

Pokemon Stadium platforms don't last very long and aren't very large which make poor shields. On some parts you can camp fairly well don't get me wrong but you can't stall by camping so why wouldn't he just wait?

Delphino Plaza pretty much is a mixture of the weakness of Pokemon Stadium and Halberd, enough said.

Castle Siege, Frigate Orpheon are very good stage and has some very good platforms but they don't last forever.

Rainbow Cruise could possible be counter pick against sheik for sonic but meh.

Basically sheik can't chain camp sonic very well.

 

[Leafplayer452]

I think Sheik vs Sonic is 55/45 in Sheik favor maybe 50/50 but it really depends on the stage.

Keep in mind everyone with platforms that sheik can only weakly force approach against sonic and with his good speed the range in which it's unsafe to throw then if they miss is much larger and that you will rarely land the Ftilt against sonic as good sonics typically wont land on the ground helpless. Usually when punishing sonics I find that nearly all of which happen in the air as on the ground I almost always throw needles. Although Sheik has good OoS options and can counter all of sonics mix up aerial approaches but because you lose your Ftilt you lose sheik greatest feature, her combos.

The reason why for so long I've though sheik had a very good advantage against sonic was because on stages like BF she can chain camp him very safely but a good sonic will stage strike BF and then ban it if he's smart. FD isn't smart for obviously reasons, Yoshi island they can bypass the chain using the curves on the sides to break though the chain with invulnerability kinda like DK up B, Lylat Cruise I fear could have that happen as well and smashville is just like FD but with a platform.

So really we don't have any stage advantage on the first match but neither does he. Let's say we lose where do we counter pick? Well my first thought was chain camp but BF is banned so what stage to pick.

Halberd is most likely the best choice because of it's low ceiling and long platform but roughly half the time he can beat it by going below the stage and attack from below.

Pokemon Stadium platforms don't last very long and aren't very large which make poor shields. On some parts you can camp fairly well don't get me wrong but you can't stall by camping so why wouldn't he just wait?

Delphino Plaza pretty much is a mixture of the weakness of Pokemon Stadium and Halberd, enough said.

Castle Siege, Frigate Orpheon are very good stage and has some very good platforms but they don't last forever.

Rainbow Cruise could possible be counter pick against sheik for sonic but meh.

Basically sheik can't chain camp sonic very well.

I think the matchup is 45:55 Sonic favor, not Sheik's favor

 

[choknater]

haha sry chao

i just get weird vibes sometimes from ppl like da kid

ahah

 

[ddonaldo]

ive never played a sonic but I second sonic and vice versa with sheik who is my main so I can only say my "on paper" views.
Needles really annoy sonic's gameplay, much how shiek cant do sheik stuff against IC is the same for sonic and needles but not as great though, but it really does remove alot of sonic mindgames since needles completely stop spindash.
However sonic builds damage better than sheik in this matchup since sonic's "combos" are more legit against sheik than vice versa.
Also we dont have a reilable way to KO sonic nor is he gimpable, imo he has one of the most versitile recoveries. spring, spinshot, homing attack etc.
In fact speaking of spinshot, on most neutral stages sonic can really control the stage and can gimp us better. Also sonic could force an onstage vanish recovery and punish with fsmash at high percentages.

55:45 sonic, but no actual experience to back up. Sonic likes smashville though and we prefer battlefield

 

[Tristan_win]

I think the matchup is 45:55 Sonic favor, not Sheik's favor

and I think sheik is so much of a better character even without her tilt combos she is still better then sonic.

The lowest I would possibly go is dead even against a character that only has speed (although still slower then melee) and multiple different ways to approach most of which depending on your opponent to not respond correctly to be safe.

Also keep in mind that sheik utilt > all of sonic aerial approaches.

 

[ddonaldo]

and I think sheik is so much of a better character even without her tilt combos she is still better then sonic.

The lowest I would possibly go is dead even against a character that only has speed (although still slower then melee) and multiple different ways to approach most of which depending on your opponent to not respond correctly to be safe.

Also keep in mind that sheik utilt > all of sonic aerial approaches.

except for sonic's f-air

 

[<π]

no even sonics fair. sonci is horrible. he has no approach options and is pretty much all mindgamed silly ness. Use your eyes be paiteint sonic really can't do anything you can't punish unless you let him.

55-45 yeah right.

 

[-Mars-]

True dat <3

 

[choknater]

imo one of sonics best approaches against sheik is run -> shield grab, if u can space it right. sonic takes some **** good precision timing when u wanna do stuff out of dashes lol

his dash attack is also a good approach if u go thru someones shield, but sheik can probably punish it with her own dash attack (not sure havent tested who cares)

or just block and needle backwards

ummm

im sure sonic does have somewhat of a pressure game

but all sheik has to do is instead of blocking just throw needles that nullifies most characters' ground games, even snake/lucario

sonics air game is bad except for his spring -> dair which he can use for keep away and stuff

 

[<π]

most sonics down here abuse the crap out of dair :/

dair isn;t that good of a move even when auto canceled. Needle to punish teh landing (even auto cancled) or sheild grab it. sonic is fast and deceptive but it's all smoke and mirrors. Don't let bad characters like yoshi or sonic beat you

 

[Tristan_win]

For a while now I've always banned FD against Sonic because of how he can use it's great size but now that I think about it maaaybe it's not so bad for Sheik after all. He has to land sooner or later right?

What do you guys think?

Also while we are at it let's talk about counter picks, what do you guys think would be the 2 strongest counter picks against sonic?

...Oh and the best piece of advice I've ever receive about sonic is "Don't dodge!" meaning don't sidestep only to get bair or fsmash take the throws and if you shield get's weak plank...although it should be know his uthrows kills at like 150%+

 

[stealth3654]

Watch out for his up throw > bair/uair. If you see this coming, DI the throw.

I think Rainbow Cruise would be a good CP since for at least half of the stage spin dash is not very effective.

Battle Field would be our best place to CP Sonic. Final Destination doesn't seem too bad either. It gives him more room to run around, but we have needles.

 

[<π]

sh nair > dodges when people want to put pressure on you sonics grab range isn't that amazing so if he gets close enough to grab you sh nair or fair is a great answer. Ironically sonic is too slow to really do anything to punish these options as they come out so they are a great way to get breathing room.

I'd say FD isn't bad at all. gives you more room and him way few options making needles even more powerful.
However battlefield brinstar and to an extent lylat are good choices agianst him. Battlefield because you have huge advantages thanks to plats. it messes up his down air game, and you can presure him from below if he lands on them. the stage is smaller which makes his hit and run game a little more difficult. brinstar because sonic is horrible and can't adapt well to that stage. It's small and compact and very had for him to manuver on. get rid of the tentacles so he can't hid behind them if you need to. Lylat for reasons similar to battle feild. presure the mid plat with auto canceled uair and fair.

 

[Tesh]

...Oh and the best piece of advice I've ever receive about sonic is "Don't dodge!" meaning don't sidestep only to get bair or fsmash take the throws and if you shield get's weak plank...although it should be know his uthrows kills at like 150%+

Sonic's Uthrow won't kill until around 180+ for Sheik unless you got yourself grabbed at the top of the stage or something. DI towards his back and watch out for follow ups at any percent. Its also his most damaging throw so no one is going to bother saving it to kill you at nearly 200 percent even if you prove too evasive for Fsmash or Bair. I would expect Sonic to score kills by edgeguarding Sheik.

Also for CPs, its worth taking into account that on YI, Pictochat and Brinstar Sonic can use an invincible Spindash from either side of these stages which will go through needles and aerials/chain completely.

 

[sniperworm]

Sonic's Uthrow won't kill until around 180+ for Sheik unless you got yourself grabbed at the top of the stage or something. DI towards his back and watch out for follow ups at any percent. Its also his most damaging throw so no one is going to bother saving it to kill you at nearly 200 percent even if you prove too evasive for Fsmash or Bair. I would expect Sonic to score kills by edgeguarding Sheik.

Also for CPs, its worth taking into account that on YI, Pictochat and Brinstar Sonic can use an invincible Spindash from either side of these stages which will go through needles and aerials/chain completely.

Invincible spindash huh, that's pretty cool. How does one perform this?

 

[Tesh]

Well someone explained a theory about it that sort of ties all these techs together. I don't know if its confirmed but basically, Sonic's Side B, the one where he hops at the start is always invincible for certain frames during that hop. But the invincibility frames don't go away if those frame of the hop are cancelled by ground immediately. So any slope steep enough for Sonic to be on the ground on frame 6 after releasing Side B will cause him to roll forward invincible, he can jump out at any time and will continue to roll through the air as if there is solid straight ground under him.

So on Brinstar, if you destroy the gooey tethers on the left and right platforms, he can do this back and forth until they grow back.

You can still clank with it by using a ground move though, so use jab or ftilt or whatever, you won't win, but you will clank and from there you don't have to deal with the invincibility. Keep in mind though, he can cancel out and jump at any time, so if you do something laggy like rapid jabs, he will just jump over and kick u in the back of the head.

As far as counterpicks, I think you can do better than brinstar, although I'm not sure where. Sonic can shark under the stage better than sheik and edgeguarding sheik is alot easier on this stage. And upthrow actually WILL kill you at 150 or so this time.

 

[chaoechidna]

haha sry chao

i just get weird vibes sometimes from ppl like da kid

ahah

ahh makes sense now, haha.

 

[ddonaldo]

Sonic's Uthrow won't kill until around 180+ for Sheik unless you got yourself grabbed at the top of the stage or something. DI towards his back and watch out for follow ups at any percent. Its also his most damaging throw so no one is going to bother saving it to kill you at nearly 200 percent even if you prove too evasive for Fsmash or Bair. I would expect Sonic to score kills by edgeguarding Sheik.

Also for CPs, its worth taking into account that on YI, Pictochat and Brinstar Sonic can use an invincible Spindash from either side of these stages which will go through needles and aerials/chain completely.

what about uthrow into uair, doesnt that kill REALLY early, even uthrow to bair kills rather quickly.
But judging from the responses, this is further proof why matchups on paper mean nothing

 

[Dcold]

For a while now I've always banned FD against Sonic because of how he can use it's great size but now that I think about it maaaybe it's not so bad for Sheik after all. He has to land sooner or later right?

What do you guys think?

Also while we are at it let's talk about counter picks, what do you guys think would be the 2 strongest counter picks against sonic?

...Oh and the best piece of advice I've ever receive about sonic is "Don't dodge!" meaning don't sidestep only to get bair or fsmash take the throws and if you shield get's weak plank...although it should be know his uthrows kills at like 150%+

Hmm Sonic is a tricky one. FD i would still say to ban because Sonic can control the stage easily. I'd recommend Brinstar as your main CP. Possibly Sv since it is smaller and you can control better, or even YI is a maybe. I'd still say stick to Brinstar as a main counter-pick.

 

[Tesh]

what about uthrow into uair, doesnt that kill REALLY early, even uthrow to bair kills rather quickly.
But judging from the responses, this is further proof why matchups on paper mean nothing

Those kill at maybe 120 for sheik if it connects. That is assuming you don't airdodge, hit him first, or DI the throw properly(towards his back). Even with proper DI, you are still up there, in the air, and likely to be chased, but just don't react too early with an airdodge or aerial or you might get hit anyway.

Sonic's speed makes him a great tech chaser (though he doesn't have anything as solid as snake/gnw downthrow to put you in that situation) and can score kills through jab locks or just some more damage if you get caught missing a tech.

His throws won't kill you if you DI properly(DI up for back throw, back for upthrow and the others have no kill potential), but its not unreasonable to assume Sheik will take 20% each time she gets grabbed(3 damage pummel, 12 damage upthrow, fast disjointed uair). Sonic has one of the most damaging pummels and at lower percents his Upthrow will easily lead into Uair/Utilt.

If Sheik is forced to use Vanish to recover, Sonic should at least be able to get a free hit from a ledgehop. Beware the spring drop as well, it can stage spike easily or push you under the stage. A well timed autocancelled Dair will also grab the ledge.

Sonic is tough to edgeguard with so many options for recovery (he can go under, over or through stages safely, invincibility on Up B and Side B) but if you grab him out of his springjump, it works just like Snake and GnW, don't pummel, just let him go, he is done. He can still footstool you after he has used spring.

As counterpicks go, Brinstar isn't a great sonic stage, but you can't really camp sonic here. He can constantly assault from under the stage, hide from needles, blaze through the chain and any advantaged position will be taken quickly by lava every 30 seconds or so.

For a CP, you will want a stage with a solid main platform so he can't easily get under you. A stage that makes it easy on your recovery, marginalizing his gimp game. You also don't want hazards that make it easy for him to kill you earlier than normal(pictochat/delfino).

How well does Sheik do on Castle Siege?

 

[ddonaldo]

we do extremely well in the first part of CS against most characters
It is really tight so players cant outcamp us, but that ledge lets us take advantage of our agility and we can poke through the platform quite well. Also thanks to our chain, we dont have to fear the stage lips

 

[Dcold]

we do extremely well in the first part of CS against most characters
It is really tight so players cant outcamp us, but that ledge lets us take advantage of our agility and we can poke through the platform quite well. Also thanks to our chain, we dont have to fear the stage lips

On the second part of the stage, there is really nothing sonic can do that can push us off the sides if we play smart and keep all action in the middle. He can't cg us or anything so the second part is basically neutral for both of us since neither can really push the other off the side.

The third part of the stage is basically a tilting version of SV so that's not so bad for us either.

CS is probably slightly better for us than it is for you guys since the beggining of the stage we have an advantage and the rest is neutral.

 

[<π]

Sonic can't pressure shiek he is too slow. he can mind game you into damage. but if you can see through his mind games he can't do much. he can't punish needles. and close combat we win. I don't see how this could possibly be even unless you are jumping into sonics arms. Stay in a safe position and punish sonic's horrible approach options when he gets close.

 

[ddonaldo]

sonic does have very good mindgame tools though, so its easier said than done when saying done get mindgamed.
The problem though is the lack of good sonic players

 

[Tesh]

Where do you guys keep your frame data? The project know it all thread seems to be incomplete as are older threads with partial frame data. I read alot of "sonic can't punish" as far as needles, fair, nair etc. but I don't see the exact data anywhere.

Needles are alright, but that alone won't make sonic approach you. Can you cancel the aerial charging animation directly into anything but an airdodge or needle throw?

 

[stealth3654]

I don't know why our frame data disappeared, but I was able to find it: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=235758

Sheik can cancel the aerial needle charge into an aerial, air dodge, jump, specials, or needle throw.

Edit: here is another frame data thread made by Ankoku: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=178230. This one is a little more complete and it includes things like rolls, dodge, and shield.

 

[Tristan_win]

I don't trust other frame data as much as InnocentRoad.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=6159572&postcount=42

the only thing I don't go by is the 1 frame shield.

 

[<π]

sheik has to go into an 8 frame cancel animation before she can do any of those things excluding needle throw.

 

[TLMSheikant]

Toon Links are now rediscussing the Sheik Matchup at our boards. Please contribute. Thanks .